Widebelt help ASAP..

[Patrick Walsh]

I work for a small four man custom cabinet shop and out widebelt is on its last leg.

It’s a 80’s era AEM 36” single head unit.

I know nothing about these machines nor does my boss for the most part.

The considerations for replacement are as follows.

2001 Kundig 43” dual head. In what looks like excellent shape out of a small closing 2-3 man shop. $12000

A new unused private sale 2016 Timesaver dual head 43” 1300 series unit $19000

Or a brand new SCMI Entry level 36” single head unit. $17000

I have my thoughts on what is a good and bad decision. I would be interested to what others think with regard to high end used and well cared for and how you can tell or not. Vrs new and lesser machine in hopes of less potential problems.

All three machines have there appeal. Clearly the Kundig is well a Kundig and dual head 43” and ideal in many ways. It’s a upgrade from what we have in capacity and the dual head should speed up production a bit.

The Timesaver seems like a deal and it’s new, we get added capacity dual head and hopefully no problems as it’s never been used.

The Scmi seems like a safe bet as we get by with a single head 36” now and it’s new. Parts are easy to get yada yada.

Thoughts...

[Martin Wasner]

Go with the timesavers, but the 1300 series is the lighter duty model.

Find out the hp on each head too. Anything less than 20hp on a 43" requires some patience.

[Patrick Walsh]

Even though it’s made in Taiwan..

[Martin Wasner]

Even though it's made in Taiwan..

They can build to any spec. I'd be more concerned with it being a lighter duty model.

The euro machines that I've been exposed to haven't blown me away. Some trick features and a really horrible conveyor that they all run.

I've got an Apex 2300, it's a Timesaver with different paint and a few options I feel are useless removed. The auto set for height being the main thing. Apex is Minnesota based, as is Timesavers, oddly enough the guys who own Apex used to work at Timesavers...
I'm happy with the build quality and I'm not a fan of junk tools. Timesavers is apt as easy as you can get for parts availability, my last sander was from them.

Mine was $35k new three years ago. The same model from Timesavers was almost $10k more. Mine's a 43" dual head, 25hp on the first, 20hp on the second combo head.

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm,

So confusing. It’s not my decision to make but I am trying to help my boss sort through the variables as we both know as much as each other “nothing”...

He is buisness minded and me not so much. I have a fairly nice shop at home and I’m more a spare no expense kinda guy. This is why I work for someone as my mentality and logic wouldcsink any buisness.

I have no tolerance for cheap machinery. I just can’t stand plastic junk or when you look at a machine and it is clearly a toy made for hobby vrs production. Anything you have to spend more time jury rigging than using and I just dint have the patients. Time is $$ imop.

If indeed the Timesavers is a quality machine it would also het my vote as it’s not used “very important” at least in my book and the added capacity and head is a huge bonus.

On the other hands the new SCMI seems like the safe bet. It won’t be junk nor will it be built like a tank.

The Kundig has my interest as I know the build quality will be superior, the outfeed table is attractive and the price is the least. If it’s a good machine and paned out to be reliable I would prefer it to the other two options.

This is about not gambling though as more than anything I want to see my boss not have a widebelt problem again fir a very very long time. He really cant afford it tbh...

[peter gagliardi]

If there is one widebelt sander I wouldn't buy again, it is my SCMI. Had it since '97, and there have been many times I have wanted to push it out the door and off my loading dock onto the ground 5' below!
My understanding of the timesavers units, is that they are not now the machine they once were. If it were me and my business, I would look very hard at the Kundig, and put at least 6-8k in my pocket.
Remember, in a multi person shop, it will be "USED" at the end of the first week.
If it performs properly, you are ahead.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I've seen the finish on a board come out of a Kundig.
Unbelievable

[Martin Wasner]

How many hours do all of them have? (Other than the Timesavers, which is likely less than one hour.)

I don't know what the number of hours would be a walk away scenario regardless of maintenance schedule. 10,000 seems like a lot, but in an industrial application that would be less than six years old. As a rule, good air compressors are basically done at 20k hours, even when well maintained.

The thing about the Kundig that would scare me is that it's almost 20 years old, and while not exactly complicated, there is a very large amount of components both mechanical and electrical in a widebelt.

Here's a horrible picture of the inside of the electrical cabinet on mine. This was the day I brought it home and the electrician was looking something up

http://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10351963_10203464939015370_2060609154899836435_n.j pg?oh=2c3d5634b8ace3c81b64480271a080f9&oe=5AB9B888

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m still edging the boss to go new....

We will see, I don’t really have a horse in this race so.

On the other hand as suggested I hate to see him replace one used machine with another only to end up in the same boat in any short amount of time.

To me it would not be a risk I’d be willing to take.

Kundig is off the list and Timesaver from what I can tell.

New Scmi unit I think may be the choice although our local distributor just took in a used Scmi unit when a local shop upgraded to a larger unit with more heads. This really has the bosses attention.

I’m trying hard to steer him back towards new. Who knows maybe I’m wrong. I know if I end up directing him to buy used and he has a problem I’m sure gonna feel terrible. Same goes if I push him to purchase something he does not need.

Anywho thanks for the help from those whom participated.

[David Kumm]

SCMI used to have at least four levels of models. Many companies have several and there is quite a difference between them for commercial users. Some high end used will have hour meters and a higher end machine with a couple thousand hours may be a better option for the money but it will require patience and luck. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

If there is one widebelt sander I wouldn't buy again, it is my SCMI.

What are the issues with yours? My 1999 has been solid. Not good for doing big jobs like flattening slabs, but for cabinet doors it is great.

[peter gagliardi]

Tracking issues, and it just stopping mid panel on the last pass. Sometimes it won't start.
All of this costs me a LOT of time- we won't talk of the frustration.
We do not use it enough to justify another, or a higher end machine- yet.
Instead I have invested in better sliders and shapers.
I know they probably sell more than anyone, but I do not see why.

[David Kumm]

Peter, it sounds like some faulty parts. Camozzi cylinders that stick can cause tracking issues and something electrical when the machine stops. Most of the widebelts of similar price point are made the same. That should not happen and doesn't on either on my Sandya machines. Dave

[Kevin Jenness]

The increased productivity of a wider two head machine would far outweigh the benefits of a new machine's warranty if the older one is in good shape. Why don't you hire a qualified technician to assess the used machines? Can you test them under power? I would be leaning toward the Timesavers if it is as lightly used as advertised.

[Patrick Walsh]

Anyone have Sam blasco or eric Lozas phone number?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Send a private message to Eric here at SMC. I'm sure he'll respond.

[Joe Calhoon]

I have had good luck with my 3 head Kundig. It’s 15 years old now about the same vintage as the used one for sale. At that time they had 2 models of sanders. The heavier and better built ones were made in Switzerland and the lighter cost engineered ones made in Gotha Germany. If you are still looking at the used one I would check that out because the Swiss ones were more money at the time.

At the time we got this I was networking with some shops that had bought the same machine. Some were not happy and I think because they got a bad install. We were lucky and had a very good tech that spent 4 days setting it up and training. Multi head machines are tricky to calibrate and once you get it best to stay with the same belt mfg and type.

Good dust collection, servicing and clean compressed air are essential to keep these running at top performance. We did a lot of machinery upgrades 18 or so years ago and were having a lot of problems with existing machinery that used compressed air. I bit the bullet and put in a Kasser system and that solved all those issues.

Buying a used sander you need to be very careful.

[Mike Heidrick]

Look into Butfering at Stiles?

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh boy,

Good dust collection, clean dry air, yikes I gots me lotsa work to do before this machine arrives!

We don’t even have a dust collector hooked up to our table saw. Yes on the slider but not the tablesaw. We just let he thing pile up then shovel it out. This is not my decision, it is what it is. When I took the position they were running shapers with fences clamped onto tables so out of square and plumb it was a nightmare to change tooling when it came time. No power feeders nothing. Ok one power feeder but it was so messed up they did not bother even plugging it in.

The five Hp Oneida collecting dust from the shapers was run with big box store HVAVc duct. One day while cleaning up the mounds of chips the dust collectors were not collecting behind the shapers I noticed they has a 5” flex hose wide open on one end no blast gate or anything, Just wide open!

When I asked what the heck it was about and for a explanation they told me “yeah we know just kick it against the side of the machine when you turn on the dust collector and it’s closed”.

Since then i have gotten the whole shop outfitted with Nordfab for the most part, also shapers thAt are not a danger to use. Nothing fancy just old SCMI 110’2 AND 130’s, nice machines though. Oh and powerfeeders. And get this, the guys that said powerfeedrs where not Messiaen run them with everything now.We also have a large three bag bag house that runs the widebelt and the jointer. I can’t remember the brand right now but it’s big and Italian, the logo is blue and red. Why can’t I remember the name.

Anyway sounds like I had better get a air dryer and proper filtration setup on our air lines and get any leaks in our dust collection system ironed out ASAP.

Man o man it is expensive to have a fully functioning shop. I have a home shop of my own with all the goodies except a widebelt for the most part. I guess there are lots of machines I don’t have that we do at work. Pocket hole machines, edge sanders blah blah but that might be it. This wide belt thing is expensive, yikes!

We us it all the time the more I think about it though we we kinda gotta have one we don’t have to worry about. I mean we don’t sit there and run piles of stock through it eight hours a day but it is on and off multiple times a day.




I have had good luck with my 3 head Kundig. It’s 15 years old now about the same vintage as the used one for sale. At that time they had 2 models of sanders. The heavier and better built ones were made in Switzerland and the lighter cost engineered ones made in Gotha Germany. If you are still looking at the used one I would check that out because the Swiss ones were more money at the time.

At the time we got this I was networking with some shops that had bought the same machine. Some were not happy and I think because they got a bad install. We were lucky and had a very good tech that spent 4 days setting it up and training. Multi head machines are tricky to calibrate and once you get it best to stay with the same belt mfg and type.

Good dust collection, servicing and clean compressed air are essential to keep these running at top performance. We did a lot of machinery upgrades 18 or so years ago and were having a lot of problems with existing machinery that used compressed air. I bit the bullet and put in a Kasser system and that solved all those issues.

Buying a used sander you need to be very careful.

[David Kumm]

Depending on the number of heads, a WB doesn't use a lot of air. I can run my single head off a Dental compressor. The big compressor with a big tank will have enough time for the air to cool in the tank so I doubt a dryer would be necessary. Other will know more. I have a dryer but generally only my dynabrades eat enough air that it is needed. Bigger sanders and CNC machines need a better set up. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Clean, cool, dry air solves a lot of problems across the board.

[Patrick Walsh]

The only reason I mentioned a air dryer is because as noted above when we sand the lines get pretty full of water. Our lines and drops are setup properly and still we have the problem. We run a “I don’t know” 5hp 80 gallon Quincy.

I’m the type that I take care of my stuff new or old, fancy or garbage. I have been given the go ahead to care for the shop and all it’s tools, with the understanding that not everyone has the discipline, desire, mechanical ability or attention to detail or motivation to be as anal retentive for such menial tasks.

I don’t know why I sign up for it other than the fact that my boss is a nice guy, I like working for him, he is pulled to many directions to do it all and I don’t wanna see his hard earned stuff get ruined.

So Joe what do you mean by clean air?

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick, I think a air drier at the least is a good investment in a pro shop. Busy shops, even 2 man can use a lot of air. Water and dirt in the lines will cause problems with everything. We had the traps at every drop and drained them weekly but still that was not enough. Several factors - black pipe and water in the line do not mix, we used air DAs for several years, someone was usually spraying in the finish room, combined with the stationary machines using air and blowing off parts and machines it adds up to a lot. If you wear out a compressor or have a old one that leaks oil into the system that will cause problems as well. Even our Kasser breathed a sigh of relief when we quit using air sanders on a regular basis.

We had problems with finish, major problem with a construction boring machine that all air actuated. Our Martin saw has a fence that locks with air and that was sticking and malfunctioning. If I were buying a used wide belt or any stationary machine that uses air I would want to know what the compressor situation was in the shop it came out of.

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow Joe pretty insightful comment with regard to wanting to know the air setup if buying a used stationary tool.

Really puts into perspective my oppinion that buying this machine “NEW” is the right decision. Further that making sure everything is done to insure it have a long successful life moving forward is tended to. Now the dilemma becomes how do I convince the boss of the importance of a air dryer.

Can you make the most economical suggestion you can for our need. Two three man shop. We sand with air all the time, Blum machine, pocket machine and widebelt use air everyday.

As stated it has kinda been deliberated to me that the machinery be taken care of as I’m the only one whom can be bothered to care combined with a general interest as I do like machines.

I can’t brake the bank though on this one as the boss and we all for the most part have our limitations. I try my best to respect this fact. I see it this way, if my boss is successful I am successful plus it’s just the right thing to do.

[peter gagliardi]

Talk to either a Kaeser rep, a Ingersoll Rand, or Atlas Copco rep. It used to be in MA that you could get either tax savings or a rebate of some sort for putting in a energy efficient compressor- in other words a small 7.5-15 hp rotary screw with VFD drive. They have engineered packages with the compressor and drier together. The savings was substantial when purchasing. The reps should know immediately about this.

[Martin Wasner]

I try my best to respect this fact. I see it this way, if my boss is successful I am successful plus it’s just the right thing to do.

Want a job? (One where you don't have to fix everything?) That's a dying attitude amongst the employed.

[Patrick Walsh]

It is,

It makes working with other employees that dont share the same perspective quite a challenge.

I have never understood the mentality in a small business environment. Generally any of the trades “that the boss is getting rich off of my back”. Quite the opposite from what I have seen after twenty years in the trades. Seems to me often it’s the boss carry the largest burden and working the hardest.

No way I’m gonna get the boss to purchase a new air compressor right now. The cash just is not there. With that said I need to find a way to insure his current setup does not compromise his new machine as economically as I can.

Everyone has their break point and I think he has reached his. It may sound like small money to many but I think this purchase will put him close to if not surpass the $50K mark spent on tools in less than a year. I know you can easily spend that on one machine but that’s just not out shop nor will it ever be.

Now my own personal shop. I have been socking away my pennies for a Martin slider ever since I purchased a Felder combo machine and wanted to shoot myself in the side of the head after the problems I had with it. I’m not trying to make money though in my shop for the most part. It’s more about enjoying my down time the way I want. Like driving a Porsche as apposed to Toyota.


Want a job? (One where you don't have to fix everything?) That's a dying attitude amongst the employed.

[David Kumm]

If you are having water in the air, you need a dryer so disregard what I said about not needing one. I have a Hi Temp dryer for my 5 hp - 80 gal compressor but don't need it for just the small widebelt or in winter much. I do use it all summer or when using close to the max 15 cfm my compressor can deliver. The amount of water in the air depends on not only the humidity but also how much the air is heated when compressed. The slower the pump runs the better. The old Quincy QR pumps were among if not the best made and generally ran on the slower side. You can tell by the pleasant put, put, put sound of them. Newer cheaper compressors ( including some of the lower end Quincys ) can run over 1000 rpm and the air gets hotter. It also depends on whether the pump is single or two stage. Two stage run less so the air can cool more in tank. Find out what type of refrigerated dryer will work best with your particular compressor for your type of usage. Regular dryers with an inlet temp of 110-120 can be found pretty regularly used but need to be low usage and fairly new. Repairing one that is used up costs more than buying new. The Hi temp 170+ inlet temp dryers are more expensive and may or may not be necessary. Hankinson makes a number of types and brands them both in their names and others. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick,
A shop with a few employees can be a quagmire of a money pit. When I did my upgrades I had been in business 25 years, times were good and I was taking advantage of section 179. More difficult now for sure.

I am out of the loop on what’s available now in compressors but some good suggestions above. Possibly just putting a drier on your existing compressor.

If if you get a better sander you might be able to get rid of the air sanders and go to the Festo or Mirka type. That will take a load off the system.

My 3 head sander is nice but way over kill for what we do. We bought that before we went to the Tersa head jointer, planer, S4S machine and tightened up our joinery. We could get by nicely with a light duty 2 head now.

[Patrick Walsh]

Can anyone tell me what they think about this compressor and air dryer?

The boss gave me the green light to tend to the air dryer problem.

If not this unit can someone suggest the units we should be looking at.

Pretty sure we have a 5hp two stage Quincy?

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/tls/d/air-compressor-and-dryer/6428829223.html

[Martin Wasner]

How many hours? What was the maintenance schedule?

[Joe Calhoon]

Yes, look at the hours and find out if they did the service. The downside to Kasser is the yearly service is expensive if their tech does it and time consuming plus about $250 - $300 in parts if you do it yourself. They also like to send a sample of the old oil in for testing.
i only do the major service on mine every 2 years now but with a crew every year. These compressors have a incredibly long life if taken care of.

[Mike Heidrick]

I am no expert and here is just what i have read and learned and am doing in my shed.

You can do quite a few things with your existing setup i am betting. Guessing it is an upright 1 or 2 stage pump and not a screw compressor.

The idea is to cool the air after it leaves the pump and before you store it. If you store warm air it condensates and you have to deal with water. Much like dust it is best dealt with in stages.

1. Put in an aftercooler line between pump and tank. 25'-50' of copper if you diy this. I am still adding this to mine.

2. Make sure you tank is being drained regularly. Install an auto drain. China now sells some cheap ones. They run on a timer and are short programmable bursts.

3. Install a Water separator where air leaves the tank and that should be a good deal higher than the bottom of your tank.

4. Orient your lines so they drain to nipples below any outlets on each drop and make sure they are drained regularly. They are supposed to drain away from your tank.

5. Orient any lines coming off the main branch where the t exits up not down. I am not doing this but it looks to be common in many commercial setups.

6. i use water separators and regulators at each drop as well.

7. If you do use an aftermarket drier consider running it after 15 to 20 of well drained of line has exited the compressor and preferably after running that through a water separator and desicant filter.

All of the these parts can be purchased cheaper on ebay and you can buy an aftermarket drier from many sources for considerably less than a major new air setup.

The reality is just adding a new compressor in similar quality and bolting a drier immediately next to it may not fix your problem with water.

[J.R. Rutter]

If you want to go new, these guys are a budget option. In the 6-7 years that I have owned one, I've just had one pressure sensor need replaced and have done my own oil and filter changes when the controller tells me to. I believe that the pump itself is German while the rest is Asian. Phone tech support in USA by Eaton. https://www.eatoncompressor.com/rotary-screw-compressors

I get zero water in the lines using their air dryer, but there is some oil blow by. So an oil mist filter would be needed for some applications.

[Mike Heidrick]

JR you run a screw compressor or reciprocating?

[Martin Wasner]

JR you run a screw compressor or reciprocating?


Probably a screw if he's getting oil. That's easily handled with after filters. They aren't cheap though, I think mine were almost $900 for the pair, but I was setting up the air system so I didn't have to do anything other than plumb the drop when the CNC hits the floor.

I drained my tank after 100 hours of use, zero water in the tank and I haven't seen any evidence of water in the system out in the shop. A good line dryer has to be cooling the air below the dew point to get it to condensate. I want to say after mine has ran a minute the air coming out of the dryer is about 45ºF depending on the ambient. I don't even think about it with an auto drain it just spits into a tube that's stuck into a floor drain 5' away. The tank has a manual drain, but unless something fails, there should be virtually nothing in the tank.

I've got an Atlas Copco screw, they recommended once a year or every 1000 hours to pull maintenance. Mine won't run 1000 hours in a year, so I'll be doing it annually. Some of it depends on environment too as far as the frequency goes. How clean is the air it's taking in, how dirty is the compressor itself getting, does that room get hot or is it temperature controlled? My compressor sits in my mechanical room with all of the electrical, it doesn't get super dirty in there, but with how the sliding doors are getting mounted on that room they aren't going to seal up very well. My thought was to put a blower in that filters the air pulled from the shop, then pressurizes the room so it's clean air getting blown in. Hopefully that keeps the room a little cleaner, and the air flow keeps the temps under control being closed up. With it wide open, it doesn't get much warmer in there than the shop, but closing it up is a different story. You could even set it up with a thermostat so the fan only runs when it gets so warm. No point in wasting sparks if you don't have to.

[J.R. Rutter]

JR you run a screw compressor or reciprocating?

Screw, yes. The 7.5 HP version.

There is an aftercooler built into the cabinet, and the air dryer is set up like Martin's with the auto drain tube stuck into a convenient drain. No water gets into the receiver tank.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m told the air dryer is in excellent condition “Like new” purchased this time last year new for $3700.

The compressor has many hours on it but is in perfect working order.

All the machinery was serviced regularly as needed in house.

Thoughts?

Is that a good deal and what is the risk in setting the whole thing up and the possibilities of things that could go worn with the compressor.

Also what does it really take to get the unit up and running. Anything I should know then getting it wired and connected to our air lines?

[Martin Wasner]

I’m told the air dryer is in excellent condition “Like new” purchased this time last year new for $3700.

The compressor has many hours on it but is in perfect working order.

All the machinery was serviced regularly as needed in house.

Thoughts?

Is that a good deal and what is the risk in setting the whole thing up and the possibilities of things that could go worn with the compressor.

Also what does it really take to get the unit up and running. Anything I should know then getting it wired and connected to our air lines?

It'll probably be fine, but I'm leery of how lazy people are when it comes to maintenance.

Shouldn't be anything to setting it up. Just make sure it's spinning the correct way. Screws don't like going backwards. More than a few seconds can cause damage.