Kitchen Cabinet Cost per Lineal Foot?

[Bill Space]

Hi,

I was reading a thread today about the value of a kitchen cabinet installation…

Several posts in that thread mentioned lineal foot prices for Cabinet installation. I assume that would include the base cabinet in the upper cabinets above it (and not the counter top). But I don’t know!

I seem to recall the price of $300 per lineal foot as being considered extremely cheap. Is this truly the case? I assume that is for custom cabinets of some type. As compared to the box store type of cabinet.

I’m really curious about what these costs represent. Would cabinets made from plywood boxes, with solid doors and drawer fronts command more than $300 per lineal foot? I assume so, because in the other thread I read people seemed to laugh at the $300 Per lineal price (my impression right or wrong ).

I know now the answer is “ it depends”. But in the general sense, for plywood cabinets faced with basic wood like cherry, red oak or ash, maybe maple, what would one expect to pay?

Is there a general basic charge per lineal foot, on top of which the cost of exotic materials would be added?

I suppose this is just intellectual curiosity, I build my own cabinets and what it costs other people to install them doesn’t really matter to me. But I’m really curious about it! I only have two houses to worry about anyway…

i just feel feel like I need educated!

Bill

[Martin Wasner]

I'm about $700/ft for bases, and about $350 for wall cabinets. Those are quick and dirty numbers that don't include finishing or installation, and can end up wildly different depending on options and specie.

I charge per foot for the different sized cabinet. That's just the cabinet and the standard amount of shelves. Everything adds something. Door, drawer, paneled end, finished end, then an upgrade percentage depending on the specie, which is weighed out by yield, cost, and workability of the specie.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Never understood the per foot pricing thing...

As long as we’ve been in the cabinet business (early 70’s) we’ve priced as a job. I price the boxes, guts (drawers and trays, any specialty hardware like euro garbage, special corners, etc) doors and fronts, finishing panels, slides, hinges, decorative hardware, any lighting, trim, etc.

Then there is materials and style... is it a melamine boxed frameless? Or wood face frame (specie makes a huge cost difference) or hybrid? Stained and clear coat or solid colour/paint grade?

So many options, per foot price is meaningless.

[Steve Milito]

Never understood the per foot pricing thing...

As long as we’ve been in the cabinet business (early 70’s) we’ve priced as a job. I price the boxes, guts (drawers and trays, any specialty hardware like euro garbage, special corners, etc) doors and fronts, finishing panels, slides, hinges, decorative hardware, any lighting, trim, etc.

Then there is materials and style... is it a melamine boxed frameless? Or wood face frame (specie makes a huge cost difference) or hybrid? Stained and clear coat or solid colour/paint grade?

So many options, per foot price is meaningless.

The only thing that 'per foot' pricing could possibly do is provide a ball park number to weed out people that don't want to spend what it cost to remodel a kitchen so you don't waste time working on a real quote.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

The only thing that 'per foot' pricing could possibly do is provide a ball park number to weed out people that don't want to spend what it cost to remodel a kitchen so you don't waste time working on a real quote.

I understand that, but if you’ve been in the business a while you should be able to estimate within several grand just by seeing the space and getting an idea what they are after. Guesstimate I guess would be more accurate. I get a pretty good feel for people after 20+ yrs at the helm of our business, and can usually gauge how serious people are by talking initially to them. We don’t get every job, but I feel if they are shopping around, they should have a reasonably accurate estimate (without going into great detail) to compare to the other shops.

I’ve worked out the per foot price on several completed kitchens we’ve made ( just for fun) and they are all over the place. Too broad a spread for me to use as an estimate in my case. On the kitchen were currently just completing, that would be about $650/ft not including the counters. But we’ve been twice that, and cheaper too.

In my case sometimes its as simple as asking what their budget is... if in my head its already much lower than what I think it will cost, I turn down the opportunity or just say we cannot accommodate the schedule, etc.

[jack duren]

I price by the foot... In commercial bidding by the foot is common..

[Bill Space]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I posted this question because until I read, in a recent thread, about pricing cabinets per lineal foot, it had not occurred to me that one would do that. But it seemed like it could be a logical approach.

I mean, if one were to analyze costs involved with producing cabinets, it seems like the labor would be about the same regardless if low or high end materials were used. And the board feet of materials would be about the same. And so on. Granted the number of drawers and doors would differ in each case. And hardware costs could differ significantly. But baselines could be established it appears.

Anyway, none of this matters to me because I am never going to be doing any of this as a way to make money. Being retired and doing what I like as a hobby suits me perfectly.

My impression from the input above is, if one were to use a dollars per lineal foot number, that $500 per lineal foot of cabinets (upper and lower) installed would be a very low end installation. I do understand the amount of generalization included in such a statement!

Glad my labor is free and I have a nice amount of kiln dried ash that I harvested from a tree on my property, for a net cost per board foot that many would consider as being free!

Thanks again for your input!

Bill

[jack duren]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I posted this question because until I read, in a recent thread, about pricing cabinets per lineal foot, it had not occurred to me that one would do that. But it seemed like it could be a logical approach.

I mean, if one were to analyze costs involved with producing cabinets, it seems like the labor would be about the same regardless if low or high end materials were used. And the board feet of materials would be about the same. And so on. Granted the number of drawers and doors would differ in each case. And hardware costs could differ significantly. But baselines could be established it appears.

Anyway, none of this matters to me because I am never going to be doing any of this as a way to make money. Being retired and doing what I like as a hobby suits me perfectly.

My impression from the input above is, if one were to use a dollars per lineal foot number, that $500 per lineal foot of cabinets (upper and lower) installed would be a very low end installation. I do understand the amount of generalization included in such a statement!

Glad my labor is free and I have a nice amount of kiln dried ash that I harvested from a tree on my property, for a net cost per board foot that many would consider as being free!

Thanks again for your input!

Bill

This would all depend on the what and where your bidding on and the price...Every cabinet or commercial has it's way of bidding. A successful shop doen't care if anyone approves of there method of bidding, only that it is profitable. Commercial shops bid and must be in the middle between 1-10. If your not between 3-7 your already out..

Different set of rules and equipment for commercial and residential...

[Rick Potter]

I asked a friend over 20 years ago, who did cabinets as a second job, what he charged. I was interested because I had recently finished my own kitchen. He said he did about one kitchen a month, and charged $200 a foot for them. That seemed to me at the time as pretty cheap, and a lot of work for a side job, so he explained how he did it.

He used all Red Oak, no particle board. When I asked why not, he said it was too heavy for one man. He used plywood cases, face frame construction, standard hinges, and only a few stains to choose from, shot with polyurethane finish. Insides were unfinished. He had only two sets of shaper cutters to choose from, and made raised panel traditional style doors. They looked good, and were much better made than the ready to buy cabinets at the home centers.

His price did not include installation (had an installer available), or counter tops. He had stacks of pre-made rails, stiles, and door parts which he could cut to needed size quickly which he made in his spare time. His 16 year old son did some of this work for him. I got some lumber through him at the local hardwood supplier, at a discount. This work was all done in his garage.

He always seemed to have work. He made money at it because he standardized with two styles of cabinets in only a few colors of stain. Like I said, nice cabinets, but absolutely no bells or whistles.

Like I said, it was over 20 years ago.

[Edwin Santos]

Different set of rules and equipment for commercial and residential...

This has been my experience also on the commercial side. There is far less in the way of variables when compared to residential. Unless there is a project spec that calls out for something exotic, you can safely assume the requirements will be standard dimensions for uppers and lowers, p-lam (cabinets and countertops), euro hinges, wire pulls, full extension side mount slides and shelves/pins in the cabinets. Especially in medical and standard office installations. All the architect ever cares about is the p-lam selections. When you know those are the conditions, you can price by the foot with a few disclaimers, like Jack probably does.

I've heard of sophisticated residential contractors who have a sales process that is rather like "building" a car purchase online where you start with the base model and add options, each at a cost, and sometimes deduct features for credit also. Naturally, the final price comes only after a meeting or two where all these options are selected and finalized. The starting point could be on a price/foot guideline and modified from there. I guess there are lots of ways to skin the cat.

I'm not sure any of this answers what the OP was seeking. If you're doing it for yourself for fun, satisfaction, personal savings, then it's a radically different perspective altogether from a business owner doing it professionally.

[Martin Wasner]

I've heard of sophisticated residential contractors who have a sales process that is rather like "building" a car purchase online where you start with the base model and add options, each at a cost, and sometimes deduct features for credit also. Naturally, the final price comes only after a meeting or two where all these options are selected and finalized. The starting point could be on a price/foot guideline and modified from there. I guess there are lots of ways to skin the cat.


That's pretty much how I do it. Each cabinet comes out of my software with a number. From there I just fill in cells in a spreadsheet to get my final price for that cabinet and it totals up the cost of that cabinet, and then all of the cabinets combined. It's been modified and tuned a zillion times over to get it dialed in, or make things easier. A per foot is just getting you in the ballpark, and like Andrew said you can usually walk into a room and know it'll be X amount give or take.

I try not to get put on the spot and spit out a number though. I hate being way off, and that happens. I usually say "Let me get back to you" Then my number is dead on for what is drawn. If the price changes, that's because something changed.

I used to just clump everything together, but most of my builders want a break down of what each individual room costs. Sometimes if there's actually a budget involved, they'll want separate pricing of something specific that they know will be expensive and their client might not have the funds. Like doing a $1800 curved hood enclosure, vs a $600 square box for the hood liner. Most of the time they want things broken down by room. Not a big deal with a few rooms. A small pain in the rear when there's close to 20 rooms with cabinets in them on a really big project.


I envy the commercial world as a business owner. It's a bit more cut throat, but a whole lot more straight forward. I've got nothing to base this on, but I feel like the margins are way better. You certainly can get away with far less equipment. The nicest shops/buildings around here are commercial. With a few exceptions, most of the residential are dirty, poorly lit, run down buildings.

[jack duren]

Commercial...Bidding comes and goes on a fax machine. Now disks or downloads are available for inspection and bidding on the net. A job worth serious bidding you'll have prints made. I think they were $10 a sheet. Detail,detail,details...

Residential...Your my first bid but I like you. You get the job....Take a personal recorder and record the conversation...

Word of advise....Never assume anything...........

[Justin Ludwig]

The numbers you all post makes me drool.

The only time my numbers get above $300/LF is with moldings and finish included.

I know my material is less expensive here, but not to the tune of 100% difference in pricing.


Everyone here asks: "How much are cabinets?" And I just want to punch myself in the face. "How much is a truck," I reply? And then I have to explain that analogy to them. Even the builders want a LF price. I ballpark, but my pricing is based like Andrew's. Cabinet Vision takes care of it for me because I have every material cost and mark up input into the program.

[Martin Wasner]

It's all in who you work for. I got lucky where some things fell into place where I don't work for broke schmucks like you and I. It was luck that got me in with my first contractor in the area I work, and luck that got me the others. Right place, right time. For every gained opportunity, I've probably missed a thousand though, some because I declined, others because I screwed something up.


We've got a little kitchen rolling through the shop right now. The smallest kitchen I've done in a long time. 21' of wall, $8,955.11, no finishing or install. It's about as bare bones as you can get with four drawers in the whole kitchen, and no options really. That works out to basically $420/ft for base and upper combined. I didn't figure the oven space, dishwasher, or windows out of that either. Just wall measurements.

Two kitchens ago was fairly loaded up, nothing crazy, but all paint grade so no expensive lumber. 42.6' of wall, $19,093.61. That is $449/ft and there's 7' of window with no uppers, 4' for a cased opening missing out of that, and a dishwasher. Also no finishing, no installation. Take that other stuff out, that's $614/ft for bases and uppers combined.


What's going to make you cry Justin, is that's wholesale pricing. If I'm dealing directly with the homeowner, I mark everything up 25% It also costs me $7k a month to keep this beast afloat not including payroll.

I wish we had a professional forum to discuss things like this. I'd pay for that. The woodweb interface is tiresome. I hadn't taken a look at a per/ft cost in quite some time I guess, and what I previously stated was incorrect and must've been numbers rattling around from looking at some really expensive job I did or had finishing figured in as well. I haven't done much bonkers work in a while. It doesn't take much to wildly skew the numbers. Add a 3' hood that's curved and $1800, or something like walnut where the cost and waste are high and things get thrown outta whack pretty quickly.

[Justin Ludwig]

372920372921372924372925372922372923

This kitchen, wine/butler room, and a master bath not pictured were $26,600, installed - not finished. Mitered doors, Blum hardware. I don't remember the lineal footage, but the whole house was over 130LF. The whole house ended up being just over $42k for all cabinets, installed, unfinished. That equals about $310/lineal foot.

I guess it's all relative, right? I wouldn't get any work around here at anyone's price mentioned.

372926 I think I charged this home owner +$500 on their island to do these custom sides. 372927 $1000 for this vent hood. That whole house was beaded inset, distressed, french-mitered doors, and dovetailed drawers. Came out to $450/LF if I remember correctly. The homeowner and I became pretty good friends. He told me the next closet bid to mine was $25k higher - but the company was 6 hours away. That made me sick. No one around here will even attempt the custom work I do - and I think my stuff is just "ok" when I look at the work of some of you.

[Mark Bolton]

We seem to be inbetwen the highs and lows. I agree with the LF pricing being merely a "proover" to cull the tire kickers and home center shoppers. As I read this I cant possibly imagine being paid the numbers Martin claims and then I cant imagine shipping and installing the cabs Justins photos show even unfinished.

We have never, ever, done an unfinished job. I guess its just the market. And now we are 95% commercial with only the occasional kitchen.

If your pricing your work accurately, paying your shop, labor, markup, taxes, depreciation, (etc, etc, etc).. then good for you.

If I were selling at Martins numbers I'd be living on a Yacht in the Caribbean. But then again, my property taxes on my shop are about 300 a year plus equipment and inventory at another 700 and that tax burden directly correlates to what your market will yield.

We chased the residential (wholesale builder/retail) market for a short time and it just didnt look like any fun.

[Jim Dwight]

My wife fell in love with a Kraft Made display at the local Lowe's so that is what we ended up with. The cost was FARRRRRR higher than any $/ft they had displayed. Our uppers go to the ceiling but are combination of combination of 30s and 12s with the upper ones having bubble glass doors. They are pretty decent made but I could have done it for a LOT less. We could have gotten other cabinets for half or less of what we paid but it was not what the boss wanted.

If you make it yourself and only pay for materials, it will obviously be cheapest. Next would be the knock down stuff like Ikea sells - there are brands that use plywood (Ikea does not). Assembled costs more as does all the fancier ideas that women want.

At least I got to install the cabinets and all the appliances and trim. That saved significant money.

[Mark Bolton]

Sadly, if you buiild them yourself, with less than production equipment, and pay yourself and yiour shop a mere $5 an hour, you'll be in for far more than the cost of home center cabs. It may be fun, and rewarding, but even with $5 an hour in labor it'll cost a fortune.

It's just weighing the fun vs the time away from your family and the fact that it will take perhaps 10x as long. Not to mention but picking all the things you'll wish were different or better.

[David Kumm]

When I was redoing my house, I found it difficult to compete and compare with quality kitchen cabinets, particularly the finishing. The easier way to justify my time was with passage doors, vanities, and particularly closet systems. Closet systems get expensive for what amounts to finished MDF and mediocre cabinets. I saved the most doing a big walk in closet. I have the equipment to do most everything but time is limited so when I play, it has to pay- somewhat. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Live just outside Boston and work for a small four man custom cabinet shop. One of the four is a finisher that largely lives in a spray booth. When not in the booth he puts together doors and sands finished work.

From what I understand the range in the area is $800-1500 of for uppers and lowers. Add and subtract for magic corners vrs cheap lazy Susan, finished end panels vrs not yada yada.

Those numbers will blow some minds but I can’t see how my boss could keep the whole thing rolling on a dime less.

[Justin Ludwig]

Live just outside Boston and work for a small four man custom cabinet shop. One of the four is a finisher that largely lives in a spray booth. When not in the booth he puts together doors and sands finished work.

From what I understand the range in the area is $800-1500 of for uppers and lowers. Add and subtract for magic corners vrs cheap lazy Susan, finished end panels vrs not yada yada.

Those numbers will blow some minds but I can’t see how my boss could keep the whole thing rolling on a dime less.

The simple fact is; it's based on economies of scale. I can guarantee my material is cheaper than anything you guys can get - not including locally sourced raw materials or imports. Northerners can get white pine way cheaper than I can, but my oak and soft maple prices are low, and now that I have a new source for plywood my margin is going to increase quite a bit. All that is just talking material, not labor. I can pay a skilled (a loose term here) laborer $13-15hr here and he'll be bragging to his friends. If I remember one of Martin's posts, he pays his guys around $25.

I've bid many jobs and the homeowners ask for an hourly rate. They quickly accept my bid when I tell them $50/hr on site (for just me), $100/hr in the shop. No one here ever hires me by the hour, they think they it's robbery. Case in point: 2014 a homeowner asked for a bid on trimming this house (http://www.ludwigcabinets.com/kalder.html). It wasn't extravagant, but had stacked crown, stacked base, 8-0 doors, beams and some simple arch work and 3 closets. Labor bid was $14000, he declined and wanted to just pay us hourly (he was there everyday after work to monitor progress). I paid one helper $22 and the other $15. We finished in a month and he ended up paying $14700 (my take home was a little over half of that because I worked 12-14hr days). The cabinets were a separate bid. His cabinets came out to over $500/LF because of the walnut pegs and we built a walnut butcher block top for the raised bar that was 117" long, 20" wide with a massive radius.

[Martin Wasner]

If I remember one of Martin's posts, he pays his guys around $25.


Good ones, they start at $15(ish).

I'm trying to get a buddy that I used to work with years ago to come work for me, he wants $33/hr. I'm trying to figure out if I can swing that, or what needs to happen to ensure that I can swing that.

[Mark Bolton]

The simple fact is; it's based on economies of scale. I can guarantee my material is cheaper than anything you guys can get .

I think your post about labor costs is really where the answer is. In any venture Ive been involved in the material is pretty much trivial in the grand scheme of what something costs. Ex wife and I used to have a pottery studio, there was probably $0.10 of clay, and $0.05 in glaze and another few cents in kiln fuel consumption (electric or gas) for an average item that may sell for $25. Its all in the labor.

Same thing with cabs/millwork, and trim. We have locals come in looking for kitchens and they ask "what if I bring my own wood to cut down on the price"? The face wood in an average kitchen, regardless of any common species, is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of the job. Maybe a couple hundred board feet of material at two bucks a foot wholesale.. 400 bucks on a modest kitchen that may cost 6-8K. Total material costs may be in the 2-2.5K range. But if your labor expense is half that of another area your number is going to chop drastically based on the remain 4-5K being labor.

Working in rural areas and not in metropolis is definitely a different world and somewhat hard to say the least but I would never go back to that mania and having a mortgage on your mortgage just to cover your property taxes lol.

[Martin Wasner]

I figure usually about 30-40% is my material and hardware cost of the cabinet total, not including finishing or installation. I don't have a clue what just the material works out to. I should know. Obviously hardware costs can vary wildly when somebody wants a $700 corner organizer in a smaller kitchen, and the kitchen is the whole job. It's a ballpark though. I use almost solely 563 undermount slides, and the inserta soft close hinges. The carcass is 3/4" plywood, (that I'm paying way too much a sheet for), with bases getting a 1/4" Baltic Birch back, and wall and tall cabinets getting a 1/2" Baltic Birch back. Unless they're open, then I usually use a 1/4" mdf cored material in whatever specie is appropriate with stretchers. We use solid Birch for our drawers, and they get a 1/4" Baltic Birch bottom. We also build all of our own doors. Moulding is sub'd out currently, as is finishing.

Mark is spot on, you're paying mostly for labor. Or, you're paying for the equipment that reduces the labor. By the time you get the product built, finished, delivered, and installed, material cost is pretty negligible.

I just bought a five head moulder, I'm not sure if I'm going to start pumping out moulding's or not. I need to get some things straighten out with my dust collection before I consider that a possibility. I need to put a cyclone in front of the baghouse, and automate the chips getting blown into a dumpster or trailer. I bought it because I couldn't find a decent used S4S machine for what I wanted to spend, and for just a bit more I got a good used moulder. It does open some possibilities for selling trim, which where I'm located could be a nice little revenue stream. I've been told by a few guys that sell trim packs along side their cabinets, and the trim end of things is far more profitable than the cabinets. I haven't paid for it, or taken delivery yet, just agreed to buy it yesterday over the phone. I need to wait until after the first of the year to write the check.

Mark, one of the main reasons my new shop ended up where it is, is because of property taxes, and a more lenient code demand for what I could build. This same building in the industrial park where I wish it was, couldn't be built the way it is. I would've had to do tip ups, or block, I would've had to sprinkle, and many other things. It would've cost me more than a million dollars by the time I bought the dirt and met the restrictions of the covenant to build in that park. Then, the property taxes would've been probably close to $50k a year. I got this built for less than a half million, I've got enough dirt to have 150k sq/ft if I wanted, easily. I'm 45 minutes from the area I work in most, which isn't awesome, but I can drive quite a bit for the $40k a year I save in taxes. There's a severe handicap though, there's pretty slim pickings for talent to draw from. People from the suburbs think driving out here is like driving to the edge of the earth.

[mreza Salav]

I'm surprised by how "low" some of you guys charge.
I am not in business of doing these things (even though I have been asked by several if I'd do it for them).
When I did stuff for my own house (cabinets included) I got quotes before doing it myself. The ball park cost I got for the entire house (kitchen + 5 bathrooms + laundry) was $70-100k just cabinets (not counter-tops). I ended up spending around $25k in material which included paying around $9k to buy the 144 doors/drawer fronts (super glad I changed my mind about building them myself with so many other things going). It took me about roughly 3 months of my time though to do the rest and finish/install everything (not my day job). So not bad for saving $45-75k at the end and getting a result I can't complain a single bit about.

One other point I have learned from an experienced guy: doing everything in house does not make economical sense. You might be far ahead if you sub-out some of the work (e.g. making the doors) to a well-equipped factory. The extra time you get might put you a lot ahead. For me, that $9k I paid on buying the doors was worth every single penny. I'm sure it would be close to that price for me to just buy the lumber and hundreds of hours of work and it wouldn't be as flaw-less of product as I got for that $9k I paid.

[Justin Ludwig]

I still sub out raised panel and mitered doors. Not worth my time or shop space. I mark them up 10%. I would mark them up more, but would lose the job if I did.

[Mark Bolton]

doing everything in house does not make economical sense

I must have accidentally deleted my response from my phone,

Jist was that if I am/were able to sub out or had slogs of work on deck I most definitely would but... We dont do kitchens a lot and we are in an area where people who come in for that type of work will most generally ask what we make. They have been to other shops (that buy in nearly everything, even some pre-cut carcass material) and they simply arent going to pay a "custom cabinet maker" to assemble bought in parts (all the parts the customer sees and interacts with). Oddly even if your numbers were competitive with the home centers they still would ask the question and judge you differently. We've had it happen several times.

The topic is hotly debated in the industry, some say that your not a "cabinet maker" if your just assembling purchased parts, some say its all about the bottom line and speed and profit, some mix the two and bring in sub'd material when they are covered up but keep the hours in-house when they need to.

We are/would be in the last column. The last large-ish job we did in-house was about 140 fronts and doors in an entire home of cabs. I tracked the doors and drawer boxes through the entire process and we could easily be competitive on 5/8" solid maple dovetail drawer boxes and closer but still competitive on doors. This was all cope and stick overlay so were not talking mitered/beaded insets, but on drawer boxes, even without an automated dovetailer and a drawer clamp we were very much ahead keeping it in-house.

But most definitely, the economics are there if you are burried with other work and have 10 kitchens on deck, and the customers dont give a hoot who makes the parts, I'd sub.

[Jim Dwight]

I don't agree with the comment you can't even pay yourself $5 per hour to make them yourself and save money. I did not keep track of hours but I built one kitchen and it wasn't that terribly time consuming as I remember it. A lot would depend on how you made it and how much woodworking you have done. As an extreme example, my last house had a site built kitchen made of 1x softwood and birch plywood. It had stock moldings to dress it up with pruchased doors. It was thrown together (almost literally) by the finish carpenter and an apprentice. I hated it because of how it was built. 18 gauge brads, glue, and butt joints. I can and have done everything that guy did but I would not at this point - too crude. But the hours involved for the whole kitchen were less than 100. I don't know what he got but I'm pretty sure it was more than $500. If I could work that crudly I could work that quickly.
Kitchen cabinets are not high end workworking in my book. Especially if you buy the doors. If you can make decent furniture you can make kitchen cabinets. I am also convinced you can save a bunch of money. The only real question is whether you have the time and whether you wife will be OK with you taking the time and doing it. I do not think I could pay myself what I get paid for my full time job but I think I could make what a carpenter makes for building it.

[Mark Bolton]

I do not think I could pay myself what I get paid for my full time job but I think I could make what a carpenter makes for building it.

There in lies the rub. I feel that I am (we in the trade are) deserving having bought and paid for a building and land, quality equipment, and studied my craft, to get paid what you get paid at your full time job. I too have lived a home with cabs that sound like your guy may have built them. Birch ply, birch ply doors, built on site, no backs, epoxy slides or better yet center mount slides with plastic bumpers nailed into the face frame.

If the hours were 100 for a carpenter and a helper to build the cab's, in my world (coming from a lifetime in the General contracting business) that would be in todays dollars perhaps $45 and hour? $28 and hour for the carpenter and $15 for his helper? If I were working on-site, bringing and supplying my own tools, running and designing the job, procuring, ordering, paying for, materials, and working for you, I would never be on-site with a helper for 45 an hour. You cant pay your taxes, insurance, and overhead on yourself, your truck, and your helper, for 45 an hour.

So the 45 an hour puts the 100 hour cobbled kitchen at 4500 in labor, who knows what in materials, ply, hinges, door hardware,.. were closing in on the low end numbers in the thread and we are talking about a site built kitchen with unfinished interiors, likely unfinshed drawer inner and outers, the wife has to put contact paper on all the raw shelves and cabinet bottoms. I know, in our modest shop, we cant knock out a pretty detailed kitchen in 100 hours. Not going to happen.

As you say, there is nothing elusive about building kitchen cabinets. Its not that complicated (kinda ;-) ). But it takes a long time in a shop that runs them daily (not us), and it takes way longer than that in a home/basement/garage shop and even longer if you add up everything from going and picking out the material, to the last sweeping of the floor. As I said, if you love it, and are fine with trading your time for savings its great. If your in a market where cab prices are through the roof (Mreza's post) it may make sense. But a cabinet shop doesnt track numbers and project several weeks lead time to build a set of cabs because they are sitting around taking 3 hour lunches and lolligagging their way through the project. Its because thats the man hours it takes.

I know what my time is worth whether its working on my car, mowing my lawn, or painting the house.

[Justin Ludwig]

Time is everything. Labor time is the reason I sub out raised panel and mitered doors. On top of that, I can never build 100 (let alone 200) doors in 10 days and reach the quality that I get from WalzCraft. Hell, I can't build 1 door in 10 days at the quality they build them. I don't own the machinery. I don't even have a widebelt (mouths agape and wondering why, I know). Flat panel and flat panel with applied molding I'll do all day.

I make up the profit-loss in the finishing of cabinets when I have to sub out doors.

Furthermore, I'm just a 2 man shop. Me and another.

[Warren Lake]

you cant build a door as fast or cheap but you can build a better quality door like people used to do, its what all the old trained guys did their whole lives the ones that are retired now.

[Justin Ludwig]

you cant build a door as fast or cheap but you can build a better quality door like people used to do, its what all the old trained guys did their whole lives the ones that are retired now.
I guarantee I can't build a door as good in quality as them. I know me, my tool and skill set, and I've received their work for 4 years. I can build a flat panel door. I can build a raised panel door. I can't build them as good as a company that's dedicated to it for 25-30 years.

The days you speak of are nostalgic and don't pay the bills - not by any stretch of the imagination (in regards to kitchen and vanity cabinetry). At least not in my neck of the woods.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm a firm believer in vertical integration, though there are things it doesn't pay me to do. I can finish, but I make more money cutting wood, so I sub that out.

We can build doors fairly efficiently, and we can build dovetail drawer boxes fairly efficiently. It all boils down to equipment. I could make things much more efficient if I had the money to spend. I'll get there eventually, but it takes time and you nibble away at the bottlenecks as you go. Sometimes just making one thing faster creates a bottle neck on it's own too.

I'm fairly stupid, and I make doors the wrong size all the time. Not a high percentage, but it happens. If I didn't have the ability to whip up a flat panel door in a few minutes when I botch entering a size I'd be in a world of trouble. I can't think far enough ahead of the lead time to stay in front of the potential problems of mis-ordering a door or drawer box.

I'm pretty proud of our dovetail drawers. We are careful about material selection and doing glue ups so they are pretty darn perfect. I've had a couple of companies stop in selling doors and drawer boxes, they all say they can't build the drawer I do. Doors on the other hand, I always have their order form handy just in case I'm in a bind and don't have the time to build them myself.

Once in a while I get roped into doing a full overlay job, which I despise. I always regret not ordering the fronts. I piss around trying to make all of my doors perfectly square, and while they're pretty close, they aren't as good as ones that are built oversized then squared after assembly on a cnc like the one local company does. You get a big run of full overlay cabinets, and those little tiny errors start stacking up on you and it drives me nuts. The customer can't tell, but I fart around enough getting them there splitting hairs that I don't think it's worth my time.

[jack duren]

I still sub out raised panel and mitered doors. Not worth my time or shop space. I mark them up 10%. I would mark them up more, but would lose the job if I did.

Doors is where I make the most money...

[Justin Ludwig]

I'm fairly stupid, and I make doors the wrong size all the time. Not a high percentage, but it happens. If I didn't have the ability to whip up a flat panel door in a few minutes when I botch entering a size I'd be in a world of trouble. I can't think far enough ahead of the lead time to stay in front of the potential problems of mis-ordering a door or drawer box.


I stopped having those problems in 2012 when I started using Cabinet Vision. If you peruse the sets and different build styles (overlay, inset, etc) changing is simple. I export my door lists to excel and edit them to match WalzCraft's order form. I've messed up twice in 4 years and both times I didn't ordered 1 instead of 2 of something.

If you're building doors wrong sizes, I'd take a look at your screen-to-shop exporting/reporting because if you have the program dialed in to your processes the doors and drawers will always be correct. I can talk for days on that end of the spectrum.


Doors is where I make the most money...

I agree. There's a lot of $$ to be made. I've subbed out $30k in doors this year. 40-60% of that is profit after labor and material - if you can keep up. I couldn't keep up, so I would win less jobs and have less profit. It's a balancing act we all learn for our own individual trades/shops/set-ups. For me, I recoup that money in finishing my own cabinets. I used to NEVER finish cabinets, but down here I only trust 1 finisher and he's booked for months.

[Martin Wasner]

I stopped having those problems in 2012 when I started using Cabinet Vision. If you peruse the sets and different build styles (overlay, inset, etc) changing is simple. I export my door lists to excel and edit them to match WalzCraft's order form. I've messed up twice in 4 years and both times I didn't ordered 1 instead of 2 of something.

If you're building doors wrong sizes, I'd take a look at your screen-to-shop exporting/reporting because if you have the program dialed in to your processes the doors and drawers will always be correct. I can talk for days on that end of the spectrum.


I'm running an ancient version of Cabnetware. All it does is make drawings, I manually figure the doors, drawer fronts, and drawers and punch the sizes into a spreadsheet. I've spent $45,000 on equipment this year and I keep promising myself I'll upgrade software, but it always seems there's something else more important to acquire first. Those days are coming to a head though. If I want to add a CNC, I'll NEED to drop $25k on a fresh version of Cabinetvision. I better have the software sorted before the hardware hits the floor.

[mreza Salav]

Justin I 100% agree with you about Walzcraft. The raised panel mitered doors I got from them had zero sap wood (walnut) and I had to look really really hard to find the different pieces in the raised panel. Unbelievable attention to grain orientation. I couldn't find a single little flaw in all pallet it was delivered.
I have made many raised panel mitered doors and I have yet to see that many doors in a batch job in that quality. BTW, all sanded and finish ready.

[Warren Lake]

its not to do with flaws or even sap wood there are so many details thought wise that can go into a door from material selection to material selection again to layout to construction to finishing. Door makers do volume start with lesser materials, they simply cant put the attention into making the best door. They are very good value for the money and turn around etc. Ill stick to that as its what ive seen in the last 40 years looking at every stick of furniture I come across. I remember one magazine where the cover proudly showed a shop that made some huge number of cabinets per week. I emailed them to tell them all the doors were on upside down. Im microscopic like an ameba compared to them in fact I would not even register on their scale. I dont call it nostalgic just doing my best work at the time and always trying to get better.

[Justin Ludwig]

I would fully agree with you, Warren, were it concerning all the other door companies I've worked with. Every time I unpack a load of doors from WalzCraft, my mouth drops and David and I look at each other and smile. Because everything is perfect. They even allow me to order doors to the 1/32 for my inset applications. If you saw one (let alone 100 in a meticulously packaged pallet), you'd understand.

I too, am always trying my best and to improve. :thumbs up:

[Warren Lake]

thats good that is one of my many things on a door. Beaded inset I do 7/8" door for ease of how I lay it all out. Of course now that they saw 4/4 material so thin it almost puts me into 5/4, really does but not in the old days. Ive made doors up to 1 1/4 though depending on hinges so one aspect I can make any thickness doors door makers here are 13/16 take it or leave it, then ive seen up to 11 rips in a door which is pathetic. Be good for me to see 40 doors at once from them seems they operate at a much better level than the others. Id struggle with that volume as the attention to details get way harder in quantity at once. On one type of work I was doing I could pick the 200 feet i needed from fresh top grade 1,200 un opened bundles. That allowed me to do many things as I was selecting the material not selecting material someone sent me for the job.

When you order your doors for your base cabinets how wide is the top rail, how wide is the bottom rail on those base doors? do they clamp panel material where sometimes one cathedral goes up and one goes down stuff like that. Just curious be nice to stand in front of 40 doors at once.

[jack duren]

you cant build a door as fast or cheap but you can build a better quality door like people used to do, its what all the old trained guys did their whole lives the ones that are retired now.

I'm trying to understand this post. Most the guys who trained me in 1983 are dead or near dead.. Somebody?

[peter gagliardi]

We do absolutely everything in-house, and have for about 25 years.
Every single measurement and calculation for parts is done in my head. Why buy and learn software that almost always has limitations, or problems of a sort.
I have yet to see a door or drawer from a supplier that is as good as we can make it.
We also do the entire kitchen start to install including all trim- undercabinet panels, trim to ceiling, toekick, etc, etc...
All plywood in the box is a minimum of 3/4" - sides, tops, bottoms, and backs.
Mitered integral end panels- matched, ripped and folded mitered corners to the faceframe.
3/8" plywood bottoms on 1/2 blind 5/8" solid hard maple drawers- almost always 1 piece sides.
We do not let anyone install our cabinets or trim.
We are still here.
We eat every day.
We have a very well equipped shop.
How do you define profitable?
And we work for average income people.
I like diverse projects, that are challenging.
Some here will tweak their specialty to gain every penny out of each process- they are businessmen, and smarter than I.
For me, that is equivalent of a "factory job" I simply do not function like that.

I need some creative freedom-I have a thirst to do difficult work that everyone else turns down, or says can only be done on a CNC- which I will never have. In short, I need variety.
That is why I decided to become a woodworker.
I try to do my best work, and the money has followed.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter, glad it's working. Seen a couple of companies buy a succession of computor programs at great cost that never paid off. Keeping everyone busy is the best plan. There are too many guys standing still waiting for a machine to do something. And when an outside "fixer" is needed to get broken stuff moving, everyone in the offices come out to stand and watch.
Like they are going to be able to fix it next time.

[Andrew Joiner]

We do absolutely everything in-house, and have for about 25 years.
Every single measurement and calculation for parts is done in my head. Why buy and learn software that almost always has limitations, or problems of a sort.


Good to hear that Peter. Do you use a rod layout and make a handwritten cutlist?

[peter gagliardi]

No rod for layout, but yes, a handwritten cutlist. And yes, there are the occasional mistakes, but not enough to warrant changing.
I draw almost nothing, but work off known good measurements for the space. It takes on average, about 2-3 hours of my time to generate all the cutlists and notes- plywood, finished end panels, doors, drawer fronts, drawers, shelves, moldings, faceframes, etc.
I need to do it this way, to "get my head into the job"
I have digital cutting tools, so tape measures are mostly there to confirm things.
Holding measurements, and accuracy has become easy, across however many guys are working the job.
My door and drawer front parts that are multi piece are cut to assemble 1/8" oversize at glueup.
I then use the digital setups on the Martin slider to cut exact.
This works really well, even with inset. Hardly have to use the edgesander to fit the doors and drawerfronts into the faceframes.
Of course, we certainly do have some setups and systems that are a little archaic, but we achieve a nice end product without a lot of fussing

[Mark Bolton]

What happens when you are down with the flu for ten days or if something were to take you away from the business for a period? Does the business keep rolling for your staff (if any)?

[peter gagliardi]

If I am out for 10 days, I don't have the flu..... I'm dead!
It is usually myself and sometimes one other guy in the shop. 2-3 guys in the field, but we have had all in the shop a couple times.
They know what to do if I am gone, and if they don't, they know they have to put their "big boy pants" on and figure it out.
I don't remember the last time I was out unscheduled. Many years.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

We do absolutely everything in-house, and have for about 25 years.
Every single measurement and calculation for parts is done in my head. Why buy and learn software that almost always has limitations, or problems of a sort.
I have yet to see a door or drawer from a supplier that is as good as we can make it.
We also do the entire kitchen start to install including all trim- undercabinet panels, trim to ceiling, toekick, etc, etc...
All plywood in the box is a minimum of 3/4" - sides, tops, bottoms, and backs.
Mitered integral end panels- matched, ripped and folded mitered corners to the faceframe.
3/8" plywood bottoms on 1/2 blind 5/8" solid hard maple drawers- almost always 1 piece sides.
We do not let anyone install our cabinets or trim.
We are still here.
We eat every day.
We have a very well equipped shop.
How do you define profitable?
And we work for average income people.
I like diverse projects, that are challenging.
Some here will tweak their specialty to gain every penny out of each process- they are businessmen, and smarter than I.
For me, that is equivalent of a "factory job" I simply do not function like that.

I need some creative freedom-I have a thirst to do difficult work that everyone else turns down, or says can only be done on a CNC- which I will never have. In short, I need variety.
That is why I decided to become a woodworker.
I try to do my best work, and the money has followed.

Wow, Peter... that sums up exactly how my father ran his company when he started in the 70’s and how I still run the family business now. We pride ourselves doing everything in house, and our customers do care I think. It’s a very rare and somewhat “novel” business model these days. I don’t know how many times a salesman has called me foolish because we build our own doors, run our own mouldings etc. But its the way WE do business, and will continue to as well. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

What happens when you are down with the flu for ten days or if something were to take you away from the business for a period? Does the business keep rolling for your staff (if any)?

Personally, In the 23 years Ive been full time working, I have been off sick less than a week - and I once went 9 years straight without a holiday. You work unless you absolutely cannot, then you make sure your guys step up, lol. Having excellent employees who care about the business as much as you do, certainly helps.

[Joe Calhoon]

When I had a 4 man crew we would take on the millwork, doors, cabinetry and finishing for custom homes. Usually 3 or 4 houses per year and at times some commercial work. The few times I outsourced anything I was disappointed. We always tried to keep the quality high - dovetail drawers, ply interiors, 1” thick doors, top hardware, 1/4” solid wood banding on Euro cabs and full inset when doing faceframes and grain matching everything. Customers notice this after awhile and word gets around. A customer that we did cabinets for 15 years ago called me a while back and wants interior doors to match now. She was raving about the attention to detail we put into her project and excited to have us doing her doors.
this was just simple contemporary cabinetry we did for her and not a super high dollar project. It’s pretty hard to match grain when you outsource doors.
373376 373377

We did outsource installation and there were problems with that. Mostly schedules. I use Cabnetware software and would say that worked out well. It saved a lot of mistakes and allowed me more time in the shop. I still use that software to cut-list house doors. Like Peter and Andrew I enjoy the work and thankful to have been able to make a living at it.
Now, working mostly by myself with a little part time help I usually do the minimum drawing for the customer, lay out projects on rods and make hand written cutlists that only I understand and would be a disaster to hand to employees.

[Justin Ludwig]

Andrew and Peter, I wish our local economy could support what you do. I'd like to watch you guys work for a week. Hell, I'd like to watch any of you work for a week. I started my cabinet business with a table saw, planer and chop saw. I've never worked in a "cabinet shop". I started building cabinets after helping build 2 sets of cabinets with a home contractor. After that, it was in my head. It's been a long learning process, including the business side of things.

As for hand drawing versus program? Everyone I come across wants rendered pictures. Or they make change after change. I can't imagine redrawing by hand. When I was drawing by hand, I made formulas in excel so my parts would be right for drawers and doors - screw a bunch math in my head, I'd go insane from the tedium. I didn't do it by hand long enough for it to come from memory. The computer also allowed me to take my cabinets to another level without fear of mistake. A kitchen like the one Joe posted above I could draw and have cutlists in the shop in 15 minutes. That's cutlists for and molding lists, door lists, everything. I have a valid argument because I've done it both ways, but if what you're doing works for you, then by all means carry on. I'm not here to change anyone's process - I'm here to learn.

[Justin Ludwig]

When you order your doors for your base cabinets how wide is the top rail, how wide is the bottom rail on those base doors? do they clamp panel material where sometimes one cathedral goes up and one goes down stuff like that. Just curious be nice to stand in front of 40 doors at once. They build the doors however I want. I just did a quick count in the catalog of raised panel doors. There are 126 different styles to choose from. I've ordered custom also. I've designed passage way doors keeping to the golden ratio in the dividing up the panel with stiles and rails - they built it no problem.

I would build my own if I had the equipment to even remotely compete with their product.

[Mark Bolton]

I'm completely aware of the 20+ (probably more like 30) years of self employment and never being off, no holidays, no sick time unless your so sick you can't move, etc. Its the burden of self employment. Its hard on relationships, hard on family.

For me personally I quit wearing it as a badge of honor a long time ago. Like I said in another post, it would seem as hard as we work and the quality provided, I would much rather move my business to a standard model if at all possible. Perhaps one day off a weekend, not chewing your nails down to the root (of better yet spending a few hours in the shop) on holidays, never going on a week or two's vacation.

I was literally just having this conversation with SO's dad yesterday He was a workaholic his entire career. Was one of the lucky people who loved his job (maybe more than his family) and now in his seventies missing so much time with his family, and the subsurface stress when he was forced to take time, is one of his greatest regrets regardless of how well he provided.

Again, I fall more in the Justin camp. Our customers want 3D renders, and changes are endless. I use to really enjoy drafting an entire home and its contents on the table with my ancient K&E drafting machine. Not happenin' now.

My question about time off was more related to the rest of the shop. I know another local shop that operates in this manner. All math is in one guys (the owner who has built so many boxes its like tieing his shoes) head, when he has help they will never be able to operate at his speed even though they know HOW because he does all the math for every job because its faster and he trusts it.

Now that he's older and would like to sell or hand off the business to someone else, its basically worth only the value of the equipment at auction because there is no business without his brain there to generate the lists.

As said. Carry on with whatever works for you in your shop. I'm in hopes to achieve a middle of the road balance. Processes and procedures that allow overlap of ability and responsibility right through to the design and cutlist generation. A reasonable work week. And i can't imagine the V word.

[peter gagliardi]

Mark, your post illustrates vividly the pitfalls of self employment.
At 49 years old, and having 4 kids, the oldest being 15 this year, I find myself at a crossroads.
I love what I do. I get paid enough- though I seem to always try chasing more.
Problem is, my oldest is 3 years from graduating high school, and I really do not have a ton of memories or photos of those years- I have worked 7 days steadily through with an occasional vacation to appease and stay married.

Something happened 15 years ago when I became a father, like a switch in my brain went on, and I turned into some type of robot. Probably happens to every parent, I don't know, but suddenly, no amount of money on earth, in the business, or stashed away seemed sufficient to relax and enjoy my time with them.

It became a job, a very serious job. My wife and I decided we wanted the old fashioned traditional family, where Dad worked, and Mom worked even harder at home raising 4 great kids. We decided we would live on whatever I, or my business could provide. Anybody in this trade, knows what that looks like.
We aren't poor, but we are pretty solidly lower middle class I suppose. My wife and kids do not want for much, but.....
I have a hard time saying no to work, and feeling like I am letting a customer down, but I have started slowly to realize that none of them have, or probably would sacrifice family time for me and mine.
So, today, I am home, to enjoy some time.
I hope other's do the same.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Mark, your post illustrates vividly the pitfalls of self employment.
At 49 years old, and having 4 kids, the oldest being 15 this year, I find myself at a crossroads.
I love what I do. I get paid enough- though I seem to always try chasing more.
Problem is, my oldest is 3 years from graduating high school, and I really do not have a ton of memories or photos of those years- I have worked 7 days steadily through with an occasional vacation to appease and stay married.

Something happened 15 years ago when I became a father, like a switch in my brain went on, and I turned into some type of robot. Probably happens to every parent, I don't know, but suddenly, no amount of money on earth, in the business, or stashed away seemed sufficient to relax and enjoy my time with them.

It became a job, a very serious job. My wife and I decided we wanted the old fashioned traditional family, where Dad worked, and Mom worked even harder at home raising 4 great kids. We decided we would live on whatever I, or my business could provide. Anybody in this trade, knows what that looks like.
We aren't poor, but we are pretty solidly lower middle class I suppose. My wife and kids do not want for much, but.....
I have a hard time saying no to work, and feeling like I am letting a customer down, but I have started slowly to realize that none of them have, or probably would sacrifice family time for me and mine.
So, today, I am home, to enjoy some time.
I hope other's do the same.

I have two kids, young-ish, at age 3 and 6. After we started our family, I was not able to work weekends and evenings as I once did. My wife (who has a career) works many weekends and also shift work during the week. I became a full time dad, and yes my business has suffered. I figure in a few more years IO can return to working when I would like to. Yes, I love what I do, and like my father before me (who I thought was nuts growing up, as he worked 12 to 14 hours every day) I am the most relaxed and at peace in the shop. If I had more time, I’d choose to go to work more, not because it is necessary but because I want to.

Anyhow, every one who is self employed is doing this for different reasons. I always felt that if I can keep things going, doing things my way (and enjoying each and every day) pay everyone and put something in my pocket, I will carry on. Making money isn’t the reason I am in business, it is because I love woodworking and the whole enterprise of it. But of course making money is necessary to have the shop, etc.

Some of the shops near me that just make melamine boxes, and source out everything else.. everything... They are financially way further ahead than I will be, but that would be a death sentence for me. I want to be a woodworker, not a manager. I know to many that will sound crazy. But, it is what it is.

My dad is 87 and still works about 6 hours a day in the shop he built (which I sold to another guy, they have 3 or 4 employees and him). Not because he has to, but he loves it. We were never rich, but we lived comfortably and that was enough. Being truly happy is worth a lot of $$ in my opinion.

[Martin Wasner]

I hope other's do the same.


And I'm in the office working on drawings and estimates on a sunday...

Then I'm going to finish the cleaning that wasn't accomplished on Friday because time management and stepping up when the dude in charge is up to his ass in a problem is sooo difficult for the employees.


No kids here, a wife, a dog, a cat, and a tank full of fish. Just to parrot other's experiences, I work a lot. I'm currently over 3000 hours for the year, and I'll likely be around 3300 by the time the next 21 days pass. You have to, that's the nature of small business. Business's are either growing, or dying. On a small scale where you're pulled 20 different directions, it's hard on marriages, those who don't have the drive to build a business themselves don't understand the drive, the need, and addiction for making it successful. I've been married just five years. My wife hasn't seen the lean times, she hasn't seen behind with no real work on the horizon and nothing in the account wondering how I'm going to make pay the rent. The slowest she's seen things is "occupied", where we've got 40hrs worth of work for a few weeks, but my time gets burned up fixing broken things because we just came off six months of hammering through projects. Or finally getting around to something that has been bothering me in the shop. Plus getting ahead of the next job by restocking some of the parts we keep on hand for the crunch times. It's a never ending battle.

For a two man shop, we crank out a lot I feel, but it's getting to be too much for me to handle. I have too many hats to wear.
Supply officer, drafting, bidding, accounting, billing, equipment acquisition, maintenance, shop management, then I still have stuff to build.
My number of customers is slowly growing, they themselves are growing, and things are getting out of hand. I need to add more people, but to be honest, I'm scared I won't be able to keep them busy, even though I'm working at least sixty hour weeks. I could easily add one more person, but I need someone talented that I can hand something off to and if there's any questions it's because it's my fault the print wasn't clear enough.

I talk to a fair amount of local shop owners. The smaller guys, we tend to rely on one another when you're short a few hinges, or slides, or "hey, can I buy a sheet of something?". Some of the medium sized shops, where they've got 8-10 guys, all say the same thing. They never made more money than when there was just three or four people. I often wonder why that is? Is it because they added the bodies, but not the equipment and space? Is it from poor floor management? I need an employee to be responsible for at least $100k worth of work for them to be a worthwhile investment. Some are better than others for sure. Somewhere in there I need to turn this into a job with people I can trust to handle things and I can take off some of those hats. Hopefully take some time off as well so I can stay married. I'm eighteen years into doing this, thirteen on my own, and I don't know how many years I can maintain the pace I am.

Money isn't my sole drive for doing this. At least not up front. Long term I'm trying to build something I can retire from. Generally small business's aren't sold outright. Sometimes, but not usually. I've spent $245,588.50 on equipment with a replacement cost of $464,417.27 according to my spreadsheet. That's going to just get auctioned off, and if it were happen today I'd be lucky to get what I put into it even though I take very good care of my equipment. I'm patient and hunt for a lot of deals, but who knows what it'll actually sell for. I've dumped everything I could back into the business from day one. I don't live fancy, don't drive expensive vehicles, so each year the shop's income goes up, but my income stays pretty static. If my equipment value stays the same, $250k isn't going to do a lot of good for retirement. Better than nothing, but that doesn't buy much for years not working. That's leaves me with branding, and real estate. I'm not going to be the next Coke Marlboro, or Amazon, so nobody is going to be acquiring the brand. That has pretty much no value. That leaves real estate. I own the building personally and the company leases the space from me. The new building is far from paid for, but when it is, I want to use the rent from that to put up another similar sized building. Once that is occupied and stable, use the rent from that to either keep itself afloat and contribute to adding more space onto the current building. Hopefully when the time comes for me to pull the plug I can function off of the rent of both buildings, selling one and keeping the other, or just selling everything outright. I've got room to double the size of this building easily, do three more buildings about this size, and I own three residential lots I would like to build some spec houses on. I may sell off one or two of the commercial lots too. I don't know. If I had 40,000 sq/ft of rental space, that would be a decent income on it's own at a current value of ~$6/ft

Honestly, I've enjoyed building this company far more than anything this company has built. I still enjoy building stuff, but the challenge is long gone. The challenge is now how can I make this go easier, faster, and better. The business and management facets are so fulfilling for me. Woodworking is easy, doing it efficiently and effectively is the trick. Being what we have to draw from generally for employee candidates, equipment and moving towards automation is the only viable way to keep moving the ball forward and staying competitive.

[Mark Bolton]

And I'm in the office working on drawings and estimates on a sunday...

Well, your not alone. Guess where I am?

The constant mantra I have always heard through the years is that when your a one man show, you make nothing, two-three employees your staff makes more than you, four.. you start to make decent money. We were in the field at the time and were up to 5.5-6 and I would say a lot more work got done, but quality inevitably goes down (yet is still far above production outfits), and all you (at least I) wind up doing is being a fire extinguisher. You just go from station to station keeping people on track and answering problems.

Thats never been my want. I have always wanted to be in the work. Peter said he's 49, I am 50 this year, thank goodness never had kids (always working and never felt time was right). The business, and residual stress, ate the marriage nearly 10 years ago. Its a rough slog but at this point there arent many other options.

I remember watching a show that covered a huge shop in the north east, cant remember the details, where the shop owner refused to be in the office. Had a huge facility, and he had his own zone and couple guys and they worked right on the floor with the rest of the staff. Getting to that point would be nice. Someone else answering the phones, doing accounts payable and receivable, having some input in it all but being out on the floor.

I think my point is just that because its always been a 100 hour a week job doesnt necessarily mean thats the only option. But it requires us to test our comfort zones and routines. Just my 0.02. I know I cant keep it up forever. 20 years of field work, and 10 in the shop, my body is telling me to get smart.

[Patrick Walsh]

I work in a small four man shop. A boss that does it all and waaaay to much of it, a full time builder, a full time painter that will glue up doors and sand finished boxes when we don’t have paint work for him, and me whom goes back and forth between building and installing. I hate installation work but I’m good at it. Plus if someone else botched the instal of my work I’d be peeved.

We build everything in house except drawer boxes. We instal all our own work. We do all our layout based off RO measurements we took ourself and renderer drawings off those and or drawings provided by a architect or designer. Mostly a combo of the two.

I love what I do and what I do because I love it not for the money. If I did something all day everyday just for money I’d loose my mind. I average 60hr weeks with the occasional lull of a couple back to back 40hr weeks because at my hourly rate I have to do so to bring home the income I desire. I am willing to work more hours to do what I love then less hours doing something a dread. Often I work six months straight of 6-70hr weeks. You had better love what you do or your not gonna make it.

If we outsourced everything or had computer this and computer that I would quickly find myself waking up in the morning not wanting to go to work. Let’s hope the boss keeps doing things the way he is and so I can continue doing things this way.

It’s nice to hear others are also doing this because they love it or at least also enjoy it and not just to make a buck. Often I think I’m pretty alone money not being my sole motivator.

[Mark Bolton]

had computer this and computer that I would quickly find myself waking up in the morning not wanting to go to work

I dont mean to beat Justin's drum here but honestly, from someone who has come from mechanical pencil and drafting machine all the way to full computer 3D rendering, design, and output to the shop, I think your absolutely insane. (said nicely). You honestly just have to try it. A completely off the wall or odd ball job that you dont normally run through your shop, is a breeze. There is no "design on the fly" or figuring things out on the shop floor. (well maybe still a tiny bit for a single odd cab that is too time consuming to built from scratch in the computer). You walk up to the saw with a cut list 400 items long and just take the math out of the game. You just cut, and it comes out perfect. The only time it doesnt is when you go into autopilot and operator error cuts a part wrong. Marks 5/16 instead of 5/8 or marks the wrong side of 50" on the tape.

It doesnt take the personality or passion out of the process, it just eliminates the operator error that runs right up to the guy figuring the math in his head who misses a decimal place or makes a simple addition or subtraction error. There is nothing worse than running all your door material and then moving machinery to a different operation and having to go back and make a single door or two. Its a massive gouge on the margin.

If I honestly worked for me.. and I had a family, and jumped off on a car or truck payment, and was thinking of the future. I would be nervous. One heart attack, one, hernia, one incident in the shop, and its all shut down. It doesnt seem like a very smart way to run hence my aggressive move in a different direction (yet the same path).

When we just arbitrarily ignore advances in the industry out of routine it becomes less routine and more ritual. And ritual can be directly tied to insanity. lol

[Patrick Walsh]

Sounds both good and bad to me.

There are times when you just don’t want to think about some mundane task that is esentilly redundant and the same thing you did the day before and the day before and the day before that so in and son.

On the other hand it’s all that thinking “figuring” that keeps me interested in my job. Without the figuring I would just get bored.

It will say the tool loving nerd in me does like the idea of a computer generated drawing cultist and all then having every machine in the shop fully automated. I do like perfection, I really really like perfection. I just want/need to be responsible for that perfection as apposed to some algorithm or robot saw.

FYI I’d give a body part for a fully automated t75 slider and t27 shaper. Not sure why considering the above. Maybe I would enjoy the antiquated manual versions of the above much more. Doubt it lol..

Each to his own. The good news for me is I just do what I’m told and am very happy doing exactly that. This is how my boss has done it and chances are will continue to do it. In the Ned it’s not up to me.

I dont mean to beat Justin's drum here but honestly, from someone who has come from mechanical pencil and drafting machine all the way to full computer 3D rendering, design, and output to the shop, I think your absolutely insane. (said nicely). You honestly just have to try it. A completely off the wall or odd ball job that you dont normally run through your shop, is a breeze. There is no "design on the fly" or figuring things out on the shop floor. (well maybe still a tiny bit for a single odd cab that is too time consuming to built from scratch in the computer). You walk up to the saw with a cut list 400 items long and just take the math out of the game. You just cut, and it comes out perfect. The only time it doesnt is when you go into autopilot and operator error cuts a part wrong. Marks 5/16 instead of 5/8 or marks the wrong side of 50" on the tape.

It doesnt take the personality or passion out of the process, it just eliminates the operator error that runs right up to the guy figuring the math in his head who misses a decimal place or makes a simple addition or subtraction error. There is nothing worse than running all your door material and then moving machinery to a different operation and having to go back and make a single door or two. Its a massive gouge on the margin.

If I honestly worked for me.. and I had a family, and jumped off on a car or truck payment, and was thinking of the future. I would be nervous. One heart attack, one, hernia, one incident in the shop, and its all shut down. It doesnt seem like a very smart way to run hence my aggressive move in a different direction (yet the same path).

When we just arbitrarily ignore advances in the industry out of routine it becomes less routine and more ritual. And ritual can be directly tied to insanity. lol

[Mark Bolton]

you just don’t want to think about some mundane task that is esentilly redundant and the same thing you did the day before and the day before and the day before that so in and son.

Unfortunately that IS the construction world. You build a home with 55 3/0-8/0 site finished interior doors and your going to be sanding, and finishing for months. Casing? Base? Crown? You walk into a large room that has 3 piece crown, and 4 piece base, and its an exercise in not blowing your head off. Mainly because when you walk out of that room... there are 20 more right behind it.

Its no different in the shop. A job with sub 200 cabinet doors. You will be seeing sticking in your sleep for years. The issue is making it fast, and still fun. There is no robot. Even the most arbitrary task requires skill. Heck.. one of my long time schpiels has been that it takes skill to run a damn shovel. You sit on an excavator looking down on a really amazing ground man, and wow... shovel skills are impressive.

Its all what you make of it has been what keeps me sane.

I cant count the times we would off load the paint truck with 200 gallons of prime and top coat. You knew you were going to go through every room 3 full times. All natural finish trim installed raw, stained in place, lacquer in place, and the next step was sand all plaster to 220, caulk all trim/plaster joints, prime, sand 220, base coat, sand 220, and fly on flawless second top coat. You were ready to quit before you started.

Shop work is no different to me. Standing there looking at a pile of stock that is all going to get chopped into base and case and you know every inch of it is going to have to be sanded, stained, base coat of clear, de-nib, finish coat, shrink wrapped, its like wheres my .44 mag lol.

[Martin Wasner]

Is the same crap over and over again. It's just wood, glue and nails. Different shapes, same crap.

[Andrew Joiner]

Again, I fall more in the Justin camp. Our customers want 3D renders, and changes are endless. I use to really enjoy drafting an entire home and its contents on the table with my ancient K&E drafting machine. Not happenin' now.




Mark, what software do you use to design and generate cut lists?

What a great discussion here from you pros. I made a living woodworking for most of my life. I remember the passion for the hard work and the craft. The long hours and stress being an acceptable downside. It's very exciting and satisfying. I miss it.

I was frugal, single with no kids and LUCKY so I was able to retire young. All my extra time and money went into buying and improving rental property. The first property was in 1976. I was lucky there was no internet then. Interest rates were very high and I'm pretty sure any research I could have done online would've scared me away from income property. My best friend had a triplex and said" only buy a building with positive cash flow". I found out he was right. It's harder to do that now at least where I live.

Owning and managing property was perfect for me back then. When I was slow in the shop I'd build a kitchen or something for one of my rentals. One kitchen I made was from offcuts from a store fixture job I'd done.:) I had the skill, and I got to keep my work and raise the rent. After a while that kitchen was paid for by increased rents and I still owned the kitchen! A pretty simple way for a hard working young guy to stay busy.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, what software do you use to design and generate cut lists?

I was an early adopter of sketchup when it first came out. It became familiar to me and I used it with several plugins to make due without spending $8K on some of the other options mentioned already in the thread. We have since adopted a plugin from Cabinetsense Software, that does everything we need including full CNC integration. Oddly we recently just started implementing a new fastener and with a single email I had a call from the owner of the company implementing the fastener directly into our workflow. I can draw and design on the fly and have several libraries of standard construction configurations from butt, to qualified dado, to RTA, and so on. We dont have horizontal boring or case clamp so dowels are out. Qualified dado (blinds) and RTA are by far our most common.

Its not to say there is not a learning curve. But once you get the libraries built (especially with CNC) its a dream. Drawing long hand is in the dust for me now.

I envy the posts from guys who talk about having employees that are invested as if it were their own business. Have good people but unfortunately that level of engagement is not our experience. You have to be able to output lists. Fast. And at this point,... I would need the fast lists even if I were the one breaking down parts. It just makes that much sense.

It costs money, but SUpro is cheap, the maintenance is cheap, and our plugin expense is around 100 a month. Super cheap compared to the alternative.

I deal with a LOT of architects and designers that need concept drawings and projection estimates on a regular basis. I can provide them with a quick 3D render in a mater of minutes. A rough number.. and Im out.

[Steve Jenkins]

I’ve been self employed for 35 years and can really relate to a lot that has been said. two things come to mind since I try to maintain my sense of humor. When I’m told how great it must be since I can set my own hours my reply is “sure is just pick whichever 80 you want to work each week. The other is how much the word entrepreneur sounds like “ I tripped in Manure”

[Jim Becker]

I’ve been self employed for 35 years and can really relate to a lot that has been said. two things come to mind since I try to maintain my sense of humor. When I’m told how great it must be since I can set my own hours my reply is “sure is just pick whichever 80 you want to work each week. The other is how much the word entrepreneur sounds like “ I tripped in Manure”
Spot-on on both accounts!

[Bill Space]

This thread has been very enlightening and I like the it way has evolved. :)

Thanks again to everyone!

Bill

[Larry Edgerton]

373376 373377

We did outsource installation and there were problems with that. Mostly schedules. I use Cabnetware software and would say that worked out well. It saved a lot of mistakes and allowed me more time in the shop. I still use that software to cut-list house doors. Like Peter and Andrew I enjoy the work and thankful to have been able to make a living at it.
Now, working mostly by myself with a little part time help I usually do the minimum drawing for the customer, lay out projects on rods and make hand written cutlists that only I understand and would be a disaster to hand to employees.

This is pretty much where I am at these days, work alone for the most part. Life is simpler. I don't like other people installing my stuff either, seems they always screw something up.

Just out of curiosity as I never figure by the foot I looked at what the job I am just finishing cost, just a hair over $900/ft. Kind of surprised me actually.

Very interesting discussion gentleman, will finish later, back to the shop. Unfortunately I am also the janitor, and its time....

[John Kee]

Steve and Martin, it takes along time for the pups to realize that whether you are self employed or not, it's all just same. The grass typically isn't green on the other side and still has to be mowed. Trying to keep motivated is the hardest job. LOL

[Mark Bolton]

Owning and managing property was perfect for me back then.

You sound like a much smarter man than I. I unfortunately invested all my efforts into the business. I wish I had invested in the business of property/rental. Coulda, shoulda, woulda,..

[Martin Wasner]

Steve and Martin, it takes along time for the pups to realize that whether you are self employed or not, it's all just same. The grass typically isn't green on the other side and still has to be mowed. Trying to keep motivated is the hardest job. LOL

I keep telling the kid working for me now, you get paid to do it once and in a timely fashion, so when you screw up wasting material and time, I don't pay for it. YOU do. When you try and prove you're incompetent, I'm not going to be handing out the raises and bonus'. I'm going to be riding your rear.

I don't want to talk to anybody during the day unless I have to. Do your job, I'll do mine.

How do you guys justify installing? The pay is horrible and at this point I'd still have an empty shop costing roughly $230 a day but not producing anything. Then there's the time. If I had enough install work to justify two guys installing full time, that's a different story, but I'm a ways away from that.

Subbing it out is a pain too, but I've got a couple of good guys and so long as it isn't short notice, scheduling isn't much of a problem.

[Andrew Joiner]

You sound like a much smarter man than I. I unfortunately invested all my efforts into the business. I wish I had invested in the business of property/rental. Coulda, shoulda, woulda,..
Wish I could claim smart, but mostly lucky. I just wanted to pay less income tax. I got great tax breaks back then.

[Larry Edgerton]

How do you guys justify installing?



Most of the stuff I do these days is off the wall, and around here at least finding installers that can follow instructions as to how and what order things are supposed to be assembled is a problem. I end up with a lot of hours in these projects, and it is not worth the stress of counting on someone else.

One thing I am extremely jealous of is that you have capable finishers around that can take that off the table. I would love that, especially as I no longer have a booth. But no dice. Hate finish.

It has been interesting watching you and your business grow over the years. You have done well my friend!

Larry

[peter gagliardi]

For me, it is part of the job. I simply cannot, and will not trust somebody that only has experience putting in lumberyard cabinets.
When the job is done, and somebody asks, they aren't going to name your installer, what they see, and how it fits, is squarely on your name.
I price with install only- one stop shopping, nothing is left out. If that isn't what they want, they can call anybody around me.
I also supervise and direct the electrician and plumber on what they are allowed to do to my cabinets.
There is no such thing as an outlet cut into the middle of a panel...... anymore!
That happened once, about 25 years ago,and I realized that some people really are not very bright.
I get paid at least my hourly rate to install, but with custom cabinets it rarely takes more than 2 days to complete, as I have usually the entire bank of cabinetry built as one, so an L shaped kitchen is only 5-6 pieces total.

If people want a custom kitchen, at least some part of it needs to be custom.

Someone told me long ago, that if I wanted to survive, I had to "divorce myself from the emotion of pricing" The numbers are the numbers.

If people ask me how my prices compare, I tell them simply, I do not know of a COMPARABLY built kitchen FOR LESS MONEY.

There are a LOT of cabinetmakers within an hour to an hour and a half of me. Some of them do pretty nice work. But none of them to my knowledge do it for what I charge. They could, but they are better businessmen than I am.

[Larry Edgerton]

For me, it is part of the job. I simply cannot, and will not trust somebody that only has experience putting in lumberyard cabinets.
When the job is done, and somebody asks, they aren't going to name your installer, what they see, and how it fits, is squarely on your name.
I price with install only- one stop shopping, nothing is left out. If that isn't what they want, they can call anybody around me.
I also supervise and direct the electrician and plumber on what they are allowed to do to my cabinets.
There is no such thing as an outlet cut into the middle of a panel...... anymore!
That happened once, about 25 years ago,and I realized that some people really are not very bright.
I get paid at least my hourly rate to install, but with custom cabinets it rarely takes more than 2 days to complete, as I have usually the entire bank of cabinetry built as one, so an L shaped kitchen is only 5-6 pieces total.

If people want a custom kitchen, at least some part of it needs to be custom.

Someone told me long ago, that if I wanted to survive, I had to "divorce myself from the emotion of pricing" The numbers are the numbers.

If people ask me how my prices compare, I tell them simply, I do not know of a COMPARABLY built kitchen FOR LESS MONEY.

There are a LOT of cabinetmakers within an hour to an hour and a half of me. Some of them do pretty nice work. But none of them to my knowledge do it for what I charge. They could, but they are better businessmen than I am.


Pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject

[Martin Wasner]

Most of the stuff I do these days is off the wall, and around here at least finding installers that can follow instructions as to how and what order things are supposed to be assembled is a problem. I end up with a lot of hours in these projects, and it is not worth the stress of counting on someone else.

One thing I am extremely jealous of is that you have capable finishers around that can take that off the table. I would love that, especially as I no longer have a booth. But no dice. Hate finish.




I am fortunate that I have been introduced to the people I have been. Both installers and finishers. The installers are used to my product, so they know what's going on. The two different guys that do my finishing may or may not be blowing smoke up my tailpipe, but they both say they like dealing with my cabinets the most. I hate finishing, and I haven't done it in so long it'd be a complete disaster if I started doing it myself. They are really good, both at initial finishing, and following through with touch ups and repairs for the inevitable ding on site.

I am trying to sort out adding onto my building already so one of my finishers would be leasing space from me. He'd be separate, but RIGHT there. It'd make my life so much better not having to load to go there, unloading there, loading there, unloading here, staging, and then loading again to go to the job. Not a big deal with a couple of cabinets, but when the enclosed trailer is stressing your Tetris skills and is loaded nose to tail, wall to wall, and floor to ceiling. It's a giant PIA. Where I'd add on for him isn't ideal, but flopping a cabinet onto a cart and rolling it 80' to the other end of the building is way cooler than popping the door when it's -30ºF outside. Plus things always get dinged in transport, without fail.

My relationship to one of my finisher's actually got me my best account. One of my installers, (who wasn't at the time we used to work together at a shop), got me another really good account.




It has been interesting watching you and your business grow over the years. You have done well my friend!

Larry

Stop it Larry, you're making me blush. And thank you.

[Larry Edgerton]

I just got approval on a project last night you would like.

Its a cabinet job, but I have to build the house as well, sort of. The house was designed by an architect for a steel fabrication company to utilize steel and set on a 12'x12' pod. It is was absolutely the ugliest thing you ever saw with the stupidest interior layout I have ever run across. It looked like a large version of one of those temp trailers you see on a sleazy car lot.

The owner has fabricated steel assemblies for me on various projects and called me in to see what I could make of it. So I thought about it for a while and did some drawings. It involved a lot of curves which are hard to visualize so I made a model yesterday and met with the owner. He had an idea that he wanted to make a statement about his company, a fairly large one that makes ships for the Department of the Interior and a lot of industrial scrubbers that get shipped all over the world. But it got all screwed up and he had given up on it. The house is sitting inside a building.

So... I scrapped everything besides the steel structure basically and turned it into some thing out of the ordinary. Curves inside and out, curved roofs all around, and the coolest thing, it is now going to be a tree fort. A 60' long tree fort with a catwalk out from the bluff it will be set on with a crane. So when you walk out of the house on to the deck/catwalk that goes all the way around the house you will be up in the trees, front side forty feet off of the ground. Curved cabinets of course, might as well make it a challange.

I will post a pic of the model later today.

[Bradley Gray]

Congrats, Larry - Look forward to pics

[Jim Becker]

Larry, that sounds like an interesting project. Yesterday, I read an article about a company in India that historically has built more traditional structures for apartments to support the huge demand for housing for folks (many of them singles) who are entering the professional/technical workforce. They recently started to utilize "double wide" short shipping containers as the base for creating ~200 sq ft residences and substantially reduced the build time over traditional structures. If I can find that article again, I'll post a link. The photos of the interior are pretty interesting to see...you'd never know it was a "container". One thing that was even more interesting was how the space could function as living space as well as business/startup space with the bed flipping up and becoming a white board and certain table surfaces transforming into workstations/desks.

[Julie Moriarty]

Sadly, if you build them yourself, with less than production equipment, and pay yourself and your shop a mere $5 an hour, you'll be in for far more than the cost of home center cabs. It may be fun, and rewarding, but even with $5 an hour in labor it'll cost a fortune.

It's just weighing the fun vs the time away from your family and the fact that it will take perhaps 10x as long. Not to mention but picking all the things you'll wish were different or better.
That depends... I have priced the box store cabinets and compared them to the cost of building cabinets myself. DIY for me is far cheaper and the quality of the materials is better. One time I priced my labor and IIRC it was over $25/hr. against the box store price, which had MDF in it.

Right now I'm building a highly customized kitchen island. The "design team" :rolleyes: can't make up their mind so it's taking forever. As for material costs, it's about $1300 and labor is through the roof. But if I had it made by a custom shop, the cost would probably be prohibitive.

Of course if you factor in tools, you'd have to make a lot of cabinets and put in a lot of hours before breaking even.

In the end, a love for woodworking and the satisfaction gained from it can make DIY cabinets seem extremely cheap.