Unable to sharpen plane iron, sharpening equipment suggestions needed

[Josh Hutchinson]

I'm working on restoring an old plane. The iron in it was in pretty bad shape, with the cutting edge far from perpendicular to the iron, so I elected to replace it with a Hock iron. My understanding is that the Hock irons should come in pretty good shape and just need a little bit of work to sharpen them initially.

My current equipment:
8" DMT DuoSharp bench stones (220, 325, 600, 1200 mesh)
Norton waterstone (4000/8000 grit)
Veritas honing guide

I started by using the DMT bench stones to lap the Norton waterstone. I started with 220 mesh and finished with 600 mesh.

Next I moved on to the blade, and began by attempting to lap the back side. Using the 220 and 325 mesh DMT stones, I worked for several hours on the 1" nearest the cutting edge. I didn't make a whole lot of progress, and the time investment was significantly more than I expected.

Wondering if the Hock iron was not as flat as originally thought, I took it to a machine shop and had the back stone ground flat. It was only necessary for them to remove .001", so clearly it was pretty flat to begin with and my DMT stones weren't removing much material.

After getting the iron back from the machine shop, I cleaned off my DMT stones with soap and a nylon brush hoping that would improve their performance and the blade would just need some quick work at this point. Not the case at all. Another 15 minutes of work and it became apparent the DMT stones are not removing material evenly. I don't think they're flat, and I don't think they're doing much.

What equipment do I need to pick up that will allow me to successfully sharpen a new plane iron? I think the DMT stones are making it more difficult than it needs to be. I am thinking I might scrap the DMT stones, add a 250/1000 grit combination waterstone and a Norton flattening stone.

Thanks

[Steven Mikes]

Josh, I had a similar experience with the exact same DMT stones you have. I bought the 220, 600, and 1200 from sharpeningsupplies.com, the 220 seemed to cut nicely at first but then it quickly because useless. I tried cleaning it per DMT website's suggested methods but to no use. sharpeningsupplies.com has a 90 day satisfaction guarantee so I took advantage of it and returned them.

Instead I purchased an Atoma 400 grit diamond plate which are supposedly much flatter and more durable. I also got the Norton waterstone set from sharpeningsupplies which has a 220/1000 stone in addition to the same 4000/8000 you have (and the flattening stone which I haven't used yet). I'm mainly using the Atoma diamond plate to flatten the waterstones, but I've used it directly for rapid metal removal and have had no complaints so far. The coarser waterstones also cut very nicely. Seriously I understand your frustration, I spent more than an hour rubbing the back of a plane blade back and forth on that DMT stone and accomplishing nothing.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Josh,

You do not mention if you have an O1 or A2 blade.

Hock irons need more work than a Veritas blade to flatten the back. Though getting a back perfectly flat can be a challenge to do by hand. My O1 Hock blade took similar amounts of time to get flat and shiny. Though if it mates well to the chip breaker it is likely flat enough for most work.

jtk

[Josh Hutchinson]

Josh, I had a similar experience with the exact same DMT stones you have. I bought the 220, 600, and 1200 from sharpeningsupplies.com, the 220 seemed to cut nicely at first but then it quickly because useless. I tried cleaning it per DMT website's suggested methods but to no use. sharpeningsupplies.com has a 90 day satisfaction guarantee so I took advantage of it and returned them.

Instead I purchased an Atoma 400 grit diamond plate which are supposedly much flatter and more durable. I also got the Norton waterstone set from sharpeningsupplies which has a 220/1000 stone in addition to the same 4000/8000 you have (and the flattening stone which I haven't used yet). I'm mainly using the Atoma diamond plate to flatten the waterstones, but I've used it directly for rapid metal removal and have had no complaints so far. The coarser waterstones also cut very nicely. Seriously I understand your frustration, I spent more than an hour rubbing the back of a plane blade back and forth on that DMT stone and accomplishing nothing.

Thanks Steven, it's reassuring to know it's not just me. Also appreciate the Atoma 400 suggestion; I may look into purchasing that instead of the Norton flattening stone.

[Josh Hutchinson]

Howdy Josh,

You do not mention if you have an O1 or A2 blade.

Hock irons need more work than a Veritas blade to flatten the back. Though getting a back perfectly flat can be a challenge to do by hand. My O1 Hock blade took similar amounts of time to get flat and shiny. Though if it mates well to the chip breaker it is likely flat enough for most work.

jtk

I don't honestly remember :) I bought the plane and Hock iron several years ago and am just getting around to finishing the project. I suspect I went for the O1 steel. I will say that I spent at least eight hours attempting to sharpen the original blade with the same DMT stones a few years back and was getting nowhere with that either.

I'm almost positive the DMT stones aren't flat because I used them to lap my waterstone. After getting the iron back from the surface grinder at the machine shop, my DMT stones were taking off material in the middle while my waterstone was taking off material on the edges. This suggests the diamond stones have high spots in the center. A straight edge indicates the same.

[Josh Hutchinson]

I've ordered the Atoma 400 diamond plate and a Shapton 1000 grit ceramic stone to compliment my Norton 4000/8000 stone. Will report back next week with results.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm working on restoring an old plane. The iron in it was in pretty bad shape, with the cutting edge far from perpendicular to the iron, so I elected to replace it with a Hock iron. My understanding is that the Hock irons should come in pretty good shape and just need a little bit of work to sharpen them initially.

My current equipment:
8" DMT DuoSharp bench stones (220, 325, 600, 1200 mesh)
Norton waterstone (4000/8000 grit)
Veritas honing guide

I started by using the DMT bench stones to lap the Norton waterstone. I started with 220 mesh and finished with 600 mesh.

Next I moved on to the blade, and began by attempting to lap the back side. Using the 220 and 325 mesh DMT stones, I worked for several hours on the 1" nearest the cutting edge. I didn't make a whole lot of progress, and the time investment was significantly more than I expected.

Wondering if the Hock iron was not as flat as originally thought, I took it to a machine shop and had the back stone ground flat. It was only necessary for them to remove .001", so clearly it was pretty flat to begin with and my DMT stones weren't removing much material.

After getting the iron back from the machine shop, I cleaned off my DMT stones with soap and a nylon brush hoping that would improve their performance and the blade would just need some quick work at this point. Not the case at all. Another 15 minutes of work and it became apparent the DMT stones are not removing material evenly. I don't think they're flat, and I don't think they're doing much.

What equipment do I need to pick up that will allow me to successfully sharpen a new plane iron? I think the DMT stones are making it more difficult than it needs to be. I am thinking I might scrap the DMT stones, add a 250/1000 grit combination waterstone and a Norton flattening stone.

Thanks

Given your likely volume I'd suggest getting some rolls of coarse-grit Aluminum-Oxide PSA sandpaper and a sheet of untempered 3/8" glass. It'll be dead flat and is probably the fastest of the low-investment options.

Coarse waterstones tend to dish quickly. One way to think of it is that coarse stones lose more thickness each time the stone "sheds" a layer of used-up abrasive. Coarse waterstones therefore don't have as much of an economic advantage over sandpaper as finer ones do. I'm not a huge fan of coarse oilstones, either, as they tend to be slow and/or soft compared to sandpaper.

If you can tolerate the up-front and hassle one very fast and accurate way to go for flattening is diamond paste on mild steel or cast iron laps (accurate because the laps don't dish very much). It's also a bit cheaper over the long run than sandpaper. That's what I do, but I don't think it will be worth it unless you plan to be maintaining a lot of blades.

At this point I only use diamond plates to flatten stones. Like you and others who've posted I've had bad experiences using them directly on metal, as the abrasive "slows down" too quickly. If I'm going to use diamonds I'll use either compounds or lapping films, both of which allow me to replace the diamonds with fresh ones more frequently than with plates.

[Todd Stock]

What Patrick said - but AlZn 80 grit roll on 1/2" float glass for the first whack, then on to AlO and Imperial Wet/Dry for the finer grits. Don't have issues with getting a flat water stone off of the DuoSharp XC/C, but I suspect there are folks that assume flat, rather than get a straight edge on them before use. Easy enough to ask the vendor to send you a flat DuoSharp...then check it on a straightedge when received. Diamond plates get used here to quickly strip off a dull edge and flatten stones...cast iron and other metal flattening chores get abrasives and diamond paste for final polishing.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I've never liked diamond stones for back flattening. I've never really liked any coarse stones under 1000 grit, either. For a new or used iron that needed a lot of work, I'd use 80 grit PSA on a granite surface plate. You could use glass, too. A fresh sheet of 80 grit is significantly faster than any stone I have used, and on a large surface plate or glass sheet you can really go to town. Then switch to 150, then 220 grit paper. You can start with 150 or 220 grit as well, if there isn't too much pitting, etc. to remove. From there you should be able to jump to a good 1000 grit waterstone, then proceed with your 4k/8k Norton's.

My recommendations: I would not use the diamond stones for sharpening except for bevel work on rare occasions. Check their flatness with a straightedge...hopefully at least one of them is good...then use the coarsest good one to flatten your waterstones. Get a surface plate or glass sheet and some rolls of PSA abrasive in 80, 150, and 220 grit. Also, add a good 1000 grit waterstone (I think the Shapton Pro 1000 is excellent). This is a good stone to transition from sandpaper, and for beginning your sharpening routine if you have much wear to remove.

The 1000 grit waterstone is surprisingly fast at back flattening, much faster than my worn-in X-coarse DMT. With most new blades you wouldn't need to use anything coarser to flatten the back. I'm pretty sure that was the case with my Hock O1 iron, which did not arrive as perfectly dead flat as a Veritas iron but did not warrant using coarse sandpaper.

[Nathan Johnson]

What's the best source for glass acceptable for this application?

[Josh Hutchinson]

The 1000 grit waterstone is surprisingly fast at back flattening, much faster than my worn-in X-coarse DMT. With most new blades you wouldn't need to use anything coarser to flatten the back. I'm pretty sure that was the case with my Hock O1 iron, which did not arrive as perfectly dead flat as a Veritas iron but did not warrant using coarse sandpaper.

Excellent, I'm hoping the 1000 stone I ordered, once lapped with the Atoma 400 plate, will get the job done. The iron did come pretty flat; I don't think a whole lot of material needs to be removed.

[Patrick Chase]

What's the best source for glass acceptable for this application?

I buy offcuts from my local glass shop. Basically everything they sell is float glass and manufactured flat, so the main thing to watch out for is that it not be tempered as that can add a few mils of warp. I typically use 3/8" glass for the extra stiffness and durability.

[Nathan Johnson]

I buy offcuts from my local glass shop. Basically everything they sell if float glass and manufactured flat, so the main thing to watching out for is that it not be tempered as that can add a few mils of warp. I typically use 3/8" glass for the extra stiffness and durability.

Thank you.

[Kevin Smira]

One thing to note...as long as the edge is perpendicular to the sides, you don’t need to flatten but just the very edge of the back. Remember that a cutting edge is just two surfaces meeting...the need to flatten the back is a waste of time. Look up Rob Cosmans sharpening technique and you”lol see what I mean.

[Mike Holbrook]

Many people on these forums end up buying some sort of grinder, 8" or even 6" will do. Certainly the stones that come on most of these machines require some care on the users part to prevent over heating. I ended up with diamond wheels on mine, such wheels are much less prone to heating up and they can cut faster and longer too. The issue being that such wheels are not cheap.

Many have found that "hollow grinding" blades can reduce sharpening times and provide a more stable surface to rest on a stone.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

[William Fretwell]

Yes I'm one of them, bought a 10" slow water cooled wheel thing for Cdn$200. It gives you your whole life back! You can actually get back to wood work. It's very annoying that these crazy thick blades are such a pain to sharpen without such a machine. I'm keeping my bevel up jack just for shooting but I've replaced them all.

[Mike Holbrook]

I hear you William,
I used a Tomek, 10”, slow speed, water wheel for a couple years. I thought I could “grind” with it, and I guess if one is very, very, very......patient. The difference between the Tormek and my current 8” Delta, variable speed grinder with diamond wheels, has allowed me to “get back to wood work”. I am now able to camber and hollow grind the entire edge of a LV BU plane in 30 minuets or less, something I was not able to achieve with: stones, diamond plates or a water wheel ever. I should also add that I typically regrind plane blades at 30 degrees rather than the typical 25. Half of the time it takes me to do such a grind is spent checking progress with a magnifying light vs whatever model I am trying to copy. Eventually the “model” becomes etched in ones brain.

I am still a little paranoid about over heating blades. I do not allow plane blades to get more than warm to the touch during grinding. I suspect that someone less paranoid who regularly quenches their blade in oil or water could do the job faster.

[Patrick Chase]

I am still a little paranoid about over heating blades. I do not allow plane blades to get more than warm to the touch during grinding. I suspect that someone less paranoid who regularly quenches their blade in oil or water could do the job faster.

If you use a grinder then you need to be careful about your steels. A few examples suffice:

O1 is typically used at Rc59 or so, which corresponds to tempering at 500F. If you get a tool that hot on the grinder you will know about it, as that corresponds to a red-brown surface color. If you're grinding on an O1 tool at that hardness, then lack of discoloration means you didn't burn it.

Hock irons are also O1, but at about Rc62, which corresponds to tempering at a bit under 400F. As Ron himself has said in older SMC posts, that correponds to no surface discoloration or maybe a very faint straw color. You could grind one of his tools but notice no discoloration and think that everything was peachy, and yet still have lost a point or two of hardness.

Let's assume that some major maker hypothetically uses something very similar to Carpenter CTS-XHP (https://trugrit.com/~trug0412/CTS-XHP.pdf), and that they hypothetically temper it to Rc62.5. That would again correspond to 400F (or ~250F if they don't refrigerate after hardening, though I hope that's not the case) and a similar caution would apply. On a totally unrelated note, I'm pretty careful about grinding my PM-V11 irons, because I suspect that by the time they discolor noticeably they've already lost a fair bit of hardness.

An extreme example is a Japanese tool with water-hardened HCS tempered to Rc65 or so. Rc65 corresponds to tempering HCS at ~275F, so those tools should probably never see a dry grinder, period. If you have a very light touch you can probably get away with it, but the fundamental problem is that unless you happen to have a Versitron hardness tester laying around you'll never know for sure (and you can't really measure the edge anyway, so you'll never know even then).

As I've said here before, this is one of those situations where there is practical value (in terms of protecting your investment) in knowing what steel you're using and ideally how it was processed, though unfortunately the latter is impractical to determine analytically. Enough value to justify sending out a sample for XRF if you happen to use a whole lot of a particular "mystery steel".

[Brian Holcombe]

CBN wheels really help with that, but still you need to be careful with them as well. With full steel irons (not laminated) I remove the wear with 800 grit, then grind a hollow until the edge is thin then go to 3000 grit. I finish the process by lifting slightly on the finish stone then taking the burr off with a finish stone.

Grinding is a careful process, the best advice I can give is never grind to the edge. If you grind to the edge it will take multiple sharpenings before the blade acts correctly again.

I never work the back with a rough grit stone, it’s usually a good way to ruin the existing flatness .

Check diamond plates and check them every so often, I’ve had a few that were not flat and drove me a bit crazy for a day or two.

[Stewie Simpson]

Brian; I would assume the best advise wouldn't be to hollow grind the primary bevel on your Japanese laminated plane irons and chisels.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

CBN wheels really help with that, but still you need to be careful with them as well.

Yes, CBN wheels reduce heat dissipation into the steel by a significant factor (~4X IIRC in one paper I've read). Ditto for flat diamond lapping discs as George has advocated in the past.



Grinding is a careful process, the best advice I can give is never grind to the edge. If you grind to the edge it will take multiple sharpenings before the blade acts correctly again.

You probably know this, but sometimes you need to grind to the edge, for example to repair chipping, and in that case the key is to present the edge perpendicular to the wheel. In other words grind the edge straight back to wherever it needs to be, and then regrind the bevel separately instead of trying to do both at once. That technique works because it ensures that the edge that will be "kept" after grinding is ground for the bare minimum amount of time possible, and only then as part of a relatively "tall" vertical face such that it's amply supported (preventing fracturing) and has plenty of cross-sectional area to dissipate heat. When I regrind the bevel I then avoid grinding all the way to the edge, i.e. I leave a tiny vertical part at the tip that I only remove by hand, during honing. That adds some time to the process, but it keeps the performance reduction to a bare minimum.




Check diamond plates and check them every so often, I’ve had a few that were not flat and drove me a bit crazy for a day or two.

Every diamond plate I've ever owned that was not an Atoma was out by at least a hair, and even some of the Atomas were a tiny bit out of flat (their spec is +/- 1 mil, and all of them have met that, but most are quite a bit better). The only "diamond plates" I own that are bang on are my cast iron laps, mostly because I periodically lap them using a class-A surface plate (with a sacrificial plastic film to protect the plate, of course).

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian; I would assume the best advise wouldn't be to hollow grind the primary bevel on your Japanese laminated plane irons and chisels.

Stewie;

I don’t, I was very clear about that in the post.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree, Patrick, there are times when I do it but typically to fix something and at that I may re-hone a few times.

I have one Atoma plate that is now dished and really can’t understand why that happened all
of a sudden but the other two are very good.

[Patrick Chase]

I agree, Patrick, there are times when I do it but typically to fix something and at that I may re-hone a few times.

I have one Atoma plate that is now dished and really can’t understand why that happened all
of a sudden but the other two are very good.

Is it dished in the middle, or closer to 1/4 or 3/4 of its length?

If you look at how Atomas are made, they consist of a relatively thin and flexible steel-backed abrasive sheet laminated to a thicker aluminum blank. The abrasive sheet is attached to the blank using 3 strips of Nitto 5015 double-sided acrylic tape (great stuff, provided you don't care too much about ease of removal) at each end and in the center. If you hone tools on it then the abrasive sheet can "sag" in between the pieces of tape. That's why Stu advises never using the same Atoma plate for both stone-flattening and tool work.

I did have one Atoma go out of flat like that even though I didn't grind tools on it. I suspected at the time that one or more of the pieces of tape had "crept". In that instance I was able to delaminate the abrasive sheet from the underlying blank without bending it (a chore), clean it (even more of a chore), and tape it to a sheet of float glass using Nitto 5015 (I have a couple rolls). I still have that plate in service.

EDIT: The trick to removing Nitto 5015 is to be aware that most acrylic adhesives let go at about 200C, which is too low to do anything to the diamonds or the metallic bonds that retain them (the fact that similarly-bonded CBN grinding wheels work is testament to this).

[Brian Holcombe]

Ah, interesting that could certainly be the case it was the only plate I had used for tools for a time. Thanks for your insights!

[Mike Holbrook]

In regard to grinding hollow edges, I am not sure I understand the logic of grinding the narrow side of the bevel flat/dull and then using stones etc. to work that edge into a sharp surface. I understand the idea that the narrower edge heats up faster. I am all about speed sharpening/grinding so I can get back to woodworking. In my experience, grinding a flat edge and then working it on stones dramatically increases the time it takes to get the job done. Logically it seems one then has to work the back, less acute angle/edge of the hollow to get a sharp edge, assuming we are hollow grinding to create the two edges in the bevel that make finding and holding the bevel angle easier.

I tend to do the opposite, grinding down to the opposite surface all the way across the entire bevel. I find it faster to grind most of the bevel, down close to the other edge, then rest the iron until all the heat is gone. I just work slower and more carefully when I get close to the opposite side. My goal is to maximize the amount of work I do on the diamond wheel and minimize my time using the slower: stone, ceramic, diamond plate....I find it easier to adjust any issues on the thinner edge of the blade, which is easier to abrade away. If I loose a few degrees of hardness at the very edge I suspect it soon wears away with normal use and sharpening. One has to set priorities. I am mentioning this because the OP was asking about making the process easier.

Maybe Brian's rolling at the edge is how he achieves a similar result. Certainly different people learn specific techniques that work better for them and their priorities.

[Robert Engel]

Josh,

I have basically the same sharpening kit with the exception I have the larger Duo Sharp plates. I like the DiaSharp much better. I don't think the mesh plates last as long simply because there is not as much grit on them.

That being said, I have not been satsified with the coarse (black dot) plate. It wore out much faster than expected. The others (600, 800, 1250) seem to do fine. For flattening, I use a 250 grit water stone rather than buy a new coarse diamond plate.

Lubrication is very important with diamond plates, especially the mesh ones. I tend to avoid oil based lubricants. Soapy water, or window cleaner works fine but anything that keeps the slurry in suspension will do.

I also use the 4/8K Norton stones. I keep them flat with a Norton dressing stone (FYI don't trust it - I had to flatten mine before use). You don't need to go beyond coarse to flatten a water stone. I fear you will clog up a 600 grit diamond plate.

On a good quality iron, test the flatness first by marking the back with a sharpie and light passes over a fine stone. That being said, one Veritas iron I purchased took quite a bit of work to flatten, which surprised me.

Bottom line - I think your set up will work. I hollow grind the bevel on all my plane irons and chisels. This makes sharpening a much quicker, easier process, especially if honing freehand. I wouldn't invest hundreds of $'s in a power sharpening system. It is simply not cost effective unless you have a production shop.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike, you lost me a bit in that description but basically I work away the wear on a rough stone (800 grit in my case) this removes the wear bevel. The hollow is minimized at this point but still typically visible.

Next I regrind the hollow, now I'm down to two thin landing strips. I work these on a 3k stone. Finally I lift the blade on the finish stone for a few strokes and then remove the burr.

This is a departure from most because I'm sure most grind first, then work the bevel. A hollow is, IMO, hardly needed for rough stones like 800 grit, but it is nice to have for finer stones, so I like to have the hollow there for the 3k stone.

Again, this is not for Japanese tools or laminated tools in my shop.

[Pete Taran]

+1 about sharpening using a Tormek.

I haven't found it laborious or time consuming to sharpen a plane iron on a Tormek. A week or so ago I had an new/old smoother iron I needed to regrind and sharpen. I spent a couple of minutes on a high speed wheel getting it square and partially creating the bevel. I left about a 1/16" of thickness at the cutting edge. It's really pretty hard to get a blade so hot that it ruins the temper if you are holding to with your bare hands. Think about it, if you touch a 400 degree oven pan, you get an immediate burn. Your fingertips will tell you long before it ever even gets remotely close to that.

Once complete, just use the standard jig to complete the hollow grind. When you grade the stone with the coarse side of the dressing stone, it cuts very fast. When you draw a wire edge, remove from the jig and flatten the back. You can finish by buffing the back and cutting edge with the leather strop, or put a nice secondary bevel on the blade with your favorite high grit waterstone. The entire process took me about 15 minutes. Once it's sharp, it is super easy to regrind the bevel when it dulls.

The tormek is expensive, but it really is worth it. All that jazz about various stones, flattening techniques, paper types, just forget about it. Sharpening on the Tormek is fun instead of a chore. It's really that good. The best part is the machine comes with a dressing jig to get your stone round again if you dish the center or want to expose a fresh surface after repeated use.

It's awesome.

[Mike Holbrook]

Brian,
I am sort of a mobile unit at the moment. I have a business and home that I need tools at. We bought another home about a year ago. I am working on getting one ready to sell and the other ready to move into. The two homes are about an hours drive appart. I have tools split between locations and a set of mobile tools. Once I get moved into the new place and can get my sharpening station set up...I am sure I will do things more like you mention. We have 8-10 dogs at the moment, some appear, disappear....at the whim of our kids/young adults now. Closing one business, starting a new one and moving all the gear and dogs, turns out to burn a good deal of a 68 yr olds time. I am also trying to harvest wood from the 12 acres to take to the new location. I wish I had more time to do the projects I would like to be doing, maybe soon...

Strictly from a time consideration, with a reduced set of two ceramic Spyderco stones, more polishing stones, which I typically have in my mobile kit. I try to get as much done on the grinder as I can. If I understand the more detailed information Brian provides above I think my routine is not far from his consdering the reduced # of stones I use. Most of my sharpening gear is either packed or not where I am. I need to build a sharpening station at the new place in a specific spot which will take some time.

Pete, I have had less luck with my Tormek. I should probably mention that I was trying to work the bevels on Lee Valley BU, thick plane blades, which totally frustrated me. I might also add that Contrary to what I originally thought I would do, I work a good deal of rough “green” wood. I typically regrind 30 degree, more cambered, hollow ground irons. I also own an old Tormek, that used a different system to lock the bar/rest in place. My bar can deflect quite a good deal, which I discovered relatively recently. I will give mine another shot after I repair the bar mount and get my new sharpening station made.

[Patrick Chase]

+1 about sharpening using a Tormek.

I haven't found it laborious or time consuming to sharpen a plane iron on a Tormek. A week or so ago I had an new/old smoother iron I needed to regrind and sharpen. I spent a couple of minutes on a high speed wheel getting it square and partially creating the bevel. I left about a 1/16" of thickness at the cutting edge. It's really pretty hard to get a blade so hot that it ruins the temper if you are holding to with your bare hands. Think about it, if you touch a 400 degree oven pan, you get an immediate burn. Your fingertips will tell you long before it ever even gets remotely close to that.

Once complete, just use the standard jig to complete the hollow grind. When you grade the stone with the coarse side of the dressing stone, it cuts very fast. When you draw a wire edge, remove from the jig and flatten the back. You can finish by buffing the back and cutting edge with the leather strop, or put a nice secondary bevel on the blade with your favorite high grit waterstone. The entire process took me about 15 minutes. Once it's sharp, it is super easy to regrind the bevel when it dulls.

The tormek is expensive, but it really is worth it. All that jazz about various stones, flattening techniques, paper types, just forget about it. Sharpening on the Tormek is fun instead of a chore. It's really that good. The best part is the machine comes with a dressing jig to get your stone round again if you dish the center or want to expose a fresh surface after repeated use.

It's awesome.

I have and love the Tormek. It's sort of like the old Jobo rotary fim processors (also a fine product of Sweden) in that there doesn't seem to be all that much there for the money, but once you start using it you realize that it's all been thought out to the Nth degree and Just Works. I particularly like their drill-sharpening jig.

With that said I think that it's important to distinguish as you did between sharpening and grinding. The Tormek is great for sharpening, but a bit slow if you need to remove a bunch of material to repair chipping or something like that. As you describe, that's best done on a conventional grinder. Most of the complaints I see are from people trying to use it to hog off steel, and then imprecisely describing that as "sharpening".

w.r.t. it being hard to burn an iron while holding it by hand, that depends on the tip geometry. If you first grind the edge at 90 deg and then shape the bevel as you described then the tip has plenty of cross-sectional area, and can't get much warmer than the body of the iron. In that case what you say is true. If on the other hand you try to grind the bevel all the way to a wire edge then you end up with a lot of heat being dumped into a very fine/thin tip (high thermal resistance path to the body of the iron). In that case you can get drastic local heating sufficient to burn the edge without making the entire iron hot or even warm to the touch.

[Pete Taran]

Patrick,

Yes indeed. Like most things, common sense and experience is everything. Like you, even though I have been using my Tormek for years, it never ceases to amaze me how there is a reason for everything they did. Some things aren't even apparent until you do a particular task and then it becomes obvious.

While I grind freehand, Tormek does sell the same bar jig that you use on the watergrinder. I bought one and some day plan to put it in front of a dedicated vertical grinder. The idea is you can grind and start the bevel on the high speed grinder and then move directly to the water cooled grinder without changing anything or moving the blade.

As an aside, I actually bought a second Tormek so I could have the 6000 grit water wheel permanently installed. I can move from coarse grind to finish grind complete with secondary bevel in minutes. Really takes the drudgery out of sharpening and it's so fast, you don't have to fuss about if you can shave angstroms off of tissue paper. It's plenty sharp off the wheel to use as is, and when it dulls, just repeat. Its so fast, it's fun and not a bother.

[Mike Holbrook]

Patrick makes a very valid comment IMHO, regarding grinding vs sharpening. I was admittedly trying to do serious grinding with my Tormek, which I do not think is it’s strength. I had several BU planes that I was trying to regrind along the entire width of their bevels. I got in the habit of applying way too much pressure on the bar on my Tormek. It took a bunch of research to finally figure out I was deflecting the bar enough to produce inconsistent results. Tormek figured out they had a design issue too because they reinforced the keeper for their bar on the next model. I actually bought my Tormek when they were relatvely new on the market and still working out the current design.

I also got interested in turning, via chair classes, which is where I picked up some of my predjudice for diamond wheels. Many turners use diamond wheels because they can dull turning tools so fast on wood spinning at high speeds. I also sharpen/hollow grind: axes, adzes, scorps, drawknives, wedges, froes and other rougher tools.

[Pat Barry]

I'm pretty sure that Patrick is doing research for a new book that he will be writing that will cover all aspects of sharpening. I say this because he seems to have every tool, grinder, sharpening stone, chisel and plane blade metallurgy, etc at his disposal in his workshop. I suspect he is working on acquiring a SEM and hardness tester to add to his collection. I can only hope we will all get autographed copies of his book when it publishes and maybe even credit in the Acknowledgements section for giving him stimulating things to write about.

[Josh Hutchinson]

My Atoma 400 plate and Norton 1000 stone arrived this week. I was able to do in about 20 minutes what I spent hours attempting on the DMT plates. I'm much happier.

Iron is nice and sharp but the plane still isn't where it needs to be. I'll get it there, but considering I've put 40+ hours into this thing so far, I'd certainly just spend the money on a LN or LV if I were to do it over again.

[Patrick Chase]

My Atoma 400 plate and Norton 1000 stone arrived this week. I was able to do in about 20 minutes what I spent hours attempting on the DMT plates. I'm much happier.

Iron is nice and sharp but the plane still isn't where it needs to be. I'll get it there, but considering I've put 40+ hours into this thing so far, I'd certainly just spend the money on a LN or LV if I were to do it over again.

Out of curiosity how did you use them? Did you directly work the iron on the Atoma, or did you just use that to maintain the Norton. I would do the latter for purely economical reasons, FWIW.

Rehabbing old tools generally isn't a profitable proposition the first time you do it. As you've discovered this stuff can be ridiculously time-consuming until you figure out what really needs to be done (the entire back does not need to be flat...) and how to do that as quickly as possible. If you develop those skills you can save a lot in the long run, though. It's hard to say without seeing your iron directly, but I would bet that I could have gotten it flat in much less than an hour by hand, and probably much less still by resorting to Tormek and/or disc-grinder.

Here's an interesting example of a very effective but relatively low-budget way to flatten plane irons, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOMjSwcEnsU

[steven c newman]

A little before and after.....time frame was 2 hours....TOTAL..
372023
A Dunlap #3 I paid $5....and...
372024
The After.
372025
Considering I walked to the store and back.....was worth the Cardio Workout....

[Derek Cohen]

......While I grind freehand, Tormek does sell the same bar jig that you use on the watergrinder. I bought one and some day plan to put it in front of a dedicated vertical grinder. The idea is you can grind and start the bevel on the high speed grinder and then move directly to the water cooled grinder without changing anything or moving the blade.

As an aside, I actually bought a second Tormek so I could have the 6000 grit water wheel permanently installed. I can move from coarse grind to finish grind complete with secondary bevel in minutes. Really takes the drudgery out of sharpening and it's so fast, you don't have to fuss about if you can shave angstroms off of tissue paper. It's plenty sharp off the wheel to use as is, and when it dulls, just repeat. Its so fast, it's fun and not a bother.

Hi Pete

I have been using a Tormek for about 15 years. I do not use it as a sharpening system, which is how Tormek envision it, but as a grinder. It remain on the 220 grit setting.

These days I keep it for use on more delicate blades, such as laminated blades, where any overheating would be a possibility. The motorised strop does get used as well, on curved blades, such as gouges.

What has essentially replaced the Tormek is a half-speed 8" bench grinder. This uses the Tormek tool rests and guides, and runs CBN wheels. This combination runs cool - almost as cool as a Tormek - but many times faster .. and, of course, with the advantage of setting the blade in a Tormek holder (on one wheel, the 180 grit - the other, 80 grit, is for freehand work).

I've posted this before ...

https://s19.postimg.org/judhfi4tf/Ultimate_Grinding_Sharpening_Set_Up_html_5c5d41f4. jpg

Link to article on my set up: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josh Hutchinson]

Out of curiosity how did you use them? Did you directly work the iron on the Atoma, or did you just use that to maintain the Norton. I would do the latter for purely economical reasons, FWIW.

I just used the Atoma to flatten the whetstones. I figured the diamond plate would last longer this way, as you said.


Rehabbing old tools generally isn't a profitable proposition the first time you do it. As you've discovered this stuff can be ridiculously time-consuming until you figure out what really needs to be done (the entire back does not need to be flat...) and how to do that as quickly as possible. If you develop those skills you can save a lot in the long run, though. It's hard to say without seeing your iron directly, but I would bet that I could have gotten it flat in much less than an hour by hand, and probably less than that by resorting to Tormek and/or disc-grinder.

I have done a lot of cosmetic work too, so I'm guessing I have 10-15 hours toward making the plane functional. It's certainly been a learning experience, although I'm not sure I could do it much faster a second time around! I'm having an issue getting the frog square to the slot. I seem to end up with a cutting edge that's not parallel to the slot after I set the depth. I'm adjusting the cutting edge so the depth is the same on each side, but then it isn't parallel to the slot. Is this a problem? I also can't get the lever cap to secure the iron/chipbreaker without tightening the screw down all the way, rendering the lever useless.

Here's the plane:

372026


Here's an interesting example of a very effective but relatively low-budget way to flatten plane irons, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOMjSwcEnsU

Thanks for the link. That looks like a great way to flatten an old iron.

[Patrick Chase]

I have done a lot of cosmetic work too, so I'm guessing I have 10-15 hours toward making the plane functional. It's certainly been a learning experience, although I'm not sure I could do it much faster a second time around!

Probably faster, but not by enough to make it worthwhile. It takes more than 2 iterations to get a process like that nailed down IMO.



I'm having an issue getting the frog square to the slot. I seem to end up with a cutting edge that's not parallel to the slot after I set the depth. I'm adjusting the cutting edge so the depth is the same on each side, but then it isn't parallel to the slot. Is this a problem? I also can't get the lever cap to secure the iron/chipbreaker without tightening the screw down all the way, rendering the lever useless.

There are several things that I know of that could be going wrong here, and probably more that I don't. Some others here (Jim in particular) have posted a lot about debugging stuff like this in the past. I think that it would be a good idea to start a new thread so it's clear that this isn't Yet More Sharpening (tm), and go from there.

[Pat Barry]

Probably faster, but not by enough to make it worthwhile. It takes more than 2 iterations to get a process like that nailed down IMO.



There are several things that I know of that could be going wrong here, and probably more that I don't. Some others here (Jim in particular) have posted a lot about debugging stuff like this in the past. I think that it would be a good idea to start a new thread so it's clear that this isn't Yet More Sharpening (tm), and go from there.

Is that the title of the sequel?

[Brian Holcombe]

Is that the title of the sequel?

I find Patrick posts to be insightful and provided at a high level of quality. He presents a scientific viewpoint that I find interesting to read.

[Pat Barry]

I find Patrick posts to be insightful and provided at a high level of quality. He presents a scientific viewpoint that I find interesting to read.
I agree, just thinking out load that's all.

[Patrick Chase]

I agree, just thinking out load that's all.

Yeah, that was a "load" all right. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously, I don't mind Pat's occasional needling. He's right that I talk a lot more about engineering, tools, and sharpening than actual woodworking, mostly because I try to stick to topics where I know I add value.

[William Fretwell]

Josh your excess time seems not directly related to restoring the old tool but re-inventing your whole sharpening system. You will no doubt recoup lots of time sharpening in the future. The plane looks wonderful by the way.
Rarely do I find bargain old tools worth restoring. Mostly they are overpriced beyond belief and buying the very best new saves you money & a lot of time. I buy my engineer son tools to restore sometimes (as a fun project for him!). They become a not so fun project for me!

What amazes me is a store in my town packed with old tools, rusted and pitted beyond restoration, almost beyond recognition sometimes! Who the heck is going to buy them?