Wisdom of the ancients, true or false

[Clint Bach]

Now that I'm becoming the ancient one, I'm recalling wisdom from the ancients who came before me.

one word (or sentence) from the ancient ones drifted to the surface as I was planing an edge a moment ago. "Don't pull the plane backwards with the sole down, lift it a little." Supposedly dragging the plane backwards without lifting dulls the blade.

So... True or false. I see lots of folks just drag the plane backwards. Does it really matter?

any other "wisdom of the ancients" out there to share? Curious minds want to know!

Thanks,

clint

[Patrick Chase]

Now that I'm becoming the ancient one, I'm recalling wisdom from the ancients who came before me.

one word (or sentence) from the ancient ones drifted to the surface as I was planing an edge a moment ago. "Don't pull the plane backwards with the sole down, lift it a little." Supposedly dragging the plane backwards without lifting dulls the blade.

So... True or false. I see lots of folks just drag the plane backwards. Does it really matter?

Hang on while I get some popcorn...

I don't drag the iron backwards over the work, but I'm not sure I've ever seen this conclusively answered. Note that in any case you just need to lift the heel of the plane a tiny bit to bring the iron off the wood. No need to lift the whole thing.

[glenn bradley]

I lift a bit in the return path.

[Doug Hepler]

Clint,

I'm ancient, and I'm wise. I don't think it matters much. I think the heel comes up a bit when I pull the plane back. You should be rehoning because of the effect of cutting, long before pulling the blade backwards would have any effect on sharpness.

Doug

[Stanley Covington]

I remember reading where a workman sarcastically praised his apprentice for trying to sharpen the plane's blade by dragging it back without lifting it.

Of course, if you consider the abrasive action on the blade as it is dragged bass ackwards in contact with the wood, it seems obvious that it cannot improve things, but only accelerate dulling. How much would be difficult to measure.

[Jim Koepke]

There are two ways to look at this question.

A lot of old planes that have come my way have more wear on the toe than anywhere else. My observation has led me to the belief the old timers lifted the heel of the plane and drug the toe.

Another way to look at it is as long as the person dragging the blade backwards across the work is observant enough to know when to sharpen and then takes care of the sharpening, it isn't my problem.

Often having seen Roy Underhill and others dragging a molding plane back on the work my desire to imitate the 'master(s)' didn't end well. So now instead of trying to match speed, it is my desire to at least match the quality.

So my plane blades are lifted off of the work most of the time.

This is even more important to me with a bevel up plane since getting rid of a wear bevel on the back of such a blade is a PITA.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I don't worry about it. :)

[Clint Bach]

I noticed Roy underhill dragging the planes backwards with the blade down too. The sound a plane makes when dragged backwards with the blade down is different. I hear a few extra clicks. Your mileage may vary. The sound may be the blade tapping the ends of the cut?

clint

[Metod Alif]

Dragging makes sure that the clearance angle does not increase. For faster results grind and hone/strop at the bedding angle.

Best wishes,
Metod

[Warren Mickley]

Believe it or not there is a pretty good group of people who are afraid to strop a plane iron on leather, for fear of "dubbing", then procede to raise the iron up 15 degrees or more and rub it backwards with pressure on the wood as they plane.
For my own planes I strop with clean leather and lift the plane on the back stroke.

[Pat Barry]

Dragging the plane backward might be the primary reason for the wear on the primary bevel for a BD plane.

[steven c newman]

Maybe it is the reason why a lot of the old planes are so worn on each end? Some would lift the rearend, some would lift the front end.....spread out over a few decades....


Since mine get shoved along at a slight skew, I usually just lean the plane to one side...or, just lift the plane off the wood completely...YMMV

[Clint Bach]

Hmmm...

leaning the plane over on one side is a new one on me. The ancients never mentioned that to me.

good alternative. I'll try it.

clint

[mike holden]

Tilting the plane slightly on the return stroke is how I was taught. My instructor had "suffered his apprenticeship" in England (his words) so perhaps that's a British thing.
Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

I lift. If not then you’re using your board to strip just the very tip of the iron at 45 degrees. Certainly accelerates wear.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't worry about it. :)

Me neither!

Mike

[James Pallas]

Fore plane, jack plane I lift and let the toe ride the work. Jointer, smoother I lift all off the work. I've found that if you let the toe ride with a jointer or smoother you will need to plane more to remove small crushed areas. I would stress that this is in most cases. The wood you are working can make a big difference, such as letting the toe ride on red cedar. That can be a "crushing" experience.
Jim

[michael langman]

Now I can answer the question of how much metal is removed by dragging something back instead of lifting it.

I bought a grinding vise in 1991 that was made out of O1 tool steel hardened to 59-60 Rc.
I used that vise for 13 years every day grinding tooling on a surface grinder with a 6" x 18" browne and sharpe grinding chuck. The chuck did not demagnetize the grinding vise. It used a mechanical lever to turn the magnetism on and off on the chuck.
After the chuck was turned off, I would grab the grinding vise with two hands on the top of the vise, and slide the vise towards me, picking it up at the same time.
I was told by another toolmaker that I was going to wear the bottom surface of my grinding vise out of flatness removing it that way. And also wear the surface of the grinding chuck. I was suppose to grab the grinding vise and tilt it onto it's long edge and lift it off the chuck. The grinding vise and the part in it being ground weighs between 8-15 pounds depending on the size of the part being ground. I chose to slide it off the chuck, and regrind my vise, and the grinders chuck as needed.

It took 13 years to wear the bottom surface of my grinding vise .0002 of an inch along the front edge of the grinding vise underneath the solid jaw of the vise, going back about 1/4" from the edge. Lifting the vise off of the magnetic chuck the worn surface would swipe the edge of the chuck on the grinder.

[Jim Koepke]

It took 13 years to wear the bottom surface of my grinding vise .0002 of an inch along the front edge of the grinding vise underneath the solid jaw of the vise, going back about 1/4" from the edge.

How many times a day did you do this operation?

How many passes a day would someone do a similar operation with a plane?

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Now I can answer the question of how much metal is removed by dragging something back instead of lifting it.

I bought a grinding vise in 1991 that was made out of O1 tool steel hardened to 59-60 Rc.
I used that vise for 13 years every day grinding tooling on a surface grinder with a 6" x 18" browne and sharpe grinding chuck. The chuck did not demagnetize the grinding vise. It used a mechanical lever to turn the magnetism on and off on the chuck.
After the chuck was turned off, I would grab the grinding vise with two hands on the top of the vise, and slide the vise towards me, picking it up at the same time.
I was told by another toolmaker that I was going to wear the bottom surface of my grinding vise out of flatness removing it that way. And also wear the surface of the grinding chuck. I was suppose to grab the grinding vise and tilt it onto it's long edge and lift it off the chuck. The grinding vise and the part in it being ground weighs between 8-15 pounds depending on the size of the part being ground. I chose to slide it off the chuck, and regrind my vise, and the grinders chuck as needed.

It took 13 years to wear the bottom surface of my grinding vise .0002 of an inch along the front edge of the grinding vise underneath the solid jaw of the vise, going back about 1/4" from the edge. Lifting the vise off of the magnetic chuck the worn surface would swipe the edge of the chuck on the grinder.
Let's assume the vise weighed 15 lbs. I bet the surface area of the base was at least 5 sq in ( probably much more ). The pressure involved was about 3 psi or less. Now take a plane blade 2 in wide with .010 inches of contact with the wood. That's .02 sq inches or less. Let's say the plane weighs 5 lbs. Thats 250 psi minimum. I'd say the wear on the plane blade is significantly higher. Now factor in the distance dragged and the frequency of occurrence and that little plane blade takes a beating by comparison.

[Stanley Covington]

Believe it or not there is a pretty good group of people who are afraid to strop a plane iron on leather, for fear of "dubbing", then procede to raise the iron up 15 degrees or more and rub it backwards with pressure on the wood as they plane.
For my own planes I strop with clean leather and lift the plane on the back stroke.

Sound logic. Excellent technique.

[michael langman]

Jim, I was just trying to give an idea of the amount of wear put onto a piece of steel being rubbed across a surface. The metal of the plane is not even hardened, so two operations are not the same. Just similar.

[Jerry Olexa]

I echo Mike and Lowell....Don't worry about it....