Exterior Door with Lites

[John TenEyck]

I finished installing this stave core construction door yesterday.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4zNY2uEfUXLefGFy8aVeooPRGOcjKKRmbwYWNWC8yvFIvxiOBz M67qe3A9Bh-bqax-9yLqnP_w-63lBsk7loXKlsfRgeRJOGVV0qMz34GtsKloibBhDxZVBBlaVSW 20U-TnSy8FlzceIhi8Io4QLpMaQNWYA7ZNcbQg6HC40wWPO8tBH0Jp 6hanGpc23WI7z_vD-ECqkSIjOS0Gv_K2W24oOUbg15p3QhG3ErjO_DsRg6-Kv9XlQ3WnEX0OQ66TjX-W6rLzHfp8puF7lpgauo6ajcwolP5vxXYHuw16s7IYTK6-YIwJ9jFxWysI42TU-NXXK3Tze0j7NFrrzTnLvU26S_Fne9VBxKv2s73uHWwJofWaVMI hGcf8_e85brwxaiAVg4CqH0iuGLqHzBRjnmSJrAEDPoG4MKcch nGgfDCblB6xO6h-8yaRgBGIvb0p43Gm3q4qb_N_nLSiOxWDAplHy1WCNUN3jxnMoE iR8nCUTiLxuLnGzm_5s5k4Bg2OGwm1w7saX0bNwFntSmivIEOd Zgcx8AETccl-KKpcEjQWL9e3SN8d7s_Y5HvEAFV5S-L--CP_4gXKOIRclzPjg3hHpYy7k_SAXmBjx5KpBbrwOgJzjQ_RNlD fajuoW0d58frgSGg9KqyM2ZRu9qYJdp3iiAPl-eDYAST3x=w838-h628-no

I had never built an exterior door with lites before. Custom sized sealed units were going to run over $500 plus shipping. And I remember Jack Forsberg's comments about them being a failed technology, so I decided to use two pieces of glass sort of like my Pella windows. The outside pane sits against a foam seal:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ECfluKmhqNA_kiS9f_IRvM5oJw-bb6q6_-cC6y8Iipfus8zh0tJOmrqEHlS_JSampciNvhXE6NKbTJf8ukB4 2V1DpMNEl2wmSCLLan1FnCxHnBTpo65Jyo8icSdhV_nXzPatiZ LajKZKhlj3ERc-yjoPfDbbjoMi__9Wy8N0bdv0h5FCijnW15KKtSu_nWfzvMh4J7 MT29Xu4sRIZPj48sbbRp6EH6qT-qfuguNpfG5JzRBme47RSLZDt2h6DjbK2kA6-fq347MJ1EumeeXLWnaAL5SKCbnr0AYrMsTLj-gIZIju5S5pyask5_kW6GHEXV1woTtoLDxS3dqQIKuPcDwRTXap n1vfAdv8_K1RsPNeKyhvBg90JgfeGQmFyB0yWzRqnQOio5CFYi tSI5EkMsZqn0YFJADNNLDckuZ7JBA8QY7ufm7T4lKMtYRpdqCw dgaZ4d-N2X4XO-tkDadSO60_7wc3UdNoceJB1GFbrCKnOi0pgMpu1tGR9LoRGCBg uV71j2szNgMa6Hh6rz0gtrlBTKkh9c60Cz-6TNvoFCHV3jqS1vVD7ne6DLhKWmBFf3Jh_peWzJcl1XBg3tdH5 d3lP3YSt0SJ-qyaoZA0av1EvbzLw2L_HIH2nHpAGfLcvEPcGEbayHhXfYmeZ4t 2RRrYOkk-Icm3OBjk=w838-h628-no

The pieces of light colored wood you see around the inside of the frame are spacers which are the exact thickness of the two panes of glass plus the spacer between them. After the first piece of glass is laid on top of the weather stripping, the glass spacers are laid in and pin nailed to the outer spacers.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bufV_nBIHNixkNzkFi6l6W8nYZHaqttUFPM6f94k0Wsz1CZ7v8 naQmKg_3eYht-WYPRMV6mBi5I0GPn2Cjo6wptfmF-ryebNNjKkzUzxc_N6ki5i74_qIHzjPxg48rT_pR9Fi5pygcq26 rTAn62fhLueCyc1wi6RfuRZEMQ5oUi9G0b4AIQcRKKyN7F0swD 4nGi-8W2jtn6iueF00oWswNo9nnvbC0vpJiGqLDSc57ahQ5JOyyaSd4 Oa8Z24Zwo0L08YGQciIaAhU6J6pl-fckram5SYuKBNQIX96pwXir4uyUq50imZ-U732px-5DeQOXVqaEnuqOmlqpno8122GnTUkUSznnnRy7JxSoFy2f91Bd b-9pBwxhV9KcB0nDjLa75cOFs6MxPY_-S4h4xby3bUgIjghzR3oCH4e309hSrUvatSx7eTYKoy-thsVBq25i4STVWPl_HerjOYWA6O9Tr0rEttaAc_iKsv-1rpSHdmUyCecQ5FiRAzS_qYakq3uHuDBJqm19-djMFFtUOYJGC7A3LQsnovkXIQWa2EB1xQhtWtaq-PWPp11_pdX0Rw7pU7NoC0LobGkqzpH67SpuvdikFc9f4i9c2cR DSv7a1zq0Ln5vbUVH8jFZZB2wHIK116A1XOLDFQ9VBCCcJ1C_d sLGRthkEjU6o0=w838-h628-no


Then the second piece of glass is laid in place. Finally, the retainer pieces are cut and fit into the dado left around the inside of the frame. They look like this.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rKWLRqeXCeV_AnTb_C9GZQSisWU0zrr83scG-53_Jq3dCO7hiI3cUnQyEqVPznb-1n1oLhbGTqqvBcbdz4VE-ZaYScTgl3vLjVvh6ymKeaBRVvOOS9nB610YKqg4sdTM5VAbEql ykHGzHTFg685TaU_jMHTEUiFKKayMxrpNrQT4DB77NyF0gXAhx VQiSsRCBaXtg1FuBBrwqiYiWabvxsCmWO783LfnpxxHhBUoFTc Q6zW9mZjAEt-Ds4ajizP3x9OPpuvQ0IK6-zJAbK18LqApkDurqv-qmQ9g8ISjOHrf2WKuAVtlvdMh7uXC9F_va6XYmnvjEMy4maRbB 5JRD8pXTzeKkBJO53dCobMxYNoKBLkxY69AXBeMs_JR7aI4YTW XcaPca3DHLt6aEM7J7jm1hiWXH2x4O2Svz4cphw-IpCdT_21XunZamoiElruFpA6vGkfa5JRNZH_54_CL5KUwgNejy N5Gv3wSb53kAGacbdU-dh8wNELGmaplqVdkgecDSbMW-J60f_oMpOB9U1n04ZuZPs5-TT0mDAioI1w1jsYouVZQjW9KvkhyslCgqj6OOLSUielAxw5R7L myM2m2bfgXNHVH-nt8poQgHe8aJ0ii-iU0d_7f0uFZRZyJ5O3pQ1zOZGTny-ypBejh2ZJsJylvzAW0_39b=w838-h628-no

After fitting into place I pin nailed them to the frame.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IGZUPhmZyi1nE7F0ztCM3kTGneyqwMrn41t1jZ2VEfW0MU1Kxc LRKpWvcDc3zgdY9IXvTEyAaHaMB8QCmPWQmTxXir-Sk5nT4luhBCF6-nUBNBqaebWBTTNq_snrG-kGhC-yFm-ZShWyvphRfNRpDmRFGwP1S_7EDsL26SNd_C14MDIbguq4bMAsi mtoTCTlkMFCURxDH-kf4_0iZghbN_nFELrAzaLHV0U5z22egm-2PhlFCHsubmUnLNZV7dcGNU1dJSTah1F3OOmB6e0NIK0w0jMh7 bMTZfTm5jbo5vzcHeac_SfRei0XO4hxoiRp1e9lQnMRSt8ysDn _JZMGKASU4WguYs9ur6uPPHXMnGwERjP-GsVg0kzKz3iUY9mtYrC5uB28CzVi8wU_GC3v6zjSkOdihZDtbG 0TUhPUlYh6Ph9CLurcsEsAuD1t2uFHKpMKynXBKJdSrHrnrCC6 j_4q38QgDVbFGduxAVADihDpW_PXuhBIJ6gTGOVMNfI13hi5_t MJ3U-HBOZj3NftPZXawpIp2bII9XU4VkfyHK5FTl5ZJBD-EjWWPedKkPrqAh0TnSHYjUZKKI_iGaH3Az6mXFVvVh2ky7C2E3 g9k-zoftvkSRn_W4M3dHHLcQSXeW1kyB0hHWBFV2dGTeqFmDUctc8M SzYaDwXn=w838-h628-no


This gives a nice, clean look to go with the rest of the door.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bZtPgHk34z84uF4M27X6bn_tEjOicKq48kiRrn3TgTjKF7NFD2 KpPdYeupjSm6XHWyUgKYuYFyLz2V-BEq3k16_EUrBvo_9kHwpu29VD0v_tRGRlJplUEZjPTNjcic2_m DYxEkFzOtAEnPqWLuTfbOXge_DpFSqDef9BSuGACQA4gZf99ny xoItdwBg4USYAfF8JF1Z5l7tavdZu9zIEqFRJEQf1p4bjLDKVz TEXhkYWPNSZqV2Z10AyopYrlssvIJhz0ZL1zZHPPqH1IW7B2OS 0AMmkn7TEvorIWa5EAbx0UWplZ15Uow79Gas2qGv7lwV0etQgg x9CLI23IkkmcZF4K8nvVgdRAHYkkui4uabT_a9LS0pPk2mXmkR 0pL_SBAllj0mJh0PNYEyABOpq9i3CHPIQoaIpf63ZH-wrfOB6bw31TaxINkwSjVDJC5UFsK8wXRaKOQ0ThMBHGNWxjgDL Phesd5oG2K-KzLuEgurCwUj15XchjAiVw9Svmck4JW7zuM_6gRDlV8ZOhv4l6 W5Un00atNiZ98eDrjmLahradf3Xa9oRDBe_fHIGDrc_5VBFrDQ FMQYXHtcu-1dHtn99hQlQ9RfM6x80UfmrtofHuwraIGJZ7jv-c6rhRG0uWPoFLgHu6GHnwXQiyxbmuopcd6OsgSliLLl4=w471-h628-no

For the curious the door is white oak on the outside and white ash on the inside. I filled the grain in the white ash and colored it with dye toners to match the aged pine trim which I reused around the door. The outside is finished with GF's Exterior 450. We'll see how the finish and the door hold up behind the storm door.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oVLLvovy4ITrCkKpIRP54uaxuxy5VLumIVD1UbCOuy0VkWbTxI uyk7K8tiBvtWmmJWAGb8XzF5jJUhIYJIAmLdl0o0rVDx__8TIJ 7IerTL2HXCR0WplHWp52qW-yHis4DsGDyyNwcFPWVa8JLGokkXPVx5DlCd5Z6K0YemQFZ336b VjgiqGjgrv6X9DsvdnW_TP4Oo0gLMe5UIIqog9w11QnpFiCTWm Z9WTz4sl4xbsy-8WMvq0RvGKCUHW8VTsVIYdIUypyzJ12ZfdNydqIiXDv9SFIgyA J-3vnvi-Dvl1Ejv0lgv9jTMFIQ7spccOR2wARhy0n96yQ-W-USk5szltyog_wPwxQ8aSWx3rx1IxHzrSt-zB3_8Ds8iRpUMpBKi0P07zPKeJe3CnYWoXvPU4OS2imfhzBEQY KXsKeiYnbZrdIDIYUues3lKmFmPwjqgb4gl7bcs0yTGY_u42Yd 0i5Wp3_QWrvlnRsFN_TZgIxStfH-XHqZsoehG5JS2VubUXxkSJVQIKwJLSw3s_WLoKy_VN4up1F7e7 CCh1kNdu4I7aykwdfxwzDeDU5wqTlk9xqs9FpE8RTatx8VyCEA tj1OEdZyyfBTC3vfRzNpmgm_6cmDMRRjao11FWmz6-keJfQeG2eyNUTE96y11XdICZHfHaX1yaIK33-=w471-h628-no


John

[Jamie Buxton]

John, have you built windows before with this non-sealed double glazing?

[Sam Murdoch]

I think you might have detailed a winner but I wonder how this would fare without the overhead cover and a storm door.
I'm thinking that the foam might not have created as good a seal as would a bead of silicone. Not being critical - I don't know the answer.
In any case, your system allows for a relatively easy replacement/retrofit if the seal is ever compromised.

This door certainly looks great. Nicely done.

[roger wiegand]

Stunningly nice door for a MCM house!

Will be interested to see how you fare with condensation between the glass layers with unsealed units. I'm curious about the "failed technology" comment with respect to sealed units. I've got about 100 of them and so far they work splendidly, allowing us to have a lot of windows while maintaining exceptional energy efficiency.

[David Utterback]

Thanks for the post of a nice looking door. I am in the middle of constructing 2 entry doors for a friend and each will have a single pane lites. We are using tempered panes as the doors will be fitted to an occasionally used timber frame farm cabin. Except for winter heating with wood, the cabin will not have conditioned air.

The plan has been to seat the glass with silicone with removable trim in case of breakage. I wonder how to minimize damage to the trim you use in case replacement of the glass is needed. Apart from the foam, did you use any sealants.

Thanks again.

[Jim Becker]

Beautiful work, John!

[John TenEyck]

I don't know how the glass will fare over time. The two unsealed panes is not much different from my Pella windows and I very rarely get condensation between them. As you noted, the door is covered by the porch and the storm door, so direct rain against it was not a concern. I'm actually more concerned about how the finish is going to handle being behind the storm door as it faces S. and the sun does hit it for part of the day. But I did make the inside moldings so they can be removed relatively easily in case a pane gets broken, which was the primary reason I didn't set the outside pane in silicone. My sample size on a door with lites now stands at 1, so we'll see how it fares over the next year or so.

John

[John TenEyck]

You'll have to ask Jack directly about his reasons for saying sealed glass units is a failed technology.

John

[John TenEyck]

Thanks. Tempered glass is required in all man doors, so you used the right stuff, as did I with this door. But I would not use single pane glass for an exterior door. It's just not that hard to add a second pane and the thermal performance must be at least 5x higher.

I didn't set the outer pane in silicone because I felt it would be a pain to remove if the glass gets broken. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but that's why I went with the window foam seal. The inner trim is sized so that it slightly compresses the foam seal as it is pressed into place; I'm relying on that to make an airtight seal. To remove the inner trim you just slide a thin plastic putty knife down behind the long, side pieces (only they are pin nailed) to pry them loose. I'll know in a year or so how this approach works. Hopefully, it will fare well because next Summer I have to build another house door with lites. That might be a little higher end job so maybe they will want to pony up for sealed units. If they fail, it likely will be after either of us is around to see it.

John

[Tom Norton]

John, I followed your process on Wood Forum but for some reason I cannot access my account there to ask questions. As I recall you used LVL for the core. Did you buy it from a local lumber yard? Our stores them outside and they have a waxy coating on them. How did you handle these 2 issues? Thanks!

[John TenEyck]

I used poplar for the stave cores of the stiles on this door and LVL for the rails because I had some left over from a prior door project. Normally I use LVL for everything but I had the poplar and didn't have any LVL. I buy LVL beams at my local HD. They are stored inside and are dry. I cut them to rough length then run them through my drum sander to remove the waxy coating. Other folks remove it with 60 or 80 grit on a ROS. I let the sanded sections sit a week or two before using them to make sure the MC is the same as my shop. In this case I didn't have that much time so I used the poplar I already had. Regardless of what I use, I try to let the glued up stave cores sit for at least a week before joint/planing them to final thickness to avoid any unpleasant surprises.

John

[John TenEyck]

One more comment about the foam seal. I used an EPDM closed cell foam specifically made for windows. There is another version made from silicone. In either case, if you expect direct rain you apply a bead of silicone caulk over the edge of the foam. That gives you the advantage of it being completely air/water tight w/o gluing the glass into the molding, and should make it a lot easier to remove if ever needed.

John

[Sam Murdoch]

One more comment about the foam seal. I used an EPDM closed cell foam specifically made for windows. There is another version made from silicone. In either case, if you expect direct rain you apply a bead of silicone caulk over the edge of the foam. That gives you the advantage of it being completely air/water tight w/o gluing the glass into the molding, and should make it a lot easier to remove if ever needed.

John

That's the ticket ^ :cool:

[Scott T Smith]

Great post John. Thanks for sharing.

[John TenEyck]

OK, a further comment about the stave cores as relates to LVL beams. My mentor said he used to use LVL cores essentially as received; just cut them to width and face jointed/planed to thickness, then glued on the veneer skins. But after having a couple of them bend he changed to true stave core construction, so that's how I've built the doors I've made.

To start I rip the LVL into sections a little wider than my desired core thickness, so if I'm making a 1-3/4" exterior door with 3/16" skins, I would rip them at 1-1/2". Then I rotate them 90°, and usually flip every other one end for end as well.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dkGakuvEE9JEe-zEythYyii8f1UZm8uRkyA4V87GZgX2B0dcDjK_X_tDKEwQ6K6r TnDBCdKsB32tAOocx9CDdOWFrAbWAFnMmTMTWv7vEAf4C6_5M4 VmjVvw-TissScBLotbYyZHaDVHHFRr_sjG4Y8s7RLhKC2AnzC8bmKkswK 06OHzDwJ8IGfZJ7cBf0SFaTdSOkVRB57LLe8x5zIeIjqka-fRLHITyIoXth1VHxA9--m4Gn2sCfjdO-8pgTaz0P5zQzZNjddBUXQGbRgrnK4Lz4Xd9E25_IIWWFinrX2I MgEPwRE3KQ3OSdypvgcEcwZ8rtyDTkXxW8X5veuTaqGS6yRblE EkbAa_zgyxZu54dBHeOUNkjuiyUO70BxmZVXwBjN7biAPTZYl3 PjZenXtPx34LLNYysp_qFe5GTd3LmnjfmC6Y-2AH2SLbsq3mqRazMkx5IlxzGEo26ADEBDK1380r_UcXMSJD9RI 3xGFiV8pJZ0bwz8q1ZVGORGPuwgKy3HiAbp7wtWgB_-tnJ9urTHwMwcTXwFQjOs0nTHbnlYVSEY9S_e8zz6Gg2PLsbzAk ItbIpFYHGXttX0uwN3m5wDlfaNbGUo3awC26-BKpsI8XhWUBtO9CSBu5OGWz1Tt4rGmixNjEeMitL42Uz3Doh3L hX2lmg1Ud=w838-h628-no

Then glue them back together with TB II or III in sections large enough to rip out 2 stiles or a top and bottom rail.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FkKEqNxLSHOs9db3r3btIMloJTU8oXTFAKpH4YRKBQBmw_u5UB jusAJrlk5D4xOdGeKoxq7xmHl-wOdPHhpar8AAIua1YLSrSjTrET9Y5tmN92-d6Z0mrVnqWt-b_idwKCpHJhKwiaorlgqscMF0rijGOwvppgibc8ekcbyeD4kTA xr4A8QjPaWTCxSkRu8aTB9RSNj3RC0AjjG-2OHSTQFm8btsVQxELtRJf2dfF4gcgdkO0ZmyaBk4WlXmBqoGJd zemQH9PBAN8ZAuq9azQ40KQ2PlN0woYV_rkzjqSrk5z8Q3zOYE OBGyWAa_KQqzwXahFhhKQlUodtseIuLaAEL8anrXddolUBeYx2 AMvpR055DD35BJIhQmhkGhoFC-uiHlFEB-S5afz198pB1PfVaud3kVdcoE7dJIpy8RgAz9KxkKZ_cguRv2zE 9RTx8mnLknrM5JBxGhUQ2hTVa2i51JPghRWys58psJT4d_DFtR otsOeRBYcVR-lD6vsTMbhdvfzTJDgI2vbDlYeu71bedfzWuGpCltKKxrs61HMk fs3x7e1OH-tN9Tht8kgz6HQwqBkSCTmfl2SkGyZv6KWw26kiJeDqVQ_3LqZN f11jVE2Oot5MyEx6ZT3jPSa3feeWLsHZegPRY8MnvSo3WiMiEW YRTdjh6IwRyC=w838-h628-no

After ripping the stiles to width I glue on the solid wood edging, usually 7/8" thick. Depending upon the design, the solid edging may only be required on the outside edge.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TNw7HY5v__6FoCExChZlMAZZ6z_DFmU_iv-GN77YWlXBcR3-Uf4UXQB7R-3oaK5nvyuwoQmY1TCjzE7Bwrg1fMhqfX8YbZeAyzCsJKBMKndv yQ42Hzs5GIBSDd-WNLdFNzG4Fvb7uyP7sVrdQVzTdMEVE5MAzB78y6FWeIie20gPU oyQlhjEFoKZj5xIpef0opH09PKcRB3FRSM1jDDMS076RG26TBN AUan4a7HSSJ0-69kTarlHRqoeieqwohkoZZ1ZWKo3pBYoC4I2k5EmBfxsYJyQvT lmPKunUF_JhvWPqYRmqZ0LuLcuoN91Ndvlgyqp__bV6-zz0834w4Wj8p-E94yjVPp9uLlNNMeb5vUGYi9iJX5SaoaChHFkspg5R1875d6J2 0TqMBjsAbpmdDsPUhxImZTvagDRIMW_F0RIWIadv_hTOvBFjtY fX85OWsvZtnmNUs4UCq8xMbUBFoDrzeU_-Jzcc4th5aUF7F3ykMdnqW3380FBrtjvcwoMC72zrLwcPXv7eFa um85j43hjO-pAcKVE4m_c4dS7KyCFSU_cUcL780W2Ao1NbGWxWz9H7Vaymt8W RqA8t-jbK7KykYImv8JnYc2tzsGMJPr_0Py0WwVbbjP_TJnGFUqSjXvr DLYv_5_25oXXv0EnjUsSnAqhJNaq4sz3=w838-h628-no

These sections are then face jointed flat and planed to final thicknes. Then the veneer is vacuum bagged on to yield the composite that looks like this.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HI4rwzSBKMKYgw-yVhHJIUd7OkYTEF5q11HKKyI5YQpTJXo2M820tZOd9zjzy64MP Su7zY_-zHSDCTT_DcTx50o0kD9M7NANbM08aZ2lmfNq-h-CUtyKdHQNNrYSANbNjEyRlOOv8vLOKMsIxc99K3mYF2PgyD1Qp-ZxabBZf-o-v0JEbsOtNOXcwNDVUngkjsXPZFoV50qp2r8MrYKmFQllY7SAFu fo7wkPNx4oV_CNfNwOdtdtZcr4AiyyVmxvajrXNVAwJZtAVAiR M4-ifGJ0pvIZ5Hstl8JfaUoby1yHhAE0wmAHdbFXNGOFbhC3YI4BD rbVdc9WzGB8ly-c8b7OtRCEtvYHvObYhXeXSsHa8U1BEYp9bqCyq0RdgeHKLGlIQ DxnzUFY37lBQRCHsPI-yPloGTJIE9JgGP45k13hr2zT5L5qSmrmo9YCCQWFl2UVQG6EHg 2lBgAxAZBfxON1iryoiExu19afynix9azIvQxQF86Ui-6R6YXFes_XU6hS3KsrgdJfL3hy2jJGv0zU5nWFAljMRGChBT6z b-UTS7y8sgw8E3bWbfaM2jxMynR-RuWuTqXzVm0ebBjPL7U8AcVP_RkZpEKPUx4xzRJi2BUBAP-2jEUp8-DWPacOCbN3b9_zqwycLteQ-sZ15LIkMItxYHFuKvu7=w838-h628-no

John

[Mel Fulks]

Good information there. Never used any of those beams,but would have guessed they would be fine the other way. Looks like changining lam direction is a good idea.