Raised panel sanding question

[Rick Alexander]

I'm working on a commission project building a kitchen (I posted a pricing thread about this one a couple of weeks ago). This one will be stained REALLY dark using black cherry stain and seems to show any sanding blemish on the end grain of my raised panels really bad. What do you guys use to better sand that rounded profile on the end grain of the panels? I usually sand with 120 grit and then med scotch pads but that doesn't seem to be enough this time as I'm getting some blotching.

[Bradley Gray]

I would try raising the grain with water and re-sanding.

If that doesn't work, you may need to make a profiled sanding block.

[George Bokros]

I think you need to sand to a grit finer than 120, especially the end grain part of the panels. What wood are you are using?

[Kris Lasure]

Dynabrade raised panel sander. Sand end grain much finer than you do on the rest of parts.

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[Mel Fulks]

You didn't say what you are using to cut the raise. If it's carbide I would switch to Tantung or good high speed steel. Small raises can sometimes be so slick that they need no sanding.

[Martin Wasner]

Dynabrade raised panel sander. Sand end grain much finer than you do on the rest of parts.

372325

Thanks for that. Have a link by chance?

[Martin Wasner]

Found it. linky (http://www.dynabrade.com/dyn10/productdetail.php?egrp=JUEzJUJG&item=57906&esf=JUE2JUJGJUY0&epf=JUE2JUJG&market=&vacuum=&search=)

[Mark Bolton]

If its a super fussy material, and is available, maybe ditch the endgrain and band ply panels with solids (picture frame) and raise only long grain?

[Matt Day]

FYI the dynabrade sander is the 57906 Dynafine Raised Panel Detail Sander. Cost is about $370. Air powered.

[Martin Wasner]

FYI the dynabrade sander is the 57906 Dynafine Raised Panel Detail Sander. Cost is about $370. Air powered.

I just ordered one on Amazon after seeing this thread. $402

We've started running some profiles that are impossible to sand with a regular orbital, so hopefully this is the ticket. Hand sanding does a fine job, but it's not exactly profitable.

Might come in handy when someone decides to smear glue on the panel close to the frame when assembling doors too.

[Mark Bolton]

I just ordered one on Amazon after seeing this thread. $402

We've started running some profiles that are impossible to sand with a regular orbital, so hopefully this is the ticket. Hand sanding does a fine job, but it's not exactly profitable.

Might come in handy when someone decides to smear glue on the panel close to the frame when assembling doors too.


It'll be interesting to hear. Please post back. We have an electric version that is about useless unless the panel caught before sticking. It just seems to beat itself to death getting in close to anything (which is to be expected from any orbital/reciprocating machine). It beats the profile to death on the nose end of the machine and never gets tight in to where its needed (cant imagine a sander that would).

When we get a bad, smeary, glue-up, if its stain grade, it goes in the trash (preceded and followed by yelling).

[Martin Wasner]

It'll be interesting to hear. Please post back. We have an electric version that is about useless unless the panel caught before sticking. It just seems to beat itself to death getting in close to anything (which is to be expected from any orbital/reciprocating machine). It beats the profile to death on the nose end of the machine and never gets tight in to where its needed (cant imagine a sander that would).

When we get a bad, smeary, glue-up, if its stain grade, it goes in the trash (preceded and followed by yelling).


I will follow up on it.

I'm thinking this will work decently because of the tiny orbital pattern. Might not remove much material either and be a real nice paperweight. Might be able to run a lot aggressive paper and get good results though. Things to play with. I only ordered 150g with it. Hopefully it comes with some different grits to try out, but I doubt it.

There's certainly a fine line between not removing material fast enough, or removing it too quickly.

We get a pretty clean cut off of the shaper, cutting with the grain it's almost glossy in most materials, but end grain is always fickle. It's a SAC TS125 shaper and a custom four wing carbide insert head from Dimensions In Tooling. Still needs to be sanded though.

[Mark Bolton]

We are in the same boat with long grain (wish JR would chime in). Natural finish on end grain we try to deal with before its in the sticking. After that Ive just opted to toss it because there is no way to make it right. I think from past reads you dont do a lot of natural (which is our bread and butter). Ive recently changed the feeder on the panel shaper which should help but wont eliminate the problem.

We dont build tons of cabs and almost no residential. But I do pay attention because it comes up on occasion.

[andrew whicker]

I don't know anything, so I'm just asking. Why couldn't you use those sandpaper disks (for rotatory tools) that are a bunch of small pieces of sand paper tied together.


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[Martin Wasner]

We are in the same boat with long grain (wish JR would chime in). Natural finish on end grain we try to deal with before its in the sticking. After that Ive just opted to toss it because there is no way to make it right. I think from past reads you dont do a lot of natural (which is our bread and butter). Ive recently changed the feeder on the panel shaper which should help but wont eliminate the problem.

We dont build tons of cabs and almost no residential. But I do pay attention because it comes up on occasion.

Not much natural. 80-90% paint, the rest is stained. We don't do any finishing in house, so pre-finishing parts would just add to my headaches, even though the finisher is only 10 minutes away.

Get the right rpm and feed rate to get proper cpi and chip loading is the key. Hindsight, I should've gotten one of those DC feeders when I set this shaper up, but they were really new at the time. My four wing is spinning at 4500 I think, but the next speed down was way too slow, and I thought the next speed up was just torching the inserts.
It'd be fun to use a infinitely adjustable feeder and an electro spindle where it's infinitely adjustable too. It'd take a while to collect all the data for which materials like what speeds, but I bet you could drastically improve results. The changes take seconds even doing it manually, and if you are playing with a shaper like that it'd likely be just loading the program.

[Dave Zellers]

...you may need to make a profiled sanding block.

Wow- I'm just now starting to read this thread, and that was my exact first thought and here it is on the first reply.

Now to read the other replies. :)

[Dave Zellers]

What do you guys use to better sand that rounded profile on the end grain of the panels? I usually sand with 120 grit and then med scotch pads but that doesn't seem to be enough this time as I'm getting some blotching.

Are you saying these are not traditional 12º or 15º flat profiles but rather a curved profile raised panel? If that's the case, careful hand sanding up to 220, raising the grain and sand some more might be the way to go, all before assembly of course.

I agree that when you are cutting the panels, a final pass with a sharp cutter that takes off the final 32nd of an inch can eliminate a lot of sanding.

[J.R. Rutter]

I demo'd one of those pneumatic profile sanders for a week and couldn't quite get it to work for me. These days, I just use a small orbit 5" with a soft pad (3M). The 3M discs with lots of tiny holes works well. 180 or 220 grit depending on the wood.

[Martin Wasner]

I demo'd one of those pneumatic profile sanders for a week and couldn't quite get it to work for me. These days, I just use a small orbit 5" with a soft pad (3M). The 3M discs with lots of tiny holes works well. 180 or 220 grit depending on the wood.

What about when you've got a bead, or a flat going to a lip at the edge of the profiles? A regular orbital with a soft pad works fine on a scoop, but I wouldn't do well with the other profiles I make. Even the ogee panel raiser would be tough.

[Rick Alexander]

Are you saying these are not traditional 12º or 15º flat profiles but rather a curved profile raised panel? If that's the case, careful hand sanding up to 220, raising the grain and sand some more might be the way to go, all before assembly of course.

I agree that when you are cutting the panels, a final pass with a sharp cutter that takes off the final 32nd of an inch can eliminate a lot of sanding.

It's the standard Freud Ogee profile panel raiser (carbide). Just getting use to my 3HP shaper with the cutter facing down and even though it will do the cut in one pass I'm seeing I'll have to do a second light pass to get better results like you guys mentioned. I've used my ROS before with mixed results but I hate when you can see the crisp profile altered with sanding you get with a ROS. I'd rather sand by hand than that but that also will mess up that crisp transition line at the corners. I'm wondering if maybe I could make that final pass using a router table with the same profile bit but the speed bumped up a little. I think my shaper cutter is a deeper/different cut however even though I have a Freud router bit in the same profile - probably wouldn't work. I know when I use to do this with my router table the results were cleaner/smoother for sure. This is red oak by the way. I'm going to try it anyway on a test piece before I get to the panels step. I also might could slow the feeder down a little - probably not much - as it's pretty slow now - any slower might burn the cut. We'll see.

I have 22 to do so anything to make this easier would be worth looking into - well other than a $400 air tool.

[Mark Bolton]

Assuming you are raising your panels with a feeder? Perhaps try your final pass with a climb cut at your feeders lowest feed speed. You may be able to get away with very little sanding.

[Martin Wasner]

Assuming you are raising your panels with a feeder? Perhaps try your final pass with a climb cut at your feeders lowest feed speed. You may be able to get away with very little sanding.


I used to have to climb cut when I was doing it on a yellow shaper to get the best results. You can pretty much forget about dust collection doing anything though.


22 isn't bad. Even if you do them by hand you shouldn't have more than a couple hours into doing it that way. It'll be unpleasant though.

I prefer running the cutter above the panel. I don't know if there really is any difference other than your panels need to be spot on for thickness to get a consistent tongue when it's below. If I were running them by hand, I'd probably want it below though.

[Mark Bolton]

I used to have to climb cut when I was doing it on a yellow shaper to get the best results. You can pretty much forget about dust collection doing anything though.

I dont climb cut them very often other than in b*tchy materials. I have a separate dust boot on a floor stand that I can move and position anywhere needed to pick up as much of the material thats thrown out of reach of the fence. We do a lot of dimensioning on the shaper so its often times like a TS in that the cutter is slinging chips out the outboard side. It doesnt get 100% but probably 98. Its really handy when your doing fixtured profile work by hand with no fence or dust shoe whatsoever. You can usually set yourself up with it in a position that shoots all the chips right into the boot.

[J.R. Rutter]

What about when you've got a bead, or a flat going to a lip at the edge of the profiles? A regular orbital with a soft pad works fine on a scoop, but I wouldn't do well with the other profiles I make. Even the ogee panel raiser would be tough.

Beads and such just get a quick swipe with 220. I do Ogees with the ROS. Light touch moving in and out from the edge and then light passes on the flatter sections lengthwise. Once you get some practice, the corners stay crisp.


I dont climb cut them very often other than in b*tchy materials. I have a separate dust boot on a floor stand that I can move and position anywhere needed to pick up as much of the material thats thrown out of reach of the fence. We do a lot of dimensioning on the shaper so its often times like a TS in that the cutter is slinging chips out the outboard side. It doesnt get 100% but probably 98. Its really handy when your doing fixtured profile work by hand with no fence or dust shoe whatsoever. You can usually set yourself up with it in a position that shoots all the chips right into the boot.

I do a style of thick drawer faces with a raised panel profile to match the door panels. Since there can't be edge chipping, I climb cut them in one pass and run a second DC hose like you that has a shroud to fit against the fence and the outlet of the feeder. Gets most chips, 98% seems right.

[Max Neu]

I stopped getting real particular on the end grains,just sand them the same as the long grain.Then we seal the end grains with Sealcoat shellac cut with alcohol (4 parts alcohol,1 part shellac),then scuff before assembly. You will need to experiment a little to find the right ratio to get the right stain penetration depending on the stain you use.Our end grains match the long grains perfectly. I think the added step of sealing the end grains far out weighs tedious sanding and inconsistency of staining raw end grains.