Moxon vise design "review"?

[Bram de Jong]

Hi everyone,

Since a while I've been slowly working on a "fully parametric" version of a Moxon vise design in Fusion 360. Fully parametric meaning you can change all the sizes of width, height, thread diameter etc etc with the model still working. But I'd like some review of the model itself too. If you feel like having a look:

http://a360.co/2A7FQPL

The idea is to make a vise I can clamp to a table/bench. I know there's some kits out there, but this was a great reason to learn Fusion360, build a project and then actually make it in wood/metal with the help of a welder for the metal bits.

Try the "explode" view for more insights...


all ad-vise (bada-boom-tschhhh) is welcome!


Bram

PS: once this is done I'll share the 3D model + plans with the world.

[Matt Evans]

Looks good! Are you planning on using 3/4" stock for the whole build as the model shows, or will you be using thicker stock where you can?

The one thing I'll mention about your design. . . the front chop should be as 2" + if you have over 16" between screws. It helps, in my experience.

[Bram de Jong]

Looks good! Are you planning on using 3/4" stock for the whole build as the model shows, or will you be using thicker stock where you can?

Well, being on the other side of the ocean I'll be using mm ;) but yeah, my idea was to make the whole thing out of single sized stock. I.e. with the marked dados/... etc.


The one thing I'll mention about your design. . . the front chop should be as 2" + if you have over 16" between screws. It helps, in my experience.

Not sure what you mean by that, could you elaborate? I was planning to let the front of the vise have a little camber on it so that it SLIGHTLY cambers towards the back part in the middle between the vice, i.e. for more holding power.

Bram

[Matt Evans]

My apologies. I mis-typed a little bit, and muddied my meaning, it seems.


The front chop should be 51mm or greater in thickness if there is 405mm or greater distance between the screws. Simply adding another 19-20 mm board to the front chop would take care of that.

The camber may help with harder woods, but will hinder a little if you are using soft wood, in my opinion. You'll have to exert more pressure to get the same result, resulting in bruised wood in the center of the board you are attempting to clamp in the vise, with less bruising towards the edges. A better solution may be a leather or rubber pad on the jaws. (Thats the route I go personally.)

Borders do strange things to units of measure. . .where are you located? Didn't see a location in your profile. . .

[Bram de Jong]

The front chop should be 51mm or greater in thickness if there is 405mm or greater distance between the screws. Simply adding another 19-20 mm board to the front chop would take care of that.

Interesting! Is this based on some kind of rule-of-thumb?


The camber may help with harder woods, but will hinder a little if you are using soft wood, in my opinion. You'll have to exert more pressure to get the same result, resulting in bruised wood in the center of the board you are attempting to clamp in the vise, with less bruising towards the edges. A better solution may be a leather or rubber pad on the jaws. (Thats the route I go personally.)

Oh I was planning to add leather, so perhaps then I skip the camber...


Borders do strange things to units of measure. . .where are you located? Didn't see a location in your profile. . .

Good point! Added! Berlin/Germany...

bram

[Matt Evans]

I don't think it's a rule, but it's based on my experience building quite a few moxon/twin screw vises.

[Bram de Jong]

I don't think it's a rule, but it's based on my experience building quite a few moxon/twin screw vises.

Nice! Just saw your shop, always nice to get help from a specialist!

BTW what do you think about making this vice first out of simple pine or construction lumber? I'm really a beginner who still needs a lot of practice...

[Matt Evans]

Thanks for the compliment.

A mock-up in pine or similar would work well. Since the screws are metal inserted into the wood you won't get a lot of wear due to wood on wood movement. Not sure how long it will hold up to daily use, but I've built plenty out of softer woods and wouldn't blink an eye at building at least a prototype out of pine.

I'm a bit curious as to the lumber availability there in Germany. Also, do you have a good choice of sawmills in the your area? If so, I'd contact one and see if they have some common stock that they'd like to get rid of at a good price. That's how I get the majority of my prototype lumber and secondary lumber for drawer sides and interior parts of furniture.

[Bram de Jong]

Sadly enough I'm in a big city (Berlin) with no car, so getting to a sawmill is probably just impossible for me...

Some of the big box stores here have some stuff other than pine, but the selection is very limited and the price is high.

[James Waldron]

Nice rendering of your plan. May only question is that I don't see a garter for the front face to keep the screw in place. Have I missed something? There's a lot of screw sticking out that would be a hindrance, IMO. A garter at the end of the screw would solve that as well.

And "plus one" on the 50 mm stock. 18-25 mm is really too bendy for serious work. Thicker would be wasteful. Whatever your standard mill size around 50 mm should be fine.

[Bram de Jong]

Nice rendering of your plan. May only question is that I don't see a garter for the front face to keep the screw in place. Have I missed something? There's a lot of screw sticking out that would be a hindrance, IMO. A garter at the end of the screw would solve that as well.

Not sure what you mean, might have a lost in translation problem :)

The front of the vise would move freely on the threads. I would add a large washer between the "wheels" and the front of the vise so the wood of the front doesn't get broken up by the wheel. Does that kind of solve the garter idea?

Bram

[Bram de Jong]

I added the washer + holes to the design, have a look...

[James Waldron]

A garter joins the front face to the end of the threads so the screw can rotate, but as it moves, in or out, the face moves with it; no sliding in and out and less wear and tear. Almost any vise web sites will show a garter for almost any style of vise. Not a requirement but a very nice convenience for very little effort.

[Peter Johns]

Hi everyone,

Since a while I've been slowly working on a "fully parametric" version of a Moxon vise design in Fusion 360. Fully parametric meaning you can change all the sizes of width, height, thread diameter etc etc with the model still working. But I'd like some review of the model itself too. If you feel like having a look:

http://a360.co/2A7FQPL

The idea is to make a vise I can clamp to a table/bench. I know there's some kits out there, but this was a great reason to learn Fusion360, build a project and then actually make it in wood/metal with the help of a welder for the metal bits.

Try the "explode" view for more insights...



Congratulations - well done with the Fusion 360 - I am still only on AutoCAD 2016 2D modelling.

Question: Do you put leather / rubberised cork on both faces of the vice, or just the front chop?

[Derek Cohen]

I built my Moxon vise in 2011. I still use the basic shell ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MoxonDovetailVise_html_57a8f820.jpg

The screws are set 520mm (20 1/2") apart, but the total base is 840mm (33") long and 105mm (4 1/8") deep. The face is 110mm (4 1/4") high.

This is constructed from 1 1/4" thick Jarrah. It has never flexed and always felt solid. I would not change this.

Recently I made the second lot of modifications (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods.html) in 8 years ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods_html_2ec21fa4.jpghttp://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods_html_m4daff2b.png

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods_html_m22543ddf.jpghttp://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods_html_m4daff2b.png


Actually, shortly after this, I made a slight modification to the the fold over section, by shortening it by 1/8". There needs to be a little light behind the meeting of tail baseline and pin board.

If you do not plan to add this feature, make the chop 1/4" - 3/8" lower than the rear of the vise, otherwise you will cut up the chop when transferring marks.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan Schwabacher]

I would question the desirability of the level surface behind the back jaw of the vise. Many years ago I built a "bench on bench" that had such a surface with dog holes, and a vise on the front. I did not find the surface useful. A few years ago I made a Moxon type vise without that back surface, and it gets a lot more use.

A block of wood, or a plane on its side, placed on your bench behind the Moxon will support your work, without causing problems of interference, manipulation, or storage of the vise. Note that Derek's is lacking the back surface.

[Mike Brady]

In response to Alan's comments about the bench-on-bench design for a Moxon vise, I will next week be building such a design with British woodworker Derek Jones (Marc Adams School). Derek points out that having the area behind the vise's rear jaw allows the secure clamping of boards to transfer dovetail profiles to mating boards. Yes, it does make a larger assembly to store, but the idea is to have versatile and secure work holding at a height that is ideal for sawing; particularly dovetails. Derek Jones' design is larger than my instincts would have made it. I'm relying on his experience.https://lostartpress.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/dj_moxon_img_0188.jpg?w=640

[Derek Cohen]

There is a small ledge at the rear of my Moxon, not a table ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HarlequinTable_html_207506a0.jpg

This is wide enough to attach a clamp.

It folds away when not needed ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods_html_41183ba.jpg

I made a slight mod to this moxon by cutting back the fold over rest slightly. It is important to be able to check the rear join as well as the front position of the tails on the pin board ...

https://i.postimg.cc/yxq5TxHz/cut-back.jpg

The built-in square is also a waste of time for me. Many of the drawers I dovetail are compound angles, such as the bow fronts I am making at present. A square is not useful. All that is needed is a square like this ....

https://i.postimg.cc/t475YbKd/square.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

Derek, I see a portable support behind your Moxon vise. A table eliminates that extra appliance plus gives you dog holes to employ, in my case, the Veritas Hold-down to secure hold the tail board while marking (the blue tape).

I'm interested in your opinion about the security of holdfasts bearing on the "horns" of the rear chop. They appear to be adequate to prevent vise movement in your set up, but many Moxon users employ F-clamps there.

I'm using ash and Benchcrafted screws so this piece will be a load.....:)

[Bill Carey]

Hey Bram - nice job on the fusion drawing. I may have to try it - the explode view is cool.

I'm in the beta stage of a moxon. Need to finish several other projects then it's moxon time.Mine is going to be higher than most - probably 10" or so - the extra height is more comfortable for me. And I'll have a surface behind with T tracks for hold downs. I have the advantage of being able to mount it semi permanently so if it's a bit hefty that's ok. My first go round had a 2" piece of oak for the chop, but I changed it to 1". I can set the left side to the thickness of the board and tighten or loosen the right screw to remove the board or lock it in place. And the 1" actually bows around the piece a bit when tightened and without leather or anything but the oak I have not had a board move on me in the 6 months I've been playing with it. And the chop is an 1/8" lower than the table, so I can use a square to line up the board before clamping it down. The back jaw of the vise (the back chop??) overhangs the bench to make it easier to get pieces in and out. I'm no expert - just started playing around with it. And it is certainly no piece of furniture yet. Might be soon - but it's pretty rough at the moment.
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[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I see a portable support behind your Moxon vise. A table eliminates that extra appliance plus gives you dog holes to employ, in my case, the Veritas Hold-down to secure hold the tail board while marking (the blue tape).

I'm interested in your opinion about the security of holdfasts bearing on the "horns" of the rear chop. They appear to be adequate to prevent vise movement in your set up, but many Moxon users employ F-clamps there.

I'm using ash and Benchcrafted screws so this piece will be a load.....:)

Mike, I have long recommended against using a table behind and attached to the Moxon vise. It adds the appearance of assistance, but in reality complicates matters.

I do not know how many dovetails you have marked and cut. This is not intended as a put down. I really do not know your experience here. I can only explain mine, and why I say what I say.

Lets take just one aspect of the table: It fixes the height behind the vise. Let me borrow Bill's set up for a moment ...


https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=412733&d=1563157605

Imagine that board is the tail board and the pin board is below it for transfer of the tail marks. What is likely to happen is that the knife being used will slide across the edge of the pin board and begin to cut up the chop.

The backing to the chop in my Moxon lifts the tail board high enough that this does no occur (the flip over section is a spacer, and the "I-beam" at the rear is made at a sympathetic height). Even so, there are still some knife marks on the chop ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ModsfortheMoxon_html_677cde63.jpg


The recent photo of the modified Moxon does the same, but just extends the spacer into a wider surface so that wide boards (such as for a case) may also be clamped ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HarlequinTable_html_207506a0.jpg


Secondly, a continuous corner behind the chop is not a good idea because it limits the visibility for joining boards. Some boards need to join from the end of the tails, and some from their baseline. Not all dovetails are the same.

Hence I cut back the rest at the edge ...

https://i.postimg.cc/yxq5TxHz/cut-back.jpg

Look at this layout ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m299ba2fb.jpg


... that became ... a bowed drawer front ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_mecae361.jpg


I am building other drawers at the present, and the sides are angled to fit into a curved front. They cannot lie flat. The rear has to be raised up ...

https://i.postimg.cc/cHTGYPx7/Dovetailing-drawer-fronts.jpg

This is how much out-of-square they are ...

https://i.postimg.cc/KjHXpLgR/A15.jpg


Some insights from my experience.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Carey]

Hi Derek - with all the respect in the world, I gotta disagree. The chop is a piece of wood - so what if it gets marked up - replace it. And it just seems more efficient to have the table - no hunting for the I-beam, flipping up the stop, moving everything out of the way, hunting for the clamps, etc. Frankly, after our last posts about moxons I seriously considered your version because its so elegant and the form is very nice. A really good looking jig. But for me it's not very efficient, and not a very elegant solution to the problem of holding the wood for marking and then holding it for cutting. And I wanted to give Bram another take on moxons for his consideration. More info is always better than less info, IMHO.

BTW I used the moxon this weekend for my version of the 6 minute blind dovetails (my first try at them). But I ran out of film at the 1.5 hour mark. :eek:

Regards from Morocco

[Derek Cohen]

Bill, as I mentioned, this is my experience. Everyone has a different need. I respect that you may use the Moxon differently to me.

I plan to build a new Moxon (with steel screws and wheels) when my current built is done. I recognise that I do a lot of angled dovetails. Therefore a table at the rear is not for me. I want to keep this one as simple as possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

I will share a few of these suggestions with Derek Jones, editor of Furniture and Cabinet Making magazine in the UK, while I am with him this weekend. It will be interesting to get his take on dovetailing technique, as all of the students in the workshop will be comparing his methodology with their own. His Moxon design features dovetails throughout.

[Tom Bussey]

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[steven c newman]

There was a fellow a while back....that used the bar and the weight clamps to build a Moxxon vise.....one clamp was "fixed" to the back of the back jaw....the other moved the moving chop. Trying to remember where he posted it.....basically, he walked into Walmart, walked out with the parts, and built....

[Tony Zaffuto]

There was a fellow a while back....that used the bar and the weight clamps to build a Moxxon vise.....one clamp was "fixed" to the back of the back jaw....the other moved the moving chop. Trying to remember where he posted it.....basically, he walked into Walmart, walked out with the parts, and built....

Kudos on adding the practicality side to things, Bandit!

[Derek Cohen]

I am in the process of quite a lot of dovetailing of drawers. This has given me the opportunity to test out the current design. All can say, if you plan to copy it, is don’t! The side fence and the larger flip over do not work as well as the previous design. I shall be rebuilding my Moxon back to that design. KIS.

Keep in mind that I have been building a lot of curved drawers over the past few years. Side fences do not work for these. My little wooden square (shown in one of the photos) is terrific. I shall have to show how it works, because it does so in ways that are not immediately obvious. I am even more adamant that a rear table is silly and is the type of addition that only an inexperienced dovetailer will include. Sorry if this appears condescending and self-righteous. Even the trimmed-back ledge I added (above) is an unnecessary intrusion.

Keep it simple. I’m going back to Mk ll.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Bender]

Tom Bussey, that's a slick solution.

[Mike Brady]

I just finished a Moxon vise with an attached work table, as seen in the photo in my prior post. I used the excellent Benchcrafted hardware made for Moxon vises. There is a factor in choosing vise hardware that bears upon your design. If you choose to not have structure other than the front and rear jaws, then wood screws would be advisable, as in Derek's vise. If you opt for metal vise hardware such as Benchcrafted, using that same design, the result will be a much heavier vise with a center of gravity that will be well in front of the edge of the workbench to which your Moxon is attached. This presents the possibility that the entire assembly could fall from the benchtop when loosening the clamps or hold-fasts and impact your lower body and/or the floor. If you include a table in your Moxon design, as I did, the weight of the vise hardware is balanced by the mass of the wood parts.

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, I have just posted the attached design on the Power forum. I am interested in the possibility of using the Moxon to hold a board and also to be able to rout out waste with a trim router.

I am about to build a new Moxon, first full one in 10 years, using iron wheels (ala BC). This is what I have come up with ...

https://i.postimg.cc/tR1H57KN/Moxon-Design.jpg

In this design, the front chop has a rebate. As the chop is set up in the design above, there is full support on both sides of the board when sawing. Now reverse the chop, and the rebate on the outside becomes a rebate on the inside, and this provides space for the router bit to clear the pin board.

At the rear of the vise is a hinged spacer. This has three purposes; firstly, it lifts the tail board above the chop, which would be cut up by a knife when transferring marks if coplanar. Secondly, it is easier to align tail and pin boards if there is space around them (which is why I dislike the designs which have a continuous shelf at the rear of the vise. Thirdly, the spacer becomes a ledge to which one can attach clamps (if needed).

Most of these ideas (the exception being the rebate in the chop) I have been testing for at least 10 years, in which time I have hand cut many hundreds of dovetails.

What do you think?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

Derek:
I think that if you decide to use the very heavy and wonderful Benchcrafted hardware with that design you should be very aware that removing your clamps or holdfasts requires care or even removal of the cast iron spin wheels prior. Since you asked for an opinion, I would stay with the wood screws with that design for the aforementioned reason. If you are wanting to utilize the premium iron hardware I would suggest a wider and deeper overall design that would be geared to those wonderful wide panels you have been dovetailing lately.

Ps: You were robbed of first place at that wood show.

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, thanks for the kind words about the competition.

The rear of the Moxon vise has a wide ledge, which is held by hold fasts ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods_html_m22543ddf.jpghttp://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NewMoxonMods_html_m4daff2b.png

Does that make a difference when using the cast wheels?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

Nope. All of the mass of the screws and wheels will be outboard of the front of bench. I don't mean too overstate the issue, but if you had the metal screws and wheels on that vise in the picture; and then removed the two clamps at the ends of the vise, that entire assembly will be at or on your feet. That's just the physics of the situation unless you have some mass behaind the vise that offsets the weight of the metal parts. Don't ask me how I know this.:rolleyes:


https://i.postimg.cc/hPqDL7mf/IMG-0425-2.jpg

I also would like to correct my post: When referring to the center of gravity of the metal vise components be in front of the main work bench, I should have said that it is the weight of the metal vise components combined with the mass of the wood vise jaw that creates a hazard for the vise toppling to the floor when unclamped.