Paul Sellers screwed up...a big PR blunder damaging his hardearned reputation [Archive]

Simon MacGowen

11-23-2017, 10:07 AM

No one educates hand tool woodworkers like him as his teaching skills are second to none. But his recent giveaway campaign that requires people to give up their rights to make comments on the youtube channel to a third-party company(?) is a disaster in the making.

The steps to enter into his draw are unnecessarily complicated (you have to have a youtube account; open one if you dont; subscribe; answer a question; watch his video if you dont know the answer (ha! more views for him!); allow someone to comment on your behalf...). I dont know what else you need to do to enter because I never completed the steps.

All these for a Paul Sellers's signed #4?! Thank you very much; I won't fall for it.

The draw requires you to subscribe to his channel, meaning the exercise is another attempt to boast his subscriptions. What an irony that he is celebrating his 250,000 subscriptions with this giveaway!

Paul, if you are reading this, please scrap your draw and start it over. Just a simple draw: an email address and a simple math question, and NO youtube subscriptions or giving up any rights. You are risking your reputation as a woodworker, teacher and decent person. Why risk it all on just adding a few thousands of new subscribers to your account? There are many better and legitimate ways to make money for you!

Whoever in his crew organized and set up this entry system has done Paul a big disservice (Paul is not a technologically-trained person). Still the buck stops at Paul's desk.

Simon

Nathan Johnson

11-23-2017, 10:33 AM

It would seem logical to me that a giveaway item celebrating the subscriptions actually go to a subscriber. I mean, that's the whole point, right?
I don't know about the third party comment thing you're referring to...and won't as I don't need the plane and won't enter the contest...but perhaps it is a molehill that appears as a mountain to you.

If I'm missing some piece of this I'll gladly adjust my thoughts and feelings on it.

Simon MacGowen

11-23-2017, 10:48 AM

Someone elsewhere said better than I about what a person entering the draw is giving up: "More importantly, you are essentially giving Gleam, a marketing company, a full access to your [youtube] data, even the right to post comments in your name."

In other words, you are not just subscribing his channel when you subscribe, as part of the process to complete the entry, you have to agree to assign such right to Gleam. You can't control how Gleam will use your data or the right to comment given to it.

Simon

steven c newman

11-23-2017, 10:50 AM

Been subscribed to his Blog for quite a while....and have posted a few comments on it.

Have enough Stanley No. 4s in the till......

glenn bradley

11-23-2017, 11:03 AM

The generations that have never known life without the internet assume it is a beneficial utility. We lost the bulk of that in the early 2000's when dot-coms discovered it as a financial engine. Presenting this stuff is not free. However, folks are (for better or worse) allowed to freely present just about whatever they want and however they want to.

One's choice to participate or not, is their own. Take my words with a grain of salt. "Free" offers that cost me information or demographics are items I pass on; I have never had a My Space, Facebook, twitter, etc. account as the benefit is not worth the cost to me. For quality woodworking forums and resources, the cost is justified for me. Others love all the social networking venues and the cost is reasonable to them. Rock on.

Hasin Haroon

11-23-2017, 11:06 AM

Jim Koepke

11-23-2017, 11:37 AM

Assign the right to use my name to comment any way they might choose?

I was born in the morning, but it wasn't this morning.

jtk

Mark Blatter

11-23-2017, 11:42 AM

Every time I see thoughts, a thread, or comments on this issue, the idea of privacy and giving it up, I am reminded of this quote by Sam Seaborn.

Sam Seaborn (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000507/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): 'It's not just about abortion, it's about the next 20 years. In the '20s and '30s it was the role of government. '50s and '60s it was civil rights. The next two decades are going to be privacy. I'm talking about the Internet. I'm talking about cell phones. I'm talking about health records and who's gay and who's not. And moreover, in a country born on the will to be free, what could be more fundamental than this?'

In today's world, people willingly give up their privacy in a search for 'free' stuff, for fame or something close to it. I do my best not to, though at times have been sucked in. I see the world today moving closer to many aspects of the Truman Show, but were we are all Truman. Some, many in fact, are comfortable with friends, neighbors, the guy down the street, and every company or government agency knowing all about them. I am not and yes, it is a personal choice.

Simon MacGowen

11-23-2017, 11:50 AM

Hi Simon,

I don't think it's as big of a deal as you make it out to be. I entered for the competition, as Paul Sellers is a woodworker I greatly respect and would love to own his plane. For the youtube bit, it makes sense that his subscribers would be the only ones eligible for the prize, as it's a giveaway celebrating 250K YouTube subscribers. So it makes sense that you would have to subscribe first. As for the third party Gleam aspect, the permissions are similar to those asked for by Android and Iphone apps. I wasn't comfortable with some of the permissions required, so I didn't enter for the two extra entries. I don't find it outrageous though - if the 2 extra entries are worth the risk to you, go for it, if not, just stick to the one. If you can't be bothered to make a YouTube account, or subscribe to his account, don't enter. But I respect him for everything he does for hand-tool woodworking, and hardly think this is a huge PR blunder.

The subscription part isn't what my beef is about which can be unsubscribed easily if one wishes to after entering the draw. It is the complexity to complete the draw. It was not clear anywhere in the process that one did not have to complete all the steps as you point out here. There was no explanation about Gleam in the process. You may know about what you are giving up as you explain here, but most don't.

In fact, I received an email from his company telling me I still had two outstanding steps to complete after I aborted answering the skill question (drill bit).

Check out his blog about what other people -- supposedly his fan base -- are saying about this. Unlike his usual style, he is not responding to those frank comments. He is a woodworker and not a marketing prof; i can understand why he did not foresee how it could go wrong.

Simon

Rush Paul

11-23-2017, 1:14 PM

Agree they messed up on the design of this giveaway. Seems like good intentions, but not thought through. Here is the "Team Paul" reply to the criticisms from a few hours ago. Still not fully thinking through the issue they've stirred up:

Paul Sellers (https://www.youtube.com/user/PaulSellersWoodwork)4 hours ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz7_npQfrk8&lc=Ugz64NRLCKap4E5Fr2d4AaABAg)

We would like to thank everyone for support and positive feedback with regard to our first giveaway. We understand the feedback some of you have given about not wanting to give permissions on your account to the third party selector, Gleam. We don’t feel is fair at this point in time to make any considerable changes with regards to the competition steps as we would like to keep it fair for all future entries in this prize draw. However, in any future giveaways, we will avoid using the aspects of the selector that require giving extra permissions. - Team Paul -

Frederick Skelly

11-23-2017, 1:33 PM

Must be my day to be Debbie Downer. But it seems pretty straight forward to me: If you don't like the terms, don't play. (I won't.) And I honestly don't care if it tarnishes his reputation. That's his problem to deal with. Don't get me wrong, I like Mr. Sellers a lot and I'm awed by his skills. But ....

YMMV, of course. ;)
Fred

Simon MacGowen

11-23-2017, 1:58 PM

Agree they messed up on the design of this giveaway. Seems like good intentions, but not thought through. Here is the "Team Paul" reply to the criticisms from a few hours ago. Still not fully thinking through the issue they've stirred up:

Good to know. It shows Paul and his team do listen to their audiences and don't stop learning.

Simon

Dave Lehnert

11-23-2017, 2:21 PM

His playpen, his rules I guess.

Simon MacGowen

11-23-2017, 2:31 PM

Don't think it is anything to get bent out of shape about. His playpen, his rules. If One don't like it, Move on.

Doesn't this kind of reasoning apply to everything under the sun?

If a customer was ripped off by a telecom deal, the telecom could use the SAME defense to brush off its criticism
If a tool maker sold a bad product, it could give the poor buyer when he or she complained exactly the same reply: Our terms.
If an airline booted out a passenger from the plane, it could handily point to the small print on the back of the ticket to defend its action. Our rules...that was until it was on the news.

It is too easy and convenient to say move on if you don't like the rules, the company, etc. A lot of big companies (too many to name) are exactly relying on ordinary people to use this kind of logic to think so they can continue their business malpractices. These companies have the silent majority to thank for.

Move on, I would -- but only after I have had a chance to point out where it was wrong.

Simon

Hasin Haroon

11-23-2017, 3:26 PM

Doesn't this kind of reasoning apply to everything under the sun?

If a customer was ripped off by a telecom deal, the telecom could use the SAME defense to brush off its criticism
If a tool maker sold a bad product, it could give the poor buyer when he or she complained exactly the same reply: Our terms.
If an airline booted out a passenger from the plane, it could handily point to the small print on the back of the ticket to defend its action. Our rules...that was until it was on the news.

It is too easy and convenient to say move on if you don't like the rules, the company, etc. A lot of big companies (too many to name) are exactly relying on ordinary people to use this kind of logic to think so they can continue their business malpractices. These companies have the silent majority to thank for.

Move on, I would -- but only after I have had a chance to point out where it was wrong.

Simon

Simon, all your examples involve a customer paying the service/goods provider, not free content provided by someone on youtube. If you paid money to enter the giveaway, your examples would apply...in this case it's a little off.

Simon MacGowen

11-23-2017, 4:19 PM

Simon, all your examples involve a customer paying the service/goods provider, not free content provided by someone on youtube. If you paid money to enter the giveaway, your examples would apply...in this case it's a little off.

Your observation is valid. I was just trying to put across the point that the silent majority have a lot of influence (to change things) but they let it unused, and hence many businesses can get away with their questionable and in some cases unethical behaviors.

Simon

John Schtrumpf

11-24-2017, 2:46 AM

Interesting discussion about giving away information. That is why at LeeValley.com, I don't see the youtube videos in the product popup video windows. I have tracking protection turned on in Internet Explorer, which then blocks the loading of a youtube api script.

John Lanciani

11-24-2017, 8:09 AM

Rule #1 of the modern day internet; if you are not the customer, you are the product. The internet as we know it today would not exist if people had not figured out how to monetize every transaction. Somebody has to pay the bills...

Shawn Pixley

11-24-2017, 10:29 AM

The subscription part isn't what my beef is about which can be unsubscribed easily if one wishes to after entering the draw. It is the complexity to complete the draw. It was not clear anywhere in the process that one did not have to complete all the steps as you point out here. There was no explanation about Gleam in the process. You may know about what you are giving up as you explain here, but most don't.

In fact, I received an email from his company telling me I still had two outstanding steps to complete after I aborted answering the skill question (drill bit).

Check out his blog about what other people -- supposedly his fan base -- are saying about this. Unlike his usual style, he is not responding to those frank comments. He is a woodworker and not a marketing prof; i can understand why he did not foresee how it could go wrong.

Simon

Vote with your feet. If you don’t like it, don’t play.

Simon MacGowen

11-24-2017, 11:30 AM

Vote with your feet. If you don’t like it, don’t play.

I didn't...

For those who did and wanted to remove the Gleam from accessing your youtube (did you know what you have given up? See below after the link), follow the instructions given in this link (as submitted and posted in Paul Sellers' blog post): https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=-M5UYQ2i0F4

Access given to: gleam.io

Has access to:

YouTube
Manage your YouTube account

Basic account info
View your email address
View your basic profile info

Paul Sellers is innocent in this, I am sure, and I hope he will become more involved next time when his team comes up with another marketing drive.

Is this a molehill or a mountain? You be the judge.

Simon

Don Dorn

11-24-2017, 12:32 PM

I tend to agree with the OP. Only have learned about it here as I have no interest in a "signed" anything regardless of where it comes from. While I'm a big fan of Sellers and have adopted his sharpening method as well as some other techniques, I will as stated, vote with my feet. On the same note, I like many things Christopher Schwarz does as well but I'll never pay exorbitant prices for "wax" or $180 for a pair of dividers, etc. I'm not sure what the draw is - does it register pride of ownership or make one feel "closer" to celebrity?

For the same reason, I won't do the DNA ancestry stuff - read the fine print of that stuff which signs your DNA over to someone else? Anyway, different strokes for different folks.

Shawn Pixley

11-24-2017, 12:34 PM

I didn't...

For those who did and wanted to remove the Gleam from accessing your youtube (did you know what you have given up? See below after the link), follow the instructions given in this link (as submitted and posted in Paul Sellers' blog post): https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=-M5UYQ2i0F4

Access given to: gleam.io

Has access to:

YouTube
Manage your YouTube account

Basic account info
View your email address
View your basic profile info

Paul Sellers is innocent in this, I am sure, and I hope he will become more involved next time when his team comes up with another marketing drive.

Is this a molehill or a mountain? You be the judge.

Simon

Okay as my own personal judge, I think it is less than a molehill. I have already spent too much time thinking of it. Admittedly, I don’t think particularly highly of Paul Sellers and am totally ambivelant as to his content. But, I would never allow someone to speak for me and I really try to avoid Paul Sellers anyway.

However, you obviously feel strongly and appear to find this more important than I.

Simon MacGowen

11-24-2017, 12:56 PM

but I'll never pay exorbitant prices for "wax" ?

Or...STICKERS!!!!

Every parent should help their kids do well -- including financially, but mixing one's professional business with one's kid's financial interest is a no no in my judgment (unless, as an exception, the kid is doing that for charity). If a kid's venture can stand on its own, let it thrive in a separate medium. Call me old-fashioned.

Well, that is a subject for another thread...if anyone else is interested in taking it up.

Simon

Simon MacGowen

11-24-2017, 5:38 PM

I was directed to Paul's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz7_npQfrk8

There, I saw a firestorm of comments in the comments section that I have never seen pitched at Paul like that.

May not be a mountain to some, but definitely so for many including a lot who have been Paul's friends and supporters!

This fits the textbook definition of a PR disaster.

Simon

Frederick Skelly

11-24-2017, 6:45 PM

Simon MacGowen

11-24-2017, 7:10 PM

But it's his PR disaster, my friend. If you vote with your feet, you aren't really affected, are you?

Respectfully,
Fred

NO PR disasters will ever affect me. In fact, none of the things seen or discussed in any threads in any woodworking forums have affected me.

So, respectfully, my friend, your point?

Simon

Frederick Skelly

11-24-2017, 7:14 PM

NO PR disasters will ever affect me. In fact, none of the things seen or discussed in any threads in any woodworking forums have affected me.

So, respectfully, my friend, your point?

Simon

Well, my point is that you seem to care a great deal about this, and I don't really understand why. I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything. I just don't understand.

Simon MacGowen

11-24-2017, 7:34 PM

<p>

Well, my point is that you seem to care a great deal about this, and I don't really understand why. I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything. I just don't understand. I am no more and no less different from many of those who voiced their opinions on the subject in Paul Sellers' Youtube channel or blog. Some of us feel strongly that when a trusted public figure like Sellers asked people to give up some of their rights in exchange for a chance to win something, that is fundamentally wrong. Some here or on his channel think otherwise. That is fine as we are different. Perhaps, that is why you don't know the why, because you think as long as one doesn't play the game, there is no harm. Some of us also speak up because we are disappointed that this goodwilled giveaway has turned out to be a tarnisher of Sellers' hardearned reputation. Did you see that blog post (now removed) by a long time supporter of Paul, Roy, who decided not only to unsubscirbe from his youtube but also cease renewing his masterclass subscription? I don't expect you and some to understand why he would react so strongly. Simon</p>

Frederick Skelly

11-24-2017, 10:14 PM

Thanks Simon. Have a good evening.
- Fred

Simon MacGowen

11-25-2017, 8:08 AM

Agree they messed up on the design of this giveaway. Seems like good intentions, but not thought through. Here is the "Team Paul" reply to the criticisms from a few hours ago. Still not fully thinking through the issue they've stirred up:

Not sure if Rush has any marketing or PR background but he is very sensitive to public reactions and the undercurrents. His single statement "Still not fully thinking through the issue they've stirred up" is the only comment I have seen anywhere in any discussion of this PR campaign gone wrong that points out the seriousness of what Sellers is facing. He and his team still have no clues what the fuss is about.

I posted this on his blog (not knowing if it might be removed):

"Hi Paul,

I hope you are personally reading this. I do believe this is a blunder caused by lack of expertise and experience as your team is not equipped to handle a PR crisis like this. Many big businesses even with professional PR departments have failed at times too in situations like this.

Please don’t play down the seriousness of this backlash as it does not come from people who dislike you, they are your long-time admirers and supporters. You must be proactive in fixing your error.

But I am not seeing it.

Your Team Paul’s half-baked statement issued in the Youtube channel hardly addresses the core concern that the exchange of rights for a chance to win is wrong. Like many PR incidents before you, your gut response was people overreacted.

I strongly suggest that you issue a statement of apology and put this all behind you. You may think this whole incident will be forgotten once the draw is over. Without proper closure, it won’t be over and years from today, people will still bring it up in the right context when your name is mentioned. Your reputation is AT STAKE, if you still don’t realize it.

I am also disturbed by the fact that your team removed the comments of a poster, Roy, here who accused you of being scammers, as well as those made in response to his comments. Why?

Some will see this as censorship of criticisms you don’t like. Another big no no when you already have a PR blunder to solve in your hands.

Either focus your mission on teaching, or get marketing expertise to help you manage your marketing drive."

How he will handle this crisis will partly determine how he will be remembered, if you asked me.

Simon

Rick Malakoff

11-25-2017, 9:11 AM

Simon, the horse is dead, stop beating it!

Rick

Simon MacGowen

11-25-2017, 9:20 AM

Simon, the horse is dead, stop beating it!

Rick

You sure that is a dead horse, Rick?

Perhaps Team Paul is (wishfully) thinking EXACTLY like you.

Simon

John Lanciani

11-25-2017, 9:28 AM

You sure, Rick?

Perhaps Team Paul is (wishfully) thinking EXACTLY like you.

Simon

Let it go Simon, it’s Paul’s bat and ball, he makes the rules. If you honestly think this giveaway was just some sort of feel good jesture on his part you don’t truly understand how the internet works. Nothing is free on the internet...

Simon MacGowen

11-25-2017, 9:36 AM

Let it go Simon, it’s Paul’s bat and ball, he makes the rules. If you honestly think this giveaway was just some sort of feel good jesture on his part you don’t truly understand how the internet works. Nothing is free on the internet...

Respectfully, please stop preaching that we are all helpless just because someone has set the rules. Speaking your mind is never a dead horse, neither is conviction.

Nothing in an Off-topic thread is a dead horse, just to be clear.

Simon

John Lanciani

11-25-2017, 10:28 AM

Respectfully, please stop preaching that we are all helpless just because someone has set the rules. Speaking your mind is never a dead horse, neither is conviction.

Nothing in an Off-topic thread is a dead horse, just to be clear.

Simon

Nobody said you were helpless Simon, but the answer is to vote with your feet. If more people leave than sign up it is a marketing failure, if more people sign up than leave it is a success. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to visit Paul’s site and sign up for anything. Trying to use the bully pulpit to force change is rarely successful.

Shawn Pixley

11-25-2017, 11:45 AM

<p>
I am no more and no less different from many of those who voiced their opinions on the subject in Paul Sellers' Youtube channel or blog. Some of us feel strongly that when a trusted public figure like Sellers asked people to give up some of their rights in exchange for a chance to win something, that is fundamentally wrong. Some here or on his channel think otherwise. That is fine as we are different. Perhaps, that is why you don't know the why, because you think as long as one doesn't play the game, there is no harm. Some of us also speak up because we are disappointed that this goodwilled giveaway has turned out to be a tarnisher of Sellers' hardearned reputation. Did you see that blog post (now removed) by a long time supporter of Paul, Roy, who decided not only to unsubscirbe from his youtube but also cease renewing his masterclass subscription? I don't expect you and some to understand why he would react so strongly. Simon</p>

I think you have identified the reasons behind the differences of opinion. You use the term, “...trusted public figure like Sellers...” when referring to a YouTube channel personality. Some of us don’t have as lofty of a view to anyone who has a youtube channel. He is just a person on the internet like the rest of us.

Even “trusted public figures” have been known to do or hawk stupid things. Think of George Foreman hawking his grill. Sellers is just a schmo on the internet with a youtube channel as am I. Witness many celebraties demonstrating their ignorance with various opinions on polititcs, science or vaccines. Your affection for Paul is clear and while I do not share it, I know some feel about him as you do. But he is trying to make money through the internet. If in capitalist theory, he made a mistake in his appoach, the market will punish him for it as we are witnessing.

As a consumer, it is often useful to remain dispassionate to recognize the more prurient methods employed to curry money, good reviews, or attention. What you lament is nothing new on the internet. Where is the passion around others (indiviuals or firms) employing similar strategies others protest?

IMO, the best way of expressing your displeasure is to unsubscribe and vote with your feet. You attempted to rouse further support, but not everyone shares your passion over the issue or Sellers. Good luck and be well.

Dave Zellers

11-25-2017, 11:59 AM

... Sellers is just a schmo on the internet with a youtube channel as am I....

Well, Paul Sellers was hired by the White House to build TWO pieces, not for an event, but to reside there permanently.

For me, that places him a notch or two above the rest of us schmos.

Larry Frank

11-25-2017, 12:41 PM

So...what is wrong with George Foreman selling his grill.

You call it hawking a grill. I think that selling 100 million is extremely successful business. I wish I had his share of those profits.

Dennis Peacock

11-25-2017, 1:28 PM

There are times when a thread needs to be retired. This one....is getting very close.

Edwin Santos

11-25-2017, 1:31 PM

There are times when a thread needs to be retired. This one....is getting very close.
I think there must be a way you can block an individual thread from your view if you find it bothersome. Kind of like voting with your feet.

Dave Zellers

11-25-2017, 1:52 PM

Edwin- he's a moderator. As long as everyone continues to be polite it seems unnecessary, but not for us to decide.

Simon MacGowen

11-25-2017, 2:18 PM

There are times when a thread needs to be retired. This one....is getting very close.

With due respect, why would you think so?

There were many many thread discussions in Sawcreek Forum that were more "heated" and protracted than this -- which I assume you are aware of as a moderator, and they did not get retired. They died of natural cause! This discussion is only days young.

I know moderators have their rights and responsibilities and can kill any thread as they see fit. But your warning, if it is a reflection of your judgment, is -- to say the least -- a surprise to me.

Simon

Keith Outten

11-25-2017, 3:58 PM

Generally a friendly warning is provided when the conversation begins to become a bit unfriendly or moves in a direction that would cause someone legal problems.

Simon MacGowen

11-25-2017, 4:34 PM

Generally a friendly warning is provided when the conversation begins to become a bit unfriendly or moves in a direction that would cause someone legal problems.

Your clarification is appreciated, Keith.

It has never been my intention or, I believe, the intention of anyone who participates in this thread to cause anyone including, of course, the owner or its representatives of the Forum, any legal troubles.

It is not clear if you are referring to any possible legal action coming from outside the Sawcreek or not, but in the interest of this Forum and its members, I will refrain from expressing my further opinions on this matter and will instead do so, if any, directly on Paul Sellers' blog/Youtube platform. As I said, he/is team has removed comments critical of him/his handling of the giveaway, but I have nothing to lose if he bans me from telling him the truth.

Thank you everyone for making their intelligent and reasoned inputs in this thread.

Simon