Weird Issue with a Fiber Laser Image

[Jacob John]

I usually test engrave on anodized aluminum blanks to make sure that I like what I see, and this is twice now, with 2 different images, that the bottom of the image bows upward. It throws off the whole thing. In addition, the top left lettering seems tilted inward just slightly. In my software, everything looks perfectly lined up, so this is really concerning.

Any ideas at all?


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[Kev Williams]

Looks like you need to adjust your quadrilaterals and pincushions-- F3 menu in EZcad-- it can be fun...

[Jacob John]

Looks like you need to adjust your quadrilaterals and pincushions-- F3 menu in EZcad-- it can be fun...

Well, ‘aight, check this out, dawg. First of all, you throwin’ too many big words at me, and because I don’t understand them, I’m gonna take ’em as disrespect.




Sorry, that's the first thing to come to mind (40 Year Old Virgin quote). :D

Seriously though, you might as well have been speaking another language. I might have to call tech support because if I don't understand you, it's likely best for me not to mess with it.

[Jacob John]

Kev, is there a reason it would be doing this? I've looked for what you've suggested to mess with, but I'm not finding a whole lot on what exactly I need to try and do.

[Scott Shepherd]

Kev, is there a reason it would be doing this?

Yup. Country of origin. Should have been setup and adjusted prior to shipping. Part of the reason they are so cheap to buy.

Just one one of the adjustments you’ll have to make. Kev has lead you to the right area. There are settings that control the skew and related settings. You’ll need to engrave tests and adjust until corrected.

[Jacob John]

Yup. Country of origin. Should have been setup and adjusted prior to shipping. Part of the reason they are so cheap to buy.

Just one one of the adjustments you’ll have to make. Kev has lead you to the right area. There are settings that control the skew and related settings. You’ll need to engrave tests and adjust until corrected.

Whoa now Scott! This bad boy is a USA product. :)

Bought it pre-owned though so maybe it got a little out of sorts in shipping, though it was packed like I saw with my Trotec. The image is only very slightly off on the outer edge, but when marking or engraving, I never even noticed it. It wasn't until I ran this test image on the outer limits of the lens that I noticed it.

[Scott Shepherd]

My bad, Kev mentioned EZCAD, and that’s a knock off Chinese product of quality software. You didn’t mention you weren’t running EZCAD, so I assumed he was accurate.

What software is driving it?

[Jacob John]

My bad, Kev mentioned EZCAD, and that’s a knock off Chinese product of quality software. You didn’t mention you weren’t running EZCAD, so I assumed he was accurate.

What software is driving it?

It's Tykma proprietary, but it's some variation of Ezcad. It's more user friendly as far as I can tell, though I can't find where those setting are that Kev is referencing.

[Jacob John]

Oh WOW! You can see it big time when I trace out the largest possible marking/engraving area dimension. It bows in at the top and bottom and out at the sides. It's a good thing I'm only marking small items right now where you don't even notice it. Still, any walk-through on troubleshooting this? Kev, I hate to ask you to write a thesis, but any chance of a walk-through?

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[Kev Williams]

This is two of the adjustment menus in EZcad. This first one is accessed via F3...
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The lower area is the quadrilateral adjustments ('quadrilateral' is just a fancy name for a shape with 4 sides, and I didn't know what it was 'til I looked it up :D )

this is the 'basic' red light pointer adjustment--
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--the offset and 'scale' adjustments are so you can match the red light to the actual engraving. But the catch is, you have to get it to engrave correctly first!

What I do: I print a 100mm outline on a piece of paper with my printer. I make the square in Corel and print from that. Then MEASURE it, you want it to be exactly 100mm.
Place it on your engraving table. Now draw a 100mm square dead center in your program. Focus to the paper, this is important to keep everything accurate. Now red-light the drawn square onto the paper. Align the paper square to the red light square as best you can, I line up the bottom and left edge and start from there. Tape the paper down. This is where you'll find how far out your adjustments are. First, make some 'basic' adjustments, by changing 'scale x' and 'scale y' to get the actual size as close as possible to the paper's square. Offsetting is done later. Next is to compare your 4 sizes for curve and straightness. Me, I just fiddle with the numbers until I see something obviously change, and make note of it. It can take awhile but pretty soon you WILL get the shape corrected.

finally- once you have the shape corrected, now you need to engrave the 100mm square onto something. It should pretty much match your red light results, but measure the actual engraving to be sure, and make tweaks until it's exactly 100mm both ways, and square...

Once your satisfied, engrave a fresh square, then red light it. NOW is final tweak time, where you offset or scale the red light until it exactly traces your engraving...

Once you're finished, you'll know that you can trust that your engraving will exactly match and fit to your red light, and you'll have square squares and round circles :)

---this is assuming of course, you have a similar way to adjust your Tykma program! ;)
Now

[Scott Shepherd]

It's Tykma proprietary, but it's some variation of Ezcad. It's more user friendly as far as I can tell, though I can't find where those setting are that Kev is referencing.

"Some variation of EZCAD?". That's a frighting statement :) If it's made in the USA, then it's probably the software that EZCAD knocked off. If it's a knock off of EZCAD, then it's probably not as "Made in the USA" as you think ;)

[matthew knott]

Tkyma use ezcad software and a jcz control card ! The laser source is ipg (or maybe SPI) they have changed a few of the icons but that’s about it ! Nothing is really made in any country now! Most electronic components are made is Asia , the wire in it might have been mined in Australia, what does made in USA made actually mean ?

[Kev Williams]

Tkyma use ezcad software and a jcz control card ! The laser source is ipg (or maybe SPI) they have changed a few of the icons but that’s about it ! Nothing is really made in any country now! Most electronic components are made is Asia , the wire in it might have been mined in Australia, what does made in USA made actually mean ?
With the apparent* work ethic of today's millennial's, not much... (*not all of course, but there's a reason why Best Buy doesn't open 'til 10am ;) )

And just for good measure, even my 1976 Made in the Good Ol' U.S. of A.' Harley Davidson Sportster here--
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came fresh from Milwaukee with an Hitachi starter motor and Showa front forks-- from Japan. :D

[John Lifer]

I think tikma got source code and reworked the software. From viewing the YouTube videos, there are a number of features that are available in their version that isn't in the Chinese version. Yep, hopefully you can get to the adjustment menu....... BTW, my Ray fine was adjusted almost perfectly, I made slight adjustments but they were slight.

[Jacob John]

Thanks Kev for the tutorial! I'm going to try and adjust it tonight.

As to the EZCAD discussion, it's definitely core CAD with Tykma engineering built on top of it. There are quite a few user friendly features, at least that i can tell, that were added by Tykma for ease of use. The laser source for mine is SPI, though I think you might be able to get these with IPG sources.

And John, I have no doubt that mine was configured correctly when purchased new, Tykma has extraordinary customer service. Mine must have gotten jostled around in shipping (second hand purchase), though like I said it was packed like my Trotec was when it was shipped. :)

[Jacob John]

Ok so now I'm having serious concerns. I printed out a 100mm square using Corel, measured it and it is indeed 100mm. I draw a 100mm square using the EZCAD software, initiate the red laser outline, and it's WAY off. To get the two squares to match up to 100mm, I have to create a 110mm square in EZCAD to equal the 100mm square on the paper. This can't be right, right?

[Jacob John]

100mm Square with laser outline

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[Jacob John]

110mm square with laser outline

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[Kev Williams]

A: Are you focused?
B: What size lens you running?
C: in my 'F3 menu' pic, note at the top of the menu the 'field size'-- mine says 160mm, which is what my lens is, what's yours say? This number should match your lens, as it directly affects the output size, smaller number = larger engrave size at a particular focus distance,... so if you have a 100mm lens and 110mm is entered as the field size, you'll get results just like you're getting. Whatever the field size says, experiment and deduct 10mm from the field size and see if you get a closer match..

However- as bad as your lines are skewed, getting them to run straight may also compensate for size-

[Jacob John]

A: Are you focused?
B: What size lens you running?
C: in my 'F3 menu' pic, note at the top of the menu the 'field size'-- mine says 160mm, which is what my lens is, what's yours say? This number should match your lens, as it directly affects the output size, smaller number = larger engrave size at a particular focus distance,... so if you have a 100mm lens and 110mm is entered as the field size, you'll get results just like you're getting. Whatever the field size says, experiment and deduct 10mm from the field size and see if you get a closer match..

However- as bad as your lines are skewed, getting them to run straight may also compensate for size-


Definitely focused. My lens is the F-Theta F160mm 1064 nm M39 made by Opto5. Its scan field is 100mm X 100mm. The field size in the parameters is showing 100mm so it's correct.

Here are some more pics.

After adjusting the quad numbers.

110mm square

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[Jacob John]

100mm - These are all post adjustment pics. As you can see, the bowed edges are now right again.

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[matthew knott]

Hmmm ! I’m not sure what’s going on there ! The procedure I use is firstly to get the marking area correct , i draw a square in ezcad with center cross hairs and get it scaled and perfect straight edges ! Then comes the red light alignment. If you mark a cross in the center does the redlight return to the center of the cross , and are your galvos set to return to center or to ‘special position’?

[Scott Shepherd]

While you are adjusting things, make sure it's engraving the right size. Draw a square, engrave it, then measure it. Adjust the scaling until that's right. Then you should be all set.

[Jacob John]

Thanks Scott. I'm going to have to post some screenshots of what I'm dealing with. I really wish there was a tutorial to learn what certain settings are so I know why I'm adjusting certain areas and not others. It's much more complicated than I thought, and if I'm altering settings, I'd like to know what it does. This forum has been great for that so far.

[Jacob John]

Hmmm ! I’m not sure what’s going on there ! The procedure I use is firstly to get the marking area correct , i draw a square in ezcad with center cross hairs and get it scaled and perfect straight edges ! Then comes the red light alignment. If you mark a cross in the center does the redlight return to the center of the cross , and are your galvos set to return to center or to ‘special position’?

Hey there Matt, it's set to return to center. When you ask about marking a cross in the center, are you saying to focus the two dots, then draw a cross, laser a piece, then look to see if it returns to that spot?

[John Lifer]

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Jacob, If you look at mine, it is scaled at 86% Just scale accordingly, and keep moving it larger or smaller.

[Jacob John]

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Jacob, If you look at mine, it is scaled at 86% Just scale accordingly, and keep moving it larger or smaller.

John, when you click on the scale double arrow to the right, what numbers do you show? Mine are set to 80, and it affects scaling too.

John, this is what I'm referring to. Any video i can find, that number matches the field size, but for mine it's set at 80.

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[Kev Williams]

Those numbers are the scale factors of EACH AXIS, aka each mirror, so one adjusts ONLY the X axis, the other ONLY the Y axis!

IMPORTANT!!! notice on both your screenshots, JOHN'S machine adjustments is calling the X mirror 'GALVO 2', whereas YOUR machine is calling the X mirror 'GALVO 1' !!

It's actually just personal preference as it pertains to how you adjust-- me, I would call GALVO 1 the X simply because I always say "X" first when referring to the X-Y axis's! But my machine is actually setup with GALVO 2 as being X--

again, it's just a personal preference setting, just be aware that based on these screenshots, John's left-side adjustment in the menu changes his X axis, but your left-side adjustment in the menu changes your Y axis!

[Jacob John]

Those numbers are the scale factors of EACH AXIS, aka each mirror, so one adjusts ONLY the X axis, the other ONLY the Y axis!

IMPORTANT!!! notice on both your screenshots, JOHN'S machine adjustments is calling the X mirror 'GALVO 2', whereas YOUR machine is calling the X mirror 'GALVO 1' !!

It's actually just personal preference as it pertains to how you adjust-- me, I would call GALVO 1 the X simply because I always say "X" first when referring to the X-Y axis's! But my machine is actually setup with GALVO 2 as being X--

again, it's just a personal preference setting, just be aware that based on these screenshots, John's left-side adjustment in the menu changes his X axis, but your left-side adjustment in the menu changes your Y axis!

First, thanks for the help so far! I'm starting to think though that this might be outside of my ability to fix. I've tried all of your suggestions and cannot get it right.

I've tried tweaking all the settings including adjusting the "Field Size" under Aspect to 110. This looks like it's close to the 100mm square but then when I continue to adjust the scaling or other settings, it begins to look smaller again. It's like playing cat and mouse with the scaling. One thing I wanted to clarify, when you say to move the paper printed square to try and line it up starting with the bottom left corner, are you saying to try and match those up by moving the paper itself into where the red laser is showing?

Again, I appreciate the help so far.


This is about as close as I can get it, and I have to set the field size to 90mm. Is that not strange?

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[Kev Williams]

Bottom left corner was a starting reference point, just for visual purposes. Mine wasn't so far off so this might have been bad advice, what's more appropriate at this point is to move the paper to fit the red light. Get the red light to draw the correct size, WHERE it's drawing it can be adjusted afterward!

Also, since you're using a 100mm lens, it might also be better for you to draw up and work with a 90mm square, then you're not at the lens's limits, this might help--

-- write down or take screen shots of your settings, although since they're way off... ;)

And don't be afraid to change those 78 and 81 scale factors to 100, just do it one at a time-- it won't hurt anything, and a making a BIG change will show you WHAT'S changing- Change in big numbers till you're close, then start making smaller changes :)

[Jacob John]

I'm about to pull my hair out! :)

This is as close as I can get it. My X Axis offset it 8.5mm! What?! Field size is set to 90mm for a 100mm square? Strange. Even if I adjust the X Axis offset, it will not move any further to the right. And I took screenshots of all settings before I started adjusting this. This isn't my first rodeo!

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[Scott Shepherd]

JJ, are you talking about making the red laser match the existing laser cut? If so, you can only fine tune that in the software. If you need serious adjustments, you need to physically adjust the red dot pointer where it enters into the beam's path. There's only so much you can do with the software adjustments, if I recall correctly.

[Jacob John]

JJ, are you talking about making the red laser match the existing laser cut? If so, you can only fine tune that in the software. If you need serious adjustments, you need to physically adjust the red dot pointer where it enters into the beam's path. There's only so much you can do with the software adjustments, if I recall correctly.

Yeah, and I'm starting to think I need to reset it back to where it was and call it a day. My settings are all over the place in comparison to what I'm finding online (and through screenshots here). I'm having a tough time believing that something else isn't going on with the machine, forcing me to adjust these numbers to such extremes. The crazy thing is, my engravings/markings are GREAT until I get to a certain size then it gets bowed and distorted.

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[Scott Shepherd]

[QUOTE=Jacob John;2755656]The crazy thing is, my engravings/markings are GREAT until I get to a certain size then it gets bowed and distorted.

/QUOTE]

Well, that being said, that could very easily be the lens. Think about what that type of lens does. It takes a fixed beam area and projects it at triangular locations. The lens has to be ground to flatten the image back out to compensate for the difference in the angular projection. For the sake of simplicity and me not having to do math, let's say that the distance from the center of the lens to the table, when in focus, is 12.000". Now, step out 3 inches in X and Y. Now that 12.000 dimension is 13.000 (or whatever the math works out to be). On a normal laser, that outer edge would be out of focus by 1" now. However, the lens is ground to flatten that out and make the outer edges in focus, even though they are further away. The further you get from center on those lenses, the more distortion you will see.

That's my opinion. Will will definitely see bowing when you get to the extremes of what your lens can handle.

[Jacob John]

[QUOTE=Jacob John;2755656]The crazy thing is, my engravings/markings are GREAT until I get to a certain size then it gets bowed and distorted.

/QUOTE]

Well, that being said, that could very easily be the lens. Think about what that type of lens does. It takes a fixed beam area and projects it at triangular locations. The lens has to be ground to flatten the image back out to compensate for the difference in the angular projection. For the sake of simplicity and me not having to do math, let's say that the distance from the center of the lens to the table, when in focus, is 12.000". Now, step out 3 inches in X and Y. Now that 12.000 dimension is 13.000 (or whatever the math works out to be). On a normal laser, that outer edge would be out of focus by 1" now. However, the lens is ground to flatten that out and make the outer edges in focus, even though they are further away. The further you get from center on those lenses, the more distortion you will see.

That's my opinion. Will will definitely see bowing when you get to the extremes of what your lens can handle.

What makes this more complicated is that I can adjust multiple settings within this console and achieve the same result. Does it matter? I can find so little documentation out there for these settings. For instance, I can adjust "Offset X" and "Offset Y" under Field settings and "Offset Pos X" and "Offset Pos Y" under Red Light pointer and they do similar things. The only settings that I fully understand at this point are the quad settings (that help straighten the shape back to square). It's the square dimensional settings that are really throwing me off.

[Jacob John]

Ok so I switched everything back with the exception of the quad settings which now give me straight lines. What negative effects could I be dealing with? When I outline the image, it marks fine with no noticeable bowing now. And since I use the outline red pointer mode, I can see exactly where the engraving is going. I'm calling customer support tomorrow, but I'm not sure it'll get fixed tomorrow and I have pending orders. So what's my worst case?

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't know what the worst case is. These machines are really simple, mechanically. You have two things, the beam coming into the scan head, hitting the mirrors and down through the lens, which focuses it. The red dot is put into the stream via a 45 degree mirror upstream. So the actual beam and the red dot pointer aren't coming from the same place. It's not difficult at all to have the red dot pointer be misaligned with the actual beam.

You have two things. Beam and pointer. Get the beam right in your adjustments. Then make the pointer match the beam. I wouldn't suggest trying to do both at the same time. If it lasers right, then your beam is right. I have replaced the red dot pointer a couple of times, so I've had to make major and minor adjustments over the years.

I don't think there is anything wrong, from what you have described.

[Jacob John]

Thanks Scott, that's what I thought and it needs to be fully fixed, but I marked three things late last night with no issues. But the red light laser output definitely doesn't match a 100mm square like it should so there's definitely something wrong, but it lines up like it should for marking. I'm guessing that customer service is going to walk me through like everyone did in this thread, or have to send someone out. I'm technically inclined but I'm having issues getting this one fixed.

[matthew knott]

Ok your NOT doing this is the correct order and you need too.
Firstly forget the redlight pointer its not relevant for this bit
Mark a Square on the laser 100mm x 100mm will do, and get that correct in the F3 settings.
You have to mark it and measure it, repeat until its correct !
Then and only then you can go into the F3/Other/ Redlight settings, in here i normally adjust the offset first until my redlight is evenly spaced over the marked box, then adjust scale , its normaly about 1.02ish. This is due to the wavelength of the red light compared to the fiber laser. The redlight should NOT match the laser when its going round marking, it should match when you press the F2 button
Get laser marking true and Square,
Match red light to a marked square,
thats it, its easy, I can get them perfect in about 10 minutes and I mean better than 0.05 but ive done 100's
good luck

[Jacob John]

Ok your NOT doing this is the correct order and you need too.
Firstly forget the redlight pointer its not relevant for this bit
Mark a Square on the laser 100mm x 100mm will do, and get that correct in the F3 settings.
You have to mark it and measure it, repeat until its correct !
Then and only then you can go into the F3/Other/ Redlight settings, in here i normally adjust the offset first until my redlight is evenly spaced over the marked box, then adjust scale , its normaly about 1.02ish. This is due to the wavelength of the red light compared to the fiber laser. The redlight should NOT match the laser when its going round marking, it should match when you press the F2 button
Get laser marking true and Square,
Match red light to a marked square,
thats it, its easy, I can get them perfect in about 10 minutes and I mean better than 0.05 but ive done 100's
good luck

I must have completely misunderstood Kev's instructions. In my defense it's been quite a few sleepless nights filling orders from the Speedy. Bah, ok I'll try it again this evening. Haven't had a chance to call customer support anyway.

Just so I'm clear:
1. Mark a 100mmx100mm square first. You use mark contour setting to do this, marking the outline? I guess that would be the quickest way.
2. Adjust the parameters until I get a true 100mm square.
3. Then start changing the remaining red light settings?

Forgive me too, but F2 does what? I don't have the function settings in this software. F3 to me is access to the quad settings and pointer settings, etc., but it's not F3, it has a name like System Settings. F3, though it's identical to what you see, isn't on this software.

[Kev Williams]

F2 is the start button, and it's the reason the F2 button is OFF my keyboard! Stupid place for it ;)

Matt is correct on doing the engraved version first, I did mine opposite but I forgot that my basic settings were still intact before the scanhead change, so there was very little difference between the red and fiber beam marking other than WHERE the mark is put...

however, I will say that getting the curved lines straight is (imo) best done via LED first simply because of the material you can chew thru by engraving :)

[Jacob John]

Ahhh yeah maybe they learned from that because F2 does nothing for me with the fiber. Kudos to Tykma!

And I'm definitely eyeing up the square by adjusting the quad settings before I start engraving. That could get crazy otherwise.

[matthew knott]

Maybe it’s F1 , it’s what ever you need to do to get the red light running , yes F2 is normally the start marking button , my bad