Does a woodworker really need a sliding-compound miter saw?

[Bill Graham]

I just thought I'd throw this out and see what comes back.

Personally: I cut my teeth back in the dinosaur age when a RAS was the preferred cutoff machine, a good one weighed in at several hundred pounds and took a day to set up. But you could get a dead-nuts straight crosscut at 90 degrees up to 24" wide depending on how big a saw you wanted to buy.

Now we have the lightweight saws that do everything and tilt every which way but upside-down, but they only cut 12" at 90 and more-or-less straight. Even the most expensive saws with the best blades can't produce a straight cut to furniture-grade standards on a standard FAS board(8" or less), much less at 12". I realize this is subjective but I have yet to get a crosscut from my Kapex with the Forrest Chopmaster blade that I can hold up to a light against a straightedge and not see gaps in the cut. To me, that's not furniture-grade quality. Back in that dinosaur age when I cut for a trim crew with a 12" B&D Pro compound miter saw, it was good enough for what we were doing but it definitely wasn't furniture-grade.

We all have table saws that have remarkably precise bevel adjustments and miter gauges that equal or exceed the accuracy of the tablesaw, where's the need for a chopsaw that doesn't compare in accuracy? If you're not a trim carpenter how do you justify the need for a tool like this to use in your shop, other than convenience? And do you need to spend $500-$1500 and the space it occupies in your shop for that convenience?

Like I said, I'm just throwing this out for discussion. Let's hear your thoughts.

[Victor Robinson]

Agree, total luxury and not necessary. Before I started extensive remodeling and trim work in my house, my shop didn’t have a SCMS. I actually got rid of a Hitachi CMS I had taking up space and collecting dust. My TS and crosscut sled were more than sufficient for all my crosscutting needs as I wasn’t needing finish cuts on pieces longer than 4 ft. But at that time I also did much smaller woodworking projects.

Will I get rid of my Kapex when I’m done with all the reno work? I’m not sure, but squeezing it into a permanent (and usable) home in the shop is definitely going to be challenging.

[Derek Cohen]

What is the need? I guess if someone was butt joining with floating tenons, the end must be spot-on.

A cross-cut table saw will square panels and the ends of boards. Ditto to break down long rough sawn boards. I prefer this. I do not own a SCMS.

I use a shooting board and hand plane to square ends of drawer fronts.

Mouldings are sawn on a mitre box and then shot with a plane.

Tenon shoulders (of M&T joinery) are chiseled square, with traditionally sawn cheeks. I do not use floating tenons (I do have a Domino but do not use it when building most furniture).

So, I do not envisage ever owning a SCMS (noisy, horrible machines).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I’ve tuned my Kapex to crosscut accurately. It won’t show light when I use a square and backlight to check. You can adjust using the three screws along the front, it takes some doing.....more than I expected.

[Bill Bukovec]

I would say that for woodworking it's nice to have, but not needed. Especially if you have a tablesaw. I use my miter saw a lot for construction type projects. Building chicken coops, installing trim, and framing, etc.

[Robert Cherry]

I have both. I see them as two very different tools. I think the RAS, when set up properly, provides a better and more square cut. It is my go-to tool for cross cutting in the shop. I don't use it for angled cuts. I have a Bosch sliding miter saw for angled cuts, which it excels at. Importantly, dust collection on my RAS is far more effective than on my miter saw.

[Mike Henderson]

I have a Kapex and it works great for me. I only wish it was a 12" instead of a 10".

Mike

[Ed Labadie]

No, at least in my world.

I've an old Milwaukee 10" scms, fine for framing, thats it. I won't attempt to use it for any highly accurate cuts. It deflects like no other, a long bevel cut is an exercise in futility.

Whether it gets cut on the ts or an ras, I'll take the extra time.

For small cuts straight or angled sometimes I'll use my old Mikwaukee chop saw, after some modification it'll cut dead nuts.....but very limited capacity. Very handy when a dedicated saw is needed.

Ed

[glenn bradley]

You are seeing the typical polarized answers on this. Folks that use 'em wouldn't want to be without. Those of us that do those things another way don't really care. I moved to making those types of cuts other ways just due to not having the footprint for a dedicated SCMS or RAS. Having one in the shop would be cool if I had extra space. Mine lives in the shed and comes out for trim jobs and the like.

[Christian Setla]

I had one for years, a Hitachi job. Nice and accurate, but I just could not dedicate the space to those pesky linear rods sticking out the back. In the 10 years I had it, the only time I was actually glad I had it was when I had a bunch of fence boards that needed to be dog eared. Other than that, it was just too much work to set up for a cut, so I used something else.

Today there are several saws that have the linear rods mounted towards the front, and thus not in the way. But, in the end, I decided it's just not worth the effort for me and the kind of work I do. I'm also not planing on building another fence!

I think it's one of those "depends" question, which is why it seems people are so polarized.

Christian

[Andrew Hughes]

My Bosch glide has chopmaster on it. And it earns its space in my shop small shop I can get flat cuts on most anything even hickory.
If it didn't I would find a saw that did.:)

[Wayne Lomman]

Well said, Doug! I also strongly disagree with the basic premise that everything must be X vs Y. Think things through and there are always a range of options. Some we may like, others we may not.

In this case, the different saws have different uses and these uses can change with the job at hand. Use what you have that does the best job and suits the task at hand. Flexible thinking makes for better craft workers.

And to those who hate the noise of a mitre saw, stop being cheapskates and buy a workshop mitre saw, not a worksite mitre saw. Do you really think good workshops use throw away plastic rubbish and send all the workforce deaf? A workshop mitre saw is a solid machine made by professional machine tool manufacturers with a quiet , continuous running motor that is a dream to use. You can't buy one at your local big box hardware. Cheers

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I don't have space for one, and I have a sliding tablesaw so I don't need one for making furniture.

I do have a non sliding CMS that has a 10 inch blade and is great for cutting fence boards and this year it was used for building a shed. The remainder of the time it's on loan to people at work.....Regards, Rod.

[roger wiegand]

My ancient Hitachi, permanently set up in the shop with a very solid fence system, makes consistent (highly repeatable), perfectly square and straight cuts. I also have a Dewalt that gets hauled around to my various construction projects that is good enough for cutting studs even after being dropped a few times. I don't have the space for a sliding table saw and haven't had occasion to try a RAS since high school wood shop. It wasn't a good experience, the saw was on its last legs.

I'm sure that others have different solutions that work perfectly well for them; I'm happy with my choice but don't feel any need to convince anyone else to switch. To the OP I would say that your experience isn't universal, and that you may have a problem with either your tool or how it is set up. Inaccuracy isn't inherent to the SCMS.

[Jim Becker]

"Need" is relative. It depends upon what the woodworker wants to do with the tool based on both work preferences and what other tools are available. Woodworkers who are shop-based have more options in that respect. I only use my miter saw for breaking down lumber and occasional "convenience" cuts...I'd benefit in no way from having a sliding version and I think I've actually only used the "compound" capability of my miter saw once in the two decades I've owned it. However, and on the other hand, folks who spend a lot of time "on site" doing installation work, etc., may actually "require" the abilities of an SCMS because it provides a lot of utility in a single, portable tool.

[nate graham]

We have a Dewalt set up that handles breaking down materials into more manageable parts, along with cutting trim details, but as for final sizing, I prefer the table saw, which brings a question to mind that I have often pondered to no avail. why is a miter box inaccurate, lets say we have a tuned up sliding miterbox and you cut a compound miter, I have found that more times then not it will be inaccurate, whereas you do the same cut on a well tuned tablesaw the results are good, is it just the physics of how the material is presented to the cutter, or am I just way over thinking the whole dang thing

[lowell holmes]

Actually, a died in the wool woodworker needs one of each. :)

[John K Jordan]

I bought a Bosch glider when I started on my shop and gave away my other "chop" saws.

My opinion is a SCMS is invaluable for the construction carpenter but not necessarily for making fine cuts for furniture for a woodworker with other options. I used mine extensively when building my shop and other construction around the shop.

Don't forget another type of woodworker - the wood turner. I use my SCMS a LOT when cutting a turning blank from long stock or when breaking down pieces I can handle easily on the bandsaw or crosscut on the table saw. Even though I have a sliding table on my PM66, the chop saw is far quicker to use and works with boards so long I can barely fit into my shop. It will also cut stock thicker and easier and safer than I'd prefer to cut on the table saw.

I also use it a lot for jigs and platforms and miscellaneous things related to wood turning and working and farm maintenance. I haven't bothered to align it and except for the day I brought it home I've never checked the squareness of the cut. Singing "It don't matter to me."

JKJ

[Frederick Skelly]

I have a 12" Makita. It`s tuned to cut nuts-on square. (It's non-sliding, which probably helps that.)
I'm glad to have it.

[Robert Engel]

My experience is the same: the reliability of a RAS to cut true every time. It is just not going to happen unless you have the old iron or a very expensive model - an never change a setting!!.

A miter saw, OTOH, I would expect to get repeatable accurate cuts. I would be sorely disappointed if I had an expensive saw like a Kapex with unrepeatable results.

Therefore I use a RAS for a rough cut. I do final cuts on either a tablesaw sled or my Jessem miter gauge. If I'm looking to be dead on accurate, I go to the shooting board.

[Andrew Seemann]

I don't know that you "need" a SCMS for woodworking in that you don't "need" a Forrest blade for your table saw or you don't "need" an expensive set of chisels to cut a hinge mortice.

I have a Makita 10" SCMS that would be one of my last tools I would give up. It makes nice cuts, even with the stock blade, and properly set up I haven't had a problem with accuracy. I find trying to cross cut longer boards on a table saw to be clumsy and inaccurate, I don't have room for a sliding attachment on my table saw, and my arthritic body doesn't feel like spending a lot of time cutting hardwood by hand. Plus do need to cut accurate angles on occasion and it is nice for that.

I wouldn't mind a RAS, primarily to cut dados overhead, but I don't want to trade the space for it; there are other tools I find more useful. My SCMS is permanently set up on a combination saw table-downdraft table, with drawers and shelves underneath and decent dust collection for the SCMS. The saw fence is over the downdraft side, and can be removed for sanding larger pieces. I've used the setup for about 15 years and quite like it, especially for its footprint.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a trained beaver in my shop, have not needed a saw since.:p

[andrew whicker]

This is funny. Sounds like I'm about to get a job that I put a bid on. If I get it, the first thing I'm doing with the money is buying a Bosch. I'm SO tired of cutting down pieces to a reasonable size on the table saw.

Also, the miter saw will be stored under my table saw. Sigh. Not ideal, but until I expand the shop I don't have room for a radial saw.

Does anyone use an upcut saw over a radial?

[michael langman]

When I installed a wide plank red oak floor on my living room, I had boards 10-12 feet long and bought a reconditioned Makita 10" CSMS to square the ends. It squared the ends seamlessly with 7" wide boards.
Then I used it for the molding around the room and another room. It gets used for various cuts, as the legs to my workbench coming up soon.
I see it more as a carpentry tool that can occasionally do wood shop work, but not a necessity in the shop.
I would not pay the going price for one, unless I made a living with it. A skil saw can get you by most of the time, when needed.

[scott vroom]

We've got a Bosch 12" SCMS with an articulating arm that allows it to sit against the wall. It'll crosscut 14". We use it frequently to break down long boards, for crosscutting drawer sides and face frames, and for general construction. It's handy for all types of quick convenience cuts and I wouldn't be without it.

[Dave Cav]

If you're a framer or finish carpenter, probably.** If you do mostly furniture, probably not. I am in the old iron RAS camp, using a vintage Delta turret RAS for breaking stock down. I never move it from 90*. I use my 10 TS for miters. I do have an old 12" B&D chop saw for the once in every two year project that involves some kind of outdoor framing work.

** Although the framing crew who were working on my house last month didn't have one. They got by with a jobsite TS and a couple of Skil saws (and watching them use those saws was downright scary). We'll see what happens when the siders and interior finish guys show up.

[Brandon Speaks]

Its one of my most used tools. Not for fine woodworking but for breaking down 2x4s more quickly than a circular saw.

[Art Mann]

I have a nice Bosch SCMS that I like and use fairly often. However, if I had to cut down my shop equipment, it would be one of the first things to go. I use crosscut and miter sleds on my table saw for real precision work.

[Brian Henderson]

Nobody "needs" anything. All tools are just a convenience. You could make all of your cuts with a hand saw if you wanted to and had the patience. Every tool has things it does well and things it does badly. It all depends on how often you do the things that it does well.

[Martin Wasner]

I have a trained beaver in my shop, have not needed a saw since.:p

I just yell at the lumber until it becomes whatever I was paid to make it into. I'm interested in acquiring one of these beavers though. I was thinking of training a Shetland pony to do the yelling, but I worry about it's voice being a little hoarse.....



I don't use a compound saw in the shop very often. Crown and that's about it, but that's rarely put on anything in the shop as well. That saw does get used for some for a moulding I use for wrapping doors that works really well if you do a 1/2 degree bevel on the one side and cheat the angle in a bit. They just slip together better. We don't do that door style very often either.


Need is subjective, until you have a deadline.

[John K Jordan]

I have a trained beaver in my shop, have not needed a saw since.:p

That's lame. With those huge cutters everyone knows beavers are limited to crude work! The progressive woodworker uses the new programmable termites, will work for food, capable of fine detail.

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JKJ

[Jim Becker]

That's lame. With those huge cutters everyone knows beavers are limited to crude work! The progressive woodworker uses the new programmable termites, will work for food, capable of fine detail.

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JKJ

Yea, but the trained termites more or less are limited to creating the hole-y grail... :D

[Larry Edgerton]

That's lame. With those huge cutters everyone knows beavers are limited to crude work! The progressive woodworker uses the new programmable termites, will work for food, capable of fine detail.

JKJ

Beavers are a very under-rated tool, its important that you have the right beaver for the job at hand. There are rough beavers, good for framing houses, and finish beavers who are more versed in the finer arts of furniture and cabinetry. Its important that you learn how to use your beavers correctly before you just dismiss beavers out of hand.Many people buy a beaver and never really learn how to use their beaver to its full potential, but rather blame the beaver for their poor workmanship, when in reality it is not the beavers fault at all.

I am currently training a hedgehog to take over sanding duties from my belt sander, another misunderstood animal.

[Jim Dwight]

My little 14x24 shop has a 12 inch Hitachi non-slider and an old Ryobi RAS on a long bench with the fences aligned and flip stops on the bench. Crosscuts within the 8 inch capacity of the CMS get done there. Wider goes to the Ryobi. My RAS requires good technique to get square cuts but will do it. My suspicion is the SCMSs work similarly - they will cut well but can also be pushed off by not the greatest technique. Larger crosscuts get done by the track saw. Table saw only rips. I also have an old 10 inch non-slider that I used recently to put up a bunch of 3 5/8 crown. It worked fine and saved me having to move the Hitachi around. It is heavy.

[Steve Demuth]

Mine is sitting in the haymow alongside curing home saw lumber and a few other tools that I need once in a blue moon, but in no sense regularly. I have a small shop that can't afford space for tools that don't get used, and I found myself hardly ever using the cutoff saw. It comes down out of the "cold" storage for construction projects, for which such tools are excellent, only. Meanwhile in the shop, I break down rough lumber using hand tools - a well-tuned frame saw is an amazing cross cut instrument for any rough cut - and do finish cuts on one of two table saw sleds that I keep tuned for dead-square or 45 degree miter cuts.

All of which reflects the fact that I make one-off furniture projects and smaller stuff almost exclusively, and I do so in order to spend time in my shop, not to reach production volumes. If I were in this to make a living, I'd have a bigger shop, and probably a meticulously tuned compound sliding miter saw, or radial arm saw to provide a production quality cross cut station so I didn't have to switch setups between cross cutting, ripping and specialty cuts on the table saw. I'd almost certainly have a second table saw set up strictly for ripping as well.

[lowell holmes]

I had one at one time. Since I don't have it anymore, I obviously don't need one. I don't do the kind of joinery that requires one.

If you are a toy collector, get one.

OBTW, they can be dangerous. Kickbacks can happen.

[jack duren]

I use mine. Not always building furniture pieces. Yet I have used it on other things....
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[Gregory King]

Mine is a 10" Makita with its folding stand. Probably why I like it so much since it stores like a wheel barrow. Also have a RAS that I use for dado work on deck components.
Not used all the time, but would never do without either.

[William Fretwell]

I have a Bosch glide 12". Take the stock blade off and save for trimming the ends of Martha Stewart's firewood. The stock blade deflects a bit but with a good blade vertical cuts are impressive, almost table saw square in hard maple. Beveled cuts are not quite as good but it depends on the wood.

For cutting long awkward pieces that won't fit my table saw it's excellent. Don't overcut and nibble down just make one cut. It has no use for fine furniture.

[Brian Holcombe]

It’s plenty useful for fine furniture, especially with an accurate blade, setup, zero clearance insert and fence. It won’t make a finished cut but it can do accurate work if the prep is there and you maintain its accuracy.

[Scott Buehler]

For construction it is a must. For woodworking I prefer no slide. One more thing to get out of alignment. Just give me a12" compound miter and call it good :)

[Randy Viellenave]

I have a 12" Hitachi that I got before my tablesaw, and since I have to roll it outside to use the table saw anyway it becomes convenient to make length cuts. Originally purchased for doing a house full of crown (which it did well), not sure I would spend the bucks on one now. And after reading the earlier parts of this thread, I am now considering a papa beaver, mama beaver, and baby beaver to handle my rough, fine, and finish cuts.

[Chris Hachet]

What is the need? I guess if someone was butt joining with floating tenons, the end must be spot-on.

A cross-cut table saw will square panels and the ends of boards. Ditto to break down long rough sawn boards. I prefer this. I do not own a SCMS.

I use a shooting board and hand plane to square ends of drawer fronts.

Mouldings are sawn on a mitre box and then shot with a plane.

Tenon shoulders (of M&T joinery) are chiseled square, with traditionally sawn cheeks. I do not use floating tenons (I do have a Domino but do not use it when building most furniture).

So, I do not envisage ever owning a SCMS (noisy, horrible machines).

Regards from Perth

Derek

I agree completely.

[Bryan Cramer]

I am pretty much on par with everyone else. i have an old 10" Makita on a folding cart stand. It is used for construction work, trim and breaking down boards. It is very handy when building shop projects too. I don't want to dedicate space to a shop made cabinet stand with extension wings so the stand I have folds like a wheel barrow and is perfect to tuck away in the corner or roll it on site. Everything else is cut with the table saw or by hand.

[Mark Woodmark]

I consider it more of a trim carpenters tool rather than a woodworkers tool. I could not live without it when I trim out houses, but very rarely use it in my woodworking shop

[Bill Carey]

I thought about getting one but couldn't justify the expense. I have a 30 year old Ryobi 8 1/2" miter saw that still cuts dead on at 90. Bought when I was trimming houses. I use it mainly to break down rough lumber, square up board ends, etc. Most everything else is table or band saw work. Or hand saw. As you can see from the picture I break down a lot of oak boards! Now if I could just get the cleaning people to show once in a while....
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[Peter Christensen]

I have a Makita mitre saw that I bought around 1980. It doesn't slide or even tilt over so just good for simple cuts so hardly ever gets used. The go to saw after the Beavers of course is the table saw. Certain members of the animal kingdom have wonderful abilities to work wood and you don't need ear protection with the exception of Woodpeckers and they excel at mortices, dados and holes. That is likely the reason I have no interest in a Domino or a SCMS.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

For furniture and fine woodworking it is nice to have, but it is a luxury IMO.

I see them as a construction tool. Its compound mitering is godsent for moulding. Also great for hard board flooring.

[Bill Graham]

I just want to thank everyone for their responses, it's certainly been interesting following the thread! :D

I guess I fall into the camp that thinks it's a must for the trim carpenter(although a non-slider would work just as well if you could find a decent one these days) and it's very convenient for breaking down long boards or when you need a quick crosscut.

Since I have two of the beasts(along with the Kapex an older(circa 2004) 8-1/2" Hitachi slider) I guess I'll keep them. The Hitachi lives in the storeroom and gets hauled out for outside work, the Kapex resides in the basement in a shop-built cabinet with folding wings and it's own vac. The dust collection is far from advertised but I only have to make a few cuts with the Hitachi and no vac appreciate the improvement.

I asked the question because I was seriously considering replacing the Kapex with the new Makita 10" slider, the one with the front rails. It allegedly has pretty good dust collection, crosscuts the same 12" and would be a new toy. But the more I thought about it and read the responses here, the more I think I'll just dance with the one that brung me. Along with that, I don't have to deal with selling off the Kapex, tinkering with the cabinet and buying a whole new collection of blades. If it ain't broke you don't need to fix it, right?

Anyway, thanks again to all who took the time to offer their thoughts.

Merry Christmas!

[Jan Carr]

I think it depends on the type of work you do and the space you have. I've had a 10" Makita SCMS for years, and would be lost without it in my cabinet shop. As far as accuracy is concerned, if you true it up, and then use it sensibly, it will stay accurate for months, and months, and months. I don't think I've had to adjust mine in about 2 years.

[Justin Ludwig]

I think it depends on the type of work you do and the space you have. I've had a 10" Makita SCMS for years, and would be lost without it in my cabinet shop. As far as accuracy is concerned, if you true it up, and then use it sensibly, it will stay accurate for months, and months, and months. I don't think I've had to adjust mine in about 2 years.
Yup. I haven't had to true mine in 5 years and it gets moved from shop to site all the time. I have a dedicated insert spot for mine in a 30' run of table where it sits 2 feet right of my RAS. I just built a set of cabinets that had T&G doors with applied molding. I rigged up a board to run off my tigerstop (that's usually only measuring to my RAS) that reached my SCMS to cut all the miters. SOOOO NICE, dead accurate, and FAST!

I saw another comment that stated it's "relative". That's always the case. If mine exploded today, I'd drive 90 miles to Lowe's and buy a new one ASAP.

For those saying that it won't cut accurately: your saw is old and worn, your blade is too thing and run-out is a problem, or (most likely) you haven't taken the time to dial it in.

Do you need one for furniture building? Not at all.

[Mike Henderson]

I just want to thank everyone for their responses, it's certainly been interesting following the thread! :D

I guess I fall into the camp that thinks it's a must for the trim carpenter(although a non-slider would work just as well if you could find a decent one these days) and it's very convenient for breaking down long boards or when you need a quick crosscut.

Since I have two of the beasts(along with the Kapex an older(circa 2004) 8-1/2" Hitachi slider) I guess I'll keep them. The Hitachi lives in the storeroom and gets hauled out for outside work, the Kapex resides in the basement in a shop-built cabinet with folding wings and it's own vac. The dust collection is far from advertised but I only have to make a few cuts with the Hitachi and no vac appreciate the improvement.

I asked the question because I was seriously considering replacing the Kapex with the new Makita 10" slider, the one with the front rails. It allegedly has pretty good dust collection, crosscuts the same 12" and would be a new toy. But the more I thought about it and read the responses here, the more I think I'll just dance with the one that brung me. Along with that, I don't have to deal with selling off the Kapex, tinkering with the cabinet and buying a whole new collection of blades. If it ain't broke you don't need to fix it, right?

Anyway, thanks again to all who took the time to offer their thoughts.

Merry Christmas!

I agree with you about the Kapex dust collection. It might be better but it still makes a mess. At least for me.

Mike

[Larry Edgerton]

One thing I think a lot of people miss is that a slider usually has a lock to eliminate the slide mechanism. All of mine do anyway. If you need more precision, then you lock the slide out and it is now a standard chop saw. I do it all the time.

By the way, my favorite after the finish beaver is a Makita.

[William Shelley]

I have a Ridgid 12" non-slider and a Kobalt 10" slider. Both of them get occasional use but likely the 12" non-slider will get sold and the 10" slider will go in storage until I need it for remodeling type projects on my house. Neither of them are very accurate, and I picked up a Milwaukee 18v FUEL brushless-DC 7-1/4" circular saw earlier this year and it's so much quieter and portable, I use that exclusively now for breaking down rough-sawn boards into shorter lengths. I find it invaluable when I'm going outside to my wood pile, because I can cut wood down before bringing it into my too-small shop.

My table saw does crosscut duty when I need accurate cuts.