Made In USA Bar Clamp

[Colton Miller]

Hello,
I have been a long time lurker of this forum but just recently became a member. I am looking into manufacturing bar clamps made completely here in the states. I think we have all had our fair share of the flexing chinese made ones. Im looking to make a 4 inch throut depth 2 foot and 3 foot model (longer if needed). The only issue is there is no competing with the chinese prices. Most likely why most USA clamp companies are no longer in business. Would you have/do you think there would be interest from people in a USA made clamp? If so, what price range would be willing to pay for one.
Much Appreciated!
Colton
PS Moderators, If this is in the wrong Sub-Forum please move it.

[Brian Henderson]

You're probably not going to find a lot of interest, I think Dubuqe Clamp is the last U.S. made clamp company around after Pony went under last year. They can't compete and most people aren't going to pay the prices for U.S. made clamps when they can get cheap Chinese crap for 1/3 the price. I mean, Dubuqe sells a 24-inch pair of bar clamps for $52.95 and you can run to Harbor Freight and get a pair for less than $20. Less if you have a coupon. Are they the same quality? No. Will they do in a pinch? Absolutely. Even Bessey makes their clamps in Germany.

[Ben Rivel]

Bessey works great for me!

[Darcy Warner]

If they were on par with old wetzlers and hargraves there should be a market. Starting to get slim pickings at auctions for good clamps.

[Martin Wasner]

after Pony went under last year.

Did they go under, or pull the plug?

[Tim Bueler]

Even Bessey makes their clamps in Germany.

Last Bessey I bought was a pipe clamp fixture...made in CHINA:(

[Jim Becker]

There would have to be something unique or extraordinary to garner any real market share for this kind of undertaking...society has truly embraced a price-centric disposition and while quality of current offerings on the market may not be the same as "back in the day", what's available is very usable and reasonably good for the prices asked. So you'll have to "find your niche". I don't honestly believe that "Made in the USA" is going to provide enough incentive by itself.

[Mark Bolton]

Where are wilton ibars made? They are some honkin clamps but spendy.

I'd gladly be interested in quality domestic but I agree with Jim that unfortunately the consumers who are looking and willing to pay are likely in the low single digit percentages of the total hobby/industry. I mean Powermatic, the supposed gold standard, doesn't make a thing and is all imported.

[Wade Lippman]

You're probably not going to find a lot of interest, I think Dubuqe Clamp is the last U.S. made clamp company around after Pony went under last year. They can't compete and most people aren't going to pay the prices for U.S. made clamps when they can get cheap Chinese crap for 1/3 the price. I mean, Dubuqe sells a 24-inch pair of bar clamps for $52.95 and you can run to Harbor Freight and get a pair for less than $20. Less if you have a coupon. Are they the same quality? No. Will they do in a pinch? Absolutely. Even Bessey makes their clamps in Germany.

I don't know if they can compete or not, but they are all I use. I tried some HF and gave them away because they just bend if you apply any pressure to them.

[Frederick Skelly]

I don't know if they can compete or not, but they are all I use. I tried some HF and gave them away because they just bend if you apply any pressure to them.

I'm with Wade - Dubuques can easily be had for $25 for a single 24" clamp. I bought a set of 10 for $229 6 months ago from The Best Things. I think they'll compete just fine. Try them and you'll see why. They are worth every dime I paid.

To Mr. Miller: First and foremost - welcome! We're glad to have you posting with us. If your clamps are good quality, I'll pay more to buy them. I dont like the feel of cheap clamps, so I have no HF clamps in my collection. (In spite of the wooden insert fix for them.)

Good luck Sir!
Fred

[Colton Miller]

Thank you for the replies, I really appreciate it!
Im looking to have two series, an aluminum series for smaller duty work, and a steel series with a very similar stiffness and load rating to Weltzler's clamps for heavy duty work. They will most likely have similar price points as well. I would also be able to make custom length and throat depth clamps if someone needs. Its great to see a company like Dubuque making nice clamps in the states. The only downfall is that they dont have a large throat depth. I will hopefully to be able to fill in that median.
Thanks!
-Colton

[Greg Parrish]

Last Bessey I bought was a pipe clamp fixture...made in CHINA:(

Yeah, they have both at HD. The German made ones are much beefier and look to be better quality.

[Peter Kelly]

Even Bessey makes their clamps in Germany.Revos / Jr. clamps are actually assembled in USA I think from German parts.

Not woodworking per se but Kant Twist's (http://clampmfg.com/kant-twist) and Wright Tool (http://www.wrighttool.com/pub/default.asp?catalog=0&title2=Clamps&oid=%7BD9BD8665-FF1F-11D3-8B5D-00A0C942294E%7D) C clamps are also made in USA.

[Patrick Curry]

Quality will get you so far. Brand image...there's your profit.
Clamps are hard to glamorize but I'd have said the same thing about coolers But look at Yeti selling $200 ice boxes. Yes, the beer is still cold Sunday morning but it was Yeti's marketing skills that built the perceived value

[Randy Viellenave]

Aloha Colton, AS others have stated, you'll need to find a niche market. Many who have used HF clamps will save up and buy some good ones. My thought to add is for the space conscious with really small shops... If the clamp and the bar were sold separately, then you could just get a bunch of clamps mechs then a bunch of bars of various lengths. It would save me a whole bunch of space. I have some 24" Dewalt clamps that work well and have decent sized faces, but sometimes they are just too long or too short. Since They take so much space, I won't go buy larger clamps until I really need them, but if I could just get a 36" bar for the Dewalts, I would have 6 of them in a drawer.

[Brian Tymchak]

Im looking to have two series, an aluminum series for smaller duty work, ....

Just a rank amateur, but FWIW, I can't imagine buying a clamp made from aluminum. I have some 12" JET steel bar clamps that I use a lot and they bend under clamping pressure.

[Edwin Santos]

I'm not sure I understand why it makes any difference where a product is made. It seems to me that every product stands on its own in terms of price and quality.

The notion that all or most products from a given country are good or bad is kind of an antiquated idea that may have had some merit before we became a interlinked global economy.

Plus it's increasingly hard to associate a product with any one country when the raw materials may come from a handful of places, the assembly may happen in one place, the packaging in another, the distribution in yet another, the engineering in another, the capital financing from somewhere else, etc.

If you have a business plan where you believe you can produce a clamp (your definition of) Made in the USA and do so on a competitive basis, then my hat's off to you. My belief is that only a handful of dinosaurs would attribute anything to the Made in the USA differentiation when it really comes time to buy.

[glenn bradley]

Last Bessey I bought was a pipe clamp fixture...made in CHINA:(

There are Besseys made in different countries depending on product line. Home Depot Besseys around here are all China, Rockler Besseys are Germany, etc.

[Wade Lippman]

Just a rank amateur, but FWIW, I can't imagine buying a clamp made from aluminum. I have some 12" JET steel bar clamps that I use a lot and they bend under clamping pressure.

It is more the shape than the material.

[Jim Becker]

Just a rank amateur, but FWIW, I can't imagine buying a clamp made from aluminum. I have some 12" JET steel bar clamps that I use a lot and they bend under clamping pressure.
Aluminum is a very strong, but still light-weight material and if products made from it are designed well, they will perform just as well as products made from other materials...within the expected parameters that thickness and length attribute to the product.

[Colton Miller]

The Aluminum clamp will be utilizing all Aircraft Grade materials. There wont be any cast aluminum. The idea behind the aluminum series is that it'll be easier to move around and for someone who doesnt need a clamp capable of 2000-3000 lbs of force. Trying to position a long steel clamp can be a pain sometimes. Thank you for all of the replies and opinions thus far! I am more than happy to hear any constructive criticism.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I'm not sure I understand why it makes any difference where a product is made. It seems to me that every product stands on its own in terms of price and quality. .... My belief is that only a handful of dinosaurs would attribute anything to the Made in the USA differentiation when it really comes time to buy.

Well said.

Some folks associate "Made in the USA" with high-quality. Personally, my experience is that products which proudly proclaim "Made in the USA" are generally beefy, brutish, but lacking in refinement, human factors engineering, usability, etc. I have a pressure washer hose reel like this - completely unnecessarily oversized bearings, steel, and hardware, and something simple like the screw that locks the reel from rotating is so poorly designed as to be unusable. It's like they try to compensate for being poor designers/engineers with sheer brute strength.

Consider why brands like Festool succeed. While high-quality, it's not "drive over it with a truck" strong. It's exceedingly ergonomic, though. More "smarts" than "brawn" go into their products, and the price reflects how the market seems to value that.

Personally, it sounds like you have ideas for beefiness, but no ideas around how to make the clamp better, otherwise. Making things more massive (without adding complexity) is work ideally suited for being done in low-labor-cost markets...

[Peter Christensen]

Colton I wish you well in your endeavour but as a former aircraft mechanic and quality control inspector in an aerospace machining plant a statement of "Aircraft Grade" like "Military Grade" bugs the snot out of me. That specifies nothing because the same alloys can be used in aircraft, boat and commercial applications. It is just a marketing phrase. You'll do better, in my opinion, by stating the alloy and it's heat treat designation. 7075 -T6 or 2024-T3511 or 6061-T6 are all "aircraft grade" but 2024 T3511 is stronger than the 6061-T6 but weaker than 7075-T6. So to me knowing what the alloy is, is better than a marketing catch phrase. Anyone wanting to know more can then search the alloy. I would also bet you are not actually going to be using aircraft certified materials because of the much higher cost.

That kind of turned into a mini rant.

[Mike Henderson]

I have a bunch of the older steel I-beam clamps but I seldom use them because it makes the glue-up too heavy. After I put some work in clamps, I usually want to set it aside, which means that I have to pick it up.

I use the Bessey clamps because they're lighter. The beams are aluminum but they don't flex excessively.

Mike

[Colton Miller]

Colton I wish you well in your endeavour but as a former aircraft mechanic and quality control inspector in an aerospace machining plant a statement of "Aircraft Grade" like "Military Grade" bugs the snot out of me. That specifies nothing because the same alloys can be used in aircraft, boat and commercial applications. It is just a marketing phrase. You'll do better, in my opinion, by stating the alloy and it's heat treat designation. 7075 -T6 or 2024-T3511 or 6061-T6 are all "aircraft grade" but 2024 T3511 is stronger than the 6061-T6 but weaker than 7075-T6. So to me knowing what the alloy is, is better than a marketing catch phrase. Anyone wanting to know more can then search the alloy. I would also bet you are not actually going to be using aircraft certified materials because of the much higher cost. That kind of turned into a mini rant.

Peter, I agree with your mini rant. As an ME it bugs me as well, I just used it since most people know the term generally refers to a higher grade of aluminum. I will be utilizing 6061-T6511. I wouldn’t mind bumping up to 2024-T3511 but there is added cost as well

[Peter Christensen]

Thanks for clearing that up. Are you willing to put up a few pictures of your clamps at this time?

[Colton Miller]

Well said. Some folks associate "Made in the USA" with high-quality. Personally, my experience is that products which proudly proclaim "Made in the USA" are generally beefy, brutish, but lacking in refinement, human factors engineering, usability, etc. I have a pressure washer hose reel like this - completely unnecessarily oversized bearings, steel, and hardware, and something simple like the screw that locks the reel from rotating is so poorly designed as to be unusable. It's like they try to compensate for being poor designers/engineers with sheer brute strength. Consider why brands like Festool succeed. While high-quality, it's not "drive over it with a truck" strong. It's exceedingly ergonomic, though. More "smarts" than "brawn" go into their products, and the price reflects how the market seems to value that. Personally, it sounds like you have ideas for beefiness, but no ideas around how to make the clamp better, otherwise. Making things more massive (without adding complexity) is work ideally suited for being done in low-labor-cost markets...
It really is a fine line between ergonomics and overkill on the hardware. I think 95% of the battle is simply using quality parts in the first place so you dont need to overkill it to make up for a lack somewhere. Festool products are amazing, they definitely put a lot of thought into their products and it shows through all of the little things. They do have a premium that comes with it but the market supports it like you said. I dont intend on making a massive clamp when in reality there is no need. I am about to entire the prototyping phase with my current design and I'm sure improvements will be made through that process.

[Colton Miller]

I am about to start making prototypes. I have the prints and models finished but I won't post anything until I have it all lined out and ready for a production run.

[Pat Barry]

I am about to start making prototypes. I have the prints and models finished but I won't post anything until I have it all lined out and ready for a production run.
Good luck. Hope it all works out well for you. Keep us posted.

[Bob Grier]

The "aircraft grade" bugs me too. I have read that labor intensive manufacturing is moving away from China to lower labor cost countries. I have also read that China manufacturing can furnish just about any quality that is specified. It seems to me that if the quantity of clamps you want to order for a run is large enough to employ robots, then you might be able to compete anywhere you can find the robot manufacturer including the US. If it will require hand labor, then the quality can be assured by specifications and quality assurance in a low labor cost country. So if the clamp is going to require hand labor then it might be to your advantage to look into low labor cost country. The product should stand on its own but don't overlook marketing. It is very important.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

One problem is the Chinese are notorious for cutting corners. Although a company may specify a certain grade of material unless they have qualified inspectors on site that may not be what they get.

[Peter Kelly]

Seems to be why 99% of what comes from there is still just straight-up garbage.

[Mark Bolton]

I'm not sure I understand why it makes any difference where a product is made. It seems to me that every product stands on its own in terms of price and quality.

I agree and this is a position I have long taken. Its not an issue that Chinese products are bad by default. But thats the way the U.S. consumer has looked at it for the last 20 years as opposed to the actual facts of the situation which is that China produces exactly what its told to produce from greedy corporations based all around the world and in the US. They, and other Asian countries, can produce whatever we are willing to pay them for, its not their fault that we capitalize on their willingness to wrap a bag of dog poop in the shape of a bar clamp and sell it to us at HF.



My belief is that only a handful of dinosaurs would attribute anything to the Made in the USA differentiation when it really comes time to buy.

US manufacturers can make equally as much junk as imports but while it may not be accurate across the board, made in the US more often than not equates to a corporate philosophy that is very much different than that of the corporation who is willing to do anything and everything possible with a focus solely on profit. Not on their employees, their community, and so on. I dont think its being a dinosaur to remember back to the days when large manufacturers were part of the community. They employed large percentages of entire towns. While profits were always, and will always be, the main motivation for any business they look at their employees and community as family as well as financial assets(or liabilities) to their business. Its not an outdated concept. Look at simple advertising like My Pillow where the guy starts a manufacturing facility in his home town and is proud to admit that he is an active part of his home town community.

Thats I guess what many of us "dinosaurs" (heh funny Im only 50) think of when we think of domestic products. The cost is going to be more due to safe workplace, employee protection, higher overhead, somewhat environmentally regulated, and so on, but the quality is 9 times out of 10 going to smoke the import.

[Wade Lippman]

One problem is the Chinese are notorious for cutting corners. Although a company may specify a certain grade of material unless they have qualified inspectors on site that may not be what they get.
Oh, and other countries don't do that!?!?
The fellow responsible for the Volkswagen/Diesel fraud finally went to prison. Should have sent everyone involved to prison

[Mark Bolton]

Oh, and other countries don't do that!?!?
The fellow responsible for the Volkswagen/Diesel fraud finally went to prison. Should have sent everyone involved to prison


Spot on. In the case of the Chinese you cant actually blame them for trying to wring every cent out of companies who are going in there and knowingly exploiting the situation while the Chinese business owners are screwing their own people into the ground to get rich. I have always found it interesting that we in the U.S. learned the pitfalls of the industrial revolution the hard way. We learned that when we shaft our workers we wind up with unions that spiral out of control and drive costs through the roof. We wind up with OSHA regulations that spiral out of control and drive costs up. We wind up with workers compensation policies that spiral out of control and drive costs up. On, and on, and on rather than just being honest and responsible businesses. And now, we are shafting another nation down the same path (and hitching our horse directly to them). Doesnt anyone think that in time China environmental regs, workplace safety regs, employee injury regs, are not going to be implemented? And then what? We look for the next cheap source for goods? There arent many more left lol.

The one I remember the most is the Foxconn factory in China having to implement catch nets around the perimeter of their facility building IPhones for apple. The nets were called "Nets of Love". The enslaved workers, who are kept within the facility and work to have their room and board, food expenses at the cafeteria, laundry expenses, clothing, shoes, and so on, taken directly out of their pay and paid to "the company store" (remember the coal wars here in the US where the coal industry enslaved entire towns and charged them for housing and food leaving them with nothing to ever get out and find better work). The catch nets were installed around Foxconn because it was such a great place to work that workers were throwing themselves out windows, off the roof, any way they could because life in the plant building Iphones was such a rewarding career.

[David T gray]

its okay foxxconn is moving to another third world wisconsin

[Edwin Santos]

US manufacturers can make equally as much junk as imports but while it may not be accurate across the board, made in the US more often than not equates to a corporate philosophy that is very much different than that of the corporation who is willing to do anything and everything possible with a focus solely on profit. Not on their employees, their community, and so on. I dont think its being a dinosaur to remember back to the days when large manufacturers were part of the community. They employed large percentages of entire towns. While profits were always, and will always be, the main motivation for any business they look at their employees and community as family as well as financial assets(or liabilities) to their business. Its not an outdated concept. Look at simple advertising like My Pillow where the guy starts a manufacturing facility in his home town and is proud to admit that he is an active part of his home town community.



Mark, I completely understand your point, I was just trying to say it would only be the exceptional, outlier customer that would willingly pay more because something was "Made in USA", at least in the present day. I think it might be dangerous to put out a product with the hope that being made in the USA would be a meaningful marketing advantage.

Unfortunately, it's harder for companies to live by the social responsibility ethics you're describing if they're publicly traded or financed by private equity and venture capital groups where financial performance is the only criteria that matters. Sorry if the term dinosaur came off badly, it was my way of saying some of the old time corporate philosophies and domestic advantage seem on the way to extinction.

[Edwin Santos]

Doesnt anyone think that in time China environmental regs, workplace safety regs, employee injury regs, are not going to be implemented? And then what? We look for the next cheap source for goods? There arent many more left lol.



A lot of people, myself included, believe the next "cheap" source of labor will be a massive migration to automation, namely robotics and AI. These technologies have the potential to reduce the labor cost component of manufacturing lower than the cheapest country by a wide margin. Think about it, no medical or other benefits, no holidays, no employment regulations, no management, no errors. Productivity could be 24/7. China will be too expensive (although maybe they'll be manufacturing the robots!).

It's mind boggling what many thriving domestic manufacturers are already doing with robotics. Just look at the YouTube videos on the Amazon fulfillment centers and the Tesla factory.

[jack duren]

One problem is the Chinese are notorious for cutting corners. Although a company may specify a certain grade of material unless they have qualified inspectors on site that may not be what they get.

So are Americans...If many can get two for the price of one USA product there you are. Sounds like a "woodworking show" doesn't it.....

[Mike Henderson]

So are Americans...If many can get two for the price of one USA product there you are. Sounds like a "woodworking show" doesn't it.....

One difference is that if you cheat in the US and get caught, it will probably cost you. That is, customers and consumers are likely to bring suit and the government may charge you with a crime. In China, not so much - so the risk of cheating is not as great.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

Sorry if the term dinosaur came off badly, it was my way of saying some of the old time corporate philosophies and domestic advantage seem on the way to extinction.

Thanks Edwin. I appreciated this clarification.

Best regards,
Fred

[William Fretwell]

Your casual post question does not inspire the confidence that you can do what you dream. Asking what we would pay is not how it's done without seeing a product.
Have you ever taken any product to market? Do you know how deep your pockets need to be?

Saving us all from bad clamps because they are made in the USA is rather amusing.

[jack duren]

With the high demands of hand and power tools from amateur to professional, many bought the best and the cheapest during the 90's and current. Professionals were actually no better than hobby woodworker.

[Mark Bolton]

I would agree fully with advancing technology. Seeing what google is doing with Boston Dynamics is often eerily mind blowing.

No worries about the dinosaur.. I don't mind that title at all.

I do think though that likely in at least my lifetime there are going to be many many products that due to scale, margin or whatever that will still be manufactured old old school so to speak.

[Larry Edgerton]

The next time you are driving your Prius home from Harbor Freight consider this:

http://viewzone.com/sixteenships.html

[Steve Demuth]

I do think though that likely in at least my lifetime there are going to be many many products that due to scale, margin or whatever that will still be manufactured old old school so to speak.

I doubt the "many, many" part. It's already the case that for parts made in lots greater than a few thousand, "no-hands" automation is cost effective anywhere workers are paid a living wage. Assembly economics lags that, and has been where the low-cost of Asian labor still wins big. But that won't last long. You mention Google and Boston Dynamics, but China's R & D is in a mad rush to fully roboticize their industries.

How small or specialized an "operation" needs to be to be immune is an interesting question, but think about this - the most demanding (of thought, flexibility and adjustability), dexterous, and variable task most assembly workers in this country do each day is get themselves reliably and on time from their home to the factory - and we are within a few years or a decade of being able to custom automate that for ever individual.

The times, they are a changin'.

[cody michael]

If I was looking at 2 products, one is made in USA and 1 is not. If the price is even close maybe 10-20% I buy the made in America. Almost everyone I know is the same way, not necessarily for the quality but to keep jobs in America.

Most my clamps are from harbor freight, there aluminum clamps are actually pretty nice and I can afford the 10-15$ for them, I can;t afford the $50+ some of the nicer clamps charge, they both hold wood together. The only time I have had a bad joint is because I have not prepared the wood properly. I don't think any hand clamp could have force it shut.

This is what you need to compete against. Bar clamp, for 15$ you can always use a 20% off coupon and get a free tape measure etc while there.

https://www.harborfreight.com/48-in-aluminum-bar-clamp-60540.html

They also have F-style clamps but I never used them.

https://www.harborfreight.com/60-in-aluminum-f-style-bar-clamp-60673.html

If you can make a made in America clamp that is as good or better quality for under 20$ I would buy a few, if they are 50+ I'll need to stick with my chinese ones and buy other Made in America when possible.

[Peter Kelly]

The next time you are driving your Prius home from Harbor Freight consider this:

http://viewzone.com/sixteenships.htmlExcellent point. The pollution from the "residual" fuel that most container ships burn is pretty horrific ("residual" is just a hair away from asphalt). 1 large container ship = approximately 50 million cars worth of CO2 & sulphur. https://www.wired.com/story/container-ships-use-super-dirty-fuel-that-needs-to-change/

Those "cheap" foreign clamps at Harbor Fright will be terribly expensive for future generations...

[Mark Bolton]

Excellent point. The pollution from the "residual" fuel that most container ships burn is pretty horrific ("residual" is just a hair away from asphalt). 1 large container ship = approximately 50 million cars worth of CO2 & sulphur. https://www.wired.com/story/container-ships-use-super-dirty-fuel-that-needs-to-change/

Those "cheap" foreign clamps at Harbor Fright will be terribly expensive for future generations...

The masses have made it clear that they dont care about the implications of cheap goods. Hence their prevalence.

[Mike Henderson]

I wonder what fuel navy ships (non-atomic) use. Anyone know? Is it bunker fuel, also?

Mike

[Peter Kelly]

http://greenfleet.dodlive.mil/energy/great-green-fleet

I'd imagine they don't use residuals either.

[Adam Herman]

the thing you are missing here, is that a large container ship is actually quite efficient when you look at a per ton mile basis. much better than trucks.

to compare you have to get the same units on your numbers.

[Peter Christensen]

.....and the truckers drown when they open the window to throw out their jug of pee!

[Peter Kelly]

There aren't any land vehicles that use No. 6 / Bunker C for fuel. When you also factor in (common) oil spills, bilge, raw sewage discharge, solid waste in the ocean, nitrogen oxide, sulphur oxides, CO2 into the atmosphere etc, any environmental efficiencies of ocean freight is far negated by all the other factors. Ocean shipping emissions account 17% of global CO2 annually. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2015/569964/IPOL_STU(2015)569964_EN.pdf

[Pat Barry]

If I was looking at 2 products, one is made in USA and 1 is not. If the price is even close maybe 10-20% I buy the made in America. Almost everyone I know is the same way, not necessarily for the quality but to keep jobs in America.

Most my clamps are from harbor freight, there aluminum clamps are actually pretty nice and I can afford the 10-15$ for them, I can;t afford the $50+ some of the nicer clamps charge, they both hold wood together. The only time I have had a bad joint is because I have not prepared the wood properly. I don't think any hand clamp could have force it shut.

This is what you need to compete against. Bar clamp, for 15$ you can always use a 20% off coupon and get a free tape measure etc while there.

https://www.harborfreight.com/48-in-aluminum-bar-clamp-60540.html

They also have F-style clamps but I never used them.

https://www.harborfreight.com/60-in-aluminum-f-style-bar-clamp-60673.html

If you can make a made in America clamp that is as good or better quality for under 20$ I would buy a few, if they are 50+ I'll need to stick with my chinese ones and buy other Made in America when possible.
So really, what you are saying is that you could care less about buying American products as long as you can buy a POS from Harbor Freight. Right?

[Cary Falk]

I will buy something 2x the cost of a competitor regardless of origin if I feel it offers something more and I like it. For example, I bought some Irwin parallel clamps when HD was clearing them out. Using them aggravates me to death. I wouldn't buy them for half the price if they were made in the USA. I sold them all. I love the Jet parallel clamps. They are really expensive. I didn't check if they are made in the USA but would guess not. They will be the only parallel clamps I will buy in the future.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Hello,
I have been a long time lurker of this forum but just recently became a member. I am looking into manufacturing bar clamps made completely here in the states. I think we have all had our fair share of the flexing chinese made ones. Im looking to make a 4 inch throut depth 2 foot and 3 foot model (longer if needed). The only issue is there is no competing with the chinese prices. Most likely why most USA clamp companies are no longer in business. Would you have/do you think there would be interest from people in a USA made clamp? If so, what price range would be willing to pay for one.
Much Appreciated!
Colton
PS Moderators, If this is in the wrong Sub-Forum please move it.

Who would guess that such a simple question about the price of a bar clamp would devolve into 50-odd opposing rants on oil 'residuals' and the merits of HF tools...?:eek:

It seems clear that a wide range of price points can be supported for any given tool... With a 10sec search and scan, I see a driver-drill is available for anywhere from $19.99 (Milwaukee) to $630 (Festool, of course). If you can figure out why Festool's perceived value is 30X the low end of the market and apply that to a clamp - then you have a winner.

As for me, I have some disposable income and I could probably justify paying 2-3X the 'low-end' clamp's cost - - if this high-end clamp successfully addressed the issues I know of: high clamp force, low deflection, parallel jaws, ease/speed of adjustment, interchangeable components, good durability, ease of cleaning glue drips (and/or no detriment to the clamp action if glue does accumulate). ...These are perhaps the tangible qualities of a clamp?

What about intangibles that might improve the perceived value to 4X, 5X, or more?? Can you quickly and easily join 2 or more short clamps and make longer ones? Or, do I have to enhance your margins by buying longer bars - - AND clamp mechanisms. What other features that I haven't thought of make a good high-quality clamp - that I'd pay for?

And I just noticed I didn't consider Festool's or your clamp's country of origin as a feature. (Everybody is entitled to a living wage if they can compete globally.:cool:)

[Mark Bolton]

the thing you are missing here, is that a large container ship is actually quite efficient when you look at a per ton mile basis. much better than trucks.

to compare you have to get the same units on your numbers.

I dont think anyone would argue that a super freighter isnt the most cost effective way to get massive amounts of material across the ocean. The issue is, I will almost guarantee you that if you dont fudge the math, and the consumer or the corporation had to pay ALL the actual costs to move that material to Asia and then back to the US to the consumer, it would be far more cost effective to produce it here. But the issue, as with everything, is the math is completely fudged and bogus. The true costs are not calculated into the equation.

Its no different than a crusie ship. Some day, globally, cruise ships will be assessed a fee for dumping ALL their waste at sea which is contributing massively to waste islands formed in natural gyres in the ocean. The cost of that waste gyre is not reflected in your ticket price. If it were, the industry would be much much different (cost wise).

Fuzzy math is what's got us into this problem to begin with.

[Colton Miller]

I really appreciate all of the responses even if it has became a slight debate about fuel use haha. Through my design process I utilized FEA software to get a baseline of needed sizes/dimensions. That being said, looking at some of the cheap clamps (Irwin, hf, etc..) I find it pretty unrealistic that they would hold up to the clamping power they claim to have. Right now the aluminum clamp design will have a rated capacity of 1000 lbs (max of 1500lbs). The steel clamp wil have a rated capacity of 1500 lbs (max of 2000lbs+ if you can apply the torque). In all honesty, with good cuts and square wood most likely someone will not need to utilize that sort of clamping force. So there is a fine line with sizing. Right now the price point for both clamps looks to be around $60 for a 3 foot clamp, $55 for a 2 foot and $50 for a 1 foot. Assuming the 1 foot will be the most popular. The cost decreases as the total # of clamps produced increase (economics) so the price could decrease if there is a demand. I have sourced all of my parts here in the states. So as I sit right now, I will produce 5 or so, test them for an extended period of time and continue on from there. I understand that competing against $5 clamp from HF is not doable so I wont be able to attract that market. It will be directed towards those who are looking for something to last a lifetime like some of the designs from the 1930-on have done. I am not following that design and/or designing to those extremes but you get the idea. I have worked towards making the design more ergonomically friendly in the regards of handling and the handle being more than a straight cut piece of wood. The current weights are:
1 foot Aluminum: 1.5lbs
2 foot Aluminum: 2 lbs
3 foot Aluminum: 2.5lbs
1 foot Steel: 3 lbs
2 foot Steel: 5 lbs
3 foot Steel: 7lbs
Those may change through any design changes
Thank you all for the great discussion and keep it coming!

[Mark Bolton]

Colton,
Unfortunately I think your price point puts you out of the main stream and into the UBER clamp user. Your scaling issue could effect your price point dramatically. For reference.. Before Pony/Adjustable clamp went south, we were paying about $50 for a 60" steel I bar clamp. We were paying $14 for a 3/4" pipe clamp set (no pipe). These were domestic prices. I realize your not selling Ibars and your not selling pipe clamps, but this is (was) the level your competing against.

Now Wetzlers are selling for $50 a pop on ebay for good stock. Thats likely a market you may be able to build upon at the price point. Im not sure your going to swing many consumer clamp customers at that price point.

[Brian Holcombe]

Colton,
I think the trick would be to get your products on the pages of Lie Nielsen, TFWW and similar premium retailers. Save the effort of trying to compare to a cheap thing and sit beside another good product in front of a qualified consumer.

[Jim Becker]

I think Brian makes a good suggestion...how you market and through whom is going to be a factor with a premium product. Placing it with other premium products gets you the audience that is more likely to bite.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi Colton,

Here's an interesting article about Dubuque Clamp Works from a few years ago. Maybe they would be a comparison point for you since their clamps are made of aluminum and are regarded to be high quality. Their model is very much the Made in USA model home town business that some of the posts in this thread have mentioned.

http://www.telegraphherald.com/news/business/article_4c1b143a-bff2-5dd4-869c-47c8a63cff52.html

The article talks about their prices being higher than others, but I notice they're a good deal lower than what you're mentioning above and they rate the clamping force at 1000 lbs. Lee Valley, TFWW, Harry J. Epstein all sell them. Maybe this is a good comparison point for you although your design may be different/better.

Edwin

[Colton Miller]

The larger the throat depth the heavier the clamp has to be. It increases the moment against the main beam. For Dubuque they have a very small throat distance for their style of clamp which allows for a large amount of rigidity versus the clamping Force provided which means thinner components are needed . If I decreased the throat distance from 4 inches to 2 inches I could reduce the price since I could then use thinner dimensions. But I found 4 inches to be a pretty good throat depth for a bar clamp.

[Colton Miller]

Colton, I think the trick would be to get your products on the pages of Lie Nielsen, TFWW and similar premium retailers. Save the effort of trying to compare to a cheap thing and sit beside another good product in front of a qualified consumer.
Thanks Brian! That is solid advice!

[Peter Christensen]

I just had a look at LV to see what the Bessey K body clamps go for. Yours are pretty close to the same in price and I have a couple dozen, admittedly bought on sale when the old style were being sold off. They are the clamps I reach for most often and my Pony pipe clamps if I need even more. If yours are of similar quality you’ll be able to make a nice business for yourself even though they are going to cost more.

[Mike Heidrick]

I am excited about the proposed weight difference in Colton's message.

[cody michael]

So really, what you are saying is that you could care less about buying American products as long as you can buy a POS from Harbor Freight. Right?

No, I have very limited resources. If I am looking at 10 items that I need to buy, and 5 of them I can buy American for a small upcharge I do. If I buy one item that is 4 times the cost and for me gets me the same end result. I can then not afford the other 5 at small upcharge. Basically I pick my battles, the harbor frieght ones have lifetime warranty so if one breaks I can take it back. and multiple people have posted about using them with good results.

[Brian Holcombe]

For me it isn't about breakage or total failure, though I've had that with cheap clamps so I dont bother with them. Instead I care about the quality of how the item works, if it feels nice and works nicely that is an added plus.
I hate cheap tools, truly. They always end up being aggravating to deal with and costly in the sense that they're annoying or do the job improperly.

[Marvin McConoughey]

I like my Chinese made clamps and also like that we sell them billions of dollars worth of our own exports. You should not try to make and sell USA designed clamps unless you have a competitive edge. That could include breakthroughs in manufacturing technology, new patented design features, distinctive shape, etc. If you do try, be sure to have an effective exit plan pre-designed if the hoped-for profits do not materialize.

[lowell holmes]

I bought bar clamps at Home Depot many years ago. They have been good. I don't buy anything on line. If I can't pick it up and know what I'm buying, I just do not do it.

[Roger Marty]

I like my Chinese made clamps and also like that we sell them billions of dollars worth of our own exports. You should not try to make and sell USA designed clamps unless you have a competitive edge. That could include breakthroughs in manufacturing technology, new patented design features, distinctive shape, etc. If you do try, be sure to have an effective exit plan pre-designed if the hoped-for profits do not materialize.

There is a niche market for high-quality, high priced hand tools. Think Lee Nielsen. Not sure if there is such a market for clamps...but maybe? I went cheap and bought harbor freight bar clamps. They bend. I've had a handle sheer off. I'll be looking to buy better clamps and spend a bit more money.

[Simon MacGowen]

<p>

. If I decreased the throat distance from 4 inches to 2 inches I could reduce the price since I could then use thinner dimensions. But I found 4 inches to be a pretty good throat depth for a bar clamp. Since we deal with stock mostly 2 inches and less in thickness, may I ask what advantages a 4-in. throat depth offers? I have used the Dubuque aluminum bar clamps a lot (mosly for casework/cabinetry joinery) and haven&#39;t found any issues yet with their 2&quot; spec. Simon</p>

[Mark Bolton]

The 4" throat depth allows you to reach farther into a wide piece rather than applying clamping force only out at the edges of the work. Really not an issue of thickness, more with regards to width. Wider face glue-ups and so on can be tricky with common shallow depth clamps.

[Simon MacGowen]

The 4&quot; throat depth allows you to reach farther into a wide piece rather than applying clamping force only out at the edges of the work. Really not an issue of thickness, more with regards to width. Wider face glue-ups and so on can be tricky with common shallow depth clamps.
Hi Mark,
I understand that but in the majority of butt joints, dovetail joints etc. for case work, boxes, etc., the 4&quot; depth does not offer any advantages at all, as you will be clamping a wide board to the end/edge of a board that is 1/2&quot; to 1&quot; thick in most cases, In fact, as I see it, for most glue-ups involving stock of 2&quot; or less, a 4&quot; throat depth means the core clamping force is directed a little above the stock,
When my glue-up needs a deep throat calmp, 4&quot; throat depth (my Bessey clamps) is usually not deep enough and I usually go with those that are 5&quot; deep or more.
By wide face glue-ups, are you referring to gluing two wide boards face to face, lamintaing boards?
Simon

[Edwin Santos]

Thanks Brian! That is solid advice!

Colton, Further to Brian's advice, as part of your market research, I wonder if a call to the buyers at some of the premium retailers he mentioned would yield some good insight. Nobody knows the discriminating woodworker market like they do, and they'd probably give you some solid feedback at no cost to you. Plus their interest is aligned with yours - those retailers don't want to stock a product that's not going to sell any more than you'd want to manufacture one that's not going to sell.

Just an idea. If you do make the rounds, I'd add Lee Valley Tools to Brian's list.

Regards,
Edwin

[Larry Edgerton]

Got pictures, drawings? The reason I ask is is I am wearing out my clamps and am thinking about new, would pay more for American IF they are any good. I can hold off for a while. I too am in the camp that like to buy the best once.

Michelin on my truck, but no Martin in my shop. One of life cruel realities.:D

[Colton Miller]

Once again, thank you for all of the solid advice! I cant tell you how much I appreciate it!
At this time I am prototyping a basic bar clamp. There are no extreme difference from the standard style expect for using really good components. I have all of the parts ordered to start my first set of 5 for testing. I am working on drawing/modeling a constant force bar clamp design. As in you put the clamp where you want it, flip a lever, and it will apply &quot;x&quot; amount of force everytime. So this would be nice when you have a row of clamps that you want to apply even pressure.
I do not want to post any of my models or drawings up until I start selling them.

[Simon MacGowen]

<p>

I do not want to post any of my models or drawings up until I start selling them. This is what any new product maker would do, too. Even with patent protection (clones of Bencrafted products are now sold online already), you want to sell as many as you want before someone else copies yours. Simon</p>

[Curt Harms]

Fuzzy math is what's got us into this problem to begin with.

Likes this a lot, and not just for clamps or tools.

As far as F style clamps, I wonder if there isn't a market for throats deeper than 2 1/2". I know I've had to be creative when a clamp with a deeper throat would have simplified my life.

[Frederick Skelly]

Colton,
I'm glad this is getting you some useful feedback. A couple thoughts/ideas to have in mind:
* Be aware that discussing too much detail can let someone else steal/copy/update your idea. The web is open to all. Probably a small concern, but it's still prudent (IMO) to keep in the back of your mind.
* You might be able to solicit volunteers to beta test prototypes of your clamps, if you follow the site's terms of service. Barry Wixey did that a couple years back for his drill press depth gauge and several of us participated. I'd drop SMC's owner Keith Outten a note to be sure it's ok and ask how he wants to do it. But like I said, it has been done before, so there should be a way, and maybe it would help you. Several of us own different types of clamps and could do an informal comparision for you across brands.

Good luck!
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

Likes this a lot, and not just for clamps or tools. As far as F style clamps, I wonder if there isn&#39;t a market for throats deeper than 2 1/2&quot;. I know I&#39;ve had to be creative when a clamp with a deeper throat would have simplified my life.
Deep throat f-clamps are essential in my work. These at 7&quot; or longer are my favoirties:
http://www.rockler.com/bessey-tg-professional-series-bar-clamps
Simon

[Colton Miller]

Colton, I'm glad this is getting you some useful feedback. A couple thoughts/ideas to have in mind: * Be aware that discussing too much detail can let someone else steal/copy/update your idea. The web is open to all. Probably a small concern, but it's still prudent (IMO) to keep in the back of your mind. * You might be able to solicit volunteers to beta test prototypes of your clamps, if you follow the site's terms of service. Barry Wixey did that a couple years back for his drill press depth gauge and several of us participated. I'd drop SMC's owner Keith Outten a note to be sure it's ok and ask how he wants to do it. But like I said, it has been done before, so there should be a way, and maybe it would help you. Several of us own different types of clamps and could do an informal comparision for you across brands. Good luck! Fred
Fred,
I have two people who are willing to test out the prototypes and compare them to other clamps. I've done my best to not disclose any details that may give away the design structure of the clamp (although they are all pretty similar).
Really appreciate the advise!
Colton

[johnny means]

I often think the same thing. Chinese workers are just as capable as American workers. That being said, I think COO can be indicative of a manufacturers goals. Off-shoring often points to a price sensitive approach to manufacturing.

[Elmer Hayes]

As an amateur wood worker(retirement hobby)... My German made Bessey's are slowly being overtaken by the Chinese clamps. Every time the Germans, Scandinavians, etc, come up with some fine clamps, the Chinese copy them and all are overtaken.

The Chinese clamps now have soft grips, pads, etc.instead of wood handles held together with pins. Have now tons of HFreight China clamps and they seem to do just fine for a price of $2.09(with coupon) for the smallest clamps is hard to avoid. Remember its only a clamp!

cheers...

[Simon MacGowen]

As an amateur wood worker(retirement hobby)... My German made Bessey's are slowly being overtaken by the Chinese clamps.

cheers...

Ovetaken in two senses. One by China-made non-Bessey clamps; second, Bessey clamps made in China rather than in Germany.

My collection of clamps over time has become the United Nation.

Simon

[Larry Edgerton]

One the other hand, I have never built a house or a kitchen or a door for anyone outside of the United States. Americans hire me, and so it is my best interest to do business with people that do business with me.

[Colton Miller]

Thanks for the continued discussion!

On the topic of harbor freight clamps, I went out and bought a few for myself and there is no way I would like working with them. I feel like they are going to break at the worst possible moment and I can't take that risk when gluing up rather expensive hardwoods. There is no way I can compete with those prices. There is more to it than just a price comparison as well. My clamps will be on the upper spectrum of the price range but the cost is going to support machinists, supply businesses, and factory workers. The argument of labor practices of different countries can become a very political debate and thats not what I am after, but it is difficult not to mention it when discussing the prices of 1st world country products vs 3rd world country products.
So, onto the clamps. I recently finished up my first set of prototypes and I am very pleased with the stability and overall rigidity of the clamp. I will soon be sending them to a couple of members whom I have been in contact with for testing!

Thank you for all the advise,
Colton

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks for the continued discussion!

On the topic of harbor freight clamps, I went out and bought a few for myself and there is no way I would like working with them. I feel like they are going to break at the worst possible moment and I can't take that risk when gluing up rather expensive hardwoods.
Colton

I have half a dozen to a dozen of F-style clamps from HF and they never break (themselves or the builds they were used on). They aren't anything better or worse than the other F-style clamps I have that are $5 to $10 more expensive each. As clamps, they do what they are supposed to, despite their very competitive prices.

But I don't know what HF clamps you were referring to.

If you were talking about the HF imported aluminum bar clamps, then yes. They are no match to the U.S. made Dubuque clamps of which I have a decent collection.

Simon

[Robert Hannon]

This is just my .02 but if you want to get into an already established market you need to do something new. Quality will certainly make or break you in the long run, but it alone is not gonna get you in the door.

What would I personally buy?
When it comes to small clamps I buy cheap. HF F style clamps are fine for what they are used for. What would get me to pay more for them? If they did more. If it was a clamp that I could also use in dog holes, or a welding table, or the groove in a tracksaw, then I would pay more for something that was more flexible. If I need something with a lot of force or a long reach then I am probably going to make something myself, but I would buy something that made a DIY clamp easier and faster. Say something that used EMT or strut. Something that had an advantage over pipe clamps either in weight or in space required.

Stores like Harbor Freight have opened up a lot of DIY interest that financially people probably would not have explored before. As such there are more people getting feet wet with woodworking, metalworking, etc. There are three things that every maker I know shares a lack of. Time, Money, and Space. Competing with overseas labor for price is going to be hard so come up with something that saves us time or space and you will grab peoples attention.

[Colton Miller]

All,

Thank you for the support and great discussion on this topic, sadly after trying for the last three months I can't get the price low enough to be competitive and made in the states without an extremely large overhead that I can't take on at this point in time. Once again, thanks!

Colton

[Mitchell Ristine]

All,

Thank you for the support and great discussion on this topic, sadly after trying for the last three months I can't get the price low enough to be competitive and made in the states without an extremely large overhead that I can't take on at this point in time. Once again, thanks!

Colton

Sorry to hear that. Been watching this for a while. I like a good "some local guy decides to make x product" story. Keep at it.

[Edwin Santos]

Kudos for making an intelligent evaluation and decision now, rather than finding out the hard way once your plane is in the air.
Edwin

[Brian Holcombe]

That’s ashame, sorry to hear that it will not work out. I believe American manufacturing is competitive through automation so it does take a huge amount of capital up front.

It may be worth shopping it around to some other American tool manufacturers that make a high end products. Or perhaps even smaller companies like Chris Schwartz (sp?) company.

Being, myself, a small timer working out some products I can say it is not easy, not in the least.

[Larry Edgerton]

Sorry to hear that. Tough market out there, wish you the best in the future.