Saw Nut Removal? old Disston Back Saw

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

I just got an old Disston back saw. Dating it by the Disston Institute site, it is from between 1878 to 1888. It is in really good shape, considering the age.

I have restored a Jackson back saw, about from this same time period, I think.

However, while reading about the saw, and I think the article was also from the Disston Institute, but don't know for sure, the article said NOT to try to remove the saw nuts on these old saws, just clean them up without removal.

I thought this topic came up here, and did a search but could not find it. I hadn't read this before working on the old Jackson and removed the saw nuts without any trouble when I restored it.

The question: is this advise aimed only at the old split nut saws, or at all of them. I am tempted to try light force on the saw nuts to see if they will turn easily. It certainly is easier and more effective to restore one if you remove the handle.

What do you think, and do you have any advise on removing the old saw nuts other than go very easy and see if they will turn easily?

If you were me would you try to remove the handle, or avoid even trying to remove it even if using great care?

Thanks in advance for any advise.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[lowell holmes]

I always use a screw driver that fits the slot in the saw nut. If you have a screw driver that has hex shaft, a small crescent wrench will fit the shaft.
Don't get carried away, just apply constant pressure until you get it to budge. Be patient.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

I removed the nuts and screws from every saw I've rehabbed. One of the issues is that the wood can be swelled around the head of the screw or the nut and then its removal will tear chunks of wood. There are pics of what I'm talking about here:

http://takeadiptools.com/page5.php

Other than that I haven't had any issues removing saw nuts. Just make sure the screwdriver fits the slot well like Lowell said.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stew; that advise is restricted to the early type of split nut assemblies.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medallionpage/splitnut.jpg

[Stew Denton]

Thanks Stewie,

I didn't pay enough attention the the article when I read it, and took it to be about all of the really old saws. Later, I began thinking about it, and began to wonder if it was really aimed at just the much weaker split nut variety.

That is why I mentioned restoring the Jackson, in that I had taken it apart with absolutely no problems, and believed it to be about the same vintage as the current Disston. That being the case it likely had almost identical saw nuts, since it was made by Disston. I am not talking about apperance As such, if it came apart easily and was undamaged in the process, maybe the Disston would too. However, the article made me nervous about working on the nice old Disston, and it is old enough and nice enough that I didn't want to mess it up, even though it will definitely be a user.

I am not a collector, just a user, so won't spend the premium dollar for the really nice looking old tools. Consequently I normally go for tools that I think are very restorable, but are not usually "pretty" when I get them.

I have restored a number of old saws, but the Jackson is the only back saw I have worked on. I try to make them as nice as I can, and will go to too much time and effort to do so. However I have quite a few more old saws to restore, and will eventually do quite a few of them. Because I have too many, I may get to the point of just making serviceable users out of quite a few, rather than to also make them look as nice as I reasonably can.

Thanks go to the others for their comments as well.

For what it's worth, I don't have a screw driver that will fit the old saw nuts very well, but on the other hand am a very patient careful type, and I normally don't damage any slots if there is any way to avoid damage to the slots.

Further, I usually try to restore the slots and heads on messed up saw nuts and machine screws on planes, often taking too much time to do so. I don't make them look brand new, but usually improve the looks a lot. For that reason I work hard to avoid doing damage to the slots and heads. It is too much trouble to repair them, and even after I work on them they still never look very close to "perfect." They do look better, but again not perfect.

I have bought some old screw drivers at garage sales, with the intent to forge and grind some into screw drivers that will fit the slots on the old machine screws on my old planes and saws. However, I have not forged and ground any of them yet, but intend to do such.

Again thanks, and regards,

Stew

[Pete Taran]

Stew,

I read your post and can't understand what the reservation is. If it's a split nut type fastener, don't remove it. They were not designed to remove.

If it is a regular, domed saw nut, you can remove them with some caveats. Before the standard Glover Style nut came into vogue, Disston patented a nut that looked like it from the outside, but was different on the inside. The Glover nut made saw hardware by swaging and had the modern sized thick shafts. They were almost impossible to break and were very durable. The Disston patent, however, was cast and had slender shanks like a split nut screw. While it's typically no problem in removing them, they are very fragile and can not take a lot of torque. When tightening, you need to be VERY careful. The force that you can apply easily exceeds the strength of that shaft and it will shear off with almost no effort. These sorts of nuts are very hard to find by way of replacement. So, if your saw has these thinner shanked screws, exercise extreme caution when reassembling.

[steven c newman]

Many a time, when an old saw comes in...the handle feels loose on the plate. Holes for the bolts are wallered out, to the point the bolts will just spin. Makes things fun to remove the bolts.

[Jim Huelskoetter]

My 1880s Disston came with two broken screws and missing those nuts. The remaining nuts are not split type. The screws are much smaller diameter than on newer Disstons. I dont know whether my saw was damaged during disassembly or reassembly, but I decided to clean up without trying to remove the handle.

[Pete Taran]

Jim,

You know what I'm talking about then. I'm sure the nuts were sheared off on reassembly.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is a page with different saw nut patents:

http://www.datamp.org/patents/search/xrefType.php?cat=90&type=130&class=4300

Of most interest is the Disston patent of 1876 and Glover's patent of 1887.

Also of interest to some is there are patent images. Some of them are of different medallions used by makers.

jtk

[Stew Denton]

Pete,

The reason for the reservation was the article that I read that said not to remove the saw nuts from the older Disston saws because they often would break on removal. This in spite of the fact that I had always removed the handles from all of the saws I had restored. However, it now seems pretty clear, based on your comment and the one by Stewie, that the comment was aimed solely at the split nut types.

My Jackson clearly had the type of earlier saw nut that you describe, the ones with the narrower shank, as they are clearly less manly than those of the newer Glover type that are on all of the other saws that I have restored. Up until this point I had always removed the handles and dealt with the handle, the blade, and the saw nuts individually, not left together in one piece.

I am quite sure that my latest Disston back saw also has the narrower shank saw nuts.

Thank you for the advise to be very careful and light handed, and I will certainly take your advise and be very careful. The handle is just a tad bit loose, so I will have to be even more careful.

Thanks for the advise.

Stew

[Stew Denton]

Jim,

Thanks for the post with the link to the pictures. Until those pictures I was uncertain which style of saw nut the Glover's patent was.

After looking at the pictures in the link you posted, I replied to Pete. As mentioned in that reply, I am now sure that the new (to me) saw has the older Disston patent type of saw nuts, as does the Jackson. I will have to be extra careful, after reading Pete's comments.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[Jerry Olexa]

Hard to rehab a vintage saw without removing the nuts and handle....They may be referring to the earlier split variety..Just be gentle..Don't force it.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Stew, glad to be of help.

One of the problems with the split nuts is after they were installed they were often sanded flush. This can roll some of the material into the threads in the slot and jam the nut. Another weakness is if the post was soldered to the disk. It was the fastener technology of the mid 19th century.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

see the link below.

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-SPLIT.XX/The_Gramercy_Tools_Split_Driver_and_Split_Nuts

I had one before Harvey came ashore. The flood left my shop a mess.

[Mike Allen1010]

Stew,

I read your post and can't understand what the reservation is. If it's a split nut type fastener, don't remove it. They were not designed to remove.

If it is a regular, domed saw nut, you can remove them with some caveats. Before the standard Glover Style nut came into vogue, Disston patented a nut that looked like it from the outside, but was different on the inside. The Glover nut made saw hardware by swaging and had the modern sized thick shafts. They were almost impossible to break and were very durable. The Disston patent, however, was cast and had slender shanks like a split nut screw. While it's typically no problem in removing them, they are very fragile and can not take a lot of torque. When tightening, you need to be VERY careful. The force that you can apply easily exceeds the strength of that shaft and it will shear off with almost no effort. These sorts of nuts are very hard to find by way of replacement. So, if your saw has these thinner shanked screws, exercise extreme caution when reassembling.

+1 FWIW, I strongly encourage anyone to follow Pete's advice. Likely he's forgotten more about hand saws than most of us will ever know. IMHO, our current culture uses the term "expert" far too loosely. In Pete's case it's entirely appropriate.


Disclaimer: I'm certainly no "expert" myself, just a longtime satisfied customer of vintage saws.com.


Best, Mike

[maximillian arango]

The few times I have had to pull them out I use an exacto knife to cut around the nuts so the wood isn't stuck in there and have a thick old craftsman screwdriver that I ground down to fit and filed a void in the middle. I have had issues with the screws being stuck in so I use a C-Clamp that has a needle point to push the threaded end and a socket over head so there is room for the screw to exit. I'm cheap so I've had this problem often since I buy tools in the worst shape.

[steven c newman]

One can make a split nut driver......by regrinding a spade drill bit to fit. Grind it back to the hole, grind it for thickness. Square the hole. Install in a hex driver of your choice.