Red Oak Table top - Linseed oil & epoxy

[zach VELIVIS]

We are just about done building a large table that is 4ft wide x 9 1/2 long for out fire house. It is made out of red oak. Our plan is to use boiled linseed oil on the base and top. Next our logo is going to be printed on the top with a large format printer. One of our members works for a the manufacturer of the printers and one of his customers will take care of the logo for us.

For the top coat we want to do an epoxy pour. I wanted to make sure its ok to apply the epoxy over the boiled linseed oil. This table will be in our day room at the fire house and needs to stand up to a lot of wear and tear.

[Doug Hepler]

Zach,

Do you mean that the logo will be printed directly on the wood top or will it be printed on a piece of fabric or paper that will be applied to the top? I have no experience with epoxy over linseed oil. Dewaxed shellac will pop the grain pretty well, especially if you darken it a tiny bit with Trans-Tint wood dye. I would think that the printing ink would adhere well to shellac, if you will be printing directly onto the top. Also, in my experience epoxy will adhere well to dewaxed shellac.

Doug

[Jim Becker]

The issue with oiling a very open pore wood like oak is that you often don't get a good "cure" for the oil in those large pores. At a minimum, you'll need to seal it with the de-waxed shellac that Doug mentioned before doing the pour, You could also use a couple coats of a non-polyurethane oil based varnish to get the same "pop" as the oil and with a light abrasion get good adhesion from the epoxy. As always you should TEST every step on scrap of the same wood you'll use in your project to be sure you know what your end result will look like. Don't experiment on the actual project!

[Wayne Lomman]

No, don't oil under the epoxy. Epoxy will not bond to the oil. It is a guaranteed recipe for failure especially on such a large surface.

Using shellac or oil based urethane will cause the same failure, just taking a little longer to cause problems. Shellac is a weak bonding agent compared to epoxy. Urethanes are softer, more flexible and chemically different to epoxy and will disbond due to different expansion and contraction as well. These products are ok over the top of epoxy but not under it.

If you want the colour of the boiled linseed oil, stain it with a dye type stain. After the epoxy is finished, by all means oil the base etc. But keep the oil, shellac, urethane away until the epoxy is finished. Sorry to present a contrary view, but epoxy coatings are my daily responsibility. Can you post a photo when the job is finished? Cheers

[Jim Becker]

Wayne, I mentioned "non-polyurethane" in my post. Would that be compatible once cured and abraded? (I personally hate "polyurethane" anyway... ;) ...except for floors)

[Wayne Lomman]

Jim, any of the commonly available non polyurethane products will pose a similar risk. The difference in chemical composition, flexibility and inherent strength mean that the job will fail, especially given that the substrate is timber.

There is a class of modified epoxies that are surface tolerant. They will stick to anything so long as the existing coating/substrate has similar strength to the epoxy. This means not even these coatings work over oil and varnishes. If the OP stains and goes straight to epoxy, it will work provided it's not too thick a coat. Cheers

[zach VELIVIS]

Thanks for all of the comments everyone. Most of what everyone has written was echoed by the guys at my sawmill. They said we would have to put the dewaxed shelac over the oil before the epoxy.

After reading Wayne's comments I don't think i want to risk doing the linseed, shelac, epoxy plan.

The reason we wanted to do a flood epoxy pour is so this table will hold up to the abuse fireman will give it and we want it to last 100 years. The base of this table is made from 4 x 6 red oak that used to be 10ft long beams. These beams were part of our trench rescue equipment. I'm big on history and wanted this table to have some of it. The beams were in our trench trailer for about 25-30 years.

We have tested the linseed oil on a piece of this wood and it came out smooth and the color was awesome. Is there another top coat we could use that would give the protection of the epoxy?

If not I would consider just staining the table and then doing the flood epoxy. I attached pictures of the build.

The logo will be printed directly on the wood top. We will stain the top first and let it cure. Then print the logo on.

[zach VELIVIS]

I have also seen people just applying the epoxy directly onto the top with no other stain etc.. under it. They usually do a sealer epoxy coat then the flood. Is this an option? Any specific brands of epoxy to consider?

[Prashun Patel]

I vote to skip the BLO and shellac. Go straight to the epoxy (and whatever sealer the epoxy manufacturer recommends as the primer).

(Unsolicited advice alert):
Skip the epoxy.
Use an oil-based wiping varnish (thinned polyurethane or Waterlox OSF). I wouldn't bother to build it up too thick.

Count on the table getting dinged and scratched, and properly antiqued naturally.

If in the future it ever gets grungy, it's a quick job to scuff sand it, and apply more Wiping varnish.

[zach VELIVIS]

I just spoke with West Systems tech support. They also agreed to skip the BLO and shellac. What they recommend is what Prashun stated. Either apply the epoxy directly to the table or us a water based dye. They recommend WD Lockwood water base which is a company out of New York. I will be looking into that now to see what they offer.

[Jim Becker]

Wayne, thanks for the explanation. Very helpful and educational. I have little experience with epoxy resin as a "coating" and appreciate knowing a little more now.

[Prashun Patel]

If the dye or BLO is only there to pop the grain, I would experiment on a test piece without the dye. Some epoxies are quite dark amber on their own, and actually have remarkable depth and grain pop ability - unless you mix them directly dye, which can cause them to become opaque. This has been my experience with System3, but West Systems may perform differently.

[Bennett Ostroff]

If the dye or BLO is only there to pop the grain, I would experiment on a test piece without the dye. Some epoxies are quite dark amber on their own, and actually have remarkable depth and grain pop ability - unless you mix them directly dye, which can cause them to become opaque. This has been my experience with System3, but West Systems may perform differently.

I agree. All the epoxy coating finishes I've used will put a very similar, if not indistinguishable, color in the wood as an oil-based varnish. As long as they're longer cure / thin enough to penetrate deeply. FWIW, I like how varnish wears better than an epoxy coating. I'd do varnish, unless you're trying to achieve a smooth bar-like surface.

[Wayne Lomman]

Yes, do what West Systems recommend. They have a bit of experience under their belts.

It's not a good idea to add dye to epoxy to make a toner. Like all 2 pack products, epoxy requires solvent with specific chemistry and other solvents are likely to inhibit the curing mechanism. Cheers

[Mike Null]

I'm with Prashun. I used polyurethane on a red oak kitchen table I built 21 years ago. It has stood the wear of at least twice daily use, without cloths or placemats, very well. I used a golden oak by Minwax to stain it to match my cabinets and it has been an entirely satisfactory surface.

[Jim Becker]

The Epoxy may be more practical for this particular situation because of it going to be located in a Fire House where cleaning things may tend to be more arduous than in a home environment from a chemicals standpoint. Products used in that kind of environment are likely less friendly to varnishes and other finishes that are able to stand up to home type cleaning.

[Steve Schoene]

I've seen a lot of dull, yellowed or crazed epoxy coated table or bar tops. It's definately not a 100 year coating maybe not a 12year coating. And, when it deteriorates epoxy is a bear to remove in order to refinish the top. Why is a shiney finish necessary in a fire house for a bunch of brave, hardworking firemen? I'd give the top a few coats of an oil/varnish mix and expect to do a serious cleanup and redo every year. Way less work in the beginning, moderate extra work annually, but without major redo projects when the epoxy gets ratty.

[Prashun Patel]

Thinking about it more, I second (as if he needs it) Steve's advice.

My work desk is red oak, oil varnished. It is remarkably durable. I expected to have to redo my desk every year, but it is as shiny as it was 5 years ago. By virtue of there being no film, there is really nothing to wear away. Like all OV applications, it's a satin sheen, which means it does not show scratches. It has gotten better looking with time. I've spilled hot coffee on the desk, and put a million cold water glasses on it. Not a single ring.

There is one caveat: the open grain of red oak will gather dirt and patina quickly. So, it CAN look dirty. If I were to do it again, I would apply a dark brown oil based stain after the 2nd OilVarnish application. I would buff off the stain completely, which will leave almost no color in the wood, but will 'glaze' the open grain dark. Then I would continue with the remaining OV coats, to seal that. This effect on red oak can be quite nice. It adds overall (not uniform) color to the entire top, and helps hide the inevitable dirt that may gather.

[robert baccus]

I agree with Jim--poly is designed for gym floors and potty seats and should be limited to those. Behlen's makes a Bar Top Varnish that is really tough but might be poly??

[Prashun Patel]

"poly is designed for gym floors and potty seats and should be limited to those"

Curious: have you used poly on tables? On the ones I've done with it, I find it holds up fine, and can look wonderful if applied properly. I also think in an oil-varnish mix, the choice of varnish is less critical.