A Table Saw consult.

[Caspar Hauser]

Good morning all,

My workplace is interested in replacing the tablesaw in the facilities/maintenance department.

The shop is required to deal with a wide variety of tasks, and the saw will be used for all kinds of things, by a variety of operators, from ripping wet pt framing, to sizing plywood, to making cabinetry and furniture.

As I understand it 3 phase is available if required.

There is no room for a slider.

It is unlikely that a used machine will be considered for purchase.

Dust extraction is a big issue, so an enclosed base/cabinet saw, left tilt?, 3 - 5 hp?, 10 or 12”?

A riving knife, useable/rational guard system.

I'm not sure as to the budget, but it is a public institution, so they will be wanting to get the best value for your dollar they can, and I'm trying to squeeze a hollow chisel morticer out of this too.

Should safety features bubble to the top of the alchemical purchasing cauldron then as far as I know Sawstop is the only game in town and that will be that, but orderwise any suggestions would very welcome.

Cheers in advance

CH

[Simon MacGowen]

Here for public institutions and for cabinet saws, SawStop is the only option available to us when old saws are replaced. Private businesses are free to do what they want, but many are also following the same path because of insurance and litigation concerns. Previously, Bosch Reaxx was a potential alternative but disappeared too soon to make any mark. SawStop's dust collection is pretty robust with its dust guard/overarm extraction.

If budget is an issue, consider a second hand SawStop or check with SawStop if it has any support program for public services in your area.

Simon

[Caspar Hauser]

Thanks for the reply Simon.

I suspect that we'll end up with a Saw Stop, for the reasons you outline.

My only interaction with a Saw Stop was in a commercial production environment and was not a favourable one, we could never get the blade to drop below the table for some reason we couldn't determine, and it was a coin toss as to wether it would start when you hit the button.

We just didn't have the time to fiddle with it, it saw little use.

I have read that the cartridge will fire if it hits metal like a staple, or in certain types of pressure treated wood, is this true or is this a past problem? If not, I can see it being a not infrequent event.

Cheers

CH

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks for the reply Simon.

I have read that the cartridge will fire if it hits metal like a staple, or in certain types of pressure treated wood, is this true or is this a past problem? If not, I can see it being a not infrequent event.

Cheers

CH

The best answer should come from the saw company. You can find the number or contact form on sawstop.com.

The manual provides you instructions on how to test if a wet wood may or may not trigger the brake. If and when unsure, you can always disable the brake feature with a key for those particular cuts.

Having been a sawstop user for almost 12-1/2 years, I have never worried about the cost of replacing the cartridge/blade. Peanuts compared to the value of my digits.

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

For the light use it'll see and the variety of uneducated operators, go with the sawstop.

I feel 5hp is a minimum for a tablesaw, you can certainly get by with less, but nobody ever complains that a tablesaw has too much power. Though with a small motor if something goes sideways you can stall it out pretty easily.

[Rod Sheridan]

If you have room for a cabinet saw, you have room for a small slider which will be more accurate and easier to use than a cabinet saw.

I have the Hammer with the 48 inch sliding table, same footprint as a cabinet saw, yet it can crosscut a sheet of plywood, and has a scoring saw so you can get perfect faces on melamine or veneered plywood.

They also have better dust collection and a 3 function fence that is far safer than the standard NA offering.

There's no way I would ever go back to a cabinet saw.

If you're stuck with a cabinet saw, the only one to consider for commercial use is the SawStop..................Regards, Rod.

[Martin Wasner]

If you're stuck with a cabinet saw, the only one to consider for commercial use is the SawStop..................Regards, Rod.

This statement is a false absolute.

[jack duren]

If you have room for a cabinet saw, you have room for a small slider which will be more accurate and easier to use than a cabinet saw.

I have the Hammer with the 48 inch sliding table, same footprint as a cabinet saw, yet it can crosscut a sheet of plywood, and has a scoring saw so you can get perfect faces on melamine or veneered plywood.

They also have better dust collection and a 3 function fence that is far safer than the standard NA offering.

There's no way I would ever go back to a cabinet saw.

If you're stuck with a cabinet saw, the only one to consider for commercial use is the SawStop..................Regards, Rod.

Why would it be more accurate and easier to use?
I use the Altendorf and Sawstop side by side. Explain...
I'm actually faster with the Sawstop. Too many years of cutting out commercial jobs with the Powermatic I guess ....

[Derek Cohen]

I am biased to the very model Hammer K3 that Rod mentions, as I have one. I compared it very carefully with the Sawstop before purchasing it about three months ago. Before this, I had a large contractor type 3hp table saw with Biesemeyer fence for 20 years.

The advantage of the K3 is that it has a smaller footprint with the slider locked into table saw mode. The slider is a big safety feature, and this one I have (49") is small enough to make the machine manageable in very small shop (mine is part of my garage). 4 hp is probably enough for all tasks, and there are other features that can be added, if specified (dado head, spindle molder, etc). It is definitely a machine to consider alongside the Sawstop.

https://s19.postimg.org/5eg8iijz7/11a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Marc Jeske]

Derek - Dang !!

After viewing your image above I have to go read about not coveting again in the Good Book.

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

I would never want some rough carp banging heavy wet 2x's against a accurate fence, finely tuned saw w a prime blade... and then expect to use it for cabinet work w/o checking everything.

Maybe you have no choice w one saw to use for all.

Anyway, Re: Sawstop nuisance triggers - Wet Treated wood, etc. -

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?184016-Sawstop-Question

Marc

[Mike Cutler]

Slider, or Sawstop, just for the protection/mitigation of litigation.

I disagree that you don't have room for a slider. If you can size a 4x8 sheet of plywood right now, you have enough room.

[Caspar Hauser]

Thanks for the input guys.

CH

[Roger Feeley]

Casper,

My concern is the wet pressure treated wood. Sawstop REALLY, REALLY doesn't want you to bypass the safety system.

to bypass:
-- Boot up the saw as normal using the smaller of the two switches.
-- Before pulling the start paddle button, turn the supplied key for at least two seconds until you get a light condition
-- Pull the start paddle button and continue holding the key for a couple more seconds.

Now you have a regular table saw with no flesh detection and you can saw wet wood. If you leave the saw running, you can cut the wet stuff all day. But if you turn off the saw, you have to go through the above procedure the next time you want to start the saw.

That's fine if you have one or two operators that know all this. But you mentioned that you would have many untrained operators. It seems to me that the likelyhood of brake fires would be pretty high if someone forgets. Those can be expensive. The brake is $80 last I checked and then it will probably ruin the blade (not always).

[Rod Sheridan]

Why would it be more accurate and easier to use?
I use the Altendorf and Sawstop side by side. Explain...
I'm actually faster with the Sawstop. Too many years of cutting out commercial jobs with the Powermatic I guess ....

Hello Jack, I'm interested in how you square a sheet of material on the cabinet saw as easily and accurately as using the slider?

Regards, Rod.

[Jerome Stanek]

Casper,

My concern is the wet pressure treated wood. Sawstop REALLY, REALLY doesn't want you to bypass the safety system.

to bypass:
-- Boot up the saw as normal using the smaller of the two switches.
-- Before pulling the start paddle button, turn the supplied key for at least two seconds until you get a light condition
-- Pull the start paddle button and continue holding the key for a couple more seconds.

Now you have a regular table saw with no flesh detection and you can saw wet wood. If you leave the saw running, you can cut the wet stuff all day. But if you turn off the saw, you have to go through the above procedure the next time you want to start the saw.

That's fine if you have one or two operators that know all this. But you mentioned that you would have many untrained operators. It seems to me that the likelyhood of brake fires would be pretty high if someone forgets. Those can be expensive. The brake is $80 last I checked and then it will probably ruin the blade (not always).

Leaving the saw run is a bad idea as someone might come by and knock something in it. I saw a piece go through a wall when some one came by carrying a sheet of wood and bumped the blade.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

untrained operators? No, please no.

For me, safety is one of the primary concerns, which is why I have a sawstop. I don't really know much about sliders, so keep that in mind.


So, what are the primary safety concerns with a saw? Most people are immediately worried about hand blade contact. For this, SawStop seems to come out on top. From the rhetoric I hear, I assume that the slider is designed to keep the hands away from the blade. I am unsure how this works for people running "small" things through the saw. I can't imagine that a slider helps a lot with this, but, I am ignorant for a slider. For a regular table saw, the answer seems to be a sled. With a SawStop, you probably have some legal protection since there should not be a serious issue unless there is a hardware failure in the machine or some extra creativity on the part of the user (or running wet stuff with safety features disabled).

How about kick-back? My uneducated guess is that kick-back is more common than hand to blade contact. On the SawStop, a user can still remove safety guards that help prevent kick-back. Does a slider reduce kick-back risk?

Dado blade..... It is my understanding that in the EU, they do not allow this, but I could be mistaken. How is this done on a slider? I think that Derek mentioned an attachment that you can use.


Based on this article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154236/) the most common injury is related to cuts from the blade. I would be more inclined to say that the most common injury that is serious enough to go to the hospital is related to cuts from the blade. I guess that most injuries from kickback do not require a doctor visit.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2010/02/18/new-study-discusses-tablesaw-injuries

[Alan Lightstone]

I just spent all night keeping someone asleep while a surgeon attempted to reattach virtually every important structure in someone's hand who had a table saw accident. I sadly have to do this multiple times a year.

I bought a SawStop for myself. Was a total no-brainer for me. The Felder guys tried to talk me into a slider, which was impressive, but when my own money and hands were on the line, I chose the SawStop.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Andrew, yes sliders can have dado capability, mine does, and yes it can be used in the EU as long as the saw still meets guarding and blade braking time parameters with a dado cutter mounted.

Small stuff on a slider is often done with a "Fritz und Franz" jig on the sliding table which holds small pieces keeping your fingers away from the blade.

The slider often uses clamps to hold material so blade contact is minimized, and many sliders also have the capability to use a stock feeder........Regards, Rod.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hi Andrew, yes sliders can have dado capability, mine does, and yes it can be used in the EU as long as the saw still meets guarding and blade braking time parameters with a dado cutter mounted.

Small stuff on a slider is often done with a "Fritz und Franz" jig on the sliding table which holds small pieces keeping your fingers away from the blade.

The slider often uses clamps to hold material so blade contact is minimized, and many sliders also have the capability to use a stock feeder........Regards, Rod.

Thanks Rod..... I vaguely remember the term "Fritz und Franz", but I had to look it up and I do not remember seeing it previously. Brilliant.

I really appreciate the clarifications on this.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Rod..... I vaguely remember the term "Fritz und Franz", but I had to look it up and I do not remember seeing it previously. Brilliant.

I really appreciate the clarifications on this.

You're welcome Andrew...............Rod