One more about the Veritas VMII chisels

[Dennis Droege]

In my opinion, these chisels stay sharper longer than any others I've used, and they are not hard to sharpen.

[Frederick Skelly]

Dennis, what sharpening media are you using? Diamond, ceramic, etc?

[steven c newman]

Info-mercial?

[Simon MacGowen]

Info-mercial?

You bet. :D

But that's not restricted to one particular company or brand, AND certainly not to new tools only.

Simon

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Info-mercial?

And for just 35 easy payments of $19.99 I will send you a set! :D

My set seems to get and stay pretty sharp. I always feel like I am abusive to my chisels when I am cutting my dovetails. I really need to reread Derek's post about what angles he uses..... I have not done any testing to see which requires less frequent honing during use.

I will admit, however, that for most things I just grab the closest properly sized chisel and use it; I try to keep all of them sharp and ready to.

I have been practicing my half blind dovetails since I have that fancy new half blind tool from Ron (https://www.bontzsawworks.net/half-blind-dovetail-tool/). Some day I might make one from a paint scraper like someone here did..... Then again, the one I have works very well so far, and since time is at a premium, maybe not.

I grabbed a mortise chisel to clear the initial waste from the half blinds, at least for the last couple that I did.

[Jim Koepke]

I grabbed a mortise chisel to clear the initial waste from the half blinds, at least for the last couple that I did.

That sounds a bit awkward.

My last foray into half blind dovetails had me using a forestner bit to remove the initial waste. It did speed things up, but a mistake can be nasty. DAMHINT!

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

In my opinion, these chisels stay sharper longer than any others I've used, and they are not hard to sharpen.

Tools always seem to bring out the religous zealots. There are guys on this, and other, forums who simply cannot abide anything nice being said about a tool or manufacturer on the "other side". So-called premium tools drive the bargain hunter wild. And bargain tools aapear to threaten the self esteem of those that paid more .. often a lot more. Let's not even begin to discuss which sharpening stone or method is better.

I have done tests on tools to determine some factors, such as the longevity of the edge of different chisel steel types. This type of test is not to be constued as "which chisel is best". The fact is that there are too many factors in choosing a chisel that make this an impossible mission. For example, how does one decide on such subjective issues involved in the design of a handle? What is comfortable to me may not be so for you, or what I like in the aesthetic department is sure to irritate another.

But one thing I can say with confidence is that the PM-V11 steel blades will last longer than the HCS of a vintage Stanley 750 or a Marples boxwood (I have sets of both), since I have compared these and written about them. The results were decisive. PM-V11 scored 100 goals and 1950 (whatever) HCS score 10.

This has nothing to say about the chisel I like to use. I have a set of PM-V11 that live on my bench. I also have a set of Marples boxwood that do the same. For chopping or heavier work, the PM come out. The handles of the Veritas are really great in my hands, but I do prefer the slimmer and lighter blades of the Marples ... what I do not like is that the edges need more frequent work, and usually when I am hyperfocussing on a task. I also love the Blue Spruce chisels I have owned for more than a decade. This is the original set of detail/dovetail chisels. Beautiful chisels, exceptional handles, and I love their lightness. Not mad about the A2 steel ... although, to be fair, it gets really sharp and hold this longer than the HCS.

The Veritas live on my bench for the simple reason that they are a great allrounder. They do a bit of everything well. The edge holding is shaded by Japanese chisels, such as Koyamaichi. The handles are excellent, although the Blue Spruce are nicer looking and the boxwood Marples just have this amazing aesthetic to my eyes. I do wish that Veritas would bring out a set of PM chisels with slimmer blades, something along the lines of the BS. But perhaps they might not then chop as well, and their top all rounder status be lost.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

Earlier made HCS steel offer me too many advantages to change.

Stewie;

[Warren Mickley]

I use Cast Steel chisels (English, 19th Century). Whenever I try to duplicate Derek's tests I get better results for longevity than any of the chisels in his tests. This may be due to sharpening media, sharpening technique, or technique in using the chisels as well as properties of the chisels themselves.

[Derek Cohen]

I use Cast Steel chisels (English, 19th Century). Whenever I try to duplicate Derek's tests I get better results for longevity than any of the chisels in his tests. This may be due to sharpening media, sharpening technique, or technique in using the chisels as well as properties of the chisels themselves.

Warren, what can anyone say? Anyone here with an intimate knowledge of cast steel chisels? I do have Ward oval bolstered mortice chisels, which are laminated. They are excellent blades. I have never used a Butcher bench chisel. I would not know where to find one. I do keep an eye out, but all I have seen (on eBay) are worn out versions. They would not tell me anything. No doubt you could pop down to your local market and find some. Not happening any time soon in my neck of the woods.

As to technique, no doubt you are streets ahead of me. I am not competing with you. Are you competing with me? I report what I find, providing as much documentation so that others - like yourself - can replicate what I did. I mentioned earlier why I like what I like. I don't expect everyone to agree.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

As to technique, no doubt you are streets ahead of me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Why being so humble, Derek?

Unless someone knows and uses a super-secret technique that we don't know, your sharpening technique is fine and is just as good as anyone else's.

I am now convinced sharpening has been made to appear to be hard because of all the hair-splitting discussions. To a great extent, that was why many beginners found Paul Seller's method refreshing and do-able. I call it a no BS approach using just diamond stones with no maintenance costs. Rob Cosman jumps from 1000x to 8000x and his technique is fine, too. So is the meticulous approach of David Charlesworth. Needless to say, mine works just as well which is different from all of the above.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

I read the above as referring to technique in use rather than sharpening. I see many people holding the blade and chopping this is very hard on the chisel edge. I see also people using the back in scenarios where the bevel should be used, this too is harder on the tool.

[Derek Cohen]

Brian, I also understand it being about technique.

When chopping, I do not take more than 1mm slices (at most).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_2a161e0e.jpg

Two different individuals may use the same blade and get different results. I'd say my technique is appropriate. That is not to say it cannot be done better.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

I read the above as referring to technique in use rather than sharpening.

If indeed Derek was referring to technique in use, I, for one, would like to know and am eager to learn what super-secret chisel technique that someone is using and that Derek is not aware of. Or, what chisel technique that Derek thinks he is streets behind.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Brian, I also understand it being about technique.

When chopping, I do not take more than 1mm slices (at most).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_2a161e0e.jpg

Two different individuals may use the same blade and get different results. I'd say my technique is appropriate. That is not to say it cannot be done better.

Regards from Perth

Derek
The picture was helpful.

That's one approach or technique, a slow one. Another approach which I also use now and then (depending on my mood and type of wood!) is to bang the heck out of it in 2mm slices or more (?) (never measured them). That's quick, furious may I say. Yes, edges dull quicker, but honing the edge back (32 - 35 degrees, again never used an angle gauge to check) takes just seconds (or a minute or two tops; again never timed it).

So, techniques are important but different techniques may bring the same outcomes..."streets ahead" or behind most likely is just a perception thing here.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

If indeed Derek was referring to technique in use, I, for one, would like to know and am eager to learn what super-secret chisel technique that someone is using and that Derek is not aware of. Or, what chisel technique that Derek thinks he is streets behind.

Simon

I can only speak for my own experience and the things I've done which have noticeably improved my work over the years since I began making furniture.

I provided mine above. The more often you utilize the bevel, the easier you are on the tool. Look at videos of sashimono-shi who have been working with handtools for their entire careers. They're very careful in how they chop, but very effective. I can't recall ever seeing them chop straight down, they always use the bevel to chop.

I chopped 40 half-blind dovetails last Thursday and needed to touch up my chisel with a fine stone once.

[Jim Koepke]

That's one approach or technique, a slow one.

My recollection is Derek saws the waste before the final chopping of the waste. My recollector could be on the blink.

My favorite chisels for paring away the waste of dovetail and other joinery are my thin blade Buck Brothers chisels. With an approximately 15 - 20º bevel the edge is prone to quickly fading or micro chipping. They can be quickly touched up on oilstones and be back to work in no time.

For mallet work there are plenty of other chisels available.

Different folks have different motivations. Some want a minimalist accumulation around their shop. The more stuff there is the more storage space it will take. One can only envy how much easier it is to grab a chisel for paring which is the same chisel used for every other chisel task. Try to imagine the situation in my shop when a decision has to be made about which 1/4" chisel to dig up to be used for a specific task. Then imagine the extra work of keeping them all sharp at their different bevel angles.

If there is one set of chisels that can "do it all," then that is the super-secret chisel technique.

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

One can only envy how much easier it is to grab a chisel for paring which is the same chisel used for every other chisel task.

If there is one set of chisels that can "do it all," then that is the super-secret chisel technique.

jtk

And then there is the situation where someone has one set of chisels and is damn glad for that. Making do is not a sin.

[Simon MacGowen]

I chopped 40 half-blind dovetails last Thursday and needed to touch up my chisel with a fine stone once.

That sure is one way to do it. If I were to chop 40 tails (half-blind or full), I would sure hone my edge many more than once assuming I was using the blunt chops. But since I removed more materials each chop, I would end up finishing them just in the amount of time, if not a little faster, if I used the "1mm or less" chops.

That at least has been my dovetail experience all these years, as I still use both approaches.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

And then there is the situation where someone has one set of chisels and is damn glad for that. Making do is not a sin.

Yes, my days of only having one or two planes and not many more chisels isn't that far behind me.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

That sure is one way to do it. If I were to chop 40 tails (half-blind or full), I would sure hone my edge many more than once assuming I was using the blunt chops. But since I removed more materials each chop, I would end up finishing them just in the amount of time, if not a little faster, if I used the "1mm or less" chops.

That at least has been my dovetail experience all these years, as I still use both approaches.

Simon

Have you tried chopping straight in and compared to chopping with the use of the bevel? I adjust the amount of thickness I chop to the material and of course take fine cuts at the baseline. Not sure I’ve really measured the thickness of material at each chop, it always depends.

[Simon MacGowen]

Have you tried chopping straight in and compared to chopping with the use of the bevel? I adjust the amount of thickness I chop to the material and of course take fine cuts at the baseline. Not sure I’ve really measured the thickness of material at each chop, it always depends.

Are you referring to what I call a bevel-down cut (pare or chop)?

I have used chisels with their bevels up and/or down, which comes natural to me, depending on the grain directions or what the cut is for (e.g. accessing the deep, inside corners) or the work relative to my standing or sitting position. As I said, regardless of the type of chop I use, I only need to monitor one thing as I go: the edge. I rely on the feedback in the form of sound or amount of force I use or feel (on the back of the chisel) to tell me if it is time to stop and hone. Better hone before the edge is too dull; rehoning a less keen (as opposed to a dull) edge takes seconds, in 90% of the time or more, well under a minute (no jigs used of course). This is where experience counts. And I don't care about the steel, angle, sharpening media...all work, just with some difference.

The most important thing is the end result. To get the desired result, the last chisel cut(s) on the scribed line must be deadly precise and clean, and that is when I care. The materials removed before that are immaterial to me, much in the same way that I don't care about the shavings, only the surface left behind after a keen edge kisses it matters to me.

Simon

[James Pallas]

Have you tried chopping straight in and compared to chopping with the use of the bevel? I adjust the amount of thickness I chop to the material and of course take fine cuts at the baseline. Not sure I’ve really measured the thickness of material at each chop, it always depends.
I'm not sure I understand using the bevel to chop and in what circumstances you would do it. I don't consider myself any kind of expert on sharpening. I get edges sharp enough for my use. I don't think I spend much time on it. I don't even think about it much. When I think the tool needs the edge cleaned up I just do it without giving it much thought, just part of the regular routine of work. I think I tend to take thin bites just out of habit. When I chop mortises I go for bigger chips but not on anything else. Like I said I don't think about it, I just do it.
Jim

[David Eisenhauer]

Brian - Are you talking about whether or not to lean the chisel over so that the bevel edge is perpendicular to the material rather than the body of the chisel being perpendicular?

[Brian Holcombe]

David, I start with the chisel upright and lean it further and further over as I near the baseline. Sometimes I chop the baseline with the chisel upright and the bevel away from the baseline but sometimes I use the bevel to chop the baseline. It’s difficult to do but it results in a cleaner landing. Chopping straight up and down will usually pull material out of the center of the shoulder. Chopping with the bevel will not do so.

[Simon MacGowen]

David, I start with the chisel upright and lean it further and further over as I near the baseline. Sometimes I chop the baseline with the chisel upright and the bevel away from the baseline but sometimes I use the bevel to chop the baseline. It’s difficult to do but it results in a cleaner landing. Chopping straight up and down will usually pull material out of the center of the shoulder. Chopping with the bevel will not do so.

Now I get it. You are talking about avoiding the waste collapsing under the scribed line when the final chops are made. I seldom worry about that, but when I do (for instance, when the cuts are exposed), I use a technique that I saw Ian Kirby use (a long time ago when he still did demos!): He creates what he calls a center mound with angled cuts, avoiding undercutting the shoulder on the opposite side. Then he pares to remove the mould.

Is his the same as the Japanese approach (I am not a student of Japanese techniques, other than owning a couple of Japanese pull saws)?

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Brian - the bevel edge is perpendicular to the material rather than the body of the chisel being perpendicular?

Often used in that manner when mortising.

Simon

[David Eisenhauer]

Simon, yes, agreed. However, I have never used the bevel side against the end line as Brian says he does at times. Must try that tomorrow. I am in the midst of 16 through mortises in 2-1/2" thick (and hard) material.

[Brian Holcombe]

I actually do it because riding the bevel drives the waste out more effectively. I don’t always use it at the baseline, generally I do so between twin tenons. For dovetails I waste them out riding the bevel, then turn the blade and chop down straight.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/img_8823.jpg

[David Eisenhauer]

Thanks Brian. I am working on twin through tenons now after breaking the tip off of my chisel on one of the first 8 stop mortises I worked on first. I am using my old (and familiar) registered firmer type chisel to chop these while I put a few minutes at a time on the broken-tip repair. That one is nearly completed with re establishing the 20 deg edge and should be ready for the 35 deg micro bevel soon. Need to correct some out-of-square face grinding across the top edge of the 20 deg bevel face and polish it up some. I did try some of your double run chopping before debris removal, but figured out that I had let my "bite size" increase when moving ahead for the next chop and probably took too big a bite when I broke the tip off. I pay better attention now and am seeing a familiar pattern of the debris being pushed away from the flat side of the chisel by the bevel. A perpendicular chisel (rather than a perpendicular tip) is working better in this hard pecan.

[Patrick Chase]

Why being so humble, Derek?

It's more a statement of fact in this instance. Warren is streets ahead of just about everybody, even if he doesn't always express his knowledge in the most "affirming" manner.

[Stewie Simpson]

The following is a set of circa 1960s Marples Boxwood Firmer Chisels that I use regular in my workshop. Would I trade these in to purchase a set of Veritas PMV-11 Chisels. Not a chance. Their beautifully designed, they hold and retain an excellent edge, and can be re-sharpened with my choice of oil or water stones.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg.html)

[Simon MacGowen]

It's more a statement of fact in this instance. Warren is streets ahead of just about everybody, even if he doesn't always express his knowledge in the most "affirming" manner.

You know that for a fact?

Quick, please tell us more whatever you know about the advanced chisel technique!

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

The following is a set of circa 1960s Marples Boxwood Firmer Chisels that I use regular in my workshop. Would I trade these in to purchase a set of Veritas PMV-11 Chisels. Not a chance. Their beautifully designed, they hold and retain an excellent edge, and can be re-sharpened with my choice of oil or water stones.



NEITHER WOULD I.

And that's a fact.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

You know that for a fact?

Quick, please tell us more whatever you know about the advanced chisel technique!

Simon

Simon,

Warren has something like 40 years of daily handtool use at a high level.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Brian. I am working on twin through tenons now after breaking the tip off of my chisel on one of the first 8 stop mortises I worked on first. I am using my old (and familiar) registered firmer type chisel to chop these while I put a few minutes at a time on the broken-tip repair. That one is nearly completed with re establishing the 20 deg edge and should be ready for the 35 deg micro bevel soon. Need to correct some out-of-square face grinding across the top edge of the 20 deg bevel face and polish it up some. I did try some of your double run chopping before debris removal, but figured out that I had let my "bite size" increase when moving ahead for the next chop and probably took too big a bite when I broke the tip off. I pay better attention now and am seeing a familiar pattern of the debris being pushed away from the flat side of the chisel by the bevel. A perpendicular chisel (rather than a perpendicular tip) is working better in this hard pecan.

Thats good to hear! My technique works best for me because I use Japanese mortise chisels which really shouldn’t be levered, so I just chop up the waste.

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon,

Warren has something like 40 years of daily handtool use at a high level.

Please don't misconstrue my intention. I am seriously interested in any dvanced chiselling techniques that would add to the existing body of knowledge and practice.

Many skilled chisel users including David Charlesworth, Jeff Miller, Paul Sellers and Ian Kirby have contributed in this area in the form of articles and/or videos (before them, Hayward and Kingshott). We should welcome any instructional contributions from Warren if he has the time. I never stop learning.

Simon

[Jeff Ranck]

I can only speak for my own experience and the things I've done which have noticeably improved my work over the years since I began making furniture.

I provided mine above. The more often you utilize the bevel, the easier you are on the tool. Look at videos of sashimono-shi who have been working with handtools for their entire careers. They're very careful in how they chop, but very effective. I can't recall ever seeing them chop straight down, they always use the bevel to chop.

I chopped 40 half-blind dovetails last Thursday and needed to touch up my chisel with a fine stone once.

So I got lost somewhere along the way. What do you mean when you say using the bevel to chop? Placing the bevel edge (rather than the flat back) along the baseline (or whatever line you are using) and then chopping down so that the chisel is forced out and away?

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes, that's accurate. However, like I said I don't often use this for the baseline, only for exceptional circumstances.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

That sounds a bit awkward.

My last foray into half blind dovetails had me using a forestner bit to remove the initial waste. It did speed things up, but a mistake can be nasty. DAMHINT!

jtk

My process is as follows:



Mark it (well duh)
Make an initial cut with the saw
Use that Ron Bontz half blind tool to "finish the cut" on the sides to the base line all the way back.
Use a regular chisel to deepen the mark at the lower base line (so not into the end grain).
use the mortise chisel to chop down into the end grain. Because I deepened the mark first, the wood brakes. I initially take a very thin cut. I can really use any chisel for the first cut.
Sometimes I repeat step 4 at this point.
Use the mortise chisel in the end grain again, working my way back towards the line, but I do not hit the line. This is very fast, and because of the mortise chisel geometry, it is very fast and quickly removes material.
I then finish it off with regular chisels cleaning up the sides and bottom. This includes the final pairing to the back line pushing down into the end grain.

[Pat Barry]

Yes, that's accurate. However, like I said I don't often use this for the baseline, only for exceptional circumstances.
Do you tip the handle of the chisel back to match the bevel angle? Then you are striking the handle with your mallet at ~30 degree angle to the work. I don't see why this would be beneficial. It actually seems counterintuitive to me. My past use of 'riding the bevel' is for situations such as lateral chopping at the bottom corners of a mortise where the bevel can slide along the bottom. Can't do that any other way.

[ken hatch]

The following is a set of circa 1960s Marples Boxwood Firmer Chisels that I use regular in my workshop. Would I trade these in to purchase a set of Veritas PMV-11 Chisels. Not a chance. Their beautifully designed, they hold and retain an excellent edge, and can be re-sharpened with my choice of oil or water stones.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg.html)

!+, my only difference is most of mine have a flat neck (pre 1930's or so). It's hard to improve on perfection. Of course as with all things wood YMMV.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Do you tip the handle of the chisel back to match the bevel angle? Then you are striking the handle with your mallet at ~30 degree angle to the work. I don't see why this would be beneficial. It actually seems counterintuitive to me. My past use of 'riding the bevel' is for situations such as lateral chopping at the bottom corners of a mortise where the bevel can slide along the bottom. Can't do that any other way.

No, not usually. I'd like not to fixate on the baseline as I mentioned I don't often use this for baselines, except in rare circumstance. I use it to chop the waste. Basically I hold the chisel as I normally would and the chisel functions to push the waste out of the joint. If you always chop down with the back toward the baseline then the chisel is being driven into the wood and supported by the short grain. If you face the bevel toward the baseline then the chisel is driving through the short grain and it's being supported by the end grain.

[Pat Barry]

No, not usually. I'd like not to fixate on the baseline as I mentioned I don't often use this for baselines, except in rare circumstance. I use it to chop the waste. Basically I hold the chisel as I normally would and the chisel functions to push the waste out of the joint. If you always chop down with the back toward the baseline then the chisel is being driven into the wood and supported by the short grain. If you face the bevel toward the baseline then the chisel is driving through the short grain and it's being supported by the end grain.
Thanks for clarifying because that was lost on me while I was imagining what you meant about riding the bevel differently. I was trying to remember you doing strange things on your videos and didn't see such nonsense. Now it makes sense that you are just facing the bevel toward the baseline or away from it and using the resulting leverage to your advantage. I do that all the time in an effort to reduce the work required by my non-expert technique.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

sometimes I am slow.... well often I am slow, so I am going to repeat what I think I just read....

(Q) For this discussion, does it matter if I am trying to (1) push into end grain (like when I am clearing my half blind dovetails) or (2) cut through long grain fibers. I assume the later (2) cutting long grain.

(Q) for this discussion, we are always cutting near an edge, so when I bang that chisel into the wood, something will be pushed or leveraged out. In other words, it is irrelevant if I am establishing a base line and and am creating an initial mark or deepening an existing mark that does not cause wood to be pushed out.

[Warren Mickley]

<p>
I let ride the bevel for gross waste removal also. I think a flat bevel without either hollow grind or secondary bevel works best. Also it is helpful to avoid wiggling the chisel or scraping the edge in the work. A lot of workers mindlessly scrape the edge when flicking the waste away. So even if they are following some reasonable method of chiseling, they are shortening edge life unconsciosly.</p>

[Jim Koepke]

My process is as follows:



Mark it (well duh)
Make an initial cut with the saw
Use that Ron Bontz half blind tool to "finish the cut" on the sides to the base line all the way back.
Use a regular chisel to deepen the mark at the lower base line (so not into the end grain).
use the mortise chisel to chop down into the end grain. Because I deepened the mark first, the wood brakes. I initially take a very thin cut. I can really use any chisel for the first cut.
Sometimes I repeat step 4 at this point.
Use the mortise chisel in the end grain again, working my way back towards the line, but I do not hit the line. This is very fast, and because of the mortise chisel geometry, it is very fast and quickly removes material.
I then finish it off with regular chisels cleaning up the sides and bottom. This includes the final pairing to the back line pushing down into the end grain.


My process on half blind dovetails includes sawing an extra kerf in the center and taking it to the base line with the Ron Bontz half blind tool. This makes popping the waste out very quick and easy.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

A lot of workers mindlessly scrape the edge when flicking the waste away. So even if they are following some reasonable method of chiseling, they are shortening edge life unconsciosly.

I had not previously given that much thought until my current project, when it occurred to me that it was probably the case. Nice to see it written down.

[Jim Koepke]

My past use of 'riding the bevel' is for situations such as lateral chopping at the bottom corners of a mortise where the bevel can slide along the bottom. Can't do that any other way.

Try a swan neck or lock mortise chisel, they are the cat's pajamas for such things.

jtk

[Jeff Ranck]

Yes, that's accurate. However, like I said I don't often use this for the baseline, only for exceptional circumstances.

Thanks Brian. I can now visualize what is happening.

[Dennis Droege]

Frederick, for the last year or so I've been using diamond plates and leather. I've had a lifelong fondness for stones, though. It's just that the diamonds (coarse) seem to take the material off faster during the initial work with less mess.