Newbie question: can I replace a stud using pocket holes instead of toe nails?

[Bert McMahan]

So I need to replace four studs around a shower due to some water damage. Reading online shows it's recommended to use 16d nails at an angle. Unfortunately I suck at driving nails, especially ones going into the ceiling in a tight corner!

Is it OK to use some Kreg screws instead of toe nails? It'd be a little more work up front but will be easier to install when I get them into position. I don't have a framing nailer nor do I have much need for one long term, so I'd prefer to just do some pocket holes unless there's a good reason not to.

Thanks for the help.

[Bill Graham]

Yes. Just keep quiet about it so the Nail Police don't hear. ;)

[John K Jordan]

I often use deck screws (3" or so) for toe"nailing" studs. Your pocket hole screws would be awfully fancy! Maybe use walnut or cherry studs? :D

If you do want to drive perfect toenailed nails, you can drill a tight pilot hole first, at least part way through the wood. The nails will go in perfect and pretty every time. You can also drill some angled pilot holes to get deck screws started at the right angle. (I usually start them with a hammer.) For a very tight spot I have used an angle driver head on an drill or impact driver.

The nails or screws don't carry a load and are mostly to keep the stud from shifting until you get the paneling/sheet rock up.

JKJ

[Lee Schierer]

You can use srews to attach studs, just screw them in at an angle like toe nailing. I don't think the Kreg screws are long enough. I would recommend the structural screws sold at the home centers such as the GRK or Spax screws a #8 x 2-1/2 or 3" length. If you are worried about stating the screws at an angle use your Kreg jig to make stater holes.

Whatever you do don't use dry wall screws, they are for holding drywall only.

[Bill Graham]

You can use srews to attach studs, just screw them in at an angle like toe nailing. I don't think the Kreg screws are long enough. I would recommend the structural screws sold at the home centers such as the GRK or Spax screws ihttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259668-What-Just-Happenedn a #8 x 2-1/2 or 3" length. If you are worried about stating the screws at an angle use your Kreg jig to make stater holes.

Whatever you do don't use dry wall screws, they are for holding drywall only.

I totally disagree. Toenailing, end nailing or substituting screws for nails in a vertical load application like the stud-plate connection is only for keeping the members aligned during assembly, the load is vertical and horizontal force at either end is negligible. The fastener in this application is used strictly for alignment, carpet tacks partially driven in would serve as well if they could meet assembly stress(like standing up a framed wall). And that's not an issue in this application.

[lowell holmes]

You might drill pilot holes prior to nailing, then drive the nails in. The task will be simpler.

[Wayne Lomman]

For this application, skew screwing is a good solution. So is pre-drilling and nailing. You are doing a minor repair and you can afford to ignore other forces on a stud.

In general, however, a stud takes compression, tension and racking forces as part of its job within a structure. Resisting these requires a good connection between stud and plate. Building standards specify the minimum requirements these days. Holding the frame together to stand it up is a secondary consideration.

It's worth noting that light timber framing assembled with structural screws will withstand cyclonic winds far greater than nailed frames can withstand. Fiji had started building with screws before their last cyclone and the results are worth the extra effort in high risk areas. Cheers

[Dan Rude]

I used the Kreg HD jig for putting in studs in my basement. The Kreg HD screws are #12 meet structural code. The smaller 2 1/2" #8 or #10 screws to hold a stud straight, will do the job just fine. Dan

[Sam Murdoch]

Just like those recommending using screws at an angle - BUT - my recommendation is to go longer 3-1/2" to 4" rather than shorter. This allows you to start higher up on the stud and leaves much less chance of splitting out the ends. I HATE TOENAILING and don't much care for toe screwing either but these days if I'm just doing light framing, around a window or building a closet, for example, I always use screws - torx drive 3" to 4".

Yes, don't hesitate to bore a pilot hole for even better control. I have to laugh when I do framing - my cabinetmaking/ furniture builder inner man never succumbs to the "carpenter" within me. That's why I use c-clamps and screws and go pretty slowly compared to true "carpenters" but my structures are true, square and plumb and straight - AND the screws make it so that they easily come apart (in case I ever need to correct a mistake). :D

[lowell holmes]

Check this for more information

https://www.bing.com/search?q=toe+nailing+studs&form=EDGTCT&qs=AS&cvid=38e24746870346f6a6f32e8d44e7ebbb&cc=US&setlang=en-US&PC=DCTS

[Tom M King]

"Nail it (or screw it) before it rots." A commonly heard phrase whenever a novice carpenter hesitates.

[Mike Cutler]

So I need to replace four studs around a shower due to some water damage. Reading online shows it's recommended to use 16d nails at an angle. Unfortunately I suck at driving nails, especially ones going into the ceiling in a tight corner!

Is it OK to use some Kreg screws instead of toe nails? It'd be a little more work up front but will be easier to install when I get them into position. I don't have a framing nailer nor do I have much need for one long term, so I'd prefer to just do some pocket holes unless there's a good reason not to.

Thanks for the help.

Brett
A screw can take the place of the nail, just make sure all things are equal, as in length ,and diameter of the fastener.
I would use construction screws instead of drywall screws. Pre-drill your hole and drive your screws home.
The Kreg might be a bit of overkill, but if it helps you drill a better hole, use it.
You can also do a full length "sister" stud, to the rotted studs, if that easier. Sometimes it plays havoc with plumbing though. A sister will "usually' need to be glued as well as fastened, in a load bearing application

[John K Jordan]

...That's why I use c-clamps and screws and go pretty slowly compared to true "carpenters" but my structures are true, square and plumb and straight - AND the screws make it so that they easily come apart (in case I ever need to correct a mistake). :D

It sounds like you work just like me! I use a lot of big clamps and seldom use nails for framing. (I agree with the big screws for most structural framing) I've fixed things with screws that others put together with nails that didn't hold. I even put up all my shop ceiling and wall paneling with screws so I can take down panels if needed. I took one down to run a new circuit when I replaced a 115v lathe with a 230v lathe.

For building and deck construction I generally work by myself and use big c-clamps to hold things like bracing instead of having a helper, then fasten with screws and remove the clamps. This really helps when muscling 16' long 6x6 PT posts into alignment! (I don't do any of this for hire so it saves me a lot of money to work by myself.)

Once I was building a multi-level deck and hired a friend to put up a little 16x16 building for me at the same time. He saw me using the clamps and joked about them. A while later he came over and asked to borrow some clamps. :) Another friend who is a professional home builder watched how I used clamps to pull a twisted 2x12 beam into submission. He told me he bought some clamps after that.

One think I recommend with clamps: I spray mine with bright orange paint so I don't accidentally leave one on the ground.

JKJ

[glenn bradley]

Lots of good info. Depending on the purpose of the stud your fastener should be good quality, not something brittle like drywall screws. Also, longer is not always better if you are going to hit the backing material and it turns out to be concrete. Here's Kreg's info (https://www.kregtool.com/files/newsletters/kregplus/Images/february12/selecting-the-correct-screw.pdf).

[Jim Becker]

Like John, I just use "deck screws" for this purpose. No need to drill for "pocket screws" in this application. They don't need to be pretty since they will be inside the wall. ;)

[Randy Viellenave]

I wish you had built my house... The one square corner in it is the wall I put up. My inner carpenter said a lot of things that cannot be repeated about the builders and their compound angles in the corners.

[Phillip Mitchell]

You guys are overthinking this...just use some 3 or 3 1/2" deck screws and toe-screw them in place of nailing and call it a day.

[Mike Cutler]

You guys are overthinking this...just use some 3 or 3 1/2" deck screws and toe-screw them in place of nailing and call it a day.

Exactly. ;)

[Jim Dwight]

I agree except that I think drywall screws are fine. They are not high grade steel and are not rated for structural use but, as has been stated, this purpose is not structural, it is to locate the stud. I have used 2.5 or 3 inch drywall screws for this many times. I built my kitchen island with 3 inch drywall screws through the top and bottom plates. I wanted to be able to adjust it if the boss didn't like the shape. The top wall holds up a granite bar top including 12 inch steel braces screwed to the top plate. The granite installer liked the screws and said they have seen nails pull out. In this case, my drywall screws do see some load but they also function just fine. I have broken drywall screws driving them in before too. But at the price I continue to use them.

[Sam Murdoch]

I agree except that I think drywall screws are fine. They are not high grade steel and are not rated for structural use but, as has been stated, this purpose is not structural, it is to locate the stud. I have used 2.5 or 3 inch drywall screws for this many times. I built my kitchen island with 3 inch drywall screws through the top and bottom plates. I wanted to be able to adjust it if the boss didn't like the shape. The top wall holds up a granite bar top including 12 inch steel braces screwed to the top plate. The granite installer liked the screws and said they have seen nails pull out. In this case, my drywall screws do see some load but they also function just fine. I have broken drywall screws driving them in before too. But at the price I continue to use them.

Use GRK Torx drive screws or the equivalent and you will never go back to sheetrock screws for other than sheetrock work. I do believe :D.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree except that I think drywall screws are fine. They are not high grade steel and are not rated for structural use but, as has been stated, this purpose is not structural, it is to locate the stud. I have used 2.5 or 3 inch drywall screws for this many times. I built my kitchen island with 3 inch drywall screws through the top and bottom plates. I wanted to be able to adjust it if the boss didn't like the shape. The top wall holds up a granite bar top including 12 inch steel braces screwed to the top plate. The granite installer liked the screws and said they have seen nails pull out. In this case, my drywall screws do see some load but they also function just fine. I have broken drywall screws driving them in before too. But at the price I continue to use them.

I'd fire someone for using drywall screws on structure.

One time a few years ago an employee was told to grab the GRK's and screw a cleat to the wall to set a pick on. He instead used 3 1/2" drywall screws. Four of them sheared off at the wall line when I walked out on the pick. I broke 6 ribs and split my sternum right up the middle.

I fired him.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Drywall screws are for drywall and aren't made for major shear forces....which the original post didn't have, but for other shear applications, please don't use drywall screws.

Edit: Directing this comment and anyone who thinks that drywall screws and structural screws are interchangeable and a cheaper option for shear applications...

[Jim Becker]

A small box of "deck screws" or equivalent isn't very expensive and is a good investment when nailing isn't desired or practical. I use a manual hammer as minimally as possible because of hand/wrist pain, so when the home improvement project is too small to break out the pneumatic nailer, I use appropriate screws. A good example is when I renovated my older daughter's bathroom last year, installing a larger shower and a separate wall. No nails. All screws.