Are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning?

[Mikey Green]

I quit turning for a year or two, but just recently starting turning again. Before I took my hiatus, I'd purchased some carbide cutter tools and used them on a very limited basis for specific purposes. In coming back to my hobby and reviewing a lot of you-tube videos of others turning, as well as watching some television shows, I've noticed a fair number of people using carbide cutter tools for both spindle and bowl turning.

I'm definitely not trying to start any argument(s), don't want to list the names of the people I've seen on media turning, and I'm not about to speak negatively about carbide cutting tools or manufacturers of same, but in noticing some very experienced turners using them, it raised a question I wanted to run by others. When I returned to the lathe, I found myself increasingly picking up carbide cutting tools for different types of turning, and I had to force myself to use the regular spindle and bowl gouges to re-gain my cutting techniques. It seems it's getting to the point to where you can find a tool to create a cove, a bead, dig into end-grain, etc, just by sticking a tool against your stock, rather than having to manipulate a gouge to do the same thing.

Again, this is not meant to be a thread knocking those manufacturers who've created these new tools-only a survey to see if others feel the carbide cutting tools are causing us to lose some of our skills, or making it so much easier for us that we're losing some of our desire to use the "old gouges". So here are the questions;

1. Do you use carbide cutting tools (with replaceable cutters), spindle and bowl gouges?

2. Do you turn exclusively with roughing, spindle and bowl gouges?

3. Do you think the use of carbide cutting tools is causing us to lose some of our "craftsmanship" in creating our turnings?

4. Is it your desire (in turning) to create a pretty piece, or to increase your turning skills? These aren't always mutually exclusive, I know, but just curious to get the forums' turners to give some thoughts on the subject.

I'd be interested in any comments as well.

[Stan Calow]

I'll take a shot. Im just a hobbyist, turning occasionally for utilitarian objects (i.e., tool handles, basic pens), table legs, etc., not into bowls or art pieces.
For me, the time saved with carbide is whats important.
1) yes; 2) no - get most of the way there with carbide, finishing up with regular tools; 3) probably; 4) pretty is good, but precision is better.

But there is another thing that carbide does, and that is to get new people interested in turning since they can see positive results much more quickly.

[John Sanford]

Interesting that you don't even mention the skew. If not, then the answer to why you don't mention the skew is likely the same answer to the popularity of carbide tools.

[Marvin Hasenak]

I tried them, I got rid of them, I prefer a good sharp chisel, for me even a HF HSS is a better option than carbide. For years I was a production turner making game calls. A lot of my tooling including the specialty chisels I used, I had to make out of tool steel. The only use I have for them is the indexable tool bits that I use on my metal lathe.

[Michael Mills]

1 - yes 2 - no. But I do use conventional tools 90%+ of the time. I do have one carbide I may use occassionally.
3. I don't think it will cause a loss of craftsmanship. JMO but craftsmanship is the end result, use whatever tool you wish to get there. If you made a roll top desk it doesn't matter if you have a shop of power tools or hand tools. You can have a great final product with dovetail bits in a router or possibly a lousy product with a dovetail saw and chisel. Or vise versa.
4. Hopefully both but just because it is pretty doesn't mean it has any value. I would rather have an ugly bowl that held soup than a pretty one that didn't.

I didn't know the purpose was new, just the material. Over 30 years ago Del Stubbs showed the same basic tool, HSS brazed onto the end of the rod. Someone though of using carbide and now sells lots of handles at $100 each.

[George Troy Hurlburt]

Of course I think the finished project is all that counts. I have a 35 years collection of gouges, scraping, hollowing tools and maybe just a few carbide tools. I use carbide at times for crust busters on segmented bowls, glue dulls regular turning tools. Then I will use my others. I have a few tools with torque arms to get down inside and it doesn't get much better than that for safety.

[daryl moses]

I have some, i made my own but i don't use them very often. I NEVER use them for bowls although I did try. For me they do not do anything that a sharp bowl gouge or scrapper will not do better.
I do use them for end grain hollowing and they do a better job than anything else I have. But i'm sure there are "traditional" cutters that will do a better job than the carbides, I just don't own any.
In my opinion they are just another tool that supplements my arsenal of more traditional tools.

[Robert Henrickson]

1. I sometimes use Hunter tools, depending on the project, but none of the scraper-type carbide tools. I get a finely cut surface with the Hunters.

2. I use a wide variety of gouges for almost all my turning, but also bedan and skew.

3. With the scraper-type carbide tools, there may some loss of fine detail, such as in cutting deep/narrow sharp-bottom Vs, so "craftsmanship" might be considered somewhat slighted, but it may depend on what sorts of things are being turned.

4. My goal is to create something attractive and well-made. Trying new things is more likely to increase skills than turning more of what I've already turned in abundance. The improved skills are a potential benefit, not a conscious primary goal. I have a strong tendency toward "That looks interesting -- let's see if I can make something like that", so I wander into many types of specialist or traditional turning.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

In my opinion they are just another tool that supplements my arsenal of more traditional tools.

+1 to this. I do own and use them, but only when I THINK they do a better job than the traditional tools. I do prefer a sharp traditional tool. IMO there are quite a few cuts that cannot be done with a carbide. Or, more precisely, I don't know how you can do certain cuts with a carbide, since the shapes of the cutters are limited. A nice sharp V groove is one of them. Just my $0.02.
Although not mentioned, and in a class of it's own is the Termite end grain cutter. I think it's pretty close to a carbide, but I do like the Termite for hollowing end grain boxes. It gets deeper than a gouge.
Also not in the discussion as already mentioned, the skew. I use them, but rarely, since I'm not good at using them. I am getting better the more I practice.

[Steve Jenkins]

Something else kind of in the same vein. I was talking to a turning instructor at a woodworking show and he had his students learn on a treadle lathe. That put a huge emphasis on sharpening not being able to power through with a less than ideal tool

[Brandon Speaks]

I picked up a hunter and some carbide scraper about this time last year when getting back into turning. I actually had a lot of trouble with them at first compared to gouges.

Now I use one quite a bit. It seems that when I have a nice piece of wood I go with the gouge, when I am going out to quickly mess around and knock out a turning I use the hunter. No real reason more just habit I guess. Sometimes when a cut is not working with one I switch to the other and it helps.

I am by no means an experienced turner but for me right now I like having both options and would not want to give up either.

[John K Jordan]

Something else kind of in the same vein. I was talking to a turning instructor at a woodworking show and he had his students learn on a treadle lathe. That put a huge emphasis on sharpening not being able to power through with a less than ideal tool

Nice, I like that! I start beginners out with me turning the lathe by hand and with a sharp skew in their hands. This way they can get the feel for how the bevel and edge interact with the wood and as you imply, how to use finesse instead of force. I'd love to be able to drive the lathe at about 8-10 rpm. Treadle or spring pole lathe would be perfect.

To answer the question "are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning" I'd say only if you use them! (and never bother learn to use sharp tools.)

From my perspective you have to make the distinction between the type of carbide tools used by a couple of toolmakers including Mike Hunter and those made with cheap carbide inserts made for metal turning. I've used both and they are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. The Hunter tools can be used like a sharp spindle or bowl gouge or a fine scraper. The flat topped inserts can't. From what I've seen people don't even sharpen them when they get dull. When I tried them the surfaces I got was horrible and had to be sanded with 100 grit paper or coarser. The Hunter cutters can cut incredibly cleanly on bowls or spindles.

I use nothing exclusively. Much of my turning is with Thompson skews, gouges, and scrapers, depending, and a few specialty tools. I sometimes use a roughing gouge for spindles but usually rough with a skew instead.

The rest of my turning is usually with the Hunter tools.

JKJ

[Roger Chandler]

Personally, I rarely use a carbide tool. I have an EZ rougher, and only use it to do the inside wall of a box to give me that crisp 90 degree corner on the inside bottom. I also use a square scraper at times for the same thing. I much prefer to use traditional tools, and develop my skills increasingly along the way. I do use a hunter carbide cutter to smooth out the ridges on the inside of hollow forms.

To me, learning to properly use and sharpen tools is imperative to being an accomplished turner, although I do have a friend who mainly uses scrapers, and is quite an accomplished turner. I realize that Reed Gray and some others mainly use scrapers, but I am quite sure he also is very familiar with traditional tools and proficient in their usage.

Those things being said there are some that only do a bit of turning as a hobby, and turn small items like pens.....some of them do not want to invest in sharpening systems, etc, but being a full fledged turner of many varied forms will likely lead one to have and use traditional tools.

[allan kuntz]

I turn nothing but dry lumber laminated into a block or segmented, I have an EZ rougher and finisher that I use to rough turn then use a gouge or scrapper to finish cut. As far as I am concerned on dry wood nothing beats carbide for roughing but admit the sharp traditional tool to shear scrape will give a better finish. As far as losing skills. People use to dig ditches by hand with a shovel and then someone invented a backhoe. And that's my 2 cents
Al

[richard shelby]

I depend heavily on my only carbide cutter, an ez-wood finisher with a round insert,mainly for roughing bowls. I turn about 100 a year. For finishing I switch to a gouge, scraper, etc. in HSS. The advantage is, of course, more turning and less sharpening. Carbide is essential when turning inlay with stone like turquoise, chrysocolla, brass, etc. That simply eats up a a good HSS tool. Lately I have started sharpening carbide cutters with a diamond hone. I think of it as using technology when appropriate to enhance the art of turning.

[Len Mullin]

Mikey, I don't think they are, most people use both types of tools. Sure carbides are not the end all of tools, but they do have a place in turning. And Kyle Iwamoto, you can make or cut a very sharp vee with carbide tools, a sharper and deeper vee then you can with a conventional tool. To do it, you just have to purchase the proper carbide insert. There's new inserts that you can buy, that come to a very sharp vee at the tip. I can't recall who is selling them, or where to buy them fight off hand, bur I'm sure they could be found with a search. I checked them out when I was on the computer last night, I hope I can find them again as I want to buy a few. I find that most newbies start out with carbide tools, they like them better then the conventional tools. The reason they like them better, is that they can accomplish turning a dish a pen or some other item. But once they get deeper into turning, they all want to learn to use the conventional ones. Tim Yoder, Brendon Stemp, Carl Jacobson, and many more reputable turners have carbide tools in amongst their conventional ones. So, my opinion is that, no, I don't think they are interfering with people using conventional.
Len

[Robert Willing]

+1 to you Richard I do exactly the same it is using the technology of today. I do use a standard gouge to do a lot of rough spindle turning and some finishing. I figure whatever it takes to get the job done.

[John K Jordan]

...And Kyle Iwamoto, you can make or cut a very sharp vee with carbide tools, a sharper and deeper vee then you can with a conventional tool. To do it, you just have to purchase the proper carbide insert. There's new inserts that you can buy, that come to a very sharp vee at the tip. ...

If you can find it I'd like to see a picture. It's hard to imagine a v-groove with a perfect point at the bottom narrower (sharper) than can be made with a small angle skew chisel. The skew also leaves a clean glass-like surface all the way to the bottom of the groove. I do have a one fairly sharp prototype diamond insert made for cutting a v but the angle is far less acute than what the skew can easily do and doesn't leave as clean a surface. It also has a slightly rounded tip - do the new inserts you mention come to a "perfect" point without sacrificing strength/toughness?

[Jeffrey J Smith]

1. Do you use carbide cutting tools (with replaceable cutters), spindle and bowl gouges?

The only carbide tool I’ve got is a Hunter cutter for my hollowing rig.

2. Do you turn exclusively with roughing, spindle and bowl gouges?

Yes - rarely use a spindle roughing gouge though.

3. Do you think the use of carbide cutting tools is causing us to lose some of our "craftsmanship" in creating our turnings?

I think it just sells a lot more sandpaper for the most part. If the surfaces and detail you get from the tools you use is acceptable to you, go for it. I tend to want to grow personally through my turning both in the forms that I produce and in the level of craftsmanship I bring to the piece. I’m not a production turner, there is little impetus for speed.

4. Is it your desire (in turning) to create a pretty piece, or to increase your turning skills? These aren't always mutually exclusive, I know, but just curious to get the forums' turners to give some thoughts on the subject.

I enjoy the process - from the initial design or concept of what I can make with a chunk of tree, through sawing the blank and roughing to see what’s there. Then finishing the piece. Its the act of making that appeals to me. The concept often evolves during the journey, and sometimes the outcome is just a pile of shavings, but in the process I hope to have learned a new skill or gained the knowledge to avoid at least some of the missteps next time around.

The process often plays out over months or years for a given blank. For me, there’s a component of honoring the materials we use. While its true that our basic material does grow on trees, now that I live basically in a forest, I’ve come to appreciate the life that surrounds me every day and the peace and serenity the sense of community thats shared within a healthy living forest. I want to honor that by bringing enough skill to the process to avoid creating little more than a pile of shavings; to cleanly and purposefully cut the fibers and bring something new to life. It can take several decades to produce that quilted maple or madrona burl, it seems important to take a little time and bring the best skills and the most appropriate tools I can muster to bear on making it into something new and, with luck, at least as beautiful as it started out.

[Mikey Green]

Just checked back in to see if there were any responses. Thanks to all for your input!!

First off, my fault for not clarifying the difference between the two words, "craftsmanship" and "artistry"" (or "art"). Those words are probably interpreted differently by each of us. I'm not saying I'm right with my definitions-I may be completely off base, but when I think of "craftsmanship", I think of the process itself, and what skills are required to produce a piece. . When I think of "art"/"artistry", I think more of the design and finished product. A factory-produced bowl may have a perfect shape, but being completely manufactured by machines turned on by a man who just hits buttons, I don't personally feel the button-pusher is showing craftsmanship. A hand-made bowl that includes a beautiful design executed well displays artistry in the design and finished product, and also shows the craftsmanship of the turner in that it's made from a piece of raw wood manipulated by hand, even though some machinery is utilized in the process. There's no firm line as to when a bowl changes from being hand-made to factory produced that I can tell, but this is determined on an individual basis.

There's a show on PBS called "A Craftsman's Legacy", hosted by a guy named Eric Gorges. In the show, Eric travels around to visit men and women who engage in an unusual trade requiring manual skills (including an episode where he turned a small bowl). He always asks his guests if they consider themselves a craftsman or an artist. It's interesting to hear the different responses from each guest on that question.

On the outside chance someone may think it's not fair for me to have asked these questions without giving my own opinions, I'll go ahead and give my thoughts now:

1. I do use both carbide tools and gouges. John Sanford, I appreciate and understand your comment with regard to skew chisels! I'll occasionally use/try them in the beginning stages of a turning, with plenty of stock to correct my mistakes. The skew is by far the hardest tool I've tried to conquer!

2. No. As stated, I do occasionally use carbide cutters, but try to use the traditional gouges as much as possible.

3. I personally think it's more so that carbide cutters "can" cause us to not develop skills if we're a beginning cutter. I know that, for me, using a carbide tool is easier than using any gouge, as a rule. However, that does bring newcomers into our hobby easier than getting frustrated trying to remember when to turn a "traditional" tool so the bevel makes contact, raising or lowering the handle as you turn, etc. In other words, for me, more skill is required to use roughing, spindle and bowl gouges. As for the skew, you just have to have the patience of Job and a few years (or decades) of practice.

4. My end goal is to produce a pretty piece, BUT, the idea is to produce a hand-made object, whether it's a pen, spindle, candlestick, top, lamp, bowl, box, etc. People don't pay a premium for a manufactured bowl as often as they do for a bowl turned by hand from some individual. The reason the premium price is paid for hand-made items is at least in part because they're hand-made!

A few minutes after I'd hit the "send" button on my initial posting, I thought someone was going to call me out for singling out the carbide cutters, when in fact, most of us use lathes that are powered, rather than a lathe turned by foot power or the original lathes that required two people for use. In fact, at some point in history, I'm guessing the roughing, spindle and bowl gouges were new to people as well. I haven't researched this so I may be wrong, but I'd guess the skew is probably closest to the "original" of all currently used tools (might also be a scraper of some type-like I said, I haven't checked into that at all).

In summary, anything that encourages newcomers to turn and lessens the likelihood of frustration is a good thing. If it allows those who've been at this for a few years to be able to do something better, something we couldn't previously do, or if it enhances the finished product, I think that's a good thing too, as long as we don't get to that line where the product goes from being hand-made to something like a factory-produced piece.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I can't speak for the use of Carbide tools. I regularly turned back in the late 1960's and then was away for 45 years. So much has changed. The use of chucks, bowl savers, fancy hollowing rigs, carbide tools, fingernail grinds, sharpening jigs, variable speed lathes existed but were not commonplace in home workshops. Add to that, new finishes, AC glue and other modern chemicals. For me it is as if wood turning went from the industrial age, to the digital age in a blink. I look at the things turned out compared to decades ago and I am definitely in awe of the skill of so many. The one thing that seems to have changed a lot is sharpening. New exotic grinds demand mechanical help to accomplish them. Carbide tools skip the skill of sharpening altogether. Like a cartridge head razor, just pitch the end and replace it with a new one.

I don't know that the end product suffers. It may be more akin to modern folks when the power goes out. They panic, can't heat their house, or prep food. Yet my Amish neighbor's do just fine and don't have electric to even lose it. In a way, folks could lose sight of the foundation of turning. Whether it affects the things turned, remains to be seen. After all these years, I still have not tried to go back to bowl turning. There is something about spindle turning and using a skew to create shapes that intrigues me. I have been practicing by turning out little snow men figures to be donated to charity. Simply round the stock, roll two or three beads and peel cut a top hat, and part it off. For a small tree, I practice making a series cuts from one side instead of a vee cut. I am trying to finesse the cuts to the point that no sanding is required. I am certainly not there yet, but I can see so much improvement over what I was turning just months ago.

I have been told that even at their sharpest, carbide cutters are not as clean cutting as some of the older carbon steel tools. The difference comes from knowledge of how to sharpen and use the "non-carbide" tools.

[William C Rogers]

I have two carbide tools I use. One is the EW detail and I use the Hunter carbide for scraping. I've tried the flat carbide and don't like using them. However it really doesn't make any difference how you remove the wood. Maybe you can tell if someone used traditional tools or carbide, but I can't. Also I cannot tell what lathe was used to make a piece. It doesn't matter. I buy the best tools and lathes I can afford, but it doesn't mean I can make a better turning then someone that doesn't have as costly tools as I have. So to me it is the turner that his preference to use what he has to make his turnings.

[Reed Gray]

The only thing I don't like about the carbide tools is that the cutters are designed to be used till dull, then you throw them away. My Grandma, who lived through the Depression would come back and haunt me. Most of them are scrapers, and I use scrapers more than most people. A lot more. The popularity of them, is at least in part due to the fact that they are small scrapers and easier to handle than the big heavy scrapers, which all too often, in unskilled hands, end up taking too big of a bite and results in catches. They are nice for end grain work, but I do prefer more conventional/traditional tools which are easy to sharpen and use again and again and again....

robo hippy

[richard shelby]

Carbide cutters can be sharpened with a diamond hone. I keep mine sharp, just like I keep gouges and scrapers. Check out the several videos on Youtube.

[Bill Boehme]

..... Are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning?

No, but it might prevent someone from gaining skills in the first place.

[Jim Becker]

Late to the party...but honestly, my feeling is that it's the art that counts, not what tool you used to create it. Tools and techniques are secondary because what's important is the end result. Tools don't make up for one's eye, sense of proportion or anything else. "Carbide" tools might even help with the art because the edge stays keen and that means less disruption of focus to sharpen, etc. The tools I use are the ones I enjoy using. And addressing a point that someone else brought up...no, I try NOT to use a skew. Ever. LOL

[Dok Yager]

I use and have both mutiple carbide tools for turning and especially for deep hollowing. I have a bunch of old and new gouges,scrapers,skews and others that I use as well. I think it just depends on the wood and the project. I have 3 cheaper Harrison Tools that are carbide I have had for some time now. And a couple of Trent Bosch`s carbide tools for hollowing. But most of the time i use my old gouges and skews etc.

[John Beaver]

I was originally a professional photographer and I always said that digital photography made the public better photographers but professionals worse.

I think carbide is similar. The learning curve is easier, so more people can enter the field, but it can only take you so far. Most carbide tools are scrapers and you can not get as good a finish with a carbide scraper as you can a gouge. Also, with no bevel to control the gouge, it is more difficult to fair a nice curve. If they work for you and make your life easier - go for it. But I doubt you will see very many professional turners relying on carbide.

[Harold Balzonia]

Because of the nature of the junk trees (usually firewood) I turn, I use carbide when I don't know what's hiding in there... if I snag a nail, or a bullet, or barbed wire or other crap, I don't worry about it. I also regularly use an angle grinder and untold numbers of other home made tools that most people wouldn't do on a lathe.

that said, the only way I finish shape and/or finish cut anything is with traditional steel gouges.

Carbide might get you in the theater, but traditional tools are the all access back stage pass....

[Bill Boehme]

I was originally a professional photographer and I always said that digital photography made the public better photographers but professionals worse.

I think carbide is similar. The learning curve is easier, so more people can enter the field, but it can only take you so far. Most carbide tools are scrapers and you can not get as good a finish with a carbide scraper as you can a gouge. Also, with no bevel to control the gouge, it is more difficult to fair a nice curve. If they work for you and make your life easier - go for it. But I doubt you will see very many professional turners relying on carbide.

I would like to add another thought to what John said. There are raised lip carbide cutters that, in addition to being used as scrapers, can also be used as bevel rubbing cutting tools. However, in order to use the carbide cutters in that manner, you would need to have the requisite skills to make bevel rubbing cuts.

[Prashun Patel]

It's not that hard to learn to use traditional tools. What's hard is learning good design.

The difference between good and great turning is in the form and presentation of the wood.

its not the tool that does this.

[Brice Rogers]

I would like to add another thought to what John said. There are raised lip carbide cutters that, in addition to being used as scrapers, can also be used as bevel rubbing cutting tools. However, in order to use the carbide cutters in that manner, you would need to have the requisite skills to make bevel rubbing cuts.

Bill, a couple of months ago I made a knock-off of the Hunter Hercules tool that uses the raised lip carbide cutter. As you may know, the end of it is angled or tipped forward to make it less aggressive. I tried it inside of a bowl and initially wasn't that impressed. I thought that it was still pretty aggressive and it gave me tear out. But I thought for hogging a HF, that it might work okay.

Then a couple of days ago I tried it on a redwood platter. Redwood is soft wood and can give a moderate amount of tear out. This time I both rotated the tool and positioned it to rub the bevel and to give a true shearing cut. The results were pretty good and I was impressed. So, I agree with you that bevel rubbing cuts can come out well.

I am contemplating trying to do a bevel rub cut with my square flat carbide scrapers as an experiment. I'm wondering if anyone has mastered that on anything but small diameter spindles. I'm concerned about a significant catch. I have semi-mastered using a skew in the shearing/slicing mode on spindles but gave up trying to use it on larger diameter pieces. I'm wondering if the same thing would hold true with the small 0.4" square carbide cutters.

[Bill Boehme]

Brice, you certainly should be concerned about getting a catch because it will be difficult to avoid catching a corner or losing bevel contact. Besides that, the flat topped carbide cutters would be equivalent to using a dull gouge.

[glenn bradley]

Speaking as someone who does not turn often and who does not consider himself a turner; I am able to get results quickly with 2 or 3 carbide tools with a minimum of skill :-). Obviously I don’t do anything too sophisticated. But for my occasional needs they seem ideal. They’re like a Festool Domino for turners; Quick and reasonably full proof with a minimum of practice.

[Randy Heinemann]

No to the original question. I started turning about a year ago and didn't want to initially invest in nor take the time and effort to develop the sharpening skills required for HSS tools so I bought mostly carbide insert tools with a HSS skew and a dovetail chisel for specific reasons related to what I was planning on doing.

It's possible, or maybe even likely, that, as I develop my turning skills, I will invest in a bowl gouge (or gouges) since I my focus is bowls. However, carbide tools were a good way to get started quickly and I find that I can, in fact, get a good finish off the lathe if I'm careful and take light passes as final steps. I imagine I still sand more than a turner who has developed skills with a bowl gouge, but I'm satisfied for now. Even though I do like turning, I also like all kinds of woodworking and don't intend to spend the majority of time turning.

I believe that I am learning basics about turning with the carbide tools and, as I feel I need to expand my skills, it's possible some HSS tools are in my future.

[David Delo]

Back in 2011 when all I did was 'flat-work" my daughter asked me to finish off a veneered table-top that didn't have a post or legs. At that time I had just about every known to mankind woodworking tool but no lathe or any lathe tool accessory. Just so happened that that about that time I attended an auction and picked up a Delta Midi lathe with extension for 50 bucks that I thought would fit the bill to finish that project. Bought a couple of the EZ wood tools and went to work. Needless to say, got bit by the sight of the wood spinning round & round and have fallen into the vortex for good. Can't tell you the last time the table saw, joiner, planer or router table etc. etc. etc. has been turned on but it's been more than several years. Say all of that to say this, if it wasn't for the carbide tools in the beginning to finish this table with pretty much zero lathe skills, I would have never wanted to continue learning the lathe. I've since learned to sharpen traditional tools and invested in the "proper" equipment to get the best results. I think I did a pretty decent job on this project and she never asked me if I did this job with Thompson, D-way, Sorby or carbide cutting tools.
372414372415372416372417

[roger wiegand]

This discussion seems to hearken back to the scraper vs bevel edge (eg gouge, skew) tool discussion that was au courant back when I started turning. My answer is still the same, use what works for you. I've just started turning again after a ~15 year hiatus so have not gotten up to speed on the new tools, but it looks as though the new generation of carbide tools are just scrapers that seldom need sharpening and are never truly sharp-- I hope I'm right about that, as it will save me hundreds of dollars in new tool purchases!

Certainly the final product is what matters, but I'm much happier with pieces where I achieve a finished surface right off the tool rather than as the result of extensive sanding-- whether or not the viewer of the piece can tell how I got there. Irrational, but there it is. (also, a rare accomplishment for me)

[John K Jordan]

This discussion seems to hearken back to the scraper vs bevel edge (eg gouge, skew) tool discussion that was au courant back when I started turning. My answer is still the same, use what works for you. I've just started turning again after a ~15 year hiatus so have not gotten up to speed on the new tools, but it looks as though the new generation of carbide tools are just scrapers that seldom need sharpening and are never truly sharp-- I hope I'm right about that, as it will save me hundreds of dollars in new tool purchases!

I remember that. At one time no respectable or professional turner would be caught using a scraper!

This was mentioned several times earlier in this thread, I think, but there is another type of carbide tool that is quite sharp, doesn't need sharpening, and can make nearly flawless bevel-rubbing cuts. Mike Hunter has an extensive line of these, I've seen tools with similar cutters from a guy in England, and some from Harrison Specialties look similar from the photos. I have one called an "Eliminator" that Craft Supplies used to sell and the Vermec uses one on their excellent sphere jig (not a good photo - I need to get out the macro lens!):

372475

This type of tool and cutter can be used as a cutting tool or a scraper (and make excellent hollowing tools). Turner John Lucas teaches an introductory class for novices where the only tool used is a Hunter tool! I just finished another squarish platter that required "cutting air" on thin edges and this one was made from a brittle wood that chipped if you looked at it sideways. I used the Hunter Hercules tool entirely for this and the finish cuts were clean with no edge chipping with light cuts. I'll post a picture as soon as I get the final finish on it.

I bought tested some flat-topped carbide Easy Wood tools at one time and while they were fine and maybe even good for roughing the surface was terrible in some woods and simply unsatisfactory (to me) for some other things. There was tearout that would probably require 100 or 80 grit sand paper to remove. I can't live like that! (I gave them away) If the cutter was kept sharp with diamond hones it might be better but they are still scrapers, not usually useful in many circumstances (to me).


Certainly the final product is what matters, but I'm much happier with pieces where I achieve a finished surface right off the tool rather than as the result of extensive sanding-- whether or not the viewer of the piece can tell how I got there. Irrational, but there it is. (also, a rare accomplishment for me)

One thing the reduced sanding can get you, depending on the design of the piece, is "crisper", detail! It's very difficult to preserve detail with coarse sand paper. I often use things like fine grooves and coves with crisp edges which I want to stay very crisp (until l ease the sharp corners with maybe 1000 or 1200 grit paper.) I sometimes use such detail on bowls and platters but especially on spindles:

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When this was discussed once before there was a "proving" that the flat-topped carbide cutters could be used in a bevel-rubbing mode to cut nice coves and detail on spindles. I watched these but what I saw looked like terrible tearout with no closeups of the surface at the end. I suspect as carbide tools evolve they will be more useful (to me) but for now I'll stick to my gouges and skews. As you say, what ever works!

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

The debate about scrapers will probably go on forever. There are a few exceptions, but most tools are only as good as the user. Some times learning good technique and proper presentation makes the biggest difference. So, a few points.... Nothing wrong with using any scraper, and if you know what you are doing with them you can get as good of a surface from them as you can from a gouge. The comments I get after demoing how I use scrapers vary from 'I may have to rethink scrapers' to 'that is down right scarey,' and I've never seen them used like that.' Oh, yes, you can do bevel rubbing cuts with them too. Carbide cutting tips can be touched up, but from what I have heard, they never go back to 'good as new'. I have been told that you can not turn a burr on carbide, which I was told was impossible on M2, and the video about the StewMac scrapers the guy says that you can't burnish a burr on his scrapers. He probably used a standard burnishing tool and not a micro grained carbide burnishing rod. Well, they never met me.... I have not yet gotten a chance to try to burnish a burr on a carbide cutter, so jury is out on that one. The thicker cupped carbide tools can do bevel rubbing cuts, no problem, and that is easy to understand. With the thinner flat cutters, it could be done, but given the very thin/small bevel, it could be catchy. I would not try it with one of the square ones except on the outside of a bowl. On the inside, only a round one. I think they could work as shear scrapers, but the cutter sizes are a bit small for my tastes. The sharpness of them is generally more sharp than most of our tool metals. This is most likely because they are more polished. The high grits on M42 and V10 do cut more cleanly, but don't last for heavy roughing. The extra hardness of the micro grain carbides lets them last a lot longer. I am amazed that no one has a mandrill for the round carbide cutters so you can mount them on a drill and spin them against a very fine diamond hone. You would probably need to touch both top and bevel. Now, I am thinking that might create a burr..... I still don't own any...

robo hippy

[richard shelby]

"I am amazed that no one has a mandrill for the round carbide cutters so you can mount them on a drill and spin them against a very fine diamond hone"

I tried that with a Dremel arbor, the kind used to mount a sanding disk. The results were less than spectacular because the arbor was slightly off size and the cutter was out-of-round slightly. However, with a proper arbor it might just work. Lately, I just rub the flat on a diamond hone with acceptable (not as good as new) results. Still looking for a mandrill or arbor of the right size.

[Randy Heinemann]

"I am amazed that no one has a mandrill for the round carbide cutters so you can mount them on a drill and spin them against a very fine diamond hone"

I tried that with a Dremel arbor, the kind used to mount a sanding disk. The results were less than spectacular because the arbor was slightly off size and the cutter was out-of-round slightly. However, with a proper arbor it might just work. Lately, I just rub the flat on a diamond hone with acceptable (not as good as new) results. Still looking for a mandrill or arbor of the right size.

You can "resharpen" the flat carbide inserts by removing them from the tool and honing the flat side on whatever diamond stone you wish. You don't need a mandrel. I've done it with mine and the result is that it is sharper than it was before honing the edge. I don't know whether it is sharper than it was new or if it just seems really sharp because, before it was honed, it was dull. I don't think you can do that with the cupped carbide inserts.

[Dave Jain]

I started turning as a teenager,marriage, kids ,work , etc got in the way for some time. Started bowl making again after retirement. Bought a grinding set up,spent a lot of time trying to sharpen tools. Happened to see the carbide yools, bought a set of four. Best thing I ever did. Now I spend my time turning not sharpening. Learning how to use them is the key. I get a finish that need a little sanding with 220 and love got a finished bowl. I think part of the problem is not wanting to give up the old ways. Like giving up cursive, learning computers,using calculator and the every body gets a participation. I've got a bunch of hss tools for sale cheap.
Sorry if I offended any one but that's just my take on it,I lovey carbide tools.

[David Walser]

Dave -- I'm glad you love your carbide tools. I have carbide tools in my arsenal and use them regularly. However, you're fooling yourself if you believe carbide tools are a perfect substitute for traditional tools. For most woods and in most situations, a bevel supported cut simply leaves a better surface than does a scraping cut. Also, there are some things that simply cannot be turned with a carbide tool. For example, take a look at the finials Cindy Drozda turns. Those fine, crisp, details are made possible by the very long, thin, bevel of her vortex tool (or her detail gouge before she started using the vortex tool). Carbide tools simply don't fit in those tight spaces.

So, keep using your carbide tools! They have opened woodturning up to many who might have been dissuaded by the need to master traditional tools. That's a very good thing. For most items, it's simply a matter of personal preference. Once a bowl has been sanded, it's impossible to tell what tools were used to make it. So, who should care whether it was made with carbide or traditional tools? I certainly don't! What I care about is the beauty of the wood, the feel of the curve in my hands, etc. You, and your carbide tools, would be welcome in my shop. I hope you'd welcome me and my traditional tools in yours.

[Edward Weber]

Well said David Waiser
Too many want to square off into their own camps and argue about one or the other, as if that's the only choice. Personally I don't use them, I do have some replaceable tip hollowing tools but no "carbide turning tools".
Whatever tool gets the job done for you is usually the right answer, though there are major differences in the way they cut that can not be dismissed. These differences in edge geometry, edge presentation angle, bevel cutting (shear) or scraping all contribute to the process. It's not an either/or situation.
JMHO

[Randy Heinemann]

Like all woodworking, the most enjoyment comes from making things (for me at least) whether the "things" are bowls, hollow forms, furniture, cabinets, or just something like a jig for my shop. The tools use are just the means to get that satisfaction. If someone feels comfortable using certain tools and gets the result he/she wants, then that's the tools they should use. I started out turning about 3-4 years ago and used exclusively carbide insert tools because I didn't want to learn about sharpening gouges, etc. or buy more equipment and jigs to sharpen the HSS tools. Little by little I wasn't satisfied with the result on some pieces and realized that, with a minimal investment in my already owned Tormek (which I never used for much of anything else) I could sharpen my bowl gouges quickly and with excellent results. I have way too many turning tools, but I use my HSS gouges and scrapers most of the time now, but still use the carbide tools when I have some problems I can't seem to solve on a piece with my gouges. I have always felt that everyone gets comfortable with tools that they use frequently and, over time, they get the best results with those tools, whether they are "accepted" best result tools or not. So, why not use what makes woodworking and turning fun and satisfying.

To Dave Jain - Having said that, if you already own good HSS steel tools and sharpening tools, I'd keep them and use the tools when they might work best or if you can't get a result you want. To me, it's the same issue that has come up for years in woodworking with hand tools versus power tools. Use the best tool available to you for the job. At least that's what gives me the most satisfaction with a hobby that really is all about satisfaction and good results.

[Richard Coers]

Sharpening with a Wolverine system takes about 30-60 seconds no matter what tool you have in your hand. You spend a lot more time sanding the wood when using a carbide scraper than what I do in sharpening. I also read a ton of guys talking about how they use diamond cards to sharpen carbide, so sharpening for most is never eliminated.

[Tim Tucker]

Interesting that you don't even mention the skew. If not, then the answer to why you don't mention the skew is likely the same answer to the popularity of carbide tools.

John - I think most turners would agree that the skew is the most feared of all HSS "traditional" turning tools. So, it would be at the opposite end of the spectrum when comparing gouges vs carbides - in terms of "ease of use". Not a carbide fan myself, other than some of the Hunter cupped carbides for hollowing, and coring. But it may also be one of - if not THE most versatile tools - in the hands of someone with experience with it. Allan Batty, and a few others have done demonstrations using only a skew for the entire demo.

Mikey - YES...I do believe that like much of the world around us, carbides provide a mis-perceived "short-cut" for new turners. But they do so with severe limitations of lack of flexibility, and less desirable finish cuts on the wood. Said differently - if a turner is proficient with the gouge - he can potentially turn an entire object with ONE tool...the gouge. I can't see that as possible with carbides. Typical carbides are merely scrapers. I have not ever seen a scraper capable of providing as clean a cut ( since it does not actually "cut"...) on a finishing pass. IMHO, carbides...the regular flat top ones and the "negative rake" type are the the duct tape of wood turning....sure, duct tape will hold things together - for a while...but it is normally not considered the correct choice of "correct repair methods" .

[David Walser]

Tim -- Two comments: First, you're replying to a thread from 2017. It popped up on everyone's screen because someone else responded yesterday.

Second, while I don't disagree with anything that you say. I do think it's fair to point out that carbide tools are sometimes the right tool for the job. For example, when turning resins, a scraping cut will often leave a better surface than a bevel supported cut. (It's only speculation, but I believe the heat generated by rubbing the bevel can soften some plastics, causing them to cut less cleanly.) For this reason, I keep some carbide tools in my shop. (I like to cast and turn my own blanks.) Will a traditional HSS scraper do as well? Sure, but resins tend to dull tools very quickly, so why not go with carbide? Similarly, I know some turners that use carbide tools for roughing out their turnings and then use traditional tools for their finishing cuts. That's not my preference, but I can't fault it. They spend less time sharpening their spindle roughing gouge than I do!

Bonus point: If new turners get into the hobby with carbide tools, I don't see how the rest of us are harmed by it. For most of what we turn, carbide tools work just fine. After a bit of sanding, no one can tell what kind of tool was used to make bowl or pepper mill. Eventually, some of them may want to emulate the crisp details of Cindy Drozda's finials. Then, they'll learn that carbide tools cannot do everything. Or, perhaps, they'll tire of sanding as much an learn how to use traditional tools much of their turning. This isn't a sport. Their aren't rules of competition, and using carbide tools isn't cheating.

[Reed Gray]

No clue as to where the idea started that scrapers don't cut. I use scrapers far more than most, they do a 'scraping cut'. I can send out long ribbons of wood from thick to paper thin depending on what I am cutting. As I have said before, the popularity of the carbide tools is due at least in part because they are small easy to control scrapers. On some of the wooden bowls I make, I can get 180 grit sanding surfaces from using just scrapers, though I prefer to use a gouge for the finish cuts and then shear scrape. Don't believe me? Well, look up my videos on Shear Scraping and Scary Scrapers. I don't use the carbide ones because I want one that is easy to resharpen. Look up the Big Ugly tool, which is in the Scary Scrapers video.

In end grain cutting, like boxes, you can get 220 grit sanding surfaces. Generally much cleaner cuts in end grain than in side grain.

robo hippy

[Paul Haus]

I realize this is an old thread, but the same comments have existed for probably 50+ years, though not on the same tools. I've seen similar comments on carbide tipped table saw blades. Then it was router bits, then shaper cutters and bandsaw blades, etc. Every side of every item has both proponents and opponents, IMO neither is fully right nor fully wrong. Personally, I have carbon steel, HSS and carbide tipped turning tools. Each has a situation where it does better than the others, just pick the right tool for the situation and enjoy the turning. If nothing else, each person has their own shop and their own tools and can do as they see fit.
My 2 cents.

[Edward Weber]

Paul, I don't disagree with you but the main point is that the tools you mentioned didn't require you to change the way you use the tool.

Carbide tip turning tools are scrapers and are typically used level at or near the center-line.
This is why some question "Are carbide tools causing us to lose skill in turning"?
Holding a tool level at the center-line is most often seen being performed by a machine, without much if any operator (human) input. By using a "set" cutting angle at a "set" height, some argue that this takes away many of the variables (skills) required when using traditional tools.

Traditional turning tools have no real limits on how they are used or presented to the wood due to the innumerable cutting edge shapes and angles. This approach requires the operator to change or adjust the cutting angle by manipulating the tool in real time, for the best performance. This is the skill that some fear is in danger of being lost.

Both have pro's and con's, it all depends on what you want to achieve and how you want to get their.

[Paul Haus]

Ed
I don't know I'd go so far as to say all carbide turning tools are scrapers. I will admit that because of the thickness of the shaft of the tool it can limit your angle of attack due to the physical limitation of the tool but the sharpness, hardness and angle the cutter is ground determines IMO whether it's a scraper or a cutter. I've looked at a couple of different brands of carbide tools and there is a difference in grinds on them IMO, though I couldn't actually measure them in the store. Just did some turning last week with both HSS and carbide tooling. both sharp. Both cut and I will say that carbide worked better encountering end grain than the HSS cutters did.
To me it's like trying to teach a student to turn something round using a skew vs. a gouge. I've taught a few people to turn over the years and it's the exceptional student that can pick up using a skew faster than a gouge.
IMO turning should be fun vs. frustrating. If someone can turn something they're proud of using carbide tools then that's a positive item, vs. throwing up their hands in frustration and walking away from turning totally. It's fun to watch someone that's mastered some basic skills start experimenting with other tools and techniques and see them starting to master that too.
That's the point IMO, fire up the imagination and try something new and watch their eyes light up as they do something new to them.
My 2 cents.
Paul

[David Walser]

...
I don't know I'd go so far as to say all carbide turning tools are scrapers. I will admit that because of the thickness of the shaft of the tool it can limit your angle of attack due to the physical limitation of the tool but the sharpness, hardness and angle the cutter is ground determines IMO whether it's a scraper or a cutter. ...

Paul -- I believe the issue is one of turning jargon. Turners frequently say scrapers are not cutting tools, when what they mean is that scrapers do not make bevel supported cuts. Yes, a scraper may cut, rather than tear, wood fibers. But, in general, a scraping cut does not leave as clean a surface as does a bevel supported cut. Similarly, a shear scrape leaves a cleaner surface then does a 'regular' scraping cut and a shear (bevel supported) cut is cleaner than a peeling cut. But, they're all cuts. It's just not as efficient to repeat the word 'cut' whenever we're talking about scraping. Nor is it efficient to always say bevel supported when we're talking about cutting. That's the origin of 'scrapers aren't cutting tools'.

Of course, some carbide tools do make bevel supported cuts. The tools from Mike Hunter are a good example.

[Edward Weber]

Well stated David, I think that just about covers what I was going to say, thanks.
The only thing I would add is that "there are always exceptions"
The original question was "Are carbide tools causing us to lose skill in turning"?
I would say yes. If all you use are carbide replaceable tip tools, there are many aspects of creating a turned wood object that no longer be considered, some would say lost.
That doesn't mean that the turning isn't good or the person is less of a turner. It just means one person has a different skill set than the other.

[Neil Strong]

Quite the walking dead thread this one... it won't lie down and die... :~}

If I said that I have one carbide tipped tool and about 30 HSS tools of varying pedigrees and that the last time I got the carbide out was about 5yrs ago when I had a stone filled root ball that I wanted to protect my HSS tools from, then I have probably given my perspective on this question.

Any issues I have with carbide woodturning tools are not to do with the metal but more with the tool design.

Traditionally pattern makers scraped (often slowly) to achieve precise dimensions and they had little interest in surface finish, whereas woodturners aimed for speed and minimal tear out using gouges and skews.

The flat carbide tips that were adopted from metal engineering were flat and more suited to scraping cuts and thus became their predominant method of use.

To satisfy my curiosity, I did try using the regular flat top carbide tips to do bevel rubbing cuts early in their popularity. Like V15 tools, I found the carbides in them are too large to give a very keen edge, but keep cutting in a fashion for much longer than HSS. They do particularly well in our very hard woods.

But, there is a reason why gouges have been used for almost ever in both spindle and faceplate woodturning and why we ended up with the design of the modern bowl gouge... it is optimised for cutting inside bowls.

Yes, you can scrape out almost all of the inside of a bowl (some prefer to do that, like Reed does), but most of us prefer a bowl gouge with a well formed flute profile to do that.

Down here we experimented with carbide tips with flute profiles like those found on most bowl gouges. They performed well with our hard and abrasive woods, but initial cost and the requirement to also have a diamond wheel grinder for just those tips became issues with going ahead with them. The small size of our market was probably another factor.

See attached report in the following link...

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/try-tungstan-carbide-bowl-gouge-207130/3#post2048883