Sliding table saw?

[Dave Cav]

I have a 12/14" Delta table saw and a 10" Powermatic 65. I'm considering upgrading to a 12" slider to both save some space and increase the level of safety. I build mostly furniture, passage doors, and the like, and don't do very much with sheet stock. However, I would like the ability to deal with full size sheets of plywood or melamine when necessary. I have zero experience with sliders, but I have yet to hear about anyone regretting getting one. I don't need computerized readouts and settings, just a basic model, and I would like to stick with either Minimax, Felder or possibly Hammer. Any recommendations or suggestions?

[Jim Becker]

I bought my MiniMax slider in about 2006 or so. Zero regrets. Yes...there's a learning curve, but the repeatability and increased safety for many cuts is a boon. And I work mostly with solid stock, although some projects do entail working with sheet goods. SCM/Minimax has an outstanding sale going on right now because of some minor rebranding coming. So it's a good time to consider the new machine. Felder is also very worthy. The one big thing that's different between these two is that SCM/Minimax pretty much packages things in a simple way with few options and uses standard tooling. Felder tends to be a "design your machine" purchase with a large library of options and has a more unique arbor that favors Felder tooling, although many vendors can supply blades with their bore and pin-holes.

[Dave Cav]

Thanks, Jim; which model slider do you have? I've looked at both the Felder and MiniMax website and the choices are pretty overwhelming and somewhat confusing. I have heard that due to the one off nature of the Felder machines the lead time can be considerable. I purchased a MiniMax 20" bandsaw last summer through Sam Blasco at SCM and was pretty happy with the entire experience.

[David Kumm]

There looks to be a nice Felder saw shaper combo on woodweb machinery exchange. Kind of gets you the shaper for free. Dave

[Marty Schlosser]

Dave,

I've had a Felder K700S slider since 2012 and can't see how I ever did without one. It replaced my Delta Unisaw that I'd outfitted with a JessEm 4' slider table.

Here's an excellent video that may help you appreciate the advantages and disadvantages of sliders: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmE9bhjfyhepnFlyXFkWwsQ

Incidentally, at first I missed having a zero-clearance throat plate, but as you can see from the video which follows, one can be made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X_vd-T3hqk&t=213s

[Kevin Jenness]

If you are comfortable with used machinery, you can step up a level with a Martin or Altendorf for similar money as a new Felder or MiniMax. Those saws were built to be used hard 40 hours a week for decades and stay in alignment.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dave, I've had my slider (Hammer B3 Winner) which is a saw/shaper with removable outrigger for 7 years.

Mine has scoring and dado capability.

Honestly, you could never convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.

MiniMax, Felder, Hammer, Altendorf make great products.

The Hammer/Felder advantage for me was that you can customize the machine to work exactly the way you want it. Mine is a short stroke slider (49") with full outrigger.

It allows me to crosscut a sheet of plywood or a dining room table top, and then become as small as a cabinet saw for space savings.

Watch lots of videos, Felder have some great ones, and look at all the options/capacities from all the manufacturers. You'll really love any of the machines you select.......Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, I have the S315WS slider. The deal on the current version at about 30% off is a smokin' opportunity, IMHO. The current version is nicer than I have and the sale price is really close to what I paid "a long time ago", if I recall clearly. Give Sam a ring and ask.

Rod does make and excellent point about Felder relative to the fact that customization can sometimes make one of these machines "more possible" for certain shop situations. And I also agree with him that I'd never want to go back to a traditional North American design cabinet saw...if I had to downsize, I'd get a smaller slider.

[Patrick Kane]

Mannnnnnnnnn, i wrote up this huge post and lost it.

Ahem, the short and sweet of my point. I have a 2004 Felder KF700 with 81" slider and the big crosscut fence and outrigger table. These machines are everything you dream of when it comes to crosscutting. I love the workflow and perfection of the process. My one gripe is traditional ripping. It has been downright awful, in my experience. You have to stand way to the left of the blade by the sliding table and feed your workpiece right to left. With the guard in place, a traditional pushstick is impossible to use, which results in using a piece of scrap like you are loading a muzzle loader. It is very poor indeed. This is really for ripping under 6". I can tell you i am extremely happy to still have the unisaw occupying a small footprint for this reason. I would urge you to keep the 65 until you get the slider in and use it for a bit.

Ive only had my machine a month or two, but these are my first impressions from using it quite a bit.

[Brian W Evans]

I bought a Minimax SC4 Elite exactly one year ago today. I love that machine both for sheet goods and solid wood. However, I would think carefully about whether or not it will save you space. A slider that can rip a full sheet of ply requires at least 20' length-wise for the slider and 12-15' width-wise for the outrigger and saw. The outrigger will be removable but many slider owners don't remove theirs - myself included. Even if you do remove it, you'll still need space to put it on and use it once in a while, and I wouldn't want to move my 1,500 lb saw around.

I stongly recommend Steve's (ExtremeWoodworker (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmE9bhjfyhepnFlyXFkWwsQ/feed)) series on sliding table saw purchase considerations before you make a decision.

Best of luck.

[Jim Becker]

My one gripe is traditional ripping. It has been downright awful, in my experience. You have to stand way to the left of the blade by the sliding table and feed your workpiece right to left. With the guard in place, a traditional pushstick is impossible to use, which results in using a piece of scrap like you are loading a muzzle loader. It is very poor indeed.

That's why many of us no longer do much ripping along the fence. Part of the learning curve is having new methods become automatic. The best quality cuts will always be with the material on the wagon. And for those times when a narrow rip is best served by the fence, removing the guard and using the fence in the low position permits good vision of the cut, the ability to use a proper push stick and you still remain out of the line of fire for a kickback, which is still less likely with the combination of the riving knife and the fence pulled back so once the material is clear of the blade, it's not going to bind.

[Brian W Evans]

My one gripe is traditional ripping. It has been downright awful, in my experience. You have to stand way to the left of the blade by the sliding table and feed your workpiece right to left. With the guard in place, a traditional pushstick is impossible to use, which results in using a piece of scrap like you are loading a muzzle loader. It is very poor indeed. This is really for ripping under 6". I can tell you i am extremely happy to still have the unisaw occupying a small footprint for this reason. I would urge you to keep the 65 until you get the slider in and use it for a bit.

With respect to Patrick, this has not been my experience. I occasionally rip something the way you would on an American cabinet saw but I don't have a problem reaching across the table or having the guard get in my way. To be fair, we have different saws so maybe his table is wider or his guard is bigger. On the other hand, with an 8' slider, you can use a Fritz and Franz jig (https://youtu.be/uVUgjr_Iw1w) (or a parallel rip setup (https://youtu.be/4xcjWUX4QqM)) to avoid the need to do American-style ripping for almost everything.

Edit: I meant to say that I agree with Patrick about keeping one American saw. It's nice for dadoes, tenons, small work, or just to have an additional saw. I also wanted to say that there is a benefit to standing on the far side of the table while ripping: no chance of catching kickback.

[Darcy Warner]

My issue is that I rarely use stock that is 8 feet or 10 feet short, meaning everything I rip is 12 to 20 feet. A slider is worthless for that. As gas as table saws go, nothing is faster ripping lumber than a big heavy saw with a stock feeder. I rarely use a TS anymore with two SLR's running.

[Patrick Kane]

All great counterpoints to mine. I mentioned FF jigs and parallel rip cut accessories in the lost longer post as possible work arounds for ripping narrow widths. I havent made a fritz and franz jig yet, which is probably a major oversight on my part. Too busy with a new job and trying to get the machine up and running while simultaneously working on 8 projects. The FF jig is simple and fast to put on and take off, but those parallel guides look like an annoying PITA to put on and then take off 2 minutes later to crosscut a piece and then put back on. I guess im not convinced of the slider as being the one stop perfect tool. Removing the guard to make a rip cut throws the whole "safer than a cabinet saw" arguement out the window from 20 stories up.

My points probably sound negative towards sliders, and they arent intended to be. In the short time ive used this machine, i can tell you it is brilliant and will be a part of my shop as long as i have space and the means. However, I dont think it is the end all be all of table saws. Just like the cabinet saw sucks are crosscutting and handling large work pieces. Each design has its pros and cons, which is why i advocate for having both. Especially in my case where the felder is my only shaper. I dont need two shapers or a stand alone, but i do need the ability to use a table saw if my shaper hood is in place. Cut the rails off your cabinet saw down to 20-24" if you have to, thats all you will use it for 99% of the time.

[Derek Cohen]

My issue is that I rarely use stock that is 8 feet or 10 feet short, meaning everything I rip is 12 to 20 feet. A slider is worthless for that. As gas as table saws go, nothing is faster ripping lumber than a big heavy saw with a stock feeder. I rarely use a TS anymore with two SLR's running.

Darcy, all one need do with a slider is lock it, and then you can use table saw the same way as a cabinet saw - rip long boards against the rip fence.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy, all one need do with a slider is lock it, and then you can use table saw the same way as a cabinet saw - rip long boards against the rip fence.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Right, but leaning over the beam, taking the table and fence off and then putting it back on is a time suck.

Plus I feel horribly uncomfortable ripping lumber like that.
My scmi si16w is gathering dust under my pallet racking.

[Dan Friedrichs]

My one gripe is traditional ripping. It has been downright awful, in my experience. You have to stand way to the left of the blade by the sliding table and feed your workpiece right to left. With the guard in place, a traditional pushstick is impossible to use, which results in using a piece of scrap like you are loading a muzzle loader. .

I switched from a cabinet saw to a slider, and somewhat agree with Patrick.

Think about this: a traditional cabinet saw really excels at ripping, but is poorly-optimized for crosscutting (unless you have an aftermarket miter gauge with rulers and stops, etc). A slider typically comes with a very nice crosscut fence system, making it ideal for crosscutting, although ripping is less convenient. The overall functionality seems much higher, on the slider - although you may have to change how you rip, you can console yourself with the much better crosscutting functionality :)

That said, I use a Fritz and Franz jig to rip most things using the slider. If I need to rip using the fence, I have a short-height, short-length fence.

[David Kumm]

I'm with Darcy. I have lots of sliders and my old SI 16 is a great panel goods saw and fine for hardwood but if I need to rip stock longer than 8', I'll take either a traditional saw with an outfeed table and if enough volume. a feeder. I don't do anywhere near enough for a SLR. If sheet goods were used rarely, a short stroke like Rod's with the slider sub base mounted flush with the front of the saw would be my choice. My solution is always to have more than one. Kind of a disease. Dave

[Mike Spray]

I’ve got a Felder 700S pro with a 9’ slider. It replaced a powermatic 66 about 2001. No problem ripping and I also have a shoe that mounts on the slider to be able to rip what we now call “live edge” which does a job a fence can’t (without a jig anyway). What I miss but understand is no longer an issue is an arbor that can mount a dado blade. Anyway, although I’ve got the huge crosscut table for sheet goods, I seldom use it as I favor the ease of my Festool track setup. It takes serious space. I’m set up in a garage so have to open the door to be able to use the slider for infeed. I also have 3 phase motors so had to get a phase converter. Would I do it again? Probably not but the die is cast as they say.

[Mike Wilkins]

I went through the usual progression from a contractors type saw, to a Delta Unisaw to a Laguna short stroke slider (6 foot slider) and love the safety aspects of it. No longer do my fingers come close to the blade when making a cut. Sliders excel at cross cutting, but I have ripped using both the rip fence and on the wagon with hold down accessories, which in my opinion is the finest way to rip a board to width.
Having said that, I also have a conventional table saw that is used mainly for ripping and molding type cuts. While I can run a dado on the slider, I only use this blade on the 2nd saw. Nice to have both if you have the room.

[Jim Becker]

My issue is that I rarely use stock that is 8 feet or 10 feet short, meaning everything I rip is 12 to 20 feet. A slider is worthless for that. As gas as table saws go, nothing is faster ripping lumber than a big heavy saw with a stock feeder. I rarely use a TS anymore with two SLR's running.
Clearly, the work you do isn't suited to certain types of machinery but is handled well with others. That is ultimately the important decision point. For many of us, like the OP, it's more about traditional cabinet saw vs slider. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages. I've come to really love the slider for the consistency and general safety it brings to me. But in the end...it just cuts wood. :)

[Dave Cav]

All good information; thanks for the input. Sam got back to me and suggested a Minimax SC4E. I think that might actually be too much saw for the room I have; I was thinking more about an SC3. Anyway, I don't want to rush into things as it would be a huge change for the way I work and might mean getting rid of my RAS, one shaper and my 12/14 table saw. I'm pretty set in my ways and am used to breaking stock down on the RAS and and 12" TS, but the ability to work with live edge stock and large sheet goods are also attractive. I'm going to try to find some local shops with sliders and talk to them about their experiences before I make any decisions, and in any case I'm in the middle of building a house (shop is already finished!) and making all the interior doors (18 in all) and running all of the trim and molding. Everything is stain grade alder and it's been a time consuming project, although I am on #15 of 18 doors. I want to get the house finished before I even consider reorganizing the shop. It may end up being postponed until the next AWFS show.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, I break down lumber on my CMS just like you do with your RAS. As Sam for local references. Do the same of Felder. That's generally the best way to get to see these machines; either the one you're looking to buy or at least something similar. Many of us who are owners "regularly" accept visits from prospective buyers...it seems to be the way the Euro machine market works in the US.

[Joshua Bass]

I am moving to a slider / shaper combo whenever I have the funds to do so. I have seen enough to know the benefits are tremendous. I am looking at the Minimax ST4 or even ST5 vs Felder KF 700s. The Felder seems to have some nice bells and whistles, but I am blown away with the Minimax bandsaw I purchased so I may stick with them.

[mreza Salav]

Dave, I love to get a saw/shaper combo. What prices ranges in US you can get a SC4e for, if I may ask?
You have 18 passage doors to make, eh? I went through 31 of them for our house (along with a whole bunch of other things). I wish I had a slider then but was working out of a basement shop and didn't have the room. Now at a garage (that I have already outgrown) I might swap my cabinet saw and shaper for a combo if/when surplus funds are available.

[Mike King]

The solution to ripping is parallel fences. Brian Lamb’s are excellent (Lamb Toolworks).

Mike

[Julie Moriarty]

Speaking just to sliders in general, every time I see an article on making a table saw sled I am happy I bought a slider years ago. It's nothing fancy but it works well. Even when I'm not using it with the fence, I use it to help glide sheet goods through the cut. I've had it for about 25 years.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7W8AAOSwPhdVNT~A/s-l300.jpg
(not my saw but the same slider)

[Joe Jensen]

After over 30 years on cabinet saws (serious hobbyist) I moved to a Felder FK700SP in 2010. I currently only have space for one saw and I would never go back to just a cabinet saw. In the new shop I will have a lot more space and I'll add a cabinet saw with a feeder for ripping. For me the ability to cut perfectly square anything up to 9 ft. Even if you don't use sheet goods, anything I want to be square is, and the cut quality for rips 9ft and under when clamped to the slider rival those coming off the jointer. For large heavy planks the rip off the slider is likely straighter than off my jointer. With the parallel guides I can rip parts that are within a few thousands of each other. I've used this several times to make forms with MDF and the repeatability is amazing.

[Jim Becker]

Joe, I haven't actually used my jointer for board edges in a very long time...as you note, the quality of the edge when the board is ripped clamped to the wagon is outstanding (glue ready, IMHO) and I avoid the extra step of edge-jointing. I only flatten and thickness at the J/P now.

[Jon Snider]

The solution to ripping is parallel fences. Brian Lamb’s are excellent (Lamb Toolworks).

Mike

This is a slightly old thread but beats starting a new one, right?

I’ve read this a few time and watched some videos but still don’t see how the parallel fences (including the very nice ones I recently looked at on Lamb site) help make the rip longer than the slider. They’re still attached to the sliding table, correct?

Do you actually push the wood so that it slides on the table at the end of the table excursion, like the sled jigs some use?

Its certainly possible or even likely I’m missing something here.

[Jim Becker]

Jon, a parallel guide doesn't help with ripping material longer than the wagon. What folks use for that would be a sled that runs in the slot that's typically on the top of a slider's wagon so that you get the full throw of the slider plus the extra length that the sled gives using the slot as a guide. This is quite often how folks with a short slider will process material longer than they can with just the wagon alone.

Parallel guides, on the other hand, including the so-called "Fritz and Franz" jigs work best with material shorter than the wagon. You get the benefit of the precise cut that comes with moving the material through the blade in an extremely stable way...something that's pretty impossible to do with one's hands pushing a board along a fence where small variations in hand pressure, etc., affect the cutting precision.

[Jon Snider]

Thanks Jim. That’s the way I understood it from the videos. I’ve seen the one with the slider sled too.

Seems like at a a certain point, if you need 14’ gunwale stock it is best just ripped traditionally on the rip fence. I’ve been told by I think it was Sam B that the MM fence is nicer than the Biesenmeyer on my PM. So, reasons to keep PM 66 are disappearing.

[Jim Becker]

Euro machines typically have a high/low fence like the old UniFence was configured. And yes, truly long stock can and probably should be ripped using the fence. Just keep in mind that you will have to get used to standing in a different position with most sliders for that because of how they are built to support the wagon. No big deal...just different. And out of the "line of fire", too. :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes the Euro fences are nicer to use, giving you the choice of two heights and the ability to use it as a short fence for increased safety when ripping solid material, or using it a s a length stop for cross cutting..........Regards, Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks Jim. That’s the way I understood it from the videos. I’ve seen the one with the slider sled too.

Seems like at a a certain point, if you need 14’ gunwale stock it is best just ripped traditionally on the rip fence. I’ve been told by I think it was Sam B that the MM fence is nicer than the Biesenmeyer on my PM. So, reasons to keep PM 66 are disappearing.

Jon, I kept a nice Unisaw for years after I got my slider, and it just got progressively less and less use. It ended up becoming a "jobsite" saw on a long term major remodel, and last year I finally sold it. The only thing that a slider won't do is be portable, so I still have a Dewalt folding saw. I'd kept the Uni because I thought I'd keep it as a dado machine but it just wasn't worth losing that much shop space for that one function that it turned out, was fairly rare in my shop. Especially when the slider does it better, with minimal fuss.

[Rod Sheridan]

Removing the guard to make a rip cut throws the whole "safer than a cabinet saw" arguement out the window from 20 stories up.



Hi Patrick, I'm curious about the comment regarding removing the guard for a rip cut.

Do you do that, and why?

Regards, Rod.

[John Kee]

Jon, a parallel guide doesn't help with ripping material longer than the wagon. What folks use for that would be a sled that runs in the slot that's typically on the top of a slider's wagon so that you get the full throw of the slider plus the extra length that the sled gives using the slot as a guide. This is quite often how folks with a short slider will process material longer than they can with just the wagon alone.

Parallel guides, on the other hand, including the so-called "Fritz and Franz" jigs work best with material shorter than the wagon. You get the benefit of the precise cut that comes with moving the material through the blade in an extremely stable way...something that's pretty impossible to do with one's hands pushing a board along a fence where small variations in hand pressure, etc., affect the cutting precision.

Sorry Jim but I completely disagree with your parallel guide statement but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Its too broad based a statement, I routinely do over length rips for glue up ready boards instead of jointing. The only reason to use a sled IMHO would for mini sliders under 80" and for people with on a budget. In any type of production environment they are to time consuming to setup and take away precious blade height. Like in the posted video.

Jon yes you are missing something that I thought the pics cleared up. The guides are stable and accurate. Anyways use whatever method suits your fancy, you will only understand the benefits if you try. Those of that do this as a profession do have a few tricks that we occasionally share but its truly becoming harder.

[Jim Becker]

John, I'd like to hear how you do a parallel rip on the wagon where the material is longer than the normal cut length possible...your technique might come in handy at some point.

[John Kee]

This is what I posted on Jon Sniders Slider thread about over length cutting using parallel guides. I don't do videos but there are 4 pics of the procedure along with an explanation. I hate the same discussion over multiple threads like these forums are becoming famous for so this is my last post. Anyway PM me if you have questions.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?264675-Euro-slider-vs-cabinet-saw&p=2811641#post2811641

[Jim Becker]

Ok, thanks, John. I see what you're doing, although one of the reasons I like ripping on the slider is the ability to lock the material down on the wagon. Clearly, the method you describe does require moving the board independently through the blade for the first part of the cut. But I guess that's not a terrible compromise for a very long board.

[Jon Snider]

Sorry John. I somehow missed those on the other thread. I get it now. Thx.

[Matthew Springer]

As someone who bought a used Hammer K3 last October (thanks John), I am very happy and won't ever be going back to a standard cabinet saw. I found the learning curve was really not that bad. I got adjusted to it almost instantly and have never actually used the saw in "classic rip" mode sine I've owned it. All sled all the time.

The ability to lock down a cut and stand two feet to the side is so much better that I am shocked I ever thought getting anywhere near to blade was a good idea.

That said the Hammer K3 is a great saw, but it's got some rough edges engineering wise. Roger Xue is a friend of mine and his blog review is out there and does a pretty good job going through some of the issues. My main one is the factory dust control just isn't that great.