Table saw safety reminder

[Gene Takae]

Saw this video on Youtube. An excellent reminder of how easily an accident can happen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fifjjacjLBE

[Steve Eure]

Unfortunately, I was in the hospital yesterday and had a chance to talk to a man who had that same thing occur to him. He had several fingers chewed up and luckily had them reattached. He had quite a bit of nerve damage also. When I asked what his next step was, all he could say, with a grin mind you, was SawStop.

[Frederick Skelly]

Good video. Good reminder. Thanks for posting it Gene.
Fred

[Nick Decker]

Thanks. I hadn't thought of that particular aspect of how a riving knife helps prevent kickbacks.

[Lee Schierer]

I disagree with his height of blade setting shown in the video. The blade should be set so that the bottom of the gullets clear the wood being cut. Blade manufactures recommend higher blade settings than he was using. IMO his accident was caused by the blade being set too low. Yes if he had a riving knife installed it would have also prevented the problem, so would a ripping feather board or rollers installed on his fence to pull the work piece toward the fence behind the blade. My Grip Tite feather boards have a roller mounted on a bias so that when I place it on the fence behind the blade it continuously pulls the work piece against the fence. A good push block on the piece being cut would have also prevented the twisting effect at the end of the cut.

It is a good reminder to be careful around power tools, but his item number four on his safety list is wrong.

[Simon MacGowen]

Good reminders on some basic tablesaw safety measures. Given the fact that his tablesaw does not have a splitter or better a riving knife, the risk of kickbacks which he experienced is high.

Did he mention SawStop as one of the solutions? A SawStop would have also reduced the damage to his hand.

He has missed one critical point in his video. He is one of the many and growing social media woodworking fellas out there. Like many, he probably has not received any training about the risk of doing woodworking, demonstrating, talking to the camera and focusing on safety ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Distractions are a common source of shop accidents. It all looks easy when you watch Scott Phillips or Norm Abram on TV. They don't work solo and have professional production teams behind them.

This fella uses a tablesaw without even a blade guard, which could also have reduced or avoided his hand injury. His job-site kind of saw offers almost no safety protection to him.

He should invest in a SawStop if he plans to continue his social media business (the revenue generating model of youtube is drawing people to produce all kinds of materials from all ages; even Paul Sellers fell for it).

Simon

[John K Jordan]

Saw this video on Youtube. An excellent reminder of how easily an accident can happen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fifjjacjLBE

Thanks for that. It took guts for that guy to admit and talk about his accident. I liked his comment "I know it might sound odd to take table saw safety advice from someone who has had a table saw accident" and his logic for making the video. I think this makes a fa better impression than listening to the usual "safety blah be careful blah blah don't do blah blah blah"

When I got my first chainsaw I read everything I could find about how to be maimed or killed from the saw and trees. When I got my first tractor I did the same. I discovered many real dangers, some surprising, that I would never have imagined. If I can't imagine what could go wrong, I can't possibly protect against it.

JKJ

[Simon MacGowen]

I disagree with his height of blade setting shown in the video. The blade should be set so that the bottom of the gullets clear the wood being cut. Blade manufactures recommend higher blade settings than he was using. IMO his accident was caused by the blade being set too low. Yes if he had a riving knife installed it would have also prevented the problem, so would a ripping feather board or rollers installed on his fence to pull the work piece toward the fence behind the blade. My Grip Tite feather boards have a roller mounted on a bias so that when I place it on the fence behind the blade it continuously pulls the work piece against the fence. A good push block on the piece being cut would have also prevented the twisting effect at the end of the cut.

It is a good reminder to be careful around power tools, but his item number four on his safety list is wrong.

One reason to set a blade as you described is for better dust collection when used with the dust/blade guard. The downward spinning helps push dust into the under the table dust shroud.

I had not watched any videos from this person before and have no idea about his background. But youtube "instructional" videos are a potential minefield and if anyone sees a video showing unsafe practices in a forum you belong to, please report it so the moderators so they can take another look.

Simon

[Michael Alu]

He should invest in a SawStop if he plans to continue his social media business (the revenue generating model of youtube is drawing people to produce all kinds of materials from all ages; even Paul Sellers fell for it).

Simon

A very unfortunate accident. Complacency in the work place is the leading cause of accidents. But to answer your question he actually had ordered a SawStop a few days before the accident. He received it shortly after the accident. Kind of ironic.

[Will Allen]

[QUOTE=John K Jordan;2751671I know it might sound odd to take table saw safety advice from someone who has had a table saw accident[/QUOTE]

When I took my son to a gun safety course both instructors showed us their wounds where they had accidentally shot themselves.

[Al Launier]

Appreciate the video reminder - cannot be too safe! A splitter would have prevented this accident as well.

I place a large sheet of cardboard on top of my TS to protect the table top when not in use, so having a riving knife in place prevents it from sitting down flat on the table. However, after watching this video I just decided to try using the riving knife again & will cut a slot in the cardboard to accept it.

By the way, I observed the same thing as did Lee regarding the set cutting height of the saw blade. I agree with Lee's comment about having the gullet of the blade clear the top of the workpiece when cutting as it will focus more downward cutting force on the workpiece holding it against the table, rather than straight back, plus it will help clear the blade of sawdust rather than let it accumulate, perhaps bind more easily & increase the cutting forces.

[Simon MacGowen]

I place a large sheet of cardboard on top of my TS to protect the table top when not in use, so having a riving knife in place prevents it from sitting down flat on the table. However, after watching this video I just decided to try using the riving knife again & will cut a slot in the cardboard to accept it.



Yours is a splitter, not a riving knife right? A riving knife should come all the way down with the sawblade below the tabletop.

Simon

[Al Launier]

Yours is a splitter, not a riving knife right? A riving knife should come all the way down with the sawblade below the tabletop.

Simon

It's been awhile since I last used it so I'll have to check. As noted below my memory often fails me. Thanks for the FYI.

[Tim M Tuttle]

Good reminders on some basic tablesaw safety measures. Given the fact that his tablesaw does not have a splitter or better a riving knife, the risk of kickbacks which he experienced is high.

Did he mention SawStop as one of the solutions? A SawStop would have also reduced the damage to his hand.

He has missed one critical point in his video. He is one of the many and growing social media woodworking fellas out there. Like many, he probably has not received any training about the risk of doing woodworking, demonstrating, talking to the camera and focusing on safety ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Distractions are a common source of shop accidents. It all looks easy when you watch Scott Phillips or Norm Abram on TV. They don't work solo and have professional production teams behind them.

This fella uses a tablesaw without even a blade guard, which could also have reduced or avoided his hand injury. His job-site kind of saw offers almost no safety protection to him.

He should invest in a SawStop if he plans to continue his social media business (the revenue generating model of youtube is drawing people to produce all kinds of materials from all ages; even Paul Sellers fell for it).

Simon

I watch a ton of YouTube woodworking videos. Probably at least an hour a day. I've never once seen someone talking or looking into the camera while making a cut on their table saw. I film my projects as well and have never done that. I set up my camera, push record, and then go through the setup of the cut. It's not distracting at all.

[Tim M Tuttle]

I disagree with his height of blade setting shown in the video. The blade should be set so that the bottom of the gullets clear the wood being cut. Blade manufactures recommend higher blade settings than he was using. IMO his accident was caused by the blade being set too low. Yes if he had a riving knife installed it would have also prevented the problem, so would a ripping feather board or rollers installed on his fence to pull the work piece toward the fence behind the blade. My Grip Tite feather boards have a roller mounted on a bias so that when I place it on the fence behind the blade it continuously pulls the work piece against the fence. A good push block on the piece being cut would have also prevented the twisting effect at the end of the cut.

It is a good reminder to be careful around power tools, but his item number four on his safety list is wrong.

How did the blade height cause kick back? And he's not claiming that blade height can cause/prevent the accident, he's saying that because his blade was low that it did not cause further damage to his fingers.

[Ben Rivel]

Didnt the Woodwhisperer post this guys video too recently?

[Simon MacGowen]

I watch a ton of YouTube woodworking videos. Probably at least an hour a day. I've never once seen someone talking or looking into the camera while making a cut on their table saw. I film my projects as well and have never done that. I set up my camera, push record, and then go through the setup of the cut. It's not distracting at all.

It may not be distracting to you, but everyone has a different level of tolerance of distractions. Some people are good at multi-tasking and some are not. Some have received proper training and some have not.

There is a good reason why distraction laws are in place for drivers. I have heard arguments that talking on the phone with only one hand on the wheel or even texting behind the wheel is not unsafe. Some say hundreds of thousands of drivers do that everyday; the big question is the degree of risk. The risk of accidents/injuries increases when the level or frequency of distraction goes up.

Simon

[Matt Day]

Given the fact that his tablesaw does not have a splitter or better a riving knife

Actually it did have a riving knife, which was described in the video. Somehow it was bent so he didn’t have it installed. How it got bent is probably another safety incident.

Table saw safety is not rocket science. Proper table saw setup and alignment, control the feed, make sure the material is tight to the fence, stand out of the path of ejection. Accidents are never the saw’s fault.

Good remind of what can happen.

[Simon MacGowen]

Actually it did have a riving knife, which was described in the video. Somehow it was bent so he didn’t have it installed. How it got bent is probably another safety incident.

Table saw safety is not rocket science. Proper table saw setup and alignment, control the feed, make sure the material is tight to the fence, stand out of the path of ejection. Accidents are never the saw’s fault.

Good remind of what can happen.

I only skimmed through his video, not knowing his tablesaw did have a riving knife before.

That brings me to think if it might be possible that he had been making cuts using the riving knife all along sometimes without paying attention to whether or not the stock was always held tight to the fence when it was pushed through. Such lack of attention, if any, might have been compensated by the use of riving knife before. But once the knife was removed and the same cutting habit was employed, the risk of a kickback became obvious.

Simon

[Lee Schierer]

How did the blade height cause kick back? And he's not claiming that blade height can cause/prevent the accident, he's saying that because his blade was low that it did not cause further damage to his fingers.

The lower the blade, the greater the chance the wood will climb up the front and back side of the blade. The higher the blade the more downward force there is on the entry cut. The gullets need to be clear so they can effectively remove the chips.

[Frank Pratt]

It seems like it's only been in the last several years that people have been preaching (falsely, I believe) that the teeth should be just protruding above the stock. Having the gullets above the surface is the minimum as far as I'm concerned. And if using a guard, it can be much higher.

[Ben Rivel]

It seems like it's only been in the last several years that people have been preaching (falsely, I believe) that the teeth should be just protruding above the stock. Having the gullets above the surface is the minimum as far as I'm concerned. And if using a guard, it can be much higher.
Yea I always set the gullet to the top of the material.

[Rod Sheridan]

Although I'm very sorry to hear of the injuries, this is a guy who absolutely should not be producing safety videos.

His lack of recognition of the most important aspect of safety when using machinery was evident.

1) he removed the guard and riving knife/splitter. This is a firing offence in industry for good reason, any time you have to remove the guard, you're either doing something you shouldn't be doing, or you're using the wrong machine or guard.

Yes, he had wrong hand position, blade height and lack of push devices, however having the riving knife and guard in place would have prevented the kickback and blade contact injuries.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that the safety devices should never be removed except for machine adjustment/tooling changes with the machine locked out.

I guess it's because so few operators have had any training by qualified personnel.

Regards, Rod.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

[...]

I place a large sheet of cardboard on top of my TS to protect the table top when not in use, so having a riving knife in place prevents it from sitting down flat on the table. However, after watching this video I just decided to try using the riving knife again & will cut a slot in the cardboard to accept it.

[...]


For almost 25 years I made exactly that with my TS.

Half year ago I decided to go to a Makita 2704. Smaller, lighter and not so sturdy as my previous cast iron TS... my main reason for the upgrade was security: blade guard, spreader and anti kick back pawns. They are something inconvenient at some situations but I disciplined myself to maintain those stuff at their place always it is possible.

I remade my saw sledge to operate with those security features on.

Unfortunately for non trespassing cuts like grooves and dado I need to take them off... and work at triple alert mode...

[Tim M Tuttle]

I place a large sheet of cardboard on top of my TS to protect the table top when not in use, so having a riving knife in place prevents it from sitting down flat on the table. However, after watching this video I just decided to try using the riving knife again & will cut a slot in the cardboard to accept it.

Riving knife or splitter? A riving knife usually is lower than the top of the blade I thought and moves up and down with the blade. Mine is at least.

[Bob Coates]

This guy attempts to create the kickback live, n harem to him done but very close in slow motion. As he says he was probably an idiot for trying this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

[eugene thomas]

i am glad video was posted, after years of using table saw sometimes kind of forget just how much damage can do. as to video quality. think he did ok in getting point accross, not easy to make a video of a major screw up. . mean where not all profesional with the camera.

[Ken Kortge]

he removed the guard and riving knife/splitter. This is a firing offence in industry for good reason, any time you have to remove the guard, you're either doing something you shouldn't be doing, or you're using the wrong machine or guard.

With the apparent massive popularity of the GRR-RIPPER push block - which from what I understand requires removal of the blade guard to even work, I assume lots and lots of table saw users are working with the blade guards removed, if for no other reason than "for total hand protection" (that quote taken from the GRR-RIPPER website). Other sales sites say "Protect your hands like never before, virtually eliminate kickback".

[Al Launier]

Yours is a splitter, not a riving knife right? A riving knife should come all the way down with the sawblade below the tabletop.

Simon

Yup, you're right, it's a splitter.

[Brian Deakin]

Members may find the following UK links useful

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

[Simon MacGowen]

With the apparent massive popularity of the GRR-RIPPER push block - which from what I understand requires removal of the blade guard to even work, I assume lots and lots of table saw users are working with the blade guards removed, if for no other reason than "for total hand protection" (that quote taken from the GRR-RIPPER website). Other sales sites say "Protect your hands like never before, virtually eliminate kickback".

I can't speak for others who own a GRR push block. But I use it WITHOUT removing the dust blade guard, except for cuts that need the removal of the guard (e.g. on the cross cut sled) whether or not you have a GRR block. Another occasion in which you need to remove the guard is resaw thin strips, in which case the GRR push block excels when used with the riving knife. The only safer or as safe alternative is to use the bandsaw or plane it down with a thickness planer.

I agree with the comment that this youtube content producer needs either a refresher or some proper safety training so that what he does when copied by his viewers will not result in any unintended consequences. Someone said he is getting a SAWSTOP, but that would protect him but not his viewers.

There are always people who would say I have done this and that in the same way for 25 years and look, I still have ten fingers. That is not how shop safety is assessed. If anyone is interested in seeing actual and real life experience of tablesaw injuries, go to the SawStop site. There are also people who insist all you need to avoid shop injuries is already there between your eyes. I wish things were that simple.

The youtube woodworking channels and videos are the WW West. Watcher beware is all I can say.

Simon

[Rod Sheridan]

Another occasion in which you need to remove the guard is resaw thin strips, in which case the GRR push block excels when used with the riving knife. The only safer or as safe alternative is to use the bandsaw or plane it down with a thickness planer.



.

Simon

Hi Simon, I saw thin strips using a low, short fence and a push block without removing the blade guard.....Regards, Rod.

[Brian Henderson]

Saw it, he was an idiot and I told him so. That entire incident was entirely avoidable by using common sense work practices. There's no such thing as an accident in that case, he screwed up. Now it's great that he's trying to tell people how to avoid it, but the fact is, because he's on YouTube, he is going to be perceived as an expert by people who have less experience and are looking at him to teach them how to use power tools. Whether that's his intention or not, that's the fact. And because he is not using proper safety equipment and proper safety practices, how long is it going to be before someone watches him do something stupid, tries it themselves, and comes away with a much more serious injury?

But yeah, he didn't want to hear that.

[Brian Henderson]

This guy attempts to create the kickback live, n harem to him done but very close in slow motion. As he says he was probably an idiot for trying this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

I have no idea where it is, but there was someone a year or two ago on YouTube who was demonstrating the power of kickbacks and he built an elaborate rig so he could safely launch wood with his blade. The boards shot half way across an open field behind his shop. Wish I could find the video again but it's out there.

[Simon MacGowen]

Hi Simon, I saw thin strips using a low, short fence and a push block without removing the blade guard.....Regards, Rod.

Yes, short fence! Forgot that -- I once saw a European video in which the thin strip got pushed past the blade without the push stick hitting the guard/prawl.

Simon

[Chris Fournier]

So Tabitha Babbit gets credited with inventing the circular saw in 1813 and we have VLOGGERS in 2017 explaining how to use the tool safely after mangling themselves using the tool. And the show goes on, two centuries of progress, the blind leading the blind...

I do not use a guard on my table/sliding saw. I have always used a splitter or riving knife however. Horrible injuries? Zero. Almost 30 years now...

How on Earth do you get injured using a tablesaw? Intersection. Your body part being in the path of the blade. Remove the possibility of intersection, remove the potential for injury.

Guards won't stop you from putting your body parts in the path of the blade, in fact they won't stop your body parts from coming in contact with the blade. I have actually used guards and had them deflect material into the blade causing problems.

I'm not suggesting that you remove your guards if you use them, I am simply saying that I don't use one on my table/sliding saw and I have avoided injury by not putting my body in the path of the blade where intersection and injury can occur. In my shop, where accuracy is critical on various projects guards are an impediment. Understanding that you won't get cut if you don't touch the blade is your best guard. Splitters and riving knives are not optional. There, that's my 30 year effective line in the sand.

[Simon MacGowen]

It seems like it's only been in the last several years that people have been preaching (falsely, I believe) that the teeth should be just protruding above the stock. Having the gullets above the surface is the minimum as far as I'm concerned. And if using a guard, it can be much higher.

People do that because it gives them a false sense of security or protection, thinking they can "get away" from the blade fast enough if the blade is "low" enough. What they miss is the blade is actually the exposed teeth PLUS the full thickness of the stock they are working with. So it is 1/2"+ or 3/4"+ spinning metal instead of the 1/8" they think they are dealing with. In any kickback encounter, it is violent and uncontrollable; even 1/2" exposed steel can maim mercilessly.

Simon

[Rod Sheridan]

Members may find the following UK links useful

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

Good information Brian, thanks for posting that.

Unfortunately most North American saws are decades behind in safety systems, all the decades or century old devices such as multi-function rip fences, crown guards, riving knives, Shaw guards and power feeders are conspicuously absent here.

That said, we're a pretty creative group and can make many of these things ourselves, or purchase commercially available safety devices...........Regards, Rod.

[Eric Van Cronk]

I watched the whole video.

The guy seems humble and I feel badly for what happened and that he has a month of down time now.

The consequences could have been much more severe and permanent.

As a SawStop owner I watched and didn’t feel any less need to be hyper vigilant and respect the TS. The blade brake isn’t going to stop a kickback knockout shot, however, I can’t help but to think how he would have been spared a month of recovery.

[Simon MacGowen]

As a SawStop owner I watched and didn’t feel any less need to be hyper vigilant and respect the TS. The blade brake isn’t going to stop a kickback knockout shot, however, I can’t help but to think how he would have been spared a month of recovery.

Triggering the blade brake -- whether or not due to a kickback -- can be costly financially, depending on the blade involved: $70+$135= a loss $200+loss of shop time until the replacement cartridge is received.

I have yet to meet any SawStop owners who said they can let their guard a little down because of the extra protection.

Simon

[Glen Gunderson]

Although I'm very sorry to hear of the injuries, this is a guy who absolutely should not be producing safety videos.

His lack of recognition of the most important aspect of safety when using machinery was evident.

1) he removed the guard and riving knife/splitter. This is a firing offence in industry for good reason, any time you have to remove the guard, you're either doing something you shouldn't be doing, or you're using the wrong machine or guard.

Yes, he had wrong hand position, blade height and lack of push devices, however having the riving knife and guard in place would have prevented the kickback and blade contact injuries.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that the safety devices should never be removed except for machine adjustment/tooling changes with the machine locked out.

I guess it's because so few operators have had any training by qualified personnel.

Regards, Rod.


That's what I took away too. Essentially, his whole video could've been condensed to "Use a guard and splitter," yet he didn't even mention it. Hand position, push sticks, blade height, etc. are all very important, but he completely ignored the one piece of equipment that likely would've saved him even if he screwed everything else up.

[Eric Van Cronk]

Triggering the blade brake -- whether or not due to a kickback -- can be costly financially, depending on the blade involved: $70+$135= a loss $200+loss of shop time until the replacement cartridge is received.

I’m not going to defend my decision to use SawStops in my shop, garage workshop and out in the field. My crew has only triggered the brakes when cutting wet pressure treated lumber. Happens maybe 1x every other month or so. I build the cost into my bids. Worth every penny (to me)

[Gene Takae]

I have yet to meet any SawStop owners who said they can let their guard a little down because of the extra protection.

Simon

Makes sense-that would be akin to driving your vehicle recklessly because it it equipped with airbags.

[Lee Schierer]

It seems like it's only been in the last several years that people have been preaching (falsely, I believe) that the teeth should be just protruding above the stock. Having the gullets above the surface is the minimum as far as I'm concerned. And if using a guard, it can be much higher.

When I took shop in 9th grade that is what our shop teacher told us was the correct way to set up a saw. I used to do the same thing until I noticed that some rip cuts wanted to climb up the blade as I started cuts. I then read the manufacturers recommendations. I now hav my blade set so at least the gullets are clear of the wood or a bit higher.

[Roger Marty]

Most hobbyists I know have the blade guard removed on their table saw. I dislike a blade guard myself. Gets in the way.

[Simon MacGowen]

Most hobbyists I know have the blade guard removed on their table saw. I dislike a blade guard myself. Gets in the way.

I have come across my share of youtube videos in which the blade guard was seen removed. Yes, watcher beaware.

I already explained in another post that my guard is removed only when making certain cuts (e.g. dados or using the cross cut sled), otherwise it stays there 24/7. Why? Apart from safety, my SawStop blade guard is also a dust guard. If the guard is removed, the dust collection efficiency will be reduced.

Some people say the guard hinders the sighting. Sighting should be completed before the saw is turned on. That is, the blade height and the fence are first set, then the blade guard is lowered and the saw is powered on and the cut is made. There is nothing to see when you make a cut, except seeing to it that the stock is held tight to the fence. You shouldn't be paying attention to the spinning blade covered by the guard, but the fence.

A lot of people can't afford the SawStop (perhaps until its safety patents have expired and there is a mass production) and they should use whatever safety features that are available on their saws including the blade guards. Statistics don't lie in this case: 1 tablesaw injury every 9 minutes.

Oh yes, someone would sure share something like "I know a guy who smoked for 50 years and did not die from lung cancer." Would you be as lucky as that guy, if you were considering whether or not to smoke? When it comes to safety, I don't rely on luck.

Simon

[andy bessette]

This guy's "accident" was due to improperly holding the workpiece. He had his hand too close to the fence, instead of pushing in-line with the resisting force, and did not bother using his free hand to keep the workpiece against the fence on the outfeed side of the blade.

[Roy Petersen]

This guy's "accident" was due to improperly holding the workpiece. He had his hand too close to the fence, instead of pushing in-line with the resisting force, and did not bother using his free hand to keep the workpiece against the fence on the outfeed side of the blade.
Forgive me, but doesn't that place his torso and free hand in the danger zone? A kickback could pull that free hand into the spinning blade and toss the workpiece right up towards his face/chest.

We do a ton of repetitive cuts on ply (cutting strips from 1/4" material).
They pull the workpiece towards the fence slightly, and prevent the material from reversing direction. I will admit to having removed the blade guard from this saw, since it's an ancient (and fairly cheap) Sears, and the guard was horrible to use. Never worked right. Always use push sticks, and I'm *very* mindful of where that blade is. 30 years in, never had a hand come close to caught (thankfully).

[Simon MacGowen]

Or something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7b-i8Llv6w

[Simon MacGowen]

This guy's "accident" was due to improperly holding the workpiece. He had his hand too close to the fence, instead of pushing in-line with the resisting force, and did not bother using his free hand to keep the workpiece against the fence on the outfeed side of the blade.

Even with a SawStop, unless the stock is too large, I hold a workpiece tight to the fence using either a stick (notched) or a featherboard on the offside. (Good) habit dies hard, from the pre-SawStop days.

Not everyone realizes that before one end of the stock passes through a riving knife or splitter, the chance of a kickback is STILL there. It is a dangerous misconception that I have heard time and time again people say a riving knife prevents kickbacks. A RK reduces the chance of a kickback, but does not eliminate it because a RF is installed BEHIND the blade.

I bet a lot of youtube video makers don't know anything about this limitation of the riving knife, judging from many other unsafe shots they share, including removing an offcut with a hand WHILE the spinning blade had yet to come to a stop!

This is one reason why I hardly watch any youtube woodworking videos...simply too amateurish.


Simon

[andy bessette]

Forgive me, but doesn't that place his torso and free hand in the danger zone? A kickback could pull that free hand into the spinning blade and toss the workpiece right up towards his face/chest.

We do a ton of repetitive cuts...

Do whatever you like with repetitive cuts. I control the workpiece using both hands, as described. I don't stand behind the workpiece. My free hand presses against the table saw top while my thumb and forefinger hold the workpiece down and against the fence. When at all possible, my feeding hand has fingers wrapped around the fence. My saws use no riving knife, splitter or blade guard. Been a professional woodworker for over 4 decades and don't have kickbacks. My use of a push stick is limited to those workpieces narrower than my thumb.

[Prashun Patel]

I sweat every time I read these threads. Ignorance is the risk for the Inexperienced. Complacency is the enemy of the Experienced. These threads remind me to be vigilant.

[Simon MacGowen]

I sweat every time I read these threads. Ignorance is the risk for the Inexperienced. Complacency is the enemy of the Experienced. These threads remind me to be vigilant.

You said it best.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

This guy's "accident" was due to improperly holding the workpiece. He had his hand too close to the fence, instead of pushing in-line with the resisting force, and did not bother using his free hand to keep the workpiece against the fence on the outfeed side of the blade.
I can't think of anything more dangerous to do than to reach over the blade as you are suggesting. Also, why the quotes around the word 'accident' - you don't think it was an accident?

[Simon MacGowen]

When at all possible, my feeding hand has fingers wrapped around the fence. My saws use no riving knife, splitter or blade guard. Been a professional woodworker for over 4 decades and don't have kickbacks. My use of a push stick is limited to those workpieces narrower than my thumb.

I suppose you are your own boss, right? I know of no businesses that would allow their employees to work in an unsafe work condition as you described. Did you know a shop accident that happens with the kind of shop practice you share here -- using hands only on the tablesaw -- may not be covered by your insurance policy (do you have one?)? If you had employees and they were injured using the tablesaw you described, you could be the subject of a litigation, did you know?

Simon

[andy bessette]

I can't think of anything more dangerous to do than to reach over the blade as you are suggesting...

More dangerous is to NOT keep the workpiece pressed tightly against the table and fence (as in the video). I do not reach "over" the blade; I am off to the side, reaching "around" the blade, with my hand firmly supported by the table saw top. This has proven to be the safest way for me to handle non-repetitive cuts.

The knucklehead very deliberately caused the kickback to occur by using improper technique in a virtually textbook fashion.

[Brian Henderson]

I can't think of anything more dangerous to do than to reach over the blade as you are suggesting. Also, why the quotes around the word 'accident' - you don't think it was an accident?

No, it's not an accident, it's user stupidity. Accidents are things entirely beyond the user's control. This was caused 100% by a failure to follow common sense safety regulations and use the included safety equipment. While I don't want to say he got what he deserved, this was entirely his fault and he's lucky it wasn't worse.

[Pat Barry]

No, it's not an accident, it's user stupidity. Accidents are things entirely beyond the user's control. This was caused 100% by a failure to follow common sense safety regulations and use the included safety equipment. While I don't want to say he got what he deserved, this was entirely his fault and he's lucky it wasn't worse.
I guess we will agree to disagree. I tend to think of accident like this definiton:

an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
"he had an accident at the factory"


synonyms:
mishap, misadventure, unfortunate incident, mischance, misfortune, disaster, tragedy, catastrophe, calamity; technicalcasualty
"an accident at work"






a crash involving road or other vehicles, typically one that causes serious damage or injury.
"four people were killed in a car accident"


synonyms:
crash, collision, smash, bump, car crash; Morewreck;
informalsmash-up, pileup, fender bender
"she was injured in a highway accident"







2.
an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
"the pregnancy was an accident"

You equate stupidity with his accident. I see it as an unfortunate side effect. Of course he could have prevented it. It was still an accident.

[Brian Henderson]

I guess we will agree to disagree. I tend to think of accident like this definiton:

an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
"he had an accident at the factory"


synonyms:
mishap, misadventure, unfortunate incident, mischance, misfortune, disaster, tragedy, catastrophe, calamity; technicalcasualty
"an accident at work"






a crash involving road or other vehicles, typically one that causes serious damage or injury.
"four people were killed in a car accident"


synonyms:
crash, collision, smash, bump, car crash; Morewreck;
informalsmash-up, pileup, fender bender
"she was injured in a highway accident"







2.
an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
"the pregnancy was an accident"

You equate stupidity with his accident. I see it as an unfortunate side effect. Of course he could have prevented it. It was still an accident.

There's nothing unexpected about any of it. If you stick your hand in a meat grinder, bad things are going to happen. It is the responsibility of every woodworker to operate safely 100% of the time. Did he want it to happen? Of course not. But anyone who has, as he said "used a table saw for 20 years" should have known better than to do what he did. He didn't use common sense. He was stupid.

[Roy Petersen]

My free hand presses against the table saw top while my thumb and forefinger hold the workpiece down and against the fence. When at all possible, my feeding hand has fingers wrapped around the fence.
Though I don't doubt your experience, I question the safety of that, unless you have unnaturally long arms. Here's a picture showing someone standing in a position making that left hand hold possible (yes that's not a through cut, it's just to show the position). Notice his right hand is nowhere near the fence. To get that there, he'd have to straddle the corner of the saw (or stretch from behind it), getting one or both hands near that blade, or at the least putting his body close enough to be in harms way if something goes wrong.
373182

I'm well over 6' tall, and have a full size table saw. For me to have my right hand on the fence, and my left hand on the outfeed end of the stock, I'm definitely in danger. How is it you're not?

[andy bessette]

Though I don't doubt your experience, I question the safety of that, unless you have unnaturally long arms. Here's a picture showing someone standing in a position making that left hand hold possible...
373182

...

I have never, and would never use the position shown in the photo, standing so far away from the fence, with virtually zero control of the workpiece. It would be ridiculous to place both hands together at that point shown. My right hand would be between the fence and the blade, with my thumb pushing the workpiece, rather close to the blade line, and possibly at least my pinky wrapped over the fence. My left hand would be in a similar position, but on the other side of the blade, pushing the offcut through (if the blade was through).

Only when I am trimming to size (when there is no offcut) do I use my left hand on the far side of the blade to insure the workpiece stays down and against the fence.

[Roy Petersen]

I have never, and would never use the position shown in the photo
But you stated this: "I do not reach "over" the blade; I am off to the side, reaching "around" the blade"
I picture it similar to that image, though maybe not that exaggeratedly left of center, since you'd have to be standing there to not reach around the blade on it's left while holding and pushing near/at the fence with your right.

Only when I am trimming to size (when there is no offcut) do I use my left hand on the far side of the blade to insure the workpiece stays down and against the fence.It's this I was referring to. For you to have your right hand on the fence, and your left hand *past the spinning blade*, you'd need to be leaning in, placing both hands and your torso nearer to the blade (and in the throw zone) than I'd find prudent.

Maybe my imagination just isn't good enough to picture that as safe?
Perhaps you could show a pic with your hands (and the saw not running) and position doing what you say you do safely?

[andy bessette]

Roy--I don't see how something this simple requires a special photo session. Mock it up yourself. Place your body where it is just to the left of the cut line, your right hand pushing the workpiece being trimmed, and your left hand on the far side of the blade, resting firmly on the table, with your thumb and forefinger pressing the work against the table and fence. So simple and safe.

Note: This procedure (left hand on far side of blade) is used just as you go to push the last bit of the workpiece through, when you can no longer hold the trimmed piece down from behind the blade.

[Roy Petersen]

I think maybe I'm reading it wrong.
The original post was about someone pushing from the right only, and doing so incorrectly, causing the wood to pivot into the path of the blade.
You stated you'd hold the outfed wood from the left on the other side of the blade. To me, that means holding the wood beyond the spinning blade, not to the left next to the blade, but past it, as it leaves the blade after the cut is done. That would mean your right hand is on the fence, now near the spinning blade, and your left hand is fully beyond the blade, holding the workpiece against the fence at the other end. As both hands are naturally connected via your torso (if all goes well), that puts you in the middle of the dangerous bits.

They way I'm reading it, it sounds like the dangerous way. You seem to think it's not, so I wanted to see some pic just to show where your hands would be as the wood was leaving the blade. It's ok if you don't, I'm just not seeing it mentally. I'd find a pic to show what I think you mean here, but after the 7th or so image of someone's accident, I gave up. ;)

[Glen Gunderson]

I can't fathom how anyone could think reaching over (or around) a saw blade to hold a piece of wood against the fence during a rip is a good idea. Just the thought of it gives me the heebie jeebies. One false move, slip up, sneeze, wood warping as you cut and kicking back, etc. and you've probably lost part of your hand or worse, sliced through major blood vessels in your forearm.

Oh well, everyone does what they're comfortable with and to each their own. It was only 25 or so years ago when less than half of Americans wore seatbelts, so I guess everyone has a different risk tolerance. For me, I only get one set of hands in this life and I prefer to err on the side of protecting them.

[Brad Barnhart]

I agree w/Brian. Just bcause the fella had a slight disagreement with his tablesaw doesn't make him an expert. I haven't had a chance to look at the video yet, but common sense would've prevented his accident, & therefore there would be one less advocate on utube telling folks how it should be done.

[Brad Barnhart]

I'm not afraid to say that after 26 years of wood workin', I'd never been bit by my ts, bs, ras, none of my tools. But last week I became a statistic. I had a distraction in the shop, which I rarely have. I was cutting strips on the ts for Christmas ornaments, & this young man got to teasin' my dogs. One of the dogs barked, & I was 6" from the end of the cut. When I looked up, I apparently didn't stop feedin into the blade, & that's when I got it from the saw. The inside of my left thumb. A rip blade on the saw, it cut about 1/4" off the top & inside of my right thumb. Two days in the hospital, & some stitches, it's sore, but, I've been released to go back to the shop.

The point of the case is distraction. My saw don't have covers, riving knife, or any of that other fancy stuff! And no, this little accident isn't going to make me put it on it, or consider a saw stop. I'll just keep on usin' it the way it is. Oh, & no worries of a u tube video, either.

[Brian Deakin]

Rod thank you for your post

Please see link below for more information


http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/index.htm

and

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/video.htm

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm not afraid to say that after 26 years of wood workin', I'd never been bit by my ts, bs, ras, none of my tools. But last week I became a statistic. I had a distraction in the shop, which I rarely have.

The point of the case is distraction. My saw don't have covers, riving knife, or any of that other fancy stuff! And no, this little accident isn't going to make me put it on it, or consider a saw stop. I'll just keep on usin' it the way it is. Oh, & no worries of a u tube video, either.

Although I disagree with you that safety equipment on a tablesaw is fancy stuff, I admire your courage to share your recent injury, attributing the cause of it to a distraction.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Rod thank you for your post

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/video.htm

In the cross-cut video, it recommends the area 30mm (12") on either side of the blade as danger zone. I have seen many operators using their mitre saws with disregard for the danger zones marked on the saws. Two very well-known woodworkers (one now retired), for example, were seen on video holding the stock on a mitre saw with their non-dominant hand close to the blade/blade guard -- 6" ? or even less.

Simon

[Brian Henderson]

I agree w/Brian. Just bcause the fella had a slight disagreement with his tablesaw doesn't make him an expert. I haven't had a chance to look at the video yet, but common sense would've prevented his accident, & therefore there would be one less advocate on utube telling folks how it should be done.

The problem is, whether or not he intends to present himself as an expert, that's what people watching his channel will see him as. He will be a role model whether he likes it or not. People look to YouTube for training and assume that anyone on YouTube knows what they're doing. That's a bad assumption, of course, but it doesn't stop it from being true. Anyone making videos on YouTube, especially anyone with a significant following, needs to be held to a higher standard. They have a much more dramatic impact on potentially stupid people who take what the YouTuber has to say, even if it's wrong or dangerous.

[Simon MacGowen]

Anyone making videos on YouTube, especially anyone with a significant following, needs to be held to a higher standard. They have a much more dramatic impact on potentially stupid people who take what the YouTuber has to say, even if it's wrong or dangerous.

Did anyone with legal training or qualifications ever study the possibility that these Youtube cowboys, despite their good intentions, could land in legal trouble water, if someone injured himself or herself after copying their "instructions?" I don't recall seeing disclaimers on some of these videos I came across in the past. Even with the disclaimers, I wonder if they are good defenses in court if what they are showing are outright unsafe practices -- which may be unknown to themselves and/or to the viewers. Any legal attorneys here? Or, any case laws that can shed some light.

Simon

[Steve Demuth]

I can't fathom how anyone could think reaching over (or around) a saw blade to hold a piece of wood against the fence during a rip is a good idea. Just the thought of it gives me the heebie jeebies. One false move, slip up, sneeze, wood warping as you cut and kicking back, etc. and you've probably lost part of your hand or worse, sliced through major blood vessels in your forearm.


Emphatically agree.

[andy bessette]

Emphatically agree.

Let me guess...you own a Sawstop. :)

[Eric Van Cronk]

I'm not afraid to say that after 26 years of wood workin', I'd never been bit by my ts, bs, ras, none of my tools. But last week I became a statistic...and no, this little accident isn't going to make me...consider a saw stop.

Wow, why?

Ego?
Pride?
Change?
Learning curve?

It can’t be the cost, as the two days in the hospital cost more than any of the SawStop saws, even w/ insurance.

Such anti-SawStop mentality even after an avoidable trip to the hospital.

I actually had the same reaction from my crew when I replaced the Uni with an industrial SawStop.

Im not trolling but if I went 26 years w/o an accident and then spent 2 days in the hospital I would be filled with regret over not buying a SawStop.

[Prashun Patel]

Let's not turn this into a Sawstop thread or into an argument.

This thread is not yet on fire, but I do see some puffs of smoke.

[Simon MacGowen]

Wow, why?

Im not trolling but if I went 26 years w/o an accident and then spent 2 days in the hospital I would be filled with regret over not buying a SawStop.

Sometimes it's money, sometimes it is confidence (or over-confidence, if not complacency), and sometimes it is the anti-Gass position (even though SAWSTOP is now owned by FESTOOL (or its parent co. strictly speaking)).

I never try to convince anyone to get a SawStop. SawStop is only one piece of equipment in the shop; the mitresaw can hurt really bad, too. If someone think they are invincible, why argue? It is not your fingers or hand at risk. As long as someone doesn't smoke in my face, I don't try to preach why smoking kills people. Their choice. I am glad to see that responsible employers including school administrations have all opted for the SawStop to protect those at risk.

But, if someone wants to hear about my saw recommendation, I won't shy from doing it with passion.

Simon

[Prashun Patel]

Watch the "stupids", Brian. They're not necessary to make your point - which you've made.

Everyone else, feel free to add new insight or information that is not argumentative.

And I'm not going to argue about what's argumentative. I know it when I see it.

[Simon MacGowen]

Whenever the adjective "stupid" or its noun is used against another forum member (rather than to describe the act or behavior of a third party), I know who is running out of reasons or points in the discussion.

It is a dangerous word to use in the workplace. One of my wife's (ex-now) part-time coworkers had the habit of using that word in her conversation. In one encounter with one of her customers, she mouthed that word within the earshot of her supervisor. It wasn't sure if she said that to herself or not, but the customer escalated the dispute. Long story short, she resigned on her own soon after management decided to open an investigation into the customer's complaint.

100% real workplace incident.

Simon

[Steve Demuth]

Let me guess...you own a Sawstop. :)

I don't, actually, although when get around to replacing the table saw I have, it'll most likely be with a Sawstop or if I wait a bit longer, a competitive equivalent.

[Pat Barry]

Did anyone with legal training or qualifications ever study the possibility that these Youtube cowboys, despite their good intentions, could land in legal trouble water, if someone injured himself or herself after copying their "instructions?" I don't recall seeing disclaimers on some of these videos I came across in the past. Even with the disclaimers, I wonder if they are good defenses in court if what they are showing are outright unsafe practices -- which may be unknown to themselves and/or to the viewers. Any legal attorneys here? Or, any case laws that can shed some light.

Simon
Great, let's get some attorneys involved!

[Martin Wasner]

Pretty simple. Don't put the meat in the sharp spinny thing(s).

Play ignorant games, win ignorant prizes.

(that quip certainly loses something when you replace the word stupid)

[Bob Cooper]

wow...tough crowd. remind me never to make a mistake a post about it.

[Brad Barnhart]

ego has nothing to do with it, Pride does a play into it, but my saw is a 1952 Craftsman saw. When we bought it, there were no guards, no riving knife, nothing on the saw. Before ya fly off the handle, that doesn't mean I couldn't of made guards, a knife, etc. for it. I just never did.

As far as investin' in a sawstop, not a chance! Maybe the stay in the hospital would've paid for one, but I just don't have the money for one. I've had the same saw this long, I'll just keep it. I stated I had a distraction in the shop that afternoon. A distraction can get you in as much trouble as anything else. That's why ALL my equipment is shut down, as a rule, when folks are in the shop.

[Eric Van Cronk]

Nostalgia- I get it.

Hope you heal up quickly.

[Lee Schierer]

Guys, this thread is getting on really thin ice. Please keep it civil.

[Simon MacGowen]

Came across this video last night and it is another example of why I call Youtube a WWW with minefields everywhere. I start the link from where the totally unsafe cut was about to happen. Did you know what was dead wrong there? Judging from the comments made there, many had no clue whatsoever.

https://youtu.be/-kkmmLhsyRQ?t=39s

DO NOT ever attempt to make cuts the way he did. He is one of the people who should brush up his safety knowledge or get a SawStop to minimize the potential injury to him.

Anyone who is still scratching his head after watching the first 5 seconds or so of the clip, go here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0jbg9LuDsc
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0jbg9LuDsc)

Simon

[jack forsberg]

might help to stop setting up camera angle for your woodworking life on you tube and just pay attention to mill work

[andy bessette]

At 1:20 of this video you see someone making the most awkward use of push sticks and creating a dangerous situation in the name of safety. This is a case where using your hands is much more appropriate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkvO99lswZg

[Simon MacGowen]

At 1:20 of this video you see someone making the most awkward use of push sticks and creating a dangerous situation in the name of safety. This is a case where using your hands is much more appropriate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkvO99lswZg

No blade guard, so dust everywhere...while no one was seen wearing any masks!

Don't watch videos much, never saw someone cutting a board like that with two push sticks on Youtube. Why two sticks? A push shoe like this http://www.tablesawpushstick.com/ would do the job much simpler.

Simon

[Dan Rude]

I finally was able to set up my Sawstop 3hp PCS, I love it. I had several close calls in Shop Class in HS. When I got my first Table saw a .113 C-man I tried using the guard. The fit and alignment were so poor, i had issues with it trapping the wood. This caused me to have to shut down the saw to realign and finish the cut. I then used it for years without a guard. I then had a close friend who had used saws for years a retired Flooring installer, have an accident that damaged his hand. He still has issues with it. that made the third person to have a hand injury with a table saw that I was friends with. Granted, the Sawstop was only around for the last one. He though said he would have gladly paid for one in hind site. I then decided it was my time to get one. Everyone has choices, I made mine. Dan

[Brian Holcombe]

At 1:20 of this video you see someone making the most awkward use of push sticks and creating a dangerous situation in the name of safety. This is a case where using your hands is much more appropriate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkvO99lswZg


A bit cavalier with that timber framing saw as well. Safe to say that no one wants to get cut with one of those anywhere, but especially so at about waist height.

[Simon MacGowen]

A bit cavalier with that timber framing saw as well. Safe to say that no one wants to get cut with one of those anywhere, but especially so at about waist height.

True.

Don't Google it, but circular saw accidents can easily be found with a simple search. Some are really graphic for those who have the stomach for them (I saw the titles and quickly moved away).

A more safe way to use a circular saw is to use it with a track and with the workpiece supported on a foam or similar material. Circular saws can cause violent kickbacks too.

No matter how you choose to do your shop work as a hobby or for a living, with or without any safety gear, I wish you all a safe and injury-free woodworking journey.

Simon

[Roy Petersen]

At 1:20 of this video you see someone making the most awkward use of push sticks and creating a dangerous situation in the name of safety. This is a case where using your hands is much more appropriate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkvO99lswZg
From that same video, this is what I picture you were advocating earlier in this thread, though using your hands instead of the push sticks.
https://youtu.be/ZkvO99lswZg?t=171 (that's saved at the time of the start of said cut).
He pushes from behind, then at the end reaches beyond the cut to apply pressure on the outfed wood (except downward and not into the fence, since he couldn't get it there fast and accurately). Very iffy with slippery push sticks in a hurry; downright dangerous using only hands. Just my opinion.

[Robert Willing]

I did not bother to read all these posts but after two TS accidents in two years I bought a SAWSTOP. The tips of two fingers nearly cut off was enough for me.

[Simon MacGowen]

I did not bother to read all these posts but after two TS accidents in two years I bought a SAWSTOP. The tips of two fingers nearly cut off was enough for me.

I know someone who had a tablesaw accident this summer resulting in weeks of healing to two of his fingers. There was no kick back but it was so fast that he still did not quite know how or why the accident happened. Yes, he had not used any blade guard.

He decided to change how he worked and bought a Makita Plunge cut track saw system instead of a SawStop, his only other option under consideration.

Simon

[Chris Hachet]

I have a Vintage Unsiaw that works perfectly...am thinking of getting a SawStop. Starting to think it would be money well spent.

[Steve H Graham]

I found that video comforting, because the operator made very obvious bad decisions I don't have to make. No splitter, no push stick, no pawls, no guard, no Sawstop, not a sliding table saw, didn't push down on the far end with a stick, no featherboard, stood in the wrong place...it's hard to think of anything he did right. If he had taken common-sense precautions and still gotten cut, I would find the video much more disturbing. His accident doesn't make saws look unsafe. It just reinforces what I've been taught about safety. He says he did three things wrong. No mention of the others. Oh, man. Not good.

The things that disturb me are the near-misses I've had when doing my best to protect myself. I hate finding out there are safety tips I'm not aware of.

Seems like it's always the experienced people who do these things. "I've been doing this 30 years, and I've never been hurt." Of course you haven't. Even if you do it wrong, you probably won't get hurt. Mishaps don't happen every time you do something stupid, but doing risky things makes it certain that they will happen if you live long enough.

Many people have lived and died without wearing safety belts in the car, without suffering harm as a result, but there are also a lot of people wearing diapers and being fed with a spoon because they thought they were too smart to buckle up.

Karl Wallenda walked tightropes without nets for over 70 years, with a perfect safety record. Then he fell off and died.

[Steve H Graham]

The video guy has a crap attitude toward advice in the comments. This is exactly why he got hurt, and he will probably get hurt again. It's not the equipment.

[Brian Henderson]

The video guy has a crap attitude toward advice in the comments. This is exactly why he got hurt, and he will probably get hurt again. It's not the equipment.

I'm hoping the new software around here will let people like posts because yours certainly deserve it. But he, like a lot of other "experienced" woodworkers, make excuses for their own failures by pushing for safer saws, not safer practices. They don't want to take personal responsibility for their own failures, they want someone else to coddle them and take care of them while they continue to act unsafely. I love people who say "I've done it this way for years". Okay, you've done something dumb for years, but instead of recognizing it before something bad happens, they keep doing it because it's more convenient than just doing it the right way. And when something does go wrong, instead of realizing what a fool they've been all this time... they just want a saw that makes it safer to do all of the same stupid garbage in the future.

What a world.

[Steve H Graham]

He clearly knows very little about safety, even after his accident. That means:

1. he didn't bother studying safety before the accident,
2. when his fingers got mangled, he still chose not to look into it, and
3. he doesn't see the problem with giving other people half-assed advice about something that could cost them their fingers.

Run my fingers into a table saw blade once, and within 24 hours, I will become my area's leading expert on saw safety. I'm not the Black Knight. You don't have to cut my arms and legs off.

I don't want to pick on someone who got hurt, but he shouldn't be setting other people up for disaster.

[Brian Henderson]

He clearly knows very little about safety, even after his accident. That means:

1. he didn't bother studying safety before the accident,
2. when his fingers got mangled, he still chose not to look into it, and
3. he doesn't see the problem with giving other people half-assed advice about something that could cost them their fingers.

Run my fingers into a table saw blade once, and within 24 hours, I will become my area's leading expert on saw safety. I'm not the Black Knight. You don't have to cut my arms and legs off.

I don't want to pick on someone who got hurt, but he shouldn't be setting other people up for disaster.

"Your arm's off!" "No it isn't!"

[Rod Sheridan]

"Your arm's off!" "No it isn't!"


"It's just a flesh wound"

it's amazing how many times a Monty Python quote can be used in conversation................Rod.

[Pat Barry]

I'd love to see video's of you guys who seem to have all the answers in action. That would be much more educational for those of us who have been doing things a certain way forever than having to see and hear accident footage. Please post some so we can watch and learn.

[Simon MacGowen]

<p>

I&#39;d love to see video&#39;s of you guys who seem to have all the answers in action. That would be much more educational for those of us who have been doing things a certain way forever than having to see and hear accident footage. Please post some so we can watch and learn. No videos will cover ALL kinds of cuts and a guy who finds convenience over safety will never &quot;learn&quot; enough no matter how many videos he watches. Watching MORE videos will not help a woodworker protect himself if he does not or is not willing to change his thinking and behavior in the shop. It&#39;s the mindset that matters. After watching 100 videos, will the same guy put his blade guard on, use the splitter/riving knife, refrain from using his hand to push a workpiece unless it is safe to do so, use featherboards, etc.? Will he be willing to do that 100% of the time? I do that 100% of the time, even though I own a SawStop. It is my mindset that protects me, not videos. Simon</p>

[Tom Trees]

<p>

. Statistics don&#39;t lie in this case: 1 tablesaw injury every 9 minutes. Oh yes, someone would sure share something like &quot;I know a guy who smoked for 50 years and did not die from lung cancer.&quot; Would you be as lucky as that guy, if you were considering whether or not to smoke? When it comes to safety, I don&#39;t rely on luck. Simon Simon, thanks for the figures Can you back this up, or offer more informatin on this, like are those stats for the USA only ? Is it every nine minutes from 8 to 6, or whenever you guys finish up in the evening. On a YT video (this old house) it mentions at the start, that 65.000 people a year injure themselves on the TS, Does those figures seem right with your stats? Any more info would be much appreicated as theres so much disrespect for these machines saftey wise. I want to get rid of that attitude if anyone who comes by, and thinking of getting a TS without ... Owning a hand plane, and reading up and watching (good)videos on use that will take at least 3 hours to watch. Thank you Tom</p>

[Brian Henderson]

<p>
Simon, thanks for the figures Can you back this up, or offer more informatin on this, like are those stats for the USA only ? Is it every nine minutes from 8 to 6, or whenever you guys finish up in the evening. On a YT video (this old house) it mentions at the start, that 65.000 people a year injure themselves on the TS, Does those figures seem right with your stats? Any more info would be much appreicated as theres so much disrespect for these machines saftey wise. I want to get rid of that attitude if anyone who comes by, and thinking of getting a TS without ... Owning a hand plane, and reading up and watching (good)videos on use that will take at least 3 hours to watch. Thank you Tom</p>

No idea where he got his figures, but I came up with this one which might help.

https://www.wwgoa.com/article/shop-accident-statistics-woodworking-safety/

[Tom Trees]

Thanks Brian

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon, thanks for the figures Can you back this up, or offer more informatin on this, like are those stats for the USA only ? Tom

As Twain popularzied the phrase: &quot;Lies, damned lies, and statistics.&quot;
Each one of us can only trust the statistics we believe in. Mine came from the figure SawStop quotes from US Consumer Products Safety Commission. You can find it in the color SawStop brochure on the back page. It also quotes from the same source &quot;10 table saw amputations every day.&quot;
Simon

[Brian Henderson]

As Twain popularzied the phrase: "Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Each one of us can only trust the statistics we believe in. Mine came from the figure SawStop quotes from US Consumer Products Safety Commission. You can find it in the color SawStop brochure on the back page. It also quotes from the same source "10 table saw amputations every day."
Simon

Then again, they stand to benefit from bumping up the figures a little, so whatever they say is a bit suspect to begin with.

[Jerry Wright]

CPSC does in fact have a detailed report on stationary saw accidents. Even details on cuts vs kickbacks, etc. But then again, to paraphrase Blazing Saddles, "Facts, facts. We don't need no stinking facts!"

[Simon MacGowen]

<p>

Then again, they stand to benefit from bumping up the figures a little, so whatever they say is a bit suspect to begin with. As far as I know, no statisticians, authorities, academics or officials from the Commission have challenged SawStop on that. But as you pointed out, there is no harm in not beliving everything a vendor says, even if it is from a reputable business. The fact, of course, remains that table saw injuries happen a lot and those who really care about their safety will value safe practices over convenience (and in my case the money spent on the SawStop). Simon</p>

[Steve H Graham]

I'd love to see video's of you guys who seem to have all the answers in action. That would be much more educational for those of us who have been doing things a certain way forever than having to see and hear accident footage. Please post some so we can watch and learn.

Why not go to Youtube right now and watch some of the hundreds of videos produced by knowledgeable people? By "knowledgeable people," I don't mean pride-blinded old-timers who think beating the odds up until today makes them safety experts.

It's amazing to see forum members speaking out AGAINST accepted safety measures. And why do they speak out? Because it's important to save two seconds here and there. Oh, the work, lifting that three-pound table saw guard. Oh, the agony!

This whole spectacle is absurd. A guy nearly cuts several fingers off doing something everyone knows is stupid, then he does absolutely nothing to learn about safety, and then he posts a video sharing his wisdom with the rest of the world...with his hand still splinted up. It's like Ted Kennedy giving driving lessons.

It reminds me of those scam emails advertising Oprah's diet secrets. Hello? The woman weighs 300 pounds! I'd rather have Angelina Jolie's diet secrets.

I have a buddy who rode motorcycles when he was young. He wants to ride my bikes. I told him no one gets on them without taking the MSF safety and proficiency course. He said he knew everything because he had ridden for years. I asked him a simple question which a lot of uneducated riders can't answer. How do you turn a motorcycle correctly? He got it wrong. He had no idea! There are some things you can't learn from experience. It's a very treacherous teacher.

I study up on safety every time I get into something new, and I still have scares and little accidents because I don't know enough. I'll take all the safety information I can get.

[Pat Barry]

Why not go to Youtube right now and watch some of the hundreds of videos produced by knowledgeable people? By "knowledgeable people," I don't mean pride-blinded old-timers who think beating the odds up until today makes them safety experts.

It's amazing to see forum members speaking out AGAINST accepted safety measures. And why do they speak out? Because it's important to save two seconds here and there. Oh, the work, lifting that three-pound table saw guard. Oh, the agony!

This whole spectacle is absurd. A guy nearly cuts several fingers off doing something everyone knows is stupid, then he does absolutely nothing to learn about safety, and then he posts a video sharing his wisdom with the rest of the world...with his hand still splinted up. It's like Ted Kennedy giving driving lessons.

It reminds me of those scam emails advertising Oprah's diet secrets. Hello? The woman weighs 300 pounds! I'd rather have Angelina Jolie's diet secrets.

I have a buddy who rode motorcycles when he was young. He wants to ride my bikes. I told him no one gets on them without taking the MSF safety and proficiency course. He said he knew everything because he had ridden for years. I asked him a simple question which a lot of uneducated riders can't answer. How do you turn a motorcycle correctly? He got it wrong. He had no idea! There are some things you can't learn from experience. It's a very treacherous teacher.

I study up on safety every time I get into something new, and I still have scares and little accidents because I don't know enough. I'll take all the safety information I can get.
The message I was stating was that I wanted to see YOUR video not one of the 1000's of you tube videos. I wanted to have the experts look for faults in your approach to table saw safety. Sort of a 'glass houses' type of thing if you catch my drift. Point being, anyone here can pontificate about how some other idiot does things but they can't accept the fact they themselves might also be an idiot. God knows I don't want to see someone get hurt so maybe its best you don't make a video for us.

As far as the motorcycle is concerned, you need to be far more detailed in your question. How you turn a motorcycle depends on a whole lot of factors including road conditions, speed, type of motorcycle, where you are turning to and from, is a turn or just a weave, etc, etc. Similarly, cutting with a tablesaw is situational. There is no one correct answer.

[Steve H Graham]

Why would you want my safety video when you can go to Youtube or buy DVD's and watch experts?

Standing up for safety isn't "pontificating," except to people who think all advice is insulting. Good free advice is a precious gift. Isn't the guy with the splint "pontificating," by your definition? He's talking about safety, too, only the things he says are wrong and dangerous.

As for there being many ways to turn a motorcycle...it looks like you don't know the answer, either. You haven't taken the course.

[Prashun Patel]

I think this thread has run its course.

Love it or hate it, may we all stay safe.