Mini max and other brands of sliding table saws

[lou sansone]

good evening fellow ww's

I was wondering if some of you have first hand experience with the mm smaller line of sliders ( SC4w) and or the felder 700 series, altendorf but I cant believe I could afford a new one, and or some other brand that I have not mentioned ( including dare I say the grizzly green machine ;) ;) )... I am still recovering from the "4 or 5 star" post the dev managed to get going ... he seems to have all the luck..

anyway back to the slider

I keep kicking all of this around and maybe its just the engineer in me or the fact that I am 1/2 italian ( my wife did a lot of business travel in europe for a few years and said of all the countries she delt with the italians would go round and round and round about stuff... drove her nuts) that causes me to churn about all of this stuff.

I have found that I really really like having a riving knife and all of those sliders have one. I also like the fact that they have a dust chute or blade flask rather than just dumping it in the bottom of the base and hoping for the best. I also like the fact that you can use them for cross cutting a bunch of compound angles using the slider and tilting the blade at the same time. I think I would like the idea of straight line ripping using the slider ( just for cleaning up the rough sawn edge from my sawmill ).

so what else am I missing and why should I buy a new one? I have gotten the feeling that sliders 10 years and newer are way more advanced than those made in the 80's. In fact I went to buy one recently and after seeing it turned around and said forget it. I would not want it even if it was free. But I know that a bunch of you do have experience with them.

Honestly what is the down side of them..

FYI I am currently running a Rockwell RT/40 - 12" to 16" blade, 7.5 hp, riving knife and blade flask / dust chute set up, big table top, spindle lock, dual speeds.

thanks
lou

ps I am interested in the guts of the sliders. I have heard that many do not have real trunions.. is this really a big issue

[tod evans]

i can only speak from personal experience but the mini-max group gets four stars in my book. i have never driven the smaller unit but their larger ones are built like a tank. even i who can tear-up a crowbar in a sandbox havn`t been able to damage their equipment. and the folks will go out of their way to accommodate you. ask for anyone close and they most likely let you take a test drive. tod

[Jim Becker]

Lou, both Mini Max and Felder can likely point to to customers near you where you can get up close and personal with the machines similar to what you are thinking about. Rob Russell is near you and he has a Felder slider, for example. (I don't personally know anyone with the MM near you, but they certainly exist in all likelyhood)

[lou sansone]

i can only speak from personal experience but the mini-max group gets four stars in my book. i have never driven the smaller unit but their larger ones are built like a tank. even i who can tear-up a crowbar in a sandbox havn`t been able to damage their equipment. and the folks will go out of their way to accommodate you. ask for anyone close and they most likely let you take a test drive. tod

so todd ... do you have one? and if so which one. If you do have one, could you snap some photos of some of the key parts ?
thanks
lou

[tod evans]

i do, and i`d be happy to, it`s the 315. let me know what you`d like photos of and i`ll shoot them in the morning. i`m just locking up shop gotta sick kid who need the `ol man. tod

[markus shaffer]

Lou,

I can't speak for older machines, but I do have a newer 700 series Felder saw/shaper combo. I wouldn't go back to a cabinet saw. Okay, maybe the SawStop with an aftermarket slider added. I have no idea if the design has changed enough over the past 10-15 years to make buying one worthwhile for you. I think as Jim pointed out, for the type of money, it's worthwhile to look at the machines in person and to ask specific questions of owners.

As Tod has responded, feel free to ask me any specific questions and request any specific photos. If you're up for the trip, NYC isn't too far off from you and you'd be welcome to visit my shop to see what I have in person.


-Markus

[Joe Mioux]

Maybe FWW could conduct a comparison test.

[Rob Russell]

Lou,

This is a pic of the guts of the Felder KF700S Pro I have. I don't know if they have changed them at all for the current series.

You're welcome to come look at the saw if you want to, although there are a few caveats (we can PM about those).

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14481&d=1104790879

Rob

[scott bonder]

i am in atlanta and have a felder combo with sliding table. you are welcome to stop by if you find yourself in the south. the felder users group is a great resource as well.

[lou sansone]

Maybe FWW could conduct a comparison test.

great idea, we need another malox moment once in a while :D
lou

[lou sansone]

Lou,

This is a pic of the guts of the Felder KF700S Pro I have. I don't know if they have changed them at all for the current series.

You're welcome to come look at the saw if you want to, although there are a few caveats (we can PM about those).

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14481&d=1104790879

Rob

thanks rob.. this is the kind of info I was wanting to see. so they use real trunions but from what I can see the raise and lower the blade like a more traditional northfield saw would, as opposed to the worm and screw assembly of most cabinet saws.

how is the action on both the up and down and the tilt? what locks them in place ?
lou

[lou sansone]

one other thing I will throw out for all of those who have responded ..

what about the throat plate. I see that mm has a little one that you can remove and make your own. what do you all do about that? do most of you slider's have a zero clearance type?

I believe that most of these sliders can now accept dado blades, not that I ever run them, but is this true?

thanks
lou

[jack duren]

when i was using the SC4w it wouldnt accept dados. but....when buying/looking at one remember that theres the American version and the foreign version. there different as far as blades,etc. watch the motor size as well...

[Mark Singer]

Lou,
I think the MM saw / shaper takes a dado...that is the ST-4 . The S315WS does not take a dado. I saw then today at the WW show....very nice! I am not sure I can get used to the slider...for sheet goods it is incredible!

[Jim Becker]

Lou, most, but not all, Mini Max sliders can be ordered to accomodate a stacked dado set. This offsets the slider away from the regular blade slightly, but you can continue to use your existing blades on the 5/8" arbor that many of their saws have. Felder also has a dado setup, although it's their own special design. Remember...dado sets are not used in Europe, so these US-bound saws had to have design accomodations to accept them.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Lou,
Ok here is my "buc 'n' an a quarter". The current MM combos and the SC4 do not have a true trunion as to what you expect. They are attached to the under side of the top itself. While i do not have first experience with them I have not heard anyone complain of them. The Felder 700 series also do not have a trunion as you know it. They have a single plate on one side with two sets of dovetail ways, one high and one low, so it is actually hung form one side. The MM S315 and up have a true trunion like you would expect as do the Felder 900 series and up. I wanted a true trunion and that is what I got. My current saw is the little Formula S35 and you can see some pics below. The center mass (white section) where both motors are hung on is all cast iron. The entire assembly rides up and down on two solid steel posts. The saw tilts on two cast iron trunions at the top. I have also include a pic of the zero clearance insert I made out of Garolite CE. One more note your Italian guess what goes better in your shop?;)

[Paul B. Cresti]

More pics from the top

[Paul B. Cresti]

Lou,
I think the MM saw / shaper takes a dado...that is the ST-4 . The S315WS does not take a dado. I saw then today at the WW show....very nice! I am not sure I can get used to the slider...for sheet goods it is incredible!

Mark,
No matter what slider you choose, if you do, there will be a learning curve. Remember all you know is a American CS. You will stand differently, use it differently, get better results and be safer but it will require retraining yourself and no one can tell you otherwise. I was scared like hell when I saw my Unisaw leave my shop and this aricraft looking thing show up. It looked strange felt wierd annd took some getting use to. After some head scratching and yes some cursing I am extremely happy today. I do not even want to lookat an American CS! To me it is nothing but a box with a blade!

[Mark Singer]

Paul,
Is the aircraft looking thing better for solid stock too....or just sheet goods? I am feeling the don't take my PM66 syndrome:(

[lou sansone]

thanks paul for the photos.. that is exactly what I wanted to see. I like the phenolic insert for the saw. I also like how these guys raise and lower the saw.

I think one of the things I feel a concern about, and maybe mark S does also, is the idea that after I make my cut and the piece is sitting on the outfeed table, I normally walk around my saw and pick it up, or I reach over and drag it back to the pile of wood that I have already cut. It seems that with the slider I am going to be walking around this big thing all the time and boping my ..... you know.

BTW I should point out that if I was to buy a slider I would just about never have the "out rigger or the sheet stock support" installed. I might run a mini-crosscut fence on the slider, but that would be it. I just never process sheet stock and can't see my self doing so. The one exception would be table tops and carcase sides ( if I ever get back to building high boys again ). then I would chuck the thing on there for a cut and take it off again.

lou

[Paul B. Cresti]

I will try to answer both of your questions... please excuse me if I stray I am doing this in between coats of shellac and the alcohol is making my head buzz!

First yes I do use it for solid stock also. I do use it for crosscutting much more though. It simple is a crosscuttin/mitering machine! Absolutely perfect results and since I have now been transformed into using floating tenons for M&T joints the ends must be perfectly square. The last project I completed was dead on every place I checked.

I have just begun using it for ripping using my ripping jig mounted in the slider. I have been rough ripping on my bandsaw though and running the final dimensions through the planer as this assures matching widths. My exploration in ripping with slider is in an attempt to remove some of the jointing and rough ripping steps. I will use this on my next job. I have ripped using the rip fence and it is better if not the same as a CS. The one thing that makes it better is the place you stand. If you remove the outrigger or slide all the way to the far end you can stand right on the side of the blade. Picture yourself facing the blade (on the side of the saw, right in front of the slider side), you push the stock into the blade with your right hand and as it passes through the cut and is now on the left side of the blade you can reach with your left hand and hold/pull the piece also after the cut. Now remember I have a overhead guard on so the blade is completely covered! I use the method when i am doing just one rip and want it very accurate and quick.

oops I hear the first coat of gel stain calling ... got to go....

[Paul B. Cresti]

OK first coat done......
One thing you can also check out is on the FOG for the "Big Squeeze" air clamp. Some of them have a clamp at either end of the slider and use these air power, piston like, rods to hold down stock to the slider while ripping. I use the eccentric clamps and they work OK for me. The other thing some guys do is mount a Incra jig or Joint Tech positioner to their slider, with outrigger on and use it to position its fence the desired distance from the blade for ripping. Since the slider movement is such a fixed range of motion, you have the stock clamped down (either with the Big Squeeze or eccentric clamps) you will get a perfect cut. This can eliminate the need for edge jointing between rips and keeps you safely away from the blade. All you are doing is clamping, sliding and reclamping.

[Ian Barley]

I think one of the things I feel a concern about, and maybe mark S does also, is the idea that after I make my cut and the piece is sitting on the outfeed table, I normally walk around my saw and pick it up, or I reach over and drag it back to the pile of wood that I have already cut. It seems that with the slider I am going to be walking around this big thing all the time and boping my ..... you know.

BTW I should point out that if I was to buy a slider I would just about never have the "out rigger or the sheet stock support" installed. I might run a mini-crosscut fence on the slider, but that would be it. I just never process sheet stock and can't see my self doing so. The one exception would be table tops and carcase sides ( if I ever get back to building high boys again ). then I would chuck the thing on there for a cut and take it off again.

lou
Lou
Sounds like you are looking at using your saw very much like mine. Mine is a consumer grade aluminium thing that you would cringe at but it is a slider.

If I am ripping on the sliding bed then I just pull the bed back at the end of the cut and the wood is back on the same side of the blade as I am - most of the time my feet haven't moved. If I am ripping against the fence the slider does a neat job of making me walk so that I can remove the workpiece safely from the outfeed side without leaning over the blade.

I never use mine for sheet goods and never use the outrigger or its table. Still wouldn't be without a slider.

I actually have a plan to upgrade and am looking at the SC2 and the SC3 as strong candidates.

[Paul Canaris]

I own the Knapp 10’ slider. As far as construction features:
* The saw trunion assembly is extremely robust (1” thick in spots); using a vertical jibbed dovetail mechanism for height adjustment (this feature is more like what I find on my metal working lathe).
* The cabinet itself is made of welded ¼” steel
* The slider uses captive bearings riding between hardened steel rails; the result is very little deflection even under very heavy loads. The slider extrusion is ribbed with ¼” thick walls.
* The slider has angular presets (0, 22.5, 45 degrees etc.) for the telescoping fence assembly that are dead nuts on from the factory, and stay that was for long periods of time.
* The telescoping fence is robust, with quite a few features of its own.
* In the FWW article that appeared a few years ago it was considered to be the easiest to calibrate when the need arose of those tested.
* The scoring unit adjusts with an Allen key from the top of the cast iron TS surface, no shimming required.
* The rip fence is rigid; I have no issues with deflection and it has a number of adjustment features that increase its flexibility.
* It has some nice optional features such as two sizes of add on outrigger tables for larger or smaller sheet good processing. Cutting sheet-goods on these is a pleasure, not a hassle.
* All of the surfaces are flat and true to within a thou or so.
* It takes a regular dado
* All in all it is built to last a lifetime of daily usage.

[Paul Canaris]

PS.... Lou, all of these companies will refer you to owners in your area that will be more than happy to have you stop by and try their units hands on, that's how I came to my decision.:)

[lou sansone]

another question

would you buy a used slider ?

lou

[tod evans]

lou, here`s a couple of pics of the saw. what paul said is true it`s a new dance but not hard to learn. like you i was apprehensive of change so i kept my old rt. i still have it but now it lives with a powerfeeder on it and a rip blade, sort of a poor-mans ripsaw. the sliders are great as they eliminate a large part of your jig building.i don`t have any experience with the other brands listed in this posting but i did have a chance to look at the griz 10` slider when it was first introduced and at that point the only slider i could compare it to was an older scmi.....i promptly walked away from the griz.i don`t know what you do with your tools or your space constraints but your old rt is still a nice saw and will outlive you and i. depending on which year you have it was made by either invicta or scmi and both companies are still going strong but invicta is a bit dificult to deal with on parts. as for a used slider if you stick with a good company i don`t see any problems. good luck whaterver you decide. tod25579

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[tod evans]

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[Paul Canaris]

another question

would you buy a used slider ?

lou

Talking in generalities; a used Altendorf or Martin will set you back a lot of $$,$$$.$$; they are the best and can stand up to a lot of use. Griggio, SAC and SCMI all make good units as well. I would want to see any used equipment under power first as used units have often seen usage at the hands of less than careful employees.
That is partly why I went with a Knapp. The quality of build and precision is there, it costs less than most of the units mentioned above and I will never wear it out, also there is a warranty if there are initial issues.

[Marc Langille]

I actually have a plan to upgrade and am looking at the SC2 and the SC3 as strong candidates.

Hi Ian,

I've seen the SC3 on the Mini Max website, but not the SC2 - is it an older model? I am seriously considering a slider for several reasons, but because of Paul, Dev, Markus, and a few other's comments about the safety and quality of European designs, I am leaning seriously towards a slider setup as my first saw.

I am a neander in a garage, but getting ready to setup a dedicated workshop. I guess almost any saw would be amazing at this point

I may go with a standard cabinet TS with a slider, but I am trying to decide if the extra $2-3K :eek: for a European style saw is worth the money. It seems to be... :)

How is MM's service and parts situation after the sale?

Marc

[Dan Larson]

Hi Lou,

Have you considered the Laguna TSS? This saw is a step down in cost and sophistication from MM, Felder, and friends-- but it may suit your needs. I have one and I'm happy with it. It's a design that melds a 50" format style sliding table with a heavy duty cabinet saw. It also has a riving knife, is able to run 12" blades, has a scoring blade, and has a dust shroud around the blade group. I'd be happy to answer questions or take pictures of key parts if you're interested.

Dan

[lou sansone]

Hi Lou,

Have you considered the Laguna TSS? This saw is a step down in cost and sophistication from MM, Felder, and friends-- but it may suit your needs. I have one and I'm happy with it. It's a design that melds a 50" format style sliding table with a heavy duty cabinet saw. It also has a riving knife, is able to run 12" blades, has a scoring blade, and has a dust shroud around the blade group. I'd be happy to answer questions or take pictures of key parts if you're interested.

Dan

hi dan

first thanks to todd for taking all of those pictures for me. I hope others here who are also thinking about all of this are benifiting from all the good info.

dan

to your point, yes I have given the laguna saw a look, and it is not different enough from my rt-40 to make it worth while. If I did not have the rt-40 then I might be more inclined to take the intermediate step. So far I have been most interested in something like the k700 series like rob has, but 1 level down, without the outrigger, and the mm sc4w with the outrigger removed.

One of the things I keep kicking around is the stroke of the saw. I think that to make the move I have to have at least 50 to 60 inches of slide or else it is just not worth all the hassel of moving machines around and selling the rt-40. having said that maybe I do just want to go to a true 8 foot slider and just live with it.

From what I can judge it looks like Mark S is getting some cold feet. If so, why? would love to hear from him

lou

[Jim Becker]

Lou, in my thoughts, I'd want at least the 8 ft slider, not because I would want to take up more space, but because I believe that would be more useful to me for working edges of solid stock as well as ripping sheet goods when the occasion arrises. I'd probably leave the outrigger folded most of the time, too, but would be sure I had room to use it when it offers an advantage. I'll sacrifice table size on the right to accomplish that.

Oh, I meant to comment on your earlier question abour material handling and "moving around the saw". Other than when actually using the rip fence, the off-cut is on the "saw side" of the slider, so there really is less of a need to walk around than you might expect. Most of the material stays on the sliding side of the blade.

Mark is with Sam Maloof this weekend, so he's undoubtedly "deeply engaged" in things outside of the forum! (I'm certainly jealous...)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Lou & others,
If anyone is so undecided to the benefits saws like these create I suggest going to a shop that has one and in which uses it. I am here in NJ so if people want to stop by and see the benefits I am sure we can work out a mutually beneficial time. It is really hard for us that have one to explain all the benefits through typing, pictures and the internet. I hope some of my postings have helped and maybe future ones will be more helpful. Does anyone have any other areas they want covered???

[lou sansone]

Lou & others,
If anyone is so undecided to the benefits saws like these create I suggest going to a shop that has one and in which uses it. I am here in NJ so if people want to stop by and see the benefits I am sure we can work out a mutually beneficial time. It is really hard for us that have one to explain all the benefits through typing, pictures and the internet. I hope some of my postings have helped and maybe future ones will be more helpful. Does anyone have any other areas they want covered???

hi paul and other "sliders"
I think that the information provided by you all is invaluable, at least to me it is. I have spoken to one of the salesmen at a good complany mentioned here, and he was very helpful indeed. But what you all provide is sort of the unvarnished hype, where you have no financial interest in the sale at all. One of the creeker members has offered to let me check out his saw, and I am going to take him up on the offer. You all have been very generous to open your shop to me and I thank you for that.

I am sure that this wont be the last time this topic is covered. Thanks again.

oh yea one more question

noticed on all of the sliders the "raise and lower" handwheel is on the "front" of the slider ( the technically correct front) . I would assume that the tilt is on the side of the saw ( what used to be called the front on a CS) . Is that true? When you are tilting the saw with the tilting handwheel, does it trace out an arc as you turn it?

[Paul Canaris]

hi paul and other "sliders"

oh yea one more question

noticed on all of the sliders the "raise and lower" handwheel is on the "front" of the slider ( the technically correct front) . I would assume that the tilt is on the side of the saw ( what used to be called the front on a CS) . Is that true? When you are tilting the saw with the tilting handwheel, does it trace out an arc as you turn it?

On the Knapp the height adjustment is in what would be called traditionally the front on a cabinet saw. The blade angulation is on the side (operator postion), just under the slider and describes an arc as it is turned.

[Dan Larson]

having said that maybe I do just want to go to a true 8 foot slider and just live with it.
Lou, if an 8 foot slider is within your budget, then I would urge you to go with it and not mess around with a smaller one. After using my Laguna for a few months now, I'm already wishing that the slider was a few feet longer. Whenever I can, I use the slider to rip solid stock. But for the longer pieces, I have to go back to using the traditional rip fence. Once you've gotten used to operations on the sliding table, it feels a little awkward to be working so close to the blade again. Not such a big deal of course, but I'd prefer to avoid it entirely.

[scott bonder]

felders can accomodate dado cutters theese days. it was an innovation that happened right after i bought mine (argh). honestly, i haven't missed it since mine is a combo shaper. i simple use an upcut spiral in the shaper, using the router spindle, and it works great. probably safer than a dado as well.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Current MM sliders do not have dado capabilities, only the combo machines. Felder sliders and combos do offer it but you need to order the removable flange (I think ?) and it will cost more.

Setting up a dado is very time consuming as we all know. Having a saw/shaper set up is nice in that you can use a router spindle/plywood bit to get extremely clean results. The downside of course is you need to set up the shaper and then you lose the shaper. I have come up with another solution, plenty others have done it so I am not recreating the wheel here! I am making a new router table that mounts to the "outfeed" side of my S35. The twist is it will replace my small steel table out there plus it will have (2) cut outs to install the router. One will be close to the slider for dadoing and the other one will be 90d from it for normal router table use. This way my shaper stays free, I get the benefits of a router dado PLUS I am using my slider for ease and speed. There is another great reason for a slider!:)

[Mark Singer]

Paul,
I am getting the impression you like your slider;)

[Timo Christ]

I think the idea of mounting a router in the outfeed table of a format saw is a very good idea. It gives a light duty shaper with sliding table at low cost. Much lower than the saw/shaper combos...
I will go this route when i have enough space for a sliding saw..
Timo

[John Renzetti]

[QUOTE=Paul B. Cresti]Current MM sliders do not have dado capabilities, only the combo machines. Felder sliders and combos do offer it but you need to order the removable flange (I think ?) and it will cost more.

Setting up a dado is very time consuming as we all know.QUOTE]

hi Paul, On the typical configuratons that are found in the USA the dado is standard on the Felder machines from the 700 to the Format 4 machines.
Setting up the Felder dado is not time consuming. It seems pretty quick to me.
take care,
John

[Richard Wolf]

I noticed that Laguna now sells a sliding table that fits a Powermatic 66 and Unisaw. And it's on sale!
www.lagunatools.com/sliding_table.htm

Richard

[Charlie Plesums]

I think the idea of mounting a router in the outfeed table of a format saw is a very good idea. It gives a light duty shaper with sliding table at low cost. Much lower than the saw/shaper combos...

I got the shaper in my combo, and can't believe how much better a shaper is than just a router/table. Certainly the router is cheaper, but I even use the larger router bits in the shaper - with better results than my router table. (The fastest shaper speed is slower than the router, so the small router bits don't do as well). I gave up my router table.

No problem with your idea, but don't expect the results to be equal to a shaper.

[Timo Christ]

Thanks for your response, Charlie. Could you explain with a little more detail why/how the shaper is better than a router table?
I understand it has more HP and probably less runout. But with a router mounted on a slider you still get the benefits of the sliding table. That's gotta be better than any other more or less fancy router table.

Regards
Timo

[lou sansone]

Current MM sliders do not have dado capabilities, only the combo machines. Felder sliders and combos do offer it but you need to order the removable flange (I think ?) and it will cost more.

Setting up a dado is very time consuming as we all know. Having a saw/shaper set up is nice in that you can use a router spindle/plywood bit to get extremely clean results. The downside of course is you need to set up the shaper and then you lose the shaper. I have come up with another solution, plenty others have done it so I am not recreating the wheel here! I am making a new router table that mounts to the "outfeed" side of my S35. The twist is it will replace my small steel table out there plus it will have (2) cut outs to install the router. One will be close to the slider for dadoing and the other one will be 90d from it for normal router table use. This way my shaper stays free, I get the benefits of a router dado PLUS I am using my slider for ease and speed. There is another great reason for a slider!:)


hi paul

that it a pretty cool idea. I do currently have a shaper. but it does not have a sliding table and that would be nice for the cope on cope and stick.. is that what you have in mind?

lou

[Paul B. Cresti]

hi paul

that it a pretty cool idea. I do currently have a shaper. but it does not have a sliding table and that would be nice for the cope on cope and stick.. is that what you have in mind?

lou
Lou,
I too have a stand alone shaper, the MM T50N and it has a sliding table with the outrigger support arm and table. My plans for the new router table is in an effort to create some more space in the shop while having a dedicated dado station. I will continue to do cope & stick and the majority of my moldings on the shaper. Since I will now have two places for my router, the one is oriented towards the slider only while the other place is for regular router use and for my PC OSS. I have done cope and stick on the router table before but once you have a slider on a shaper or a special jig you never want to back there