Neander starter tools

[Scott Winter]

Hey all,

Right now I have been assembling my tool collection to build furniture around the house, and to hopefully make a little money to help offset the cost of tools/materials. Essentially, I have my normal 9-5 job, but would like to do woodworking as a hobby/weekend project type stuff.

I've yet to build anything substantial because I don't really have quality enough tools to do fine woodworking. It is mostly bargain stuff off of Amazon that is almost not even worth the materials they're made out of!

I am going to be putting up a partition wall in my finished basement that will give me an isolated work space of 8' x 17'. I would really like to begin investing into quality tools that make better quality builds, and I would like to get some of the experts here to give me tips on what I should start with. I am a hybrid woodworker that'll be mainly using a table saw, cordless drills, drill press, and router table as my primary electric tools. I would like to stick with hand tools for the planing/jointing, mortise/tenon, dovetails, etc (basically everything else). Here is the list of what I was thinking of getting, so let me know if I missed anything or if you think I should go in a different direction...

Chisels - Stanley Sweethearts (already own)
Dovetail saw - Veritas Fine Cut $70
Crosscut saw - Veritas carcass saw $80
#5 1/2 - Woodriver $200
#7 - Woodriver $310

[Nicholas Lawrence]

No experience with the woodriver planes, so will not comment there. I would suggest the Veritas standard dovetail saw over the fine cut.

[Daniel O'Connell]

If you are going to buy new planes, I would recommend getting Veritas ones. Maybe the low angle jack and jointer. They are similar in price to wood river and probably nicer.

If you want stanley style, and money is an issue, you should be able to find pretty good used ones for far less than what you'll pay here. My #7's have been in the $40-60 range in general, but you may have to spend more if you are in a rush.

[Phil Mueller]

If you don't already have these, I'd add to your list a low angle block plane, a couple of marking gauges, a mortise chisel (1/4"), mallet, and perhaps a shoulder plane.

[Stew Denton]

Scott,

I am with Daniel, if you aren't in a hurry, you can find old Stanley planes for a lot less money than what you list for the Woodriver planes. They will probably need a little tune up, but if you just get them to good user condition, it won't take a lot of time to tune them up.

Sometimes if you hit the right garage sale, or flea market you can buy one for $10 to $35, and if you buy a Stanley Bailey made between 1910 and 1930 in restorable condition, you can't go too far wrong. Restored to good user condition they are superb planes.

You will need to study up on the old Stanley planes, however, to know what you are looking at. To do that type in "Stanley Bailey Type Study." RexMill is one of the best in my view.

Avoid ones with cracks in the body, frog, or lever cap. A bit of rust is OK, but make sure it is not rusted to the point that you can't easily remove all the screws. Avoid deep pitting, especially on the iron. There are several posts on this site, if you do a search on restoring the Older Planes.

Parts can be found on that auction site, but be warned, if the plane needs more than one part, the parts can ruin the bargain you got on the original deal, because parts can be too expensive.

Regards,

Stew

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth, I am on the beginner end of the spectrum and have been working with hand tools for only a couple years. I own and regularly use Woodriver, Veritas and Lie Nielson. Frankly, I like the Woodriver stuff. No, their stuff is not as good as Veritas or Lie Nielson - my opinion. Biggest gripe is the quality of the iron. I find there to be a noticable difference between Woodriver and Lie Nielson A2 and even more with Veritas PM V-11 (I really like this stuff). If you can pickup the Woodriver planes on their 20% off sale (last month if I recall correctly) they are one heck of a bargain, iron and all. If you get them, I don't think you will regret it. They are a solid value and work well. Your list looks good to my eyes. I use the veritas saws every day - again good saws solid value.

[Scott Winter]

You guys rock! I will take a look at seeing what Stanley's I can pickup. I live in a town with one of the largest Amish populations, so I am sure I could find some classic planes at local antique shops or garage sales.

I appreciate all of the great advice and tips.

[Daniel O'Connell]

Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth, I am on the beginner end of the spectrum and have been working with hand tools for only a couple years. I own and regularly use Woodriver, Veritas and Lie Nielson. Frankly, I like the Woodriver stuff. No, their stuff is not as good as Veritas or Lie Nielson - my opinion. Biggest gripe is the quality of the iron. I find there to be a noticable difference between Woodriver and Lie Nielson A2 and even more with Veritas PM V-11 (I really like this stuff). If you can pickup the Woodriver planes on their 20% off sale (last month if I recall correctly) they are one heck of a bargain, iron and all. If you get them, I don't think you will regret it. They are a solid value and work well. Your list looks good to my eyes. I use the veritas saws every day - again good saws solid value.

Agreed, but given that a veritas low angle jack with PM V-11 is only $257 or so. For a only plane I own plane I would probably take low angle and PM V-11 for $50-70 more. I'd probably even strongly consider passing on a jointer for a while if budget was an issue, you can get by for quite a while with just a good jack.

That said almost all of my planes are used stanley, millers falls, or union that I've picked up at flea markets and estate sales. And that is generally my preference: I can get 5-6 different good planes with my limited dollars that way

[steven c newman]

You are welcome to come over to Bellefontaine, OH, and visit my Dungeon Shop. You are free to try any and all hand tools in the shop.....including both Stanley and Millers Falls hand planes. Handsaws, chisels, drills.....whatever. I tuned all up into very good users. PM for details......

Always ready to pay forward as best as I can. (IF you do come over, bring along a camera...)

#3 bench plane: Millers Falls No. 8
#4 bench plane: Both Stanley, and Millers Falls
#5 Jack planes: Again, Stanley and Millers Falls
There is a #5-1/4, a #5-1/2, a #6c, two #7s and a #8

Handsaws: Atkins, Disstons, and a Richardson Brothers...crosscut and rip
Mitre Box: have several, main one is a Langdon #75.

Just a sample.....

[Robert Hazelwood]

I'll just stick with bench planes here, because if you plan to joint and thickness by hand these will be the tools you may spend the most time with. You will want at least 3 planes: a jack plane, try plane, and a smoothing plane. I don't think it's a good idea to try to combine any of those roles into one tool.

The jack plane is for roughing cuts- taking out high spots and twist, removing unwanted thickness, etc. It needs a heavily cambered cutting edge. This plane does not need to be as finely tuned as the other two, so you can go with a cheaper or unrefined tool. It is usually a medium length plane, about 14 inches, like a #5. I would not get a 5-1\2 for a jack plane, the extra width is not useful and they are more expensive, and harder to find used. Just get a regular #5, or consider a transitional or a traditional wooden jack plane. I use an old Sargent transitional I found at a flea market for $10. I would not be looking at a new plane for this role, there are too many old tools in good enough shape that can be had for cheap.

The try plane is longer (22-24) inches and is used after the jack plane, taking a medium to heavy shaving and making faces and edges perfectly flat, with minimal or no tearout. This is probably the most important tool for dimensioning wood by hand. A #7 or #8 will work for this (a 6 could as well, though a bit short). I use an old English wooden try plane that I love...wooden planes glide over the wood a bit easier than metal. In any case, this is a tool you should be more selective about than the jack...you don't want to buy a basketcase. It can be a lot of work to fix an out of flat sole on a long metal plane. So it may make sense to buy this one new, or pay more for a known good used plane.

The smoothing plane is for final finishing of a surface, removing any remaining tearout, flattening/jointing small parts. It is usually a short plane (#3, #4, or #4-1\2) set for a thin shaving. The thin shavings require more accuracy in the sole and frog, so this plane needs to be at the highest level of tune. So, it does make sense to get a new "premium" plane, if you can afford it, but since these planes are small it is feasible to tune up an old vintage plane into a very nice tool...much easier than on a #7 or 8. Mine is a Lie-Nielsen #4. I like it a lot, but did not like the A2 blade (too chippy), so I replaced it with a Hock O1 blade, which is very nice. Most people seem happy with the LN A2 blades though, so keep that in mind. A vintage Bailey or Bedrock will make a nice smoother as well. Veritas and Wood River are also very good, I'm sure.

It is sometimes nice to have a fourth plane for jointing edges on long boards. I use an old #8, for example. The try plane can do this job however, and I would hold off on getting a dedicated jointer plane until you've used the try plane a lot. It's another plane that needs to be in very good tune, and they aren't cheap unless you luck out with an old one.

For all of these planes, I recommend standard 45° angle bevel down designs (like a typical Bailey) with a chipbreaker. This arrangement has the most versatility for the least amount of fuss and expense (no changing blades to plane a different board, etc). Learn to use the chipbreaker to control tearout with all three planes- it takes some practice and experimentation but has a big payoff - the ability to take heavy shavings without tearout makes hand-dimensioning much less of a burden. There are reams of information about it if you search this forum.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Scott and welcome to the Creek.

You will spend a lot less on tools if you can purchase good previously owned tools at a good price.

Trying to pick planes for someone else is impossible. What works for me isn't going to necessarily be the combination that works for you. If you work on larger projects, a #5-1/2 can be useful. If you work a lot of rough lumber a #5 or even a #5-1/4 may be of more use for the scrub work of getting rid of saw marks and high spots. Other considerations are the size of the user. Larger handed folks might prefer a big smoother like a #4-1/2, a jack like the 5-1/2 and the #8 for a jointer. Otherwise the common combination is #4, #5 & a #7.

What all these numbers mean can be found at another site:

http://www.supertool.com

This is the 'front page' of the site. You will want to navigate to the Blood & Gore page to bookmark. If you want to learn about tools in general, subscribe to his monthly tool list. He sells tools, but much of my knowledge of different tools comes from reading and looking at the pictures on his monthly for sale list.

Someone mentioned Johny Kleso's site, Rexmill. It might be worth archiving his site if you can. Mr. Kleso posted in the SMC Classifieds about selling all of his old tools and such.

http://www.rexmill.com/planes101/typing/typing.htm

This is a study of the changes over the years in the manufacturing of Stanley/Bailey planes.

Then there is the 'secret' archives here on SMC:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

This is another treasure trove of knowledge.

Oh, one of the first planes a person should get is a low angle block plane. If your hand is at all on the large size you may consider a #65 type plane. For me this is one of my favorite planes even though my hands are not large. One reason is it can be used as a shooting plane and the extra width helps. Other wise a #60 type plane is a good choice. The low angle block plane is a very handy plane for end grain clean up and breaking sharp corners on milled work. They are also useful in the fitting of some joinery and molding.

BTW, these kinds of decisions are a bit difficult for me so to make it easier my system is to have at least one of each size plane.

372138

That isn't all of them. It might be time to start thinning the heard.

jtk

[ken hatch]

BTW, these kinds of decisions are a bit difficult for me so to make it easier my system is to have at least one of each size plane.

372138

That isn't all of them. It might be time to start thinning the heard.

jtk

Jim,

I like your style. BTW it is a sickness. My name is Jim, I'm a......

The OP didn't mention if he will prep stock with machines or not. Nor did he mention his sharpening kit. Those two factors have more to do with what planes to get than any other. Grinder with water stones will allow a different kit than no grinder with oil stones as does machine prep.

ken

ken

[Adam Schultz]

I am a beginner, so I was thinking of the things I've purchased that I love and use all the time, and it brought to mind my square. I bought the Veritas 6 inch double square and I love it and use it every time I go down to the bench.

[William Fretwell]

The electric tools alone will fill your space. The table saw could take almost the full width. Perhaps the 8x17' space is just for hand tools?
Buying good old tools can happen but I think the Amish will have cleared out the good old ones already. It all about timing; getting lucky can take far too long in my area.
Buying new works if you buy the gems. You will never regret the money. So my 2 cents is the Lee Valley large shoulder plane. I have the old steel, it holds a really sharp edge. Fancy steel is wasted as it's not as sharp and you are tuning not planing many board feet.

As for making money.........as a beginner with no client list or furniture picture collection.........it's just an excuse to buy tools. Just ask the very best on here how 'easy' it is to make money working wood. I can make money designing and building a complete pharmacy. That is about a LOT of sheet goods, melamine, hardware, and a ton of space. Real wood is delegated to door, window trim and skirting boards. That's all they will pay for.

I've designed and built other stuff too but people mostly won't pay for it. Blame Ikea?

Round here lot's of Amish get into wood work because they are Amish, not because they can work wood!

[Jim Koepke]

I am a beginner, so I was thinking of the things I've purchased that I love and use all the time, and it brought to mind my square.

My small try square almost lives on my bench. Other tools that are always used include one of my marking knives and a wheel gauge. Another is a small paint brush with the bristles shortened. This is used to knock the dust and shavings off of a plane after it is used. My pencils are also always around. There is one regular #1 pencil. For most a #2 would be fine. Next are two carpenter pencils. One has a blunt point produced by a carpenter's pencil sharpener the other has its lead shaved to a fine edge for following lines scribed by a marking gauge.

jtk

[Bill McNiel]

Scott,
Welcome to the Creek, joining here is a great place to start.

I have a somewhat different view from some on the rehabbing of old planes, I believe it is a better exercise for the intermediate folks. A beginner rarely knows/understands what the real standards the end product should perform to, I recommend that you buy affordable quality to start with, learn to use a couple of these planes and then try rehabbing an older Stanley. Lee Valley has a "Starter Set" consisting of: LA Block, Small BU Smoother and LA Jack for about the same money as your 2 WoodRiver planes (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=74187&cat=1,41182). These three planes will allow you to do a significant amount of work right away for between $530 (O1 iron) and $569 (PMV 11 iron) and you will never out grow them or their usefulness.

LV also has a nice set of three joinery saws at a good price.

Regards - Bill

[steven c newman]

Yep...always fun to spend other peoples' money......

[Scott Winter]

You are welcome to come over to Bellefontaine, OH, and visit my Dungeon Shop. You are free to try any and all hand tools in the shop.....including both Stanley and Millers Falls hand planes. Handsaws, chisels, drills.....whatever. I tuned all up into very good users. PM for details......


I would love to take you up on that offer, but it is about an 8 hour drive from my house just west of Philadelphia!




The OP didn't mention if he will prep stock with machines or not. Nor did he mention his sharpening kit. Those two factors have more to do with what planes to get than any other. Grinder with water stones will allow a different kit than no grinder with oil stones as does machine prep.

ken

ken

I would be prepping my stock by hand, and my sharpening kit is currently a set of 3 diamond stones (300 grit > 1200 grit) which has served me well thus far.

[Jim Koepke]

I would be prepping my stock by hand, and my sharpening kit is currently a set of 3 diamond stones (300 grit > 1200 grit) which has served me well thus far.

You may want to invest in more sharpening equipment. Most of the time when my blades need attention my starting point is a 1000 grit stone. This will take care of small nicks and dulled edges. In your case a higher grit stone and a stropping set up may be all that is needed.

Of course it seems there are as many different ways to sharpness as there are people trying to obtain a sharp edge.

My shop is unheated. In the winter my sharpening is done on oilstones. In the warmer months my sharpening is done with water stones. They can both produce a sharp edge, they are just a bit different in the process.

jtk

[Scott Winter]

You may want to invest in more sharpening equipment. Most of the time when my blades need attention my starting point is a 1000 grit stone. This will take care of small nicks and dulled edges. In your case a higher grit stone and a stropping set up may be all that is needed.

Of course it seems there are as many different ways to sharpness as there are people trying to obtain a sharp edge.

My shop is unheated. In the winter my sharpening is done on oilstones. In the warmer months my sharpening is done with water stones. They can both produce a sharp edge, they are just a bit different in the process.

jtk

Thanks Jim! Forgot to mention that I also use a strop.

Reason I went with these stones is because I've gotten most of my knowledge from Paul Sellers who uses a similar type of stone/grit as the ones I purchased. I've also been watching Rob Cosman a bunch too, and he uses a 1k grit diamond stone and a 6k + 16k water stone. I may invest in a 6k water stone to see how much of a difference it makes.

[Phillip Mitchell]

1200 grit waterstone is usually where I start with my normal sharpening procedure, unless I'm re-establishing a bevel, which will be with a slow speed grinder or a 220 grit diamond stone. Paul Sellers does a great service for getting people starting into woodworking and realizing that they don't need all the gadgets and expensive tools to build stuff, but you will almost certainly notice a difference if you finish with a higher grit stone (8k is a good finishing stone.) . Honing guides can also be helpful for certain tools for beginners (and experienced folks alike.)

Also, if i had limited budget and was starting fresh with hand planes I would wait on the #7 jointer plane for a bit. I would get a low angle, adjustable mouth block plane (the LN 60 1/2 is totally worth the money), a #4 sized smoother, and a 5 or 5 1/2 sized jack. I have a 5 1/2 that I like and use all the time and it can certainly do the work of a jointer 90% of the time with a straight iron. I would get a couple of different iron/chipbreaker setups for both the smoother and the jack. One setup with a heavily cambered grind for scrubbing away rough stock and heavy material removal and another setup for finer, lighter, finishing cuts.

Trying to refurb and tune up old Stanleys as a beginner may prove to be frustrating, but with research, patience and persistence, it can provide you will a solid foundation of hand plane knowledge and potentially help your wallet. It will be a steeper learning curve than spending the money on new, high quality planes. I'd personally choose between Veritas and LN only for new planes, but that's just me.

[Jim Koepke]

(edit)
Trying to refurb and tune up old Stanleys as a beginner may prove to be frustrating, but with research, patience and persistence, it can provide you will a solid foundation of hand plane knowledge and potentially help your wallet. It will be a steeper learning curve than spending the money on new, high quality planes. I'd personally choose between Veritas and LN only for new planes, but that's just me.

My feeling is this is likely dependent on one's familiarity with working on mechanical things. My whole life has been taking things apart and putting them back together. Someone who is uncomfortable changing the oil in their car might have a totally different experience than someone like me who had no qualms about pulling the engine out of his car and rebuilding it at home.

If a person doesn't have the experience with mechanical things or a friend who is willing to help, then maybe it would be best to purchase something that is supposed to work right out of the box. Someone with a bit of experience will likely benefit from rehabilitating an old plane to learn the ins and outs of setting up a plane.

jtk

[sean contenti]

My feeling is this is likely dependent on one's familiarity with working on mechanical things.

Undoubtedly.

Another piece of that is knowing what the tool feels like when it's actually working well - and if someone is coming at it totally cold, they won't necessarily be able to tell if they've gotten the plane all the way back to good working order, or or only partially - even if they're the type to be confident diving right in on the rehab.

That's where starting with a well performing plane comes in. If you've got the baseline of "yeah, this is what a plane feels like when it's running sweetly", then the rehab work you put into that second, or third, or Xth plane is going to be that much more successful.

EDIT - Looks like Bill, above, said pretty much exactly what I just did. Oops. Gotta remember to read the whole thread next time...

[steven c newman]

There is one alternative to this L-N, LV sales pitch.......there are refurbished planes out there, by reputable sellers. The tools have been restored to when they were new....and are usually ready to preform right out of the mailing box. Might ask around, and see who provides such restored tools.....

[Joe A Faulkner]

What do you have for work holding? If you don't have one, I'd suggest a work bench should be one of your first projects. It will make dovetailing, planing, joinery experience with hand tools much more satisfying if you have a sturdy bench and some work holding options.

[Scott Winter]

What do you have for work holding? If you don't have one, I'd suggest a work bench should be one of your first projects. It will make dovetailing, planing, joinery experience with hand tools much more satisfying if you have a sturdy bench and some work holding options.

Right now I have a 22"x60" workbench that I made out of construction grade 2x4 & 2x6 with two laminated sheets of 3/4" plywood for a work surface. It works "ok" for now, plus it only cost a total of $45.

[Jim Koepke]

Undoubtedly.

Another piece of that is knowing what the tool feels like when it's actually working well - and if someone is coming at it totally cold, they won't necessarily be able to tell if they've gotten the plane all the way back to good working order, or or only partially - even if they're the type to be confident diving right in on the rehab.

That's where starting with a well performing plane comes in. If you've got the baseline of "yeah, this is what a plane feels like when it's running sweetly", then the rehab work you put into that second, or third, or Xth plane is going to be that much more successful.

EDIT - Looks like Bill, above, said pretty much exactly what I just did. Oops. Gotta remember to read the whole thread next time...

Getting the feel of a well tuned plane is a bit more than opening a box and go. Scott mentioned something about his location that lets me know he wouldn't be able to drop into my shop and try a few planes. Steven made the offer and is still a bit of a drive. Maybe someone closer will offer or he may meet someone who can mentor him on using a plane.

One of my reasons for suggesting a quality block plane first is they are the lowest cost of the premium planes. They are also a bit easier to set up and get results.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Some good advice here. Let me offer some of my own...

I started down the path of all Neander woodworking, but my limited free time led me to a mixed approach like you are undertaking. I have lots of hand tools I rarely use, including jack and jointer planes. Consider adding a lunchbox thickness planer to your complement of power tools. It makes quick work of thicknessing rough cut stock.

If I had it to do all over again, I would focus my initial purchases on a smoother and tools to make joinery. Since you already have chisels, I'd suggest:

A #4 Smoother. Buy a good one. I've refurbed a few and they work well, but I would have been time and money ahead just buying a Lie-Nielsen.
A #80 cabinet scraper. Cheap and very useful.
A #60 1/2 Low Angle Block plane - Another vote for Lie-Nielsen. I've refurbed several Stanleys and my LN 60 1/2 smokes them all.
A Medium Shoulder plane or Rabbet Block Plane. I've found these useful for Mortise and Tenon joinery. I have the Veritas (Lee Valley) version of the Shoulder plane.
A good Dovetail Saw (rip) and companion Carcass Saw (Crosscut). I have multiple examples of each. Most are antiques that I bought cheap and refurbished. All work very well. When I want to get precise I pull down my LN versions.

Above all, get yourself a sharpening jig and a good set of sharpening media. There are lots of choices. Do a forum search for sharpening and you'll see! Once you really learn how to sharpen you'll get 100% out of your edge tools. Dull tools are no fun to use.

[William Fretwell]

Right now I have a 22"x60" workbench that I made out of construction grade 2x4 & 2x6 with two laminated sheets of 3/4" plywood for a work surface. It works "ok" for now, plus it only cost a total of $45.

Building your own bench reduces the cost substantially and you have to start somewhere. Look at your total budget for the next 3 years and try to decide how much the most important tool in your workshop is worth. Dog holes, hold downs and vises on a laser beam flat bench make your life much easier and your work more accurate. Many on here will attest to that.

[Scott Winter]

All,

I really appreciate all of the advice I've received thus far. I think I have narrowed down what I'm going to start off with.

LN scrub plane
LN #62
LN #4 or #5 (this is still up for debate, but I'm leaning towards the #4 just because I'll have the size already with the 60 1/2)
LN 3/4" Shoulder Plane
LN Router Plane
Veritas Dovetail & carcass saw
Going to pickup a 4000/8000 wet stone to go along with my current diamond plates

That's roughly $1300 worth of new tools which isn't too terrible, but I will likely see what I can find used to save a few hundred bucks overall. I really do appreciate everyone's input!!!

[Scott Winter]

Building your own bench reduces the cost substantially and you have to start somewhere. Look at your total budget for the next 3 years and try to decide how much the most important tool in your workshop is worth. Dog holes, hold downs and vises on a laser beam flat bench make your life much easier and your work more accurate. Many on here will attest to that.

I definitely think a new bench will be high on the priority list once I get the framing done in my basement for the new shop. The one I have now will be decent enough to get me by, but might end up being an out-feed table for my table saw.

[steven c newman]

Scott; go to Timetestedtools......the fellow that runs the site is also a vintage plane restorer, and seller......very good planes, very good prices....

[Scott Winter]

Scott; go to Timetestedtools......the fellow that runs the site is also a vintage plane restorer, and seller......very good planes, very good prices....

Great link! Thanks for this. There looks to be some very solid Stanley's on there right now.

[William Fretwell]

I definitely think a new bench will be high on the priority list once I get the framing done in my basement for the new shop. The one I have now will be decent enough to get me by, but might end up being an out-feed table for my table saw.

A few coats of varnish and some furniture wax will make it an excellent out-feed table. Add a shelf for wood storage to give it some weight, add another shelf for 'stuff'.

[Joe A Faulkner]

You can do a lot with the bench you have. C clamps, f clamps, pistol grip clamps. And scraps can be deployed for work holding. Does your bench have any type of face vice. That or a moxon would come in handy for dove tailing. Usually some decent used 7” or 9” vices can be found on Craigslist. Or you can buy some hardware and make one with a screw from LV.