Live edge dining table - questions

[Michael Furey]

Hey guys, so I'm coming here for some advice or tips/tricks things I should know. I'm a pretty experienced wood worker, however I have never done anything live edge. I got some really nice pieces of spalted white oak and I want to make a dining table and coffee table from them. They're 10''; long and roughly 15-16''; wide, and they've been drying for a few years I believe, so the moisture content is around 11-12%. I'm going to cut clean edges on both sides of one board to use as the middle and just one side on each of the others and leave the live edge in tact on both sides. There's not really any splitting or anything but if I do come across any, I'll put a butterfly key in. I really just want to know if there's any tips from people who have done these before. Especially with the finishing. I plan on leaving it as is and just sealing it with some clear Rubio monocoat. Also still undecided on what I'm going to do about the base. Thoughts on everything? I've attached a picture.

[Jamie Buxton]

If the moisture content is really 11-12% when you flatten these boards, they'll likely dry further. As they dry, they'll cup, and they'll get a little narrower. As a minimum, I'd be organizing them as bark-down, bark-up, and bark-down. That way, the overall table top stays closer to flat, albeit somewhat wavey. I'd also arrange the base so that there are rather sturdy cleats crossing the table top, helping to hold it flat. Of course, the cleats must be fastened to the top with a sliding joint of some sort, so that the shrinkage in the top doesn't break it apart.

[Michael Furey]

If the moisture content is really 11-12% when you flatten these boards, they'll likely dry further. As they dry, they'll cup, and they'll get a little narrower. As a minimum, I'd be organizing them as bark-down, bark-up, and bark-down. That way, the overall table top stays closer to flat, albeit somewhat wavey. I'd also arrange the base so that there are rather sturdy cleats crossing the table top, helping to hold it flat. Of course, the cleats must be fastened to the top with a sliding joint of some sort, so that the shrinkage in the top doesn't break it apart.
i just checked the moisture and they’re 15-16%. Thought it was lower. I was told the tree was cut down about 7 years ago and the log cut about 4 years ago. The boards are already pretty dead flat and straight. I’ll still flatten them, but I’m pretty sure I won’t be taking much material off.

[andy bessette]

Live edge will just make for a very uncomfortable dining table.

[Michael Furey]

Live edge will just make for a very uncomfortable dining table.

What do you mean by that? I just see so many live edge tables out there and so many woodworkers selling them, they have to be doing something right. I think these slabs will be pretty good as far as staying where they’re at and not warping or cupping.

[andy bessette]

Live edge will just make for a very uncomfortable dining table.


What do you mean by that?...

Form follows function (for any designer worthy of his reputation). People rest their forearms on the edge of a dining table. A live edge here is quite possibly the very worst choice you can make (besides it being virtually a cliche, it is so over-used). This is an application for a smooth edge design that welcomes its use, not an edge that approximates a serrated knife.

[David Utterback]

You have plenty of nice wood to complete your project. With the bark side up on the two edge pieces, they will be naturally chamfered and you can relieve the bottom of the edges to make them less sharp.

Wood that has been air dried outdoors will normally equilibrate at about 15% in many parts of the country. I don't know what it would dry to in arid regions. It is safest to move them indoors and let them further dry to 8% or lower before milling. That should only take a couple of weeks.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Michael Furey]

Form follows function (for any designer worthy of his reputation). People rest their forearms on the edge of a dining table. A live edge here is quite possibly the very worst choice you can make (besides it being virtually a cliche, it is so over-used). This is an application for a smooth edge design that welcomes its use, not an edge that approximates a serrated knife.

just so you’re aware and have all the facts, I’m not cutting a tree down, slapping on some legs and calling it a table. I’m actually going to work the wood properly. Taking all the bark off and sanding everything smooth, including the edges. There won’t be any sharpness or uncomfortableness to it at all.

[Brian Holcombe]

Live edge is fine for a dining table. I’d bring them to a mill with a kiln and have them brought to a lower moisture content.

Build a base that either moves with the top or allows the top to move.

[Erik Christensen]

just finished a live-edge slab dining table for outdoors - 4' x 12'. spent a lot of time hand sanding the live edges after rounding over sharp edges with a rasp - worked great but did spend most part of a day on just the edges. no comfort issues at all.

I just leveled the top - sanded bottom so it was sooth to the touch but not flat - only flattened where the legs attached.

[Brian Holcombe]

A draw knife and a spoke make very fast work of tuning up live edges.

[scott lipscomb]

Wire wheel (no sanding) on a grinder on Tanoak live edge worked really well for me. Removed all of the loose stuff and left all of the character. As for the edge of a table, its really smooth and people like to touch it.

[Bradley Gray]

As others have said, live edges can be softened and can be comfortable.

I have found that in my area even if I dry wood to 8% if it sits around any length of time it will rebound to 10-11%.

It is really important to allow airflow to both sides of the boards during construction and to sand and finish the top and bottom equally. I generally stack the stock on a dead flat surface with stickers below and between pieces and clamp the stack when it is time to quit for the day.

Be sure and attach the finished top to it's base in a way that allows for movement.

[Bill Space]

Form follows function (for any designer worthy of his reputation). People rest their forearms on the edge of a dining table. A live edge here is quite possibly the very worst choice you can make (besides it being virtually a cliche, it is so over-used). This is an application for a smooth edge design that welcomes its use, not an edge that approximates a serrated knife.

Wow! So counter to my experience! Over the years I have sat at numerous live edge tables and counters while in Japan and rather than feeling uncomfortable, as a lover of wood, I actually always greatly enjoyed the experience...I don't think live edge tables need to have a sharp edge (I would guess that most do not). Nor do they need to be uncomfortable.

I am sure the OP will love the live edge table he builds. No doubt I would..:)

Bill

[Prashun Patel]

Saying live edge is cliche And uncomfortable is a generalization. There is room for good design and good function in this style.

It's as easy and misguided to dismiss the style out of hand as it is to slap any old slab on any old base and call it Nakashima.

[Bill Dufour]

OP needs to say where he lives. His local humidity could be anything and that makes a big difference in how dry the wood should be before using it. In my area 15% seems awfully high since summer humidity over 40% is considered very swampy here but 90 miles towards the coast humidity can easily be much higher. We get no dew here all summer long.
Bill D.
Modesto , CA. USA

[Andrew Hughes]

That's what I was thinking maybe it's as good as it will get with the MC. You don't need our suggestions all you need is curiosity,good energy and uncertainty. It's the surprise at the end that keep us coming back.
Good luck

[andy bessette]

... There is room for good design and good function in this style...

There is, when it is inspired, but that is extremely rare as most comes out looking contrived, unfinished and DIY crude.

[Michael Furey]

<p>

OP needs to say where he lives. His local humidity could be anything and that makes a big difference in how dry the wood should be before using it. In my area 15% seems awfully high since summer humidity over 40% is considered very swampy here but 90 miles towards the coast humidity can easily be much higher. We get no dew here all summer long. Bill D. Modesto , CA. USA</p>
<p>
I live in NJ on the coast and the tree came from NJ. I was told it was cut down 7 years ago and milled 4 years ago. And since then has been air drying properly. Was contemplating taking the slabs to a mill with a kiln just to get the MC a little lower before I start working it.</p>

[Prashun Patel]

Where in NJ are you? I'm from Joisey too!

What thickness are those pieces?

If the slabs are < 2" thick, then IMHO I would not bother with the KD. If they have milled and air dried for 4 years, it surpasses any rule of thumb I would go by.

[Mike Cutler]

Michael

15%-20% for 'Jersey is probably about right. To lower the MC below that will require Kiln, or a DH's environment. ( You could always bring them in house for a few months. ;))

I think some folks might be misinterpreting Andy's comments a little bit, as a generalized criticism. I don't see them that way.
Live edge, just for the sake of live edge, can be a mistake. The rest of the design elements have to be present, or it just looks like someone was trying to "effect" a look. Overdone as Andy stated. Grain direction and figure, edge appearance, finish type and quality, having chairs that compliment the table, ad it's final setting, are essential, or it can end up looking "hackish".
There is no hiding anything in a live edge table. It's all there. The edge itself has to have an element of it's own, and you're only going to find that out once you begin the edge preparation. Not every rough sawn slab of wood is a candidate for a live edge piece of work.
I've done a few live edge pieces for my wife, who if possible would want to keep the bark,moss, and lichen,intact, and one very large table top. It's not my cuppa', so to speak, but I can appreciate the form when it is executed well.
I think Andrew has the best advice;
Give the project a whirl and see how it looks in the end. If you like it, that is all that matters.

[Michael Furey]

Where in NJ are you? I&#39;m from Joisey too! What thickness are those pieces? If the slabs are < 2&quot; thick, then IMHO I would not bother with the KD. If they have milled and air dried for 4 years, it surpasses any rule of thumb I would go by.
oh cool! I am in Manahawkin. The boards are 2 inches thick. I was going to originally make like a 6-7 ft table but these boards are so long, I will probably just cut them to that length and do a coffee table as well. So if I cut them I&rsquo;ll probably just bring them in the house for a while and let them dry out a litttle more before I start working on them. But if 15% is going to be normal for this area then I&rsquo;ll just go with that and see what I come up with. Do you think I will have any issues with warping/cracking/splitting? I do plan to use butterfly keys on any slots that are splitting already but there is not much. I will finish both sides as well and use a base that allows for movement.

[Mike Cutler]

Michael

As long as you allow for expansion and contraction, across the top, and design it into the base, you should have no issues.

Bringing them into the house is a good idea. No many folks have this flexibility.

[Andrew Gibson]

In my opinion live edge requires a lot of work to make a successful piece. More often than not I believe a slab requires modification to the overall shape and refinement to the "live edge" itself. 373052Here is a picture of my last live edge piece I made for myself. The top is 48" x 28" x 2" at least it would be if the oval was complete.

Even here in Florida I would expect a 2" slab to be down around 12% after 4 years. The pictured slabs look more like maple to me than oak, but that is just a guess.

[Andrew Hughes]

[QUOTE=Andrew Gibson;2751749]In my opinion live edge requires a lot of work to make a successful piece. More often than not I believe a slab requires modification to the overall shape and refinement to the "live edge" itself. 373052Here is a picture of my last live edge piece I made for myself. The top is 48" x 28" x 2" at least it would be if the oval was

Very good looking table Andrew. I like it.:)

[Brian Holcombe]

I’ve enjoyed live edge since I first saw it, I don’t make much of it but occasionally;

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/img_8927.jpg

[Bill McNiel]

Bark is removed by light prying with chisels and sharp blades. The edges by hand using a progression of rasps and then some finish sanding. Very comfortable to sit adjacent to, eat from and rest arms upon. Waterlox OSF is my go to finish for tables and counters that are likely to experience wet glasses and normal abuse.

Andy -a bit of caution- using absolutes and glittering generalities puts one in a very precarious position as does attempting to dictate what is art and what is good and what is not. You might consider framing your thoughts/beliefs? with IMHO or a similar disclaimer unless, of course, you have actually been anointed as the one true purveyor of truth and beauty.

[andy bessette]

...Andy... You might consider framing your thoughts/beliefs? with IMHO...

When everyone is required to prefix each and every opinion with "IMHO" I will reluctantly do so. ;)

[lowell holmes]

We shouldn't have to defend our opinions, that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.:)

[Brian Holcombe]

I don’t mind the opinions being stated at all, even if I don’t agree.

[Scott T Smith]

Michael, I work with a lot of live edge slabs and I would highly advise you to take those to a kiln operator and have them dried below 10%. The slabs that you describe will require about 7-10 days in a kiln to dry below 10%. Be sure that they are sterilized at the end of the kiln run.

The other thing that is very important is to finish all sides of the slabs with the same type of finish and same number of coats.

Rubio monocoat will provide a warm oil color, but it is not ideal for wide slab tables because it is not very impervious to moisture and wide slabs will noticeably cup if exposed to changes in RH%. My advice would be to cover the Rubio after it dries with 2-3 coats of post catalyzed conversion varnish (all sides). Post cat is best applied in a spray booth and while wearing a respirator.

[Brian Holcombe]

Tables like these, and any wide tables really, should be properly battened. The base helps to do this and this is one of the things often ignored by metal bases.

Most tables made like this in Japan, where they are very common but typically well made, are made with sliding dovetail battens. They will usually not do anything more than an oil finish, but when properly battened they tend not to do strange things.

I don't usually build really wide tables from one piece, but all of those that I have built are still quite flat.

It's also common now to make these tables out of exceptionally thick material, not sure why that is but it does a disservice to the structure. If you keep the table to around 1.5"-1.75" thick it'll make life easier for the table as the structure will be able to effect it with a greater chance of success.

[Filip Winiewicz]

Gentelmen, seeing so many woodworkers experienced working with live edge slab I'd like to use the opportunity to ad my questions.

1. I'm from Poland but I live in Hong Kong and HK is a place where I started woodworking. I'm planning to ship some 2 inch thick slabs from Poland to here and I'm wondering what influence the difference in humidity in both countries might have on the wood meaning moving the slabs from place with lower humidity where they were seasoned for 2-3 years to place more humid. It seems also that humid seasons in both places are reversed - humid winter in Poland vs humid summer in Hong Kong. Would it be more safe to ship the slabs during more humid season in Poland? I know wood will cup when it get more dry but what if it will gain moisture in new place? Could that work in my favor that even indoor residential spaces in HK will have higher humidity 60-70% - will cupping still happen? I've read that I should let the wood acclimate for a while but how to acclimate the wood if the table would be finally placed in air-coned office space that will be for sure more dry than what I can get in my workshop?

2. I'm planning to weld a steel frame as base for the slab. Would it be better to fasten the slab to the frame to prevent it from cupping or would it be better to just place it on top on some bolts fixed to the frame and let it move?

3. I spoke some time ago with experienced carpenter about the bedside tables he did for my mother. I delivered him 500mm wide slab of ash - 2 inch thick and he said it has to be re-sawn and glued together (what he did immediately) , with center part removed to prevent cupping. I can see many examples of single piece tables. What would be the necessary steps to avoid cupping?
Filip,
HK, PRC
380509 380510
380511

[Keith Weber]

I'm from Poland but I live in Hong Kong and HK is a place where I started woodworking.

Filip,

Just curious where you do woodworking in HKG. You must be in South Lantau, DB, or the New Territories. I've lived in Tung Chung for about 11 years. I have some hand power tools there, but living in a flat on the 55th floor of a high rise isn't the most ideal place for a woodworking hobby. I keep my real shop in the US and fly back to use it whenever I can. More space, easy access to quality tools and materials for cheaper prices.

[Filip Winiewicz]

Filip,

Just curious where you do woodworking in HKG. You must be in South Lantau, DB, or the New Territories. I've lived in Tung Chung for about 11 years. I have some hand power tools there, but living in a flat on the 55th floor of a high rise isn't the most ideal place for a woodworking hobby. I keep my real shop in the US and fly back to use it whenever I can. More space, easy access to quality tools and materials for cheaper prices.

Hey Keith, I live on Lamma Island. Yep HK might be the least friendly place to do woodworking. Are you still in HK? We can chat on fb or whatsapp.

[Keith Weber]

Filip,

I sent you a PM.