Biscuit Joiner

[Bill Adamsen]

Building some custom drawers at 12-1/4" tall which required joining boards to get that height. I had planed down stock on hand and felt it would be faster to add either domino or biscuit to help align the material for gluing (it was close to the final dimension), as well as improve the strength. It was a toss up as to which machine to grab, and the biscuit joiner won. Short of it is, I used the Porter Cable Biscuit Joiner and couldn't help but marvel at what a wonderful tool it is. I changed over the PC's cord so that I could use it with the Festool vacuum setup in my shop, hence the green tail hanging out the back of the PC.

I'm curious ... how many of you that have a domino still use the biscuit or lamello ... and are there specific projects for which you feel it is uniquely well suited?

[Andrew J. Coholic]

We’ve had a genuine Lamello machine (well actually 4 of them) since the 80’s. Currently use a top 20 and zeta p2 in the shop.

Also use a domino standard size machine for 6 years. Both are very useful and have their place in the shop.

Lamello biscuits are faster, much cheaper and in many cases a better solution depending what you are doing. Dominos are also very good for what they do- but in some cases overkill or not the best choice.

We use both all the time. I also have converted our two Lamello machines to the Festool pigtails.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Just to be clear imo neither replace the other. Dominos excellent where strength is required vs a biscuit as in furniture joints. Biscuits are used on our shop mainly for alignment or where the strength of a deeper domino tenon is not necessary.

[Derek Cohen]

Dominos are deep and biscuits are wide. I would rather use a biscuit, like a spline, to reinforce a mitre than a domino.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josh Kocher]

I sold my Freud biscuit joiner shortly after getting the Domino. I didn't like the Freud unit much in the first place, but it really seemed lacking after I got used to the Domino.

I use the 4mm dominos if it's just for alignment.

If I had a machine that I liked using, something like a Lamello, I am sure I would have kept it and still be using both where appropriate... but I don't see adding one now, Domino will do it all.

[Sam Murdoch]

I use my Lamello to attach face frames to cabinetry. There is enough accurate registration (I flush my ff to my cabinet sides and bottom) but also enough play to make attaching a multi cabinet face frame assembly easy. The Domino for this application is too accurate and unforgiving. Otherwise for nearly everything else requiring accurate alignment, I use the Dominos.

[Myk Rian]

I built this scroll saw stand with 30 biscuits. It isn't coming apart any time soon.

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[Dave Zellers]

I use my Lamello to attach face frames to cabinetry. There is enough accurate registration (I flush my ff to my cabinet sides and bottom) but also enough play to make attaching a multi cabinet face frame assembly easy. The Domino for this application is too accurate and unforgiving.

So True. I don't have a Domino and use traditional M&T for those joints but biscuits just excel for things like face frames and miters that benefit from a little wiggle room. The key is to use the right amount of glue. Too little and they obviously won't work as designed and too much and they can take forever to completely dry, possibly causing the dimples that so many people have lamented about. Use a brush on the biscuit and a thin paddle inside the cut. I have cut into overloaded biscuit joints 4-5 days after assembly and the glue pocket was still tacky.

[Cary Falk]

I have 2 biscuit jointers. The full size one that does FF-20 and a small Ryobi that does R1-R3. I bought a used Domino earlier this year. I sold it a couple of weeks ago. You probably won't hear that too often. I am still keeping my biscuit jointers.

[Nick Decker]

Myk, I really like that stand. Functional elegance.

[Charles Lent]

I have a DeWalt biscuit joiner and a Leigh FMT Pro jig, both bought before the Dominos became available. I use the biscuits more for alignment than strength. In fact, I no longer glue them in if using them in a panel, because I had to remake a table top that I built using biscuits and gluing them in one day. Then final sanded the top flat and finished the table a day later. Two weeks after finishing the table I could see biscuit shaped dents in the smooth finished top where the glue on the biscuits had thoroughly dried and shrunk, pulling the dents in the top. I had to make a whole new top for that table and have avoided gluing biscuits in flat panel assemblies ever since. I glue the board edges, but avoid gluing the biscuits.

When strength is needed, I use the FMT for the mortises and matching tenons, or for just the mortises and then use floating tenons. It depends on the application which way I go. Set up of the FMT likely takes longer than the Domino, but it's just as fast when using it.

Charley

[Edwin Santos]

I have a DeWalt biscuit joiner and a Leigh FMT Pro jig, both bought before the Dominos became available. I use the biscuits more for alignment than strength. In fact, I no longer glue them in if using them in a panel, because I had to remake a table top that I built using biscuits and gluing them in one day. Then final sanded the top flat and finished the table a day later. Two weeks after finishing the table I could see biscuit shaped dents in the smooth finished top where the glue on the biscuits had thoroughly dried and shrunk, pulling the dents in the top. I had to make a whole new top for that table and have avoided gluing biscuits in flat panel assemblies ever since. I glue the board edges, but avoid gluing the biscuits.

When strength is needed, I use the FMT for the mortises and matching tenons, or for just the mortises and then use floating tenons. It depends on the application which way I go. Set up of the FMT likely takes longer than the Domino, but it's just as fast when using it.

Charley

Just of curiosity, how close to the top surface would you estimate the biscuit slots were? In other words, how much wood between the top of the biscuit slot and the surface of the table.
Also, what was the table top made from? Solid lumber or some type of composite material? Thanks

[Jacob Mac]

I must have absolutely no skill with my biscuit joiner. Or I need to seriously calibrate it. I have never had any luck with it, especially for alignment purposes. My domino, on the other hand, is just dead nuts accurate.

[Sam Murdoch]

Just of curiosity, how close to the top surface would you estimate the biscuit slots were? In other words, how much wood between the top of the biscuit slot and the surface of the table.
Also, what was the table top made from? Solid lumber or some type of composite material? Thanks

I've never had any issues with biscuits telegraphing over years and years and projects after project, EXCEPT ONCE :rolleyes:. That was all my fault as I built a coffee table top and was unhappy with repeated efforts of finishing so I sanded it 5 times and refinished until I was happy. Lost quite a bit of thickness in the refinishing. In that case I saw the biscuit dimples develop. I still see them.:D

#10 biscuits centered on stock less than 3/4" and #20s for anything thicker. I keep the biscuits centerlined or lower in the stock from the top face. Sometimes I have doubled biscuits with no issues staying roughly 3/8" down (up) centerline of biscuit to face of project. Yellow glue predominantly. Maybe if I flipped my work over I would have seen dimples on some projects but I was never aware of any issues. For whatever that's worth, I wouldn't be hesitant to use biscuits.

[mark conger]

When I first read the post I thought you were talking about drawer box construction. I have built drawers using biscuits and found it fast and strong. I have a Festool and experimented building boxes with dominos as well (hopefully both photos come through- domino vs. biscuit vs dovetail construction). I am sure the domino is stronger in this case but for customer drawers and prefinished plywood I like the biscuit approach better. Of course dovetails are the premier method for strength, but for plywood I think the end result is cleaner with biscuits since you do not see end grain.

[peter gagliardi]

I use my Lamello to attach face frames to cabinetry. There is enough accurate registration (I flush my ff to my cabinet sides and bottom) but also enough play to make attaching a multi cabinet face frame assembly easy. The Domino for this application is too accurate and unforgiving. Otherwise for nearly everything else requiring accurate alignment, I use the Dominos.
This almost implies that a Lamello machine is less accurate than a Domino, which is simply untrue.
The true Lamello machine is easily as accurate as a Domino machine.
Certainly there is probably more movement available longitudinally with the length of the Lamello, than a Domino, but accuracy off an edge or face is equal.
I have both, and they are used for different applications.

[Edwin Santos]

This almost implies that a Lamello machine is less accurate than a Domino, which is simply untrue.
The true Lamello machine is easily as accurate as a Domino machine.
Certainly there is probably more movement available longitudinally with the length of the Lamello, than a Domino, but accuracy off an edge or face is equal.
I have both, and they are used for different applications.

I agree with you. I have a Lamello Top 21 and while I don't own a Domino, I have used one. There is a little overlap between the two machines, but for the most part, they are different animals that excel at different functions. I believe there is a general lack of understanding in the North American market on the applications of a biscuit machine. This is further aggravated by the fact that there are substandard machines out there from certain manufacturers whereas the single Festool offering of the Domino is a high quality tool. I can never understand why so many people think biscuits are primarily for alignment in panel glue ups. Where they really excel is corner joints i.e. drawer boxes, carcases, partitions, shelves, especially in composite materials. Also, attachment of moldings, face frames.

I would never build a mortise and tenon joint with a biscuit joiner, but then I would never build a drawer box with dominos. Especially in 1/2" (12mm) material.

Also, even a mediocre biscuit joiner can become much more accurate if you mount it to a shop made table and use it like a stationary production machine.

[Edwin Santos]

Sometimes I see the comment that biscuits add little or no strength. Try making a box with properly made biscuit joints and once cured, try breaking it apart and you will see just how tenaciously those things hold.

[Sam Murdoch]

This almost implies that a Lamello machine is less accurate than a Domino, which is simply untrue.
The true Lamello machine is easily as accurate as a Domino machine.
Certainly there is probably more movement available longitudinally with the length of the Lamello, than a Domino, but accuracy off an edge or face is equal.
I have both, and they are used for different applications.

Try attaching a complex multi cabinet face frame with biscuits or dominos centered approximately every 8" to 10" on the verticals and horizontals of a ganged up set of cabinets and you will understand that the Domino is unforgiving but the biscuits are excellent for this process. There is no alignment compromise as regards to the edges of the face frame flushing to the inside faces of the boxes with either the Domino or the Lamello (not an inexpensive knock off). Where the dominos are unforgiving however and the biscuits excel is in the side to side play. The dominos are exact fit (unless you elongate the slots). The football shape of the biscuits allows for enough slide on, as they move a bit left to right in their slots, to allow the face frame to slip over with a some block and hammer tapping even if the guy who placed the biscuits and glue into the slots was a bit casual. :rolleyes:

I'm not at all suggesting that the biscuits result in less accurate work as regards establishing alignment of faces but if you need to move your pieces left or right to align your registration marks the biscuits (in my experience) are far more forgiving than the dominos - again - unless you elongate the slots - which most time I prefer NOT to do.

[Karl Kaucher]

It's been my experience that deformation of flat surfaces, as you describe, is frequently caused by placing the biscuit cavities too close to the surface - as you observed with your table top. One has to consider the thickness of material and composition of the material when deciding the depth for the biscuit cavities. Too close to the soon-to-be-finished surface, and you'll see it plainly. I believe that's where Edwin Santos was going with his recent post.

[Charles Lent]

Just of curiosity, how close to the top surface would you estimate the biscuit slots were? In other words, how much wood between the top of the biscuit slot and the surface of the table.
Also, what was the table top made from? Solid lumber or some type of composite material? Thanks

The panels were a little less than 2/4, probably closer to 5/8. They started out at just under 3/4. I always center the biscuits as close as I can get them, so 1/4" or so between the biscuit and the surface. It was solid Fir, not a lamination at all. Yeah, I know, soft wood, but the project called for it.

Charley

[Cary Falk]

All the hate for the biscuit jointer seemed to start when Norm went off the air.

[Chris Fournier]

I don't have a Domino but I do have a slot mortiser. I love using it,a Domino is would be redundant for me. I have a biscuit joiner and it is an essential tool in my shop. I have made sure that it is properly set up and it does great work. Quick, inexpensive, effective. Folks who say that biscuits don't make strong joints have not done the destructive testing that I have I guess. Do biscuits make the strongest joints? Nope, but they make joints that are strong enough for many applications.