Low angle jack or Dedicated Shooting Plane?

[Lucas Elef]

I'm looking at picking up new plane from Lee Valley with the discounted gift cards i got on cyber Monday.
I'm new to woodworking in general so i'm spending time building a roubo workbench, shooting board, sharpening stone holder and such.
However, once i finish those tools i plan to mostly do luthier type stuff (ukulele first and foremost), and tool chests with lots of little drawers. Nothing too big as i'm working in a small spare bedroom of my house. While building the workbench i realized if i had to dimension lumber with hand tools i'd give up on the hobby, so i picked up a Makita 2012NB lunchbox planer. Now that i can dimension lumber quickly i'm focusing on other hand skills. I realize the value in the shooting board as i regularly want to square up smaller boards (and don't want to buy an electric jointer as i'm trying to keep my power tools to a minimum becuase of space), but using the one i built has been an exercise in frustration. I think this is partly due to my #4 and #7 Stanley are not perpendicular in the castings, but also because the #4 is too short, the #7 is too long, and they are hard to hold while shooting. So i realize my next purchase will be something to improve my shooting, and the low angle jack is cheaper and more versatile, but i'm struggling to figure out what i might use it for beyond shooting. On the other hand i can spend $100 more and get a dedicated shooting plane which looks to be more comfortable to use, but will only be good for shooting. I don't mind spending the money on the dedicated shooting plane if it indeed will improve my shooting and be more comfortable to use.

Do you have any thoughts whether i should get the low angle jack or the dedicated shooting plane?

[Chet R Parks]

Lucas, This was just discussed last month. See here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259126-Veritas-Shooting-plane-vs-my-lN-LAJ-for-shooting

[Lucas Elef]

Thanks, there's some good information in there. One thing i did note was that most people seemed to already have a Low Angle Jack Plane. Will i be missing out by not having a LAJ as i get further along in my woodworking? I probably won't buy another plane for a while after this purchase.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Lucas, my early efforts at shooting with a Bailey style plane were frustrating. The grip that works for me is to place my thumb on the adjuster knob. The rest of my hand sort of wraps around the frog and blade. I find the heavier plane works better for me. If you experiment you may be able to find a grip that works better for you with the planes you have.

[Chet R Parks]

Lucas,
Yes, you may feel that you will miss out not having a LAJ in the future but you can say the same about not having a dedicated shooter. That is a decision you have to make based on your work methodology. The LAJ is a popular plane, you may have a better chance of picking up a used LAJ as opposed to a dedicated shooting plane later on. Good luck on your decision.

[Robert Hazelwood]

If you are able to use your #4 and #7 well for bench plane tasks, then there would not be much use for the LAJ *except* for shooting. And the shooting plane seems much nicer for that, in particular the skewed blade and handle orientation.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Lucas,

I have the LV shooting plane but do not have a LA Jack. I am quite content and will note that I have used the shooting plane to plane end grain freehand as one would with LA Jack. A bit awkward, but doable. Regardless, the shooting plane is quickly becoming my favorite, especially for the small and med scale work you describe.

Best of luck deciding.

[Jim Koepke]

The advantage of the Low Angle Jack is it can be used either left or right handed. For some shooting tasks this is a handy feature. Derek Cohen made a "hot dog" handle for his LAJ. It looks like there are two posts at the top of this page:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/index.html

Here is one made for a Stanley/Bailey bench plane:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130114-Shooting-Board-Plane&p=1320425#post1320425

The dedicated shooter might be a bit awkward for non-shooting board tasks but would likely be a bit better at shooting. The lower effective angle would cut with a little less work and likely leave a slightly smoother finish.

Not having used a dedicated shooter my only comment about the comfort of use is that my LAJ, an LN #62 is a touch awkward even with a hot dog handle on the shooting board. For my needs it is find. If you are going to do a lot of shooting a dedicated plane may be the best choice for doing one job and doing it better.

For other situations where a Low Angle Jack would be useful a Low Angle Block Plane might be the choice.

Over time my LAJ has become my dedicated shooter. It sees occasional use at other tasks.

jtk

[Lucas Elef]

Thank you all for the insight. At this point i'm leaning towards getting the dedicated shooting plane as i have a current need for it, and the LAJ seems seems to be more for versatility which i won't really be needing at this time.
Now i just need Lee Valley to offer a free shipping event!

[Dave Parkis]

I suspect free shipping will occur shortly after Christmas. I've specifically asked for gift cards.

[Robert Engel]

I have a LA jack and the hotdog attachment for shooting. Works OK, but the truth is, I grab my #6 for shooting almost exclusively. The extra mass makes a difference for me, especially when shooting boards >6" wide. Yes, after a while your hands know it, but once you figure out the best grip, its really not an issue.

In retrospect, for me in my work, the LA jack has not been the highly used plane I thought it would be. Right or wrong, 90% of what I use it for is endgrain like cleaning up dovetails.

If I may give some unsolicited advice, I think the temptation to buy a tool is something to deal with, especially a novice. We've all been there and have drawers and shelves full of tools we never use or only used for a season.

I've learned the value of taking time to evaluate a purchase for a dedicated and/or expensive tool. I think this is a good approach even if funds are not an issue.

If I were a serious hand tool-only guy, a shooting plane would definitely be in my arsenal. Good luck you will definitely enjoy it!

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Lucas, in my amateur experience, once I got shooting plane, #4, #7 and scrub plane, learned how to use chip breaker - Low Angle Jack sits unused (along with low angle jointer and smoother). It was my first plane, together with a low angle block plane. Also, I didn't expect that I would get so many planes after couple of years, and that planes with double iron are so good. So, try to expect that, if you can! :)

I do use it sometimes when grain direction is already known from double iron planes and I want to use less power to remove some material. But not really necessary, at my current stage.

Those four planes that I listed, that's all I need to go from rough sawn timber to flat stock with square edges and ends (6S?).

[Stewie Simpson]

So a modern low bed angle bevel up plane with a 12° bed angle and a 25° bevel angle would have a 37° cutting angle. If you increase the bevel angle of the blade to 30° (probably the most common honing angle), the cutting angle will increase to 42°, which is very close to the cutting angle of a traditional bevel down plane.http://brfinewoodworking.com/planing-end-grain/

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

http://brfinewoodworking.com/planing-end-grain/

Yep, agree with Stewie. Low angle plane is not required to plane end grain. I realized that after planing end grain with #7 with nice shavings. In fact, I think #7 is the most universal bench plane for me now. Maybe #6 for those with smaller hands and not so strong.

[Derek Cohen]

I think that there is a misunderstanding about bevel angles and planing end grain (plus it is evident that there are those that make this into a macho thing about working tough).

Firstly, you can indeed plane end grain with any angle (within reason :)). Many years ago I used to use a HNT Gordon Trying Plane on a shooting board. This has a 60 degree bed for a 60 degree cutting angle. It had no difficulty in this task.

However ...

There are two major advantages to shooting end grain with a low cutting angle. One is that the resulting surface will be smoother or clearer than with a higher cutting angle. The second is that the blade's edge will last longer with the lower angle. I have tested the latter a number of time. Here is an article that records one such time: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

Hello Lucas,

I have the LV shooting plane but do not have a LA Jack. I am quite content and will note that I have used the shooting plane to plane end grain freehand as one would with LA Jack. A bit awkward, but doable. Regardless, the shooting plane is quickly becoming my favorite, especially for the small and med scale work you describe.

Best of luck deciding.

I was shooting some parts for a current project when the wife walked into the shop. When I finished the current operation I looked up and noticed her. She said "I remember when you used to look at me that way". I assured her that her place in my heart was secure. Definitely a solid smidgen or two higher on the scale than my shooting plane.

[Phil Mueller]

Stewie, thanks for sharing that article. Was very imforming to me. Perhaps it speaks volumes to my sharpening skills...finding a less than super sharp LA plane more forgiving on end grain, along with the mass and skewed angle of the shooting plane. Nonetheless, “sharp” does seem to be the solution for many issues.

[Matt Evans]

In retrospect, for me in my work, the LA jack has not been the highly used plane I thought it would be. Right or wrong, 90% of what I use it for is endgrain like cleaning up dovetails.



I am actually considering getting a LAJ just for cleaning up dovetails. I use a low angle block plane now, but the block planes are just too small for using for an extended period of time for me. Its fine on small drawers and boxes, but on case work my hands start cramping up in short order.

Not sure that a luthier would need one for the same operation though.

Shooting, I tend to use a #6,#7 or #8. The mass, as mentioned by someone else earlier, helps quite a bit in harder woods, particularly in 5"+ wide material.

[Jim Koepke]

My shooting used to often be done with a standard bench plane. Sometimes it would be done with a low angle block plane. Many years ago an accident messed up my right shoulder. The impact of a bench plane taking a shaving was more than the LA block plane. This led me to the decision to purchase a low angle jack plane. At the time the shooting planes were not yet available nor even under discussion.

The LA Jack blade is still at 25º and is likely to stay there.

Without the equipment of analysis my experience is all that backs up my finding. The bevel up blade honed at 25º + 12º bed for a total of 37º leaves a better surface than a standard bench plane's angle of attack at 45º.

There may be a couple of factors involved in this. To me it appears the low angle is shearing the wood whereas the bench plane is more or less pushing the wood. The low angle has more of a tendency to lift the wood as it cuts. This is great on end grain but can be a problem going with the grain. The 'pushing' of the end grain by a higher angle of attack can separate the fibers and leave what looks like tear out but is actually grain separation.

Just my 373393.

As always, 373394

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

BTW, if shooting planes were available at the time of purchasing my LA Jack my choice may have been different. The good point is it may have been my choice to purchase the right hand version. With my bad shoulder, that would have been a mistake. Now days almost all of my shooting is done left handed.

jtk

[Ron Patrick]

I got a LV laj for shooting and it worked well, then LV came out with their shooting plane. After reading Derek Cohen's comparison of the different shooting planes, I decided to get a LV shooting plane and I couldn't believe how much better it worked. It is such a pleasure to use, they will have to pry it from my cold, dead hands. The laj is a wonderful bench plane, so it gets plenty of use also.

[Stewie Simpson]

The LA Jack blade is still at 25º and is likely to stay there.

https://paulsellers.com/2014/10/custom-sharpening-your-bevel-up-jack-plane/
Reading between the lines becomes ever important when considering plane makers. Most if not all of the bevel-up low-angle plane makers, sellers and so on currently producing and or selling BU planes will write in their promotions stating the plane irons are ground and polished out at 25-degrees primarily to prove that the planes present the lowered bevel cutting edge at a the lower angle than the bench planes with bevel down irons installed, which are generally bedded on a regular bed of 45-degrees. This really isn’t altogether true. They state that the combined angle will be 12-degrees for the bed and 25-degrees for the iron and so total the two out as a presentation of 37-degrees. In reality the cutting edge is quite weak and you’d be better off grinding and polishing out at least 30-degrees on an O1 blade and the very least 35- degrees for A2 blades. https://paulsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DSC_00584.jpg (https://paulsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DSC_00584.jpg)That would mean the O1 steel iron would present very close to the bevel down plane at 42-degrees and the A2 iron would in fact be higher at 47-degrees.

https://knowledge.axminster.co.uk/o1-a2-or-pm-v11-which-steel-is-for-you/

To summarise:
O1 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 30°
A2 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 33-35°
PM-V11 – grind at 25° and hone at 33° for low-angle planes; grind at 25° and hone at 30° for ordinary Bailey planes.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I am no big fan of A2, but it holds up fine for me with a 25 degree bevel in my LN 60-1\2. Same for PM-V11 in a Veritas Jack Rabbet (15° bed). For me the whole point of bevel up planes is to utilize a low cutting angle, so sharpening at 30 degrees or higher defeats the purpose.
My experience is different on bevel-down planes. A2 did not perform well with a 30 degree bevel, and was only marginal at 35 degrees. I changed that blade in favor of a Hock O1 iron, which performs ideally at 30 degrees (fails gradually from wear, not from chipping).
I think the force on the edge is different (more in-line) in a low angle bevel up plane, such that it can tolerate a lower angle.

[Derek Cohen]

The article by Paul Sellers has erroneous information. One example is this: "The BU plane iron meets the same demands as the bevel down and you should treat the iron the same way after determining the pitch of the bevel in relation to the steel type if you so decide to change it."

This is simply not true, especially when it comes to planing end grain. I have demonstrated time and again that, on a shooting board, a A2 blade with a 25 degree bevel in a BU (12 degree bed) plane will by far outlast a a similar A2 blade in a BD (common angle bed, 45 degrees). In fact, the 25 degree in a BU will outlast a BD plane with a 30 degree bevel. By far!

There is a reason for this. The BU is shooting at 37 degrees. The BD plane is shooting at 45 degrees. The latter has more "impact" when striking the wood than the former. There is also less cutting and more of a scraping action with the higher angle blade. These two factors together increase wear and damage to the blade edge.

I have used a LV LA Jack to shoot end grain for at least 10 years. Until the PM-V11 blades came out, I only used A2 blades. I had nil issues with the A2 blades in regard to wear, and never chipped one ... never. (I changed them to PM only because I prefer the way they sharpen, that is, how the wire edge lets go more easily).

In my woods (your boat may float differently), O1 steel has a more limited lifespan than A2. I love the ease of honing O1, but for overall use I prefer A2 or, better still, PM-V11.

Regards from Perth

Derek