Using 8/4 by10"-22" wide by 8'-10' long pine planks for flooring: Issues?-advice!

[Oak Ragette]

Hi!
I have about 900 Sq Ft of 10/4 Loblolly pine planks drying (will be kiln dried to 6-9% before finishing), that range from 10" to 24" wide, and lengths from 8' to 10' long. We are building a small (not tiny, just small) house that has about 600 Sq Ft on the first floor that I'd like to use these planks for the flooring. (I know the limitations of pine endurance on the floor, so no need to remind me of them. :)

Ideally I want to finish them to 8/4, then T&G, then glued, using the full 8' and 10' lengths as a floating floor...... Basically create enough 10" for one run, then a set of 14", or 22" etc etc. I do not want to standardize the width.

Am I crazy? I was hoping the 8/4 thickness and the floating would help reduce cupping etc etc. I have no issues doing more to the sub-floor if it is needed. I know how to Google but have not been able to come up with anything I'd consider good advice or straight out "DO NOT DO THIS!".

Thanks!
Oak

(yes, my real name, leaf it to me to be odd, it's a sure ringer at a party, branch out and get twiggy with it, chip off the old block, I go with the phloem, etc. I've heard them all, but try me with new ones if you dare. :)

[Peter Christensen]

Ya gots big nuts to be asking a question like that. :)

I'd be more concerned about shrinkage or expansion after installation. A 1% moisture change will move about 1/16". They will never stay perfectly flat so might as well accept and enjoy the gaps and wavy floor. To keep the width as wide as possible you could groove both edges and use plywood splines. If they are all quarter sawn the movement will be minimal. If flat sawn more.

[Bradley Gray]

+1 on using splines. Saves width and all pieces are reversible.

[Oak Ragette]

Ya gots big nuts to be asking a question like that. :)
Funny, heard it before, but do try again! :)



I'd be more concerned about shrinkage or expansion after installation.

That was why I was thinking of doing a floating floor, the glued T&G would keep it as a single panel across the whole floor. I am concerned that the weight would prevent it from sliding. Since I estimate 2.5 inches of total expansion/contraction over the year I am afraid it would just split, perhaps a slick layer under the planks to assist? Bottom line, does anyone have any info on the ability of a floating floor to mitigate the expansion/contraction? The other option is to break the room into segments to reduce the total size of each "panel" so they don't have so far to move. Or, as you said, enjoy the nooks and crannies of the ever changing floor without gluing it together.

Thanks!

[Pat Barry]

I've been scratching my acorn head a bit about this and I love the idea of the wide pine plank flooring but I do not feel that making it a floating floor is a good idea. All floating floors I have seen including the one we installed in our kitchen 20 years ago, are plywood type construction to ensure stability with seasonal changes. Of course the cost benefit of this lamination design is also substantial. I think nailing your floor down in the traditional manner is the way to go but then again because I'd be afraid of warp and twist issues, I'm not a flooring guy. I like the spline idea as well to help with the seasonal gapping that is sure to occur and I would likely want to make those splines a bit deeper than necessary just to be sure about the shrinkage that might occur. If you plan for the movement then there will be fewer surprises.

[Jim Becker]

I'll second the splines suggestion and the traditional nailing suggestion, too. (This house is entirely wide pine, albeit not 8/4) The floor WILL move. The splines are easier to deal with than doing the full T&G treatment unless you have a stout shaper and a power feeder to do the work consistently. Gaps that come and go from movement are normal over time...it's part of the look.

[Peter Christensen]

I would use screws and plugs with the screws along the centreline being predrilled tight and the rest larger to allow the boards to expand and contract. Using a washer head screws will hold the planks down the best but still let them move. This will equalize the gaps between the boards. It is the same principal as when fastening a wide tabletop to the apron. If you screw or glue it on the top will either warp or crack so you make provision to allow it to move. Your floor is no different.

Don't use any glue. There isn't anything made that can resist the movement or allow for the seasonable movement of a 22" wide board.

If you were born in Hawaii would your parents have named you Koa?

[John K Jordan]

(yes, my real name, leaf it to me to be odd, it's a sure ringer at a party, branch out and get twiggy with it, chip off the old block, I go with the phloem, etc. I've heard them all, but try me with new ones if you dare. :)

I dono, seems like it'd be a poplar name. Do you have a dog that likes to run on the beech? Bet you named him Bark. Don't know if I wood, my neighbor might get mad an hit me with a rock and my bloodwood come out. But you might be wiser than me, a ..., rats, can't think of the word..., o,sage.

We have pine floors through the entire house but the boards are about 2.5" wide, reclaimed old slow-growth heart pine, T&G, most look quarter sawn. Besides the shrinkage/expansion with wide flat-sawn pine I'd be concerned with the long term wear of the softer parts. Could look impressively rustic though! I think I would be sure it was all at EMC and well, top and bottom. If there is concrete or a crawl space underneath I'd probably look into sealing for moisture control to minimize cupping. I'd probably be tempted to rip into narrow boards.

JKJ

[Andrew Joiner]

http://ec03a91ffea871a73bec-89da30487212553173af9b2523953ad7.r55.cf1.rackcdn.c om/properties/photos/4458310_4_1452019619.jpg




Here's a photo of a kitchen I created in 1978. The floors are 1x10 ponderosa pine and natural danish oiled. It was an experiment that turned out great. After 5 years customers would swear they were original to the 1884 building. They looked even better 30 years later. I did the same floors in my current home for the floors in the lofts.

[Mel Fulks]

Andrew, that is quite appealing. And the fact that you haven't made them redo that space two more times since that one shows you have integrity ! Really like that hanging glass cabinet.

[Mike Cutler]

I've not seen boards 22" wide, but in New England it is common to find old farmhouses with +12" wide flooring.As you stated, expansion contraction will be your big issue.
If you are willing to try an alternate method for the floating floor, google Elastilon. This product would turn the whole floor into a floating surface and the Elastilon itself would act as a shear layer. It is also close cell foam, and there will be no squeaking of the floor.
I have used it twice in our house, and when we finally do the front room, I will use it again.

[Bob Falk]

don't forget to think about the effect the added thickness will have on in your floor elevation, joist height, etc. If you are putting tile or other "normal" thickness materials down in other areas you will have to account for the height differential.

[Bob Cooper]

I own a building that was built in 1900 and the ceiling/roof is 12/4 pine with splines. I’ll shoot a picture of the cross section when I can. We cut a clerestory through it and the edge is exposed

[Dave Zellers]

This would have a lot to do with where you live. If it gets really humid where you live, those 24" planks are going to expand a LOT. Is that why you want to do a floating floor? With that much thickness you don't even need a sub floor. It might be better if the planks are exposed on both sides re cupping. I'm in New England and see 20+" pine boards (7/8" thick) used as flooring but if it's installed tight in the winter they can buckle up over an inch off the subfloor in the summer because it had nowhere else to go.

If you were going to glue them together and float it you would need to leave huge gaps on the sides to allow for that much movement. It would depend on the width of the room.

I think I'm with the screws idea with elongated holes. For a 2" thick plank, you are probably looking at a 4" screw and make sure you hit the center of the joist. But you still have to allow for expansion which might mean actually installing the floor with gaps. As mentioned above, the power of that much wood expanding can't be contained. If the path of least resistance is sideways, it will push the walls right off the deck.

[Roger Nair]

I would consider ripping grooves into the underside to relieve cupping stress and have the bark side up on the boards. True story....An old carpenter told me about building bleachers at his local high school with softwood lumber, home side had bark side up and visitors got bark side down in hopes of giving visitors the experience of picking splinter from the bleacher seats.

[Bill Graham]

Oak,

First of all, welcome to the forum!

Secondly, "DO NOT DO THIS!"

Unless you live in some place like Phoenix or New Orleans where the relative humidity is pretty much the same year round this is not a good idea. The expansion and contraction in pine will leave gaps around the sides or buckle the boards if you install it in dry conditions and cut it tight. I just ran it on the woodshop widget, a 22" piece of flatsawn loblolly pine will vary around 1/2" between RH/temp of 10% and 68F in the winter and 50%/76F in the summer, pretty typical weather conditions for most of the US. I don't imagine your 600 sft. house will have large rooms but there'll probably be at least one room that's 5 boards wide or long. So you're looking at dealing with 2-1/2" of movement or 1-1/4" on each side(assuming it moves equally). That's right at the limit of what you can cover with a 3/4" base and shoe mold, anything doesn't go exactly right and you have a gap at the wall. Maybe if you glue it together and screw it in the center you might have a chance at keeping the movement relatively centered.

And then there's the cupping to deal with: You'll have a finished surface exposed to conditioned air on one side and unfinished surface on the bottom sitting on a vapor barrier. Yes, you can backcut it, screw it down in elongated holes and plug the holes but you're going to a lot of effort to try to keep the wood from doing what it naturally does. Usually the wood wins that fight. And if you do win, you have a polka-dotted floor to live with.

If you can pull it off it'll be a fantastic looking floor but I don't think the odds are in your favor.

Just my thoughts.....

[Oak Ragette]

Interesting, How did you attach them to the sub-floor/joist? From the photo it looks like the boards are not connected to each other, so I assume a good vacuum to pull the dirt out of the cracks is needed, which it sounds like there is no way around that for me, for the width I'm looking to use. Thanks!

[Oak Ragette]

Bob C, I'd be really interested in seeing that picture of the edge if you have the time. Thanks!

[Brian Holcombe]

Assuming these are all flat sawn, why not rip the rift edges off of each board to use and toss the centers? You get the best part of the boards and can still keep them randomized in width.

[Oak Ragette]

Bill G!
Hmm, if I don't do this what do I do with 900 square feet of 10/4 pine?
We live in Hillsborough, NC. We are also building an energy efficient green house so we expect to be controlling the moisture content threw the walls/floor very very tightly. My numbers for expansion came out to almost exactly what yours did, so if I'm willing to solve a 1 1/2 inch gap at the walls with something nifty, then that should not be an issue. The other issue you mentioned is cupping, I plan to have the wood in the house at least 3-4 weeks before laying it down in hopes to reduce the cupping. My main concern is splitting and Mike C mentioned Elastilon which I need to research to see if maybe using that would assist. Thanks!

[Oak Ragette]

Thanks for Elastilon info, I'll definitely research that!

[Oak Ragette]

That is a solution, I was just really hoping to use the full width, some are really beautiful, but from all the feed back it is looking like one of the more viable options. Thanks!

[Andrew Joiner]

Interesting, How did you attach them to the sub-floor/joist? From the photo it looks like the boards are not connected to each other, so I assume a good vacuum to pull the dirt out of the cracks is needed, which it sounds like there is no way around that for me, for the width I'm looking to use. Thanks!
I'm the only one to post a photo so you must be asking me, Oak.

The existing floor was cracked vinyl tile on 4/4 subfloor over 3x14 joists. I was lucky, I wanted a fast cheap solution that was an experiment, but it worked. My floor in the photo was 1x10 #2 Ponderosa Pine with solid knots. I beveled the edges and ends with a trim router just a hair. It was spaced 1/16" apart and face nailed. I used minimal nails shot in at a step angle to keep the pine from moving up. Just enough to hold the boards down flat as I held them with body weight. I mopped on Watco natural danish oil(the formula was different back in the 70's). After a few years the gaps got bigger. It may not work for everyone, but most people would say "these old original floors look beautiful". One loft area was seen on both faces so I selected the best boards for that, but I used no glue and it was a little squeaky. That was my only regret.

In my new contemporary house I used the same thing exposed on both faces in the lofts. I got lucky again as my local lumber yard let me return all the 1x10's I didn't like, including free delivery and pickup! I had twice as much pine delivered than I needed. I selected and placed every board so it could dry in a heated room a few weeks. We have dry summers here so I face nailed with no gaps. I used construction adhesive to prevent squeaks. After 13 years no squeaks and only tiny gaps. I used homemade Watco, equal parts BLO, varnish and thinner on the pine and it's gotten shiny over the years with zero maintenance except constant polishing from socks:)
As a side note:
Most of the house has exposed concrete floors steel troweled smooth. I researched and tested finishes thoroughly. I didn't want a coating that could not wear off and need recoating. Again I lucked out. I used the same equal parts BLO, varnish and thinner "Danish Oil" on the concrete. The concrete looks like one slab of dark grey polished stone!