Lie-Nielsen Issues

[Steven Harrison]

I need some opinions of woodworkers with more experience. I'm on my 3rd lever cap for a Lie-Nielsen #8. It's a brand new plane that I received on the 20th of October. The first cap had the lever bent so it was extremely difficult to operate. The second and third it doesn't appear that the lever was machined correctly so the cam action doesn't operate. I hope this makes sense. If I tighten the screw any more I can't get the cap on. When I do get the cap on, once the lever is down it's not tight enough and can wiggle around. Any help is appreciated. Good 4-1/2 lever cap on the right for reference 371617371618

[Patrick Chase]

What are the two cap irons in the pic? Are those the second and third for the 8, or a "good" one and one of the ones for the 8?

The one on the right looks like it should work OK as it has ample range (difference in cam surface height with lever up vs down).

The one on the left looks like the hole in the lever was drilled a bit too far from the end. I can see how to fix it easily enough by filing, but you shouldn't have to do that on an L-N.

Looks like maybe they're using the wrong jig in production to drill this specific lever cap. That would explain why 2 in a row have the same issue.

P.S. - This is why I prefer screw tensioners a la LV :-)

[Steven Harrison]

What are the two cap irons in the pic? Are those the second and third for the 8, or a "good" one and one of the ones for the 8?

The one on the right looks like it should work OK as it has ample range (difference in cam surface height with lever up vs down).

The one on the left looks like the hole in the lever was drilled a bit too far from the end. I can see how to fix it easily enough by filing, but you shouldn't have to do that on an L-N.

Looks like maybe they're using the wrong jig in production to drill this specific lever cap. That would explain why 2 in a row have the same issue.

Shoot I forgot to specify, I'll have to edit. Yes the one on the right is the good one from my 4-1/2 and the left is the 8. I don't want to modify anything at this point but I'm starting to second guess myself. I'm incredibly frustrated. They told me they'd ship the lever cap last week on Wednesday. I hadn't heard anything so I emailed them Friday but never got a response. Monday I had to call them to get them to actually ship it. I've had the plane for almost four weeks and haven't been able to use it. An expensive 24 inch paperweight

[Jim Koepke]

Steven,

It may be time for you to find someone in your area who can drop by and lend a hand on this. That is difficult for folks like me to volunteer our help without knowing where you are located.

If you are in the Portland, Oregon area I will be happy to help.

jtk

[Steven Harrison]

Steven,

It may be time for you to find someone in your area who can drop by and lend a hand on this. That is difficult for folks like me to volunteer our help without knowing where you are located.

If you are in the Portland, Oregon area I will be happy to help.

jtk

Completely understand. It it tough. I'm in the St. Louis area, but thank you for the offer.

[Rob Luter]

I ordered a 4 1/2 a couple years ago and it showed up with a flaw in the tote. It was replaced immediately with an abundance of professionalism and customer service. The lever on my cap iron was a bit tight initially too. A drop of oil made all the difference. Have faith. They will make it right.

[Patrick Chase]

Shoot I forgot to specify, I'll have to edit. Yes the one on the right is the good one from my 4-1/2 and the left is the 8. I don't want to modify anything at this point but I'm starting to second guess myself. I'm incredibly frustrated. They told me they'd ship the lever cap last week on Wednesday. I hadn't heard anything so I emailed them Friday but never got a response. Monday I had to call them to get them to actually ship it. I've had the plane for almost four weeks and haven't been able to use it. An expensive 24 inch paperweight

I'm going to address the technical aspects here and leave the business concerns alone, save to say that this is out of character for L-N in my experience. You have every right to expect them to make it right.

The problem with the cap iron in the picture is that the cam surface on the lever extends from the cap by about the same amount regardless of lever position. This is obvious in the second picture, where the left lever cap's cam extends all the way to the sheet metal spring/guard with the lever up, while the right example's cam surface is basically flush with the cap body in the same position.

The reason this is so is probably because the lever's hole is in the wrong place. The giveaway is the amount by which the levers extend "above" the cap (to the left in the picture), again in the second picture. You can see that in the left cap iron, the entire lever is shifted "down" (to the right in the picture) towards the spring as compared to the right cap iron. A misdrilled hole in the lever is the most likely cause IMO. The other possibility is that the corresponding feature in the cap is similarly mis-positioned, but I think that's less likely based on my experience with similar manufacturing processes.

The tightness of your first lever cap might also reflect a drilling issue BTW. Are you sure the lever was actually bent as opposed to just being installed crooked?

[Patrick Chase]

Steven,

It may be time for you to find someone in your area who can drop by and lend a hand on this. That is difficult for folks like me to volunteer our help without knowing where you are located.

If you are in the Portland, Oregon area I will be happy to help.

jtk

If this were an Ebay special I think that would be the way to go. Given that this is a new, premium plane with an obvious machining issue I think that the vendor needs to straighten it out. It's blindingly obvious that the lever was drilled in the wrong place (i.e. it's pivoting about the wrong center).

[Patrick McCarthy]

Steve, email the pictures to LN. They will know immediately and they can and will help you.

As to timing, Friday was Veteran's Day . . so mail will have been delayed.

LN has a very well deserved reputation for customer service.

[steven c newman]

IIRC...OP did in fact call them....

[Patrick Chase]

IIRC...OP did in fact call them....

He called them multiple times. He's already gone through 2 bad lever caps and is awaiting a third (and unlike some other threads there is no question that the one in the picture is flawed. Anybody with any mechanical sense will immediately recognize that that lever cap can't possibly work as intended).

[Steven Harrison]

He called them multiple times. He's already gone through 2 bad lever caps and is awaiting a third (and unlike some other threads there is no question that the one in the picture is flawed. Anybody with any mechanical sense will immediately recognize that that lever cap can't possibly work as intended).

Yes I did call them. And send them pictures and a video. This is actually the 3rd cap. The lever on the first was definitely bent to the side, you could see it by eye. The second was the same as the one pictured. It was supposed to be inspected by the shop manager. Here's a picture of the first. 371621371622

[Steven Harrison]

Steve, email the pictures to LN. They will know immediately and they can and will help you.

As to timing, Friday was Veteran's Day . . so mail will have been delayed.

LN has a very well deserved reputation for customer service.

Yeah they told me they would ship the part last Wednesday. Maybe that explains why they didn't respond to me email Friday, but I had to reach out to them Monday late morning to get any info about it. They were supposed to ship the new one before receiving the old one. Well that didn't happen, I had the old one back before I called.

[Pete Taran]

I agree with Patrick that it’s obvious that the lever cap can never tighten and loosen the way it is. I’m less sure that it is due to a miss drilled hole. It looks like to me that the hole is in the right place or the cap would not be flush on the finished side. What I think the problem is that they missed a step in finishing the lever part of the cap. When the lever is at a right angle to the cap, there is too much material protruding. If you wanted to, 5 minutes with a file on the protruding piece would tune it right up. Clearly you shouldn’t have to do that on a new plane, but if you are tired of waiting, just take a mill file and remove the thickness between the spring and the lever when it is sprung so it looks like the one that works.

Very sad that LN has taken 3 tries to get this right.

[Steven Harrison]

I agree with Patrick that it’s obvious that the lever cap can never tighten and loosen the way it is. I’m less sure that it is due to a miss drilled hole. It looks like to me that the hole is in the right place or the cap would not be flush on the finished side. What I think the problem is that they missed a step in finishing the lever part of the cap. When the lever is at a right angle to the cap, there is too much material protruding. If you wanted to, 5 minutes with a file on the protruding piece would tune it right up. Clearly you shouldn’t have to do that on a new plane, but if you are tired of waiting, just take a mill file and remove the thickness between the spring and the lever when it is sprung so it looks like the one that works.

Very sad that LN has taken 3 tries to get this right.

This makes me feel better that others can see the issue too. I thought about filing it, but at this point I want them to understand what's going on and hopefully fix it.

[Patrick Chase]

I agree with Patrick that it’s obvious that the lever cap can never tighten and loosen the way it is. I’m less sure that it is due to a miss drilled hole. It looks like to me that the hole is in the right place or the cap would not be flush on the finished side.

If you look at the pictures closely and visualize where the lever's pivot point is for each of the two cap irons, you can see that the bad one's pivot point is further "back" along the long axis of the lever. That wouldn't impact its flushness on the finished side, though it would impact the gap between the base (non-toggle, cam end) of the lever and the cap.



What I think the problem is that they missed a step in finishing the lever part of the cap. When the lever is at a right angle to the cap, there is too much material protruding. If you wanted to, 5 minutes with a file on the protruding piece would tune it right up. Clearly you shouldn’t have to do that on a new plane, but if you are tired of waiting, just take a mill file and remove the thickness between the spring and the lever when it is sprung so it looks like the one that works.

Yep, that's the "file fix" that I alluded to in post #2. It's not without downside though. If you look at the right picture you'll see that he'll have to file the entire end of the lever off, and that will create a larger (cosmetic) gap between the base of the lever and the cap when the lever is in engaged/flush position.

The more I think about this the more I think L-N may have botched a design change or mold replacement here. From personal experience as a product designer it happens to even the best teams sometimes (though far less often than to not-best teams). I'm no longer convinced that a simple machining error could move the pivot point that far. That would explain why they shipped two identically bad lever caps in a row, and are having trouble shipping the fourth one.

[Pat Barry]

I'm surprised in the variability in these parts. They certainly don't look like 'production' parts to me. They look more like model shop experiments. In fact, having three that don't work really bothers me more than anything. I think LN should step up and resolve this properly, not by the customer having to file the parts to work properly, which they have ample opportunity to do. I think I would send it back and ask for a complete refund at this point.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm no longer convinced that a simple machining error could move the pivot point that far. That would explain why they shipped two identically bad lever caps in a row, and are having trouble shipping the fourth one.

Good analysis here.

It always amazes me (not specific to this case) that people often don't pay enough attention when trying to fix or dealing with a screw-up situation.

In another tool specific forum, users share how frustrated they are when their tool maker fails them not once but twice or even thrice in the same repair/service transaction. I have also experienced something similar with a new vehicle, going back to the car dealership a few times on the same problem that wasn't fixed properly in the first place.

A mistake made is a learning opportunity, but only if it is fixed as speedily and satisfactorily as the circumstances allow and is not allowed to repeat itself. As a woodworker, when I deal with a blunder, I pay 101% of my attention to the process of preparation and fixing as I know if I screw up on a screw-up, it could become a fatal blunder.

Treating an unusual or untypical error with the usual level of attention to details is often a recipe for further predicaments.

Simon

[Lee Schierer]

I would suggest that you send a PM to Rob Lee (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?1115-Rob-Lee), who is a contributor here at SMC and a principal at Lee Valley Tools.

[Pete Taran]

What would Rob Lee say, except maybe you should have bought a LV and not a Lie Nielsen?

[Simon MacGowen]

I would suggest that you send a PM to Rob Lee (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?1115-Rob-Lee), who is a contributor here at SMC and a principal at Lee Valley Tools.

Did you mix up on the company here? The OP is not having an issue with a Lee Valley product.

Simon

[Todd Stock]

Send a note to Tom - the two times I've had an issue in 20+ years of dealing with LN, both were resolved quickly. When the #4 came out and my first lot plane had a yoke issue, new frog assembly FEDEX'd and received in a day. When the infil on my 1/2" bronze body shoulder loosened a bit after 15 years of use, Tom repaired it and paid shipping both ways. Call or email him - only takes a moment.

[Steven Harrison]

I called them first thing this morning. The gentleman I talked to looked at the pictures I had sent and wanted to further investigate after I explained everything. So I'm waiting for a call back. I would hope they would try to make up for the everything, but I doubt it.

[Steven Harrison]

Send a note to Tom - the two times I've had an issue in 20+ years of dealing with LN, both were resolved quickly. When the #4 came out and my first lot plane had a yoke issue, new frog assembly FEDEX'd and received in a day. When the infil on my 1/2" bronze body shoulder loosened a bit after 15 years of use, Tom repaired it and paid shipping both ways. Call or email him - only takes a moment.

Do you have his contact info you could send me? It's not on their site.

[Pete Taran]

Steven,

As a consumer who has paid top dollar for a premium product, it's not your responsibility to act as their unpaid quality control. I'd tell them to issue a call tag for it and issue a refund. That's assuming you bought it direct, if you didn't, I'd do the same with whoever you bought it from. One time you can chalk it up to stuff happens. Twice, maybe. Three times, you are out. Works for baseball and for life.

Let us know how you make out.

Pete

[Steven Harrison]

Steven,

As a consumer who has paid top dollar for a premium product, it's not your responsibility to act as their unpaid quality control. I'd tell them to issue a call tag for it and issue a refund. That's assuming you bought it direct, if you didn't, I'd do the same with whoever you bought it from. One time you can chalk it up to stuff happens. Twice, maybe. Three times, you are out. Works for baseball and for life.

Let us know how you make out.

Pete


I actually purchased it from Craftsman Studio. I contacted them first when all of this happened and he talked to LN and was told to have me contact them directly. You think they should issue a refund for the whole purchase? And what's a call tag?

[Pete Taran]

Absolutely. Do you have a functioning plane? If Craftsman Studio won't send a new one that works, I'd initiate a charge back. As a consumer, you have more power than you know. You paid with a CC, and you didn't get what you paid for. You have gone above and beyond to work it out, and waited over a month for that to happen. Short of creating your own sand cast patterns and making your own lever cap in your backyard, I don't know what more you should be expected to do. If random people like Patrick and I can see the problem immediately, why can't Lie-Nielsen? Not their finest hour.

[Steven Harrison]

Absolutely. Do you have a functioning plane? If Craftsman Studio won't send a new one that works, I'd initiate a charge back. As a consumer, you have more power than you know. You paid with a CC, and you didn't get what you paid for. You have gone above and beyond to work it out, and waited over a month for that to happen. Short of creating your own sand cast patterns and making your own lever cap in your backyard, I don't know what more you should be expected to do. If random people like Patrick and I can see the problem immediately, why can't Lie-Nielsen? Not their finest hour.

Very true. I'm stuck, because I want this plane and what are the alternatives? So your opinion is keep the plane, try and get a new part, and get a refund?

[Pete Taran]

No, I'd tell TLN that I'm done acting as their quality control. Issue a call tag to pick up their parts plane, and send you one that works. That's what you paid for, and that what you want. They may offer more than that to compensate for your time and effort, but I think it's asking too much to expect that you get it for free.

Your only other option is to buy a LV if you are only interested in a new, production plane. Otherwise, there are plenty of used tool dealers that can sell you a #7 or #8.

[Steven Harrison]

No, I'd tell TLN that I'm done acting as their quality control. Issue a call tag to pick up their parts plane, and send you one that works. That's what you paid for, and that what you want. They may offer more than that to compensate for your time and effort, but I think it's asking too much to expect that you get it for free.

Your only other option is to buy a LV if you are only interested in a new, production plane. Otherwise, there are plenty of used tool dealers that can sell you a #7 or #8.

I will see what they say when they call back and go from there. Thanks

[Simon MacGowen]

The fix is pretty simple (in the following order):

1) Talk to the gentleman you chatted with this morning and request a NEW plane (one that is checked trouble-free in the factory) to be mailed to you. Not another part or lever cap.

2) Tell the gentleman they can arrange to have the plane in your possession picked up by a courier.

The new plane should arrive BEFORE the pick-up of the return. If a new plane is not available for any reason, get a refund and then the LV or used plane route would be the next step.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

What would Rob Lee say, except maybe you should have bought a LV and not a Lie Nielsen?



Rob Lee would say nothing of the sort as he's too classy for that.

[Steven Harrison]

Rob Lee would say nothing of the sort as he's too classy for that.

I have given Lee Valley a lot of money in exchange for some great tools. Even though when I ordered the full small plow plane kit a year ago they shipped everything but didn't put the plow plane in the box (even though it was on the packing slip) :)

[Steven Harrison]

The fix is pretty simple (in the following order):

1) Talk to the gentleman you chatted with this morning and request a NEW plane (one that is checked trouble-free in the factory) to be mailed to you. Not another part or lever cap.

2) Tell the gentleman they can arrange to have the plane in your possession picked up by a courier.

The new plane should arrive BEFORE the pick-up of the return. If a new plane is not available for any reason, get a refund and then the LV or used plane route would be the next step.

Simon

I think I'll ask to have something overnighted or delivered by Saturday. I don't think that's asking too much. Still waiting for a call back.

[Jim Koepke]

Many things can happen in the realm of manufacturing. It is possible there was a whole batch of bad lever caps and this is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

It may have started with a new employee in assembly without much knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Then when a replacement was requested for one with a bent lever, an employee went to the parts bin and pulled defective stock without noticing the cam was wrong.

If this is the case there may be a small panic going on at LN presently. They may have to unpack every #8 plane to check the lever cap and they are finding a whole production run came through faulty. That would explain the delayed response.

From experience at my former employment involving assembly and parts management, it isn't common for many employees to notice much around the work environment other than the clock. Many won't even question a part that looks different from what they have used in the past. They will just put it on an assembly and move it to the next stage.

Hopefully this will all work out for the best.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

I have given Lee Valley a lot of money in exchange for some great tools. Even though when I ordered the full small plow plane kit a year ago they shipped everything but didn't put the plow plane in the box (even though it was on the packing slip) :)

I once received a courier package that was the size of a HUGE box for an item that was about one fourth the size of the box. This chain outlet offered the best possible shipping protection no one could match, I mean, no one.

As it turned out, they shipped four, not one, of the item I paid for. The box outside however clearly indicated a quantity of 4. People make job mistakes all the time.Trying to tell the shipper (1800#!) that it screwed up turned out to be more time-consuming than I expected.

Your small plow experience unfortunately was an example of the daily mistakes that are made everywhere.

Simon

[Jebediah Eckert]

Man Steven, you have some bad luck. Are there any actuaries on here that can figure out the odds of going a month without getting an issue resolved with Lie Nielsen, being shipping 3 bad parts (in a row) from LN, and being shorted a Plow Plane in a Lee Valley order?

I am sure there are many many on here who are nothing but happy with LN and Lee Valley, myself included.

Good luck on on getting this all figured out. There are only like 4 or so customer service people at LN, they are across the hall from shipping, and across the parking lot from manufacturing. Maybe send them Patrick’s thoughts on it and they can all get together and fix it. He’s probably right, usually is.

[Steven Harrison]

Many things can happen in the realm of manufacturing. It is possible there was a whole batch of bad lever caps and this is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

It may have started with a new employee in assembly without much knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Then when a replacement was requested for one with a bent lever, an employee went to the parts bin and pulled defective stock without noticing the cam was wrong.

If this is the case there may be a small panic going on at LN presently. They may have to unpack every #8 plane to check the lever cap and they are finding a whole production run came through faulty. That would explain the delayed response.

From experience at my former employment involving assembly and parts management, it isn't common for many employees to notice much around the work environment other than the clock. Many won't even question a part that looks different from what they have used in the past. They will just put it on an assembly and move it to the next stage.

Hopefully this will all work out for the best.

jtk

Jim I think you're right. LN just called me. Apparently they printed off the pictures and are now in the hands of Tom Lie-Nielsen. She made it sound like they are all in the shop inspecting the caps and she will call again later to update me further.

[Steven Harrison]

Man Steven, you have some bad luck. Are there any actuaries on here that can figure out the odds of going a month without getting an issue resolved with Lie Nielsen, being shipping 3 bad parts (in a row) from LN, and being shorted a Plow Plane in a Lee Valley order?

I am sure there are many many on here who are nothing but happy with LN and Lee Valley, myself included.

Good luck on on getting this all figured out. There are only like 4 or so customer service people at LN, they are across the hall from shipping, and across the parking lot from manufacturing. Maybe send them Patrick’s thoughts on it and they can all get together and fix it. He’s probably right, usually is.


Don't get me started on my luck. My wife likes to make fun of me about it. I just received a DMT extra extra fine stone that had scratches across the diamond bed that were deep enough to catch an edge on a blade. Had to send that back. I had a LV router plane straight blade that wasn't machined right so it wasn't parallel to the sole of the router plane. I received the wrong blade the first time in the replacement process for that. Never ending fun....

[steven c newman]

371656
Guess I'd better get back to a rehab, then. Stanley No.8 ,type 7.....
371657371658
With two No. 7s in the shop...not sure IF I really need a CVN 8.....

[Simon MacGowen]

it isn't common for many employees to notice much around the work environment other than the clock. Many won't even question a part that looks different from what they have used in the past. They will just put it on an assembly and move it to the next stage.

Hopefully this will all work out for the best.

jtk

Your observation about people not paying attention in their jobs is what causes grief and money for everybody. These same people are BORED and money is the only reason why they stick around in a job they don't enjoy or even hate.

Having said that, I have enjoyed the enthusiastic and cheerful services of many front-line people, and every time I see a good job done, I thank them (by name) and tip them well where applicable. I am also specific when I thank them, e.g. for their bright smiles, or for their patience, etc. If at all possible, I thank them in front of their colleagues or supervisors. Good workers deserve our motivation; bad ones are the problem of the owners.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

From experience at my former employment involving assembly and parts management, it isn't common for many employees to notice much around the work environment other than the clock. Many won't even question a part that looks different from what they have used in the past. They will just put it on an assembly and move it to the next stage.

People have a job to do. There is someone or more than one someone who are responsible for the particular aspect(s) of the tool in question in this thread. At a small company like LN, that someone / someone(s) are easily identifiable and I'm sure corrective action will be taken. The biggest quality task that everyone in manufacturing has is to recognize and report when something is different than normal. Then its up to the management to investigate and take corrective / preventative action. It does not matter if this is a fast food franchise, a tool manufacturer, or NASA, the same process must be used otherwise what you have is chaos.

[Jim Koepke]

Don't get me started on my luck. My wife likes to make fun of me about it.

To me it would be an interesting study about people's lot in life. There are a few peculiarities that stay with me. Mostly for the good and the strange one has had its moments of interest. For one my luck at finding things borders on the phenomenal. Often if something catches my fancy, my usual tack is to wait as one will likely come my way soon. In one place of employment the production manager always came to me when something was misplaced. It usually didn't take me long to find something misplaced. In many things my luck is good, except for Lotto tickets, but that story isn't yet over.

Another one was explained to me by one of my supervisors one time. As a fare equipment technician we were in a busy San Francisco station. While he was watching me work on machines people kept coming up and asking the strangest questions. Most of my responses were satisfactory and as they left another would come up and repeat the scenario. My supervisor looked at me in bewilderment and said, "you are a freak magnet." It then dawned on me. There do seem to be an inordinate amount of strange people crossing my path.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I have enjoyed the enthusiastic and cheerful services of many front-line people, and every time I see a good job done, I thank them (by name) and tip them well where applicable.

Often I will say, "Go tell the boss I thought you were so good at your job you should get the rest of the day off with pay." That usually gets a chuckle and a thanks.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

With two No. 7s in the shop...not sure IF I really need a CVN 8.....

When this happened to me, one of my #7s was sold. Now there are two #8s in the shop though one is sitting disassembled waiting for me to get in the mood to fettle.

jtk

[Todd Stock]

Let me pull up the old email archives...pretty sure it was tom@... but been a decade since. Did you call him? Usual approach is 'Hi - I'm calling for Tom and yes - I'll hold until you get HIM on the phone.'

[Steven Harrison]

Let me pull up the old email archives...pretty sure it was tom@... but been a decade since. Did you call him? Usual approach is 'Hi - I'm calling for Tom and yes - I'll hold until you get HIM on the phone.'

I didn't speak with him, but was told he was involved. I just spoke with someone at LN. They don't have anymore No. 8s in stock and they don't have any good lever caps. So they said they are going to make a batch tomorrow, and I'll have it by Monday after it's been tested. I expressed my disappointment, but that was that. Guess I'll wait until Monday. Going to be a while before I decide to do business with them again.

[Simon MacGowen]

I didn't speak with him, but was told he was involved. I just spoke with someone at LN. They don't have anymore No. 8s in stock and they don't have any good lever caps. So they said they are going to make a batch tomorrow, and I'll have it by Monday after it's been tested. I expressed my disappointment, but that was that. Guess I'll wait until Monday. Going to be a while before I decide to do business with them again.

Tom is a smart businessman. He would send or someone (from LN reading this thread) would remind him to send you.r the replacement part with a bench brush or a token gift card along.

If all you get after all this is a #8 and nothing else, they have given up a golden opportunity to turn a bad sales experience into something more positive.

Simon

[Steven Harrison]

Tom is a smart businessman. He would send or someone (from LN reading this thread) would remind him to send you.r the replacement part with a bench brush or a token gift card along.

If all you get after all this is a #8 and nothing else, they have given up a golden opportunity to turn a bad sales experience into something more positive.

Simon

I'm not the type of person to expect freebies, but in this case I was kind of expecting something. I don't get the impression that's going to happen though. Mr. Lie-Nielsen was kind enough to send me an email and apologize about the situation.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Don't get me started on my luck. My wife likes to make fun of me about it. I just received a DMT extra extra fine stone that had scratches across the diamond bed that were deep enough to catch an edge on a blade. Had to send that back. I had a LV router plane straight blade that wasn't machined right so it wasn't parallel to the sole of the router plane. I received the wrong blade the first time in the replacement process for that. Never ending fun....


Ugh. I hope it works out eventually, so frustrating when these things happen.

[Stewie Simpson]

Tom is a smart businessman. He would send or someone (from LN reading this thread) would remind him to send you.r the replacement part with a bench brush or a token gift card along.

If all you get after all this is a #8 and nothing else, they have given up a golden opportunity to turn a bad sales experience into something more positive.

Simon

Simon; this issue will get fixed to the customers satisfaction shortly. LN do offer a lifetime guarantee on their tools. What wont change are the comments that were made within this thread that will appear again and again and again when someone searches feedback on LNs reputation. Could this issue have been handled better by the OP. imo yes. And it would not include venting his frustration on an open forum.

Stewie;

[Todd Stock]

A quick check of some LN retailers shows the #8 out of stock, so not surprised they did not just call one of their dealers to pull stock. That said, I bet there is a #8 lever cap in the show room that would work...have to think the lack of a #8 for tire kickers to play with is less important than a frustrated owner of a $475 paperweight.

[Steven Harrison]

Simon; this issue will get fixed to the customers satisfaction shortly. LN do offer a lifetime guarantee on their tools. What wont change are the comments that were made within this thread that will appear again and again and again when someone searches feedback on LNs reputation. Could this issue have been handled better by the OP. imo yes. And it would not include venting his frustration on an open forum.

Stewie;

I created this thread because of Lie-Nielsen's reputation. I was second guessing myself and thought I was doing something wrong after receiving the 3rd bad cap. Of course I'm frustrated, but this has all happened and I don't think it should be ignored. I don't think putting LN on a pedestal and ignoring their mistakes helps them or us, their customers that keep them in business. What people will see is an issue, and then (hopefully) a resolution with Thomas Lie-Nielsen reaching out to the customer.

[Pete Taran]

Stewart,

Really? The OP was patiently working with LN to get the issue resolved. After 3 tries and a month of time passing, he obviously wanted a second opinion on what to do. He got it, and the process appeared to work. That is what the feedback loop is all about. It's sometimes not pretty but when done properly it works every time. No company is perfect and customers are in charge or the companies they support don't last very long. It seems to me, as someone who knows more about LN than most (after all, I did sell my saw making company to them back in 1998), that they may have grown to the point where their intense customer focus is slipping from levels where it was in the past. I'm sure, like all feedback, this episode will underscore the need to redouble their efforts. NO ONE is doing a company any favors by silence when confronted with defective goods or poor service.

371730

[Simon MacGowen]

Stewart,

NO ONE is doing a company any favors by silence when confronted with defective goods or poor service.

371730

Agreed, as long as the sharing of a bad service experience is done in a civilized manner, which the OP has.

The OP actually has displayed the kind of patience that many in his situation may not have.

It is true a reputation tarnished online will never go away and thus it is critical (if reputation is treasured by the company) that a company handles all customer complaints or service dissatisfaction speedily. A while back, I saw a thread about a problem expressed on a router plane made by a smaller tool maker. I scratched my head as to why the tool maker allowed the "complaint" to linger on for weeks in the thread.

We all know Rob from Veritas is pretty much the only vendor principal who has the guts to address the forum directly, even though many many other vendors -- large or small, power or hand tool -- quietly (secretly?) monitor our discussions constantly that affect them. This is a double-edged tool. Rob gains not only information (on his company as well as on the competitors) no money can buy him but also our trust by interacting with us. But the risk is high too as this not a Veritas fanboy or fangirl club and he has to sometimes face a hostile audience. I personally know two small tool makers who said they would not want to be pinned black and white in their handling of customer concerns.

If anyone thinks telling a vendor honestly when it screws up is hurting the vendor, they are misguided in their thinking.

Simon

[Steven Harrison]

Agreed, as long as the sharing of a bad service experience is done in a civilized manner, which the OP has.

The OP actually has displayed the kind of patience that many in his situation may not have.

It is true a reputation tarnished online will never go away and thus it is critical (if reputation is treasured by the company) that a company handles all customer complaints or service dissatisfaction speedily. A while back, I saw a thread about a problem expressed on a router plane made by a smaller tool maker. I scratched my head as to why the tool maker allowed the "complaint" to linger on for weeks in the thread.

We all know Rob from Veritas is pretty much the only vendor principal who has the guts to address the forum directly, even though many many other vendors -- large or small, power or hand tool -- quietly (secretly?) monitor our discussions constantly that affect them. This is a double-edged tool. Rob gains not only information (on his company as well as on the competitors) no money can buy him but also our trust by interacting with us. But the risk is high too as this not a Veritas fanboy or fangirl club and he has to sometimes face a hostile audience. I personally know two small tool makers who said they would not want to be pinned black and white in their handling of customer concerns.

If anyone thinks telling a vendor honestly when it screws up is hurting the vendor, they are misguided in their thinking.

Simon

I agree, and thank you.

[Jim Koepke]

The OP actually has displayed the kind of patience that many in his situation may not have.

Yes, Steven can be commended for his patience with this issue.

Sometimes when things are going screwy it is helpful to be able to release our frustration on a forum like this with friends we have not yet met.

Some of the frustrations, such as an unanswered email sent on an observed holiday Friday, may have been tamped down.

Anyone who finds this thread in the future will likely also find a happy ending.

jtk

[Steven Harrison]

Stewart,

Really? The OP was patiently working with LN to get the issue resolved. After 3 tries and a month of time passing, he obviously wanted a second opinion on what to do. He got it, and the process appeared to work. That is what the feedback loop is all about. It's sometimes not pretty but when done properly it works every time. No company is perfect and customers are in charge or the companies they support don't last very long. It seems to me, as someone who knows more about LN than most (after all, I did sell my saw making company to them back in 1998), that they may have grown to the point where their intense customer focus is slipping from levels where it was in the past. I'm sure, like all feedback, this episode will underscore the need to redouble their efforts. NO ONE is doing a company any favors by silence when confronted with defective goods or poor service.

371730

I couldn't agree more. And WOW Pete. Congrats on the sale 19 years late. I'm happy with what Tom had to say and I think this situation probably helped sort some things out.

[glenn bradley]

Not your usual LN story. Hope things work out.

[Rob Lee]

What would Rob Lee say, except maybe you should have bought a LV and not a Lie Nielsen?

All I can say is we both employ humans ( more every year!) and as long as we do, errors will be made.... just hopefully not the same ones....!

Cheers -

Rob

[lawrence munninghoff]

I bought a no 7 a while back from Craftsman Studio and when received it had a big obvious ding in the side of the plane. Could not miss it. I contacted Craftsman Studio who were little help and had to get a new plane from LN. I would never buy from Craftsman Studio again even with their free shipping offer.

[Frederick Skelly]

Simon; this issue will get fixed to the customers satisfaction shortly. LN do offer a lifetime guarantee on their tools. What wont change are the comments that were made within this thread that will appear again and again and again when someone searches feedback on LNs reputation. Could this issue have been handled better by the OP. imo yes. And it would not include venting his frustration on an open forum.

Stewie;

First, I'd like to say that the OP's post was polite. It wasn't (IMO) our usual "use the internet as a weapon" post. At the same time, I have to politely agree with Stewie that LN was already trying to help him. While the fact they havent got it right in 3 attempts is very frustrating, they WILL take care of this. We all know that. So, IMO, the original post was a bit premature. I'd bet the value of that plane that LN will make this right or cheerfully refund the OP's money. I trust those guys just as much as I do LV.

And Pete, that's not a knock against any point that you or others have made Sir. I always value your comments here.

Best regards,
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

First, I'd like to say that the OP's post was polite. It wasn't (IMO) our usual "use the internet as a weapon" post. At the same time, I have to politely agree with Stewie that LN was already trying to help him. While the fact they havent got it right in 3 attempts is very frustrating, they WILL take care of this. We all know that. So, IMO, the original post was a bit premature. I'd bet the value of that plane that LN will make this right or cheerfully refund the OP's money. I trust those guys just as much as I do LV.

I like LN, have a bunch of stuff, and root for them to succeed, but I think that in this instance they blew it badly (as Rob says it happens to everybody) and that the OP's post was therefore very reasonable. He'd gone through three bad cap irons, two of them with exactly the same problem, that rendered a $475 plane unusable for weeks. LN then didn't follow up within the promised timeframe to get him a fourth, good cap iron. While I realize that it's extremely unpleasant and embarrassing to have to admit to your customer that you don't have a single good part in inventory (I've been there), it's generally better to do that than to not communicate adequately.



And Pete, that's not a knock against any point that you or others have made Sir. I always value your comments here.

I thought the "apathy" poster was a little over the top to be honest, but Pete has certainly earned the right to be a bit pointed about this sort of stuff. He's not some random keyboard jockey who's never designed or sold a product in his life...

[Steven Harrison]

They surprised me and where able to overnight the cap which371828 just arrived along with a few goodies. The plane performs beautifully. Great start to the weekend!

[Pete Taran]

Happy Days. Glad it worked out for you and in the end, as the customer, how you feel about the experience is all that matters. Happy Jointing.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Man, glad to hear. It’s maddening when you can’t get something to work, not knowing if it’s operator error or not.

I guess it was just a bad manufactured batch like Patrick said?

[Jim Koepke]

+1 on what Pete said.

Those little rulers are great. If you set it in a mortise, you can flex the rule and the slider will drop, makes a handy depth gauge.

jtk

[Steven Harrison]

Happy Days. Glad it worked out for you and in the end, as the customer, how you feel about the experience is all that matters. Happy Jointing.

I'm very happy, just took a little getting there.


Man, glad to hear. It’s maddening when you can’t get something to work, not knowing if it’s operator error or not.

I guess it was just a bad manufactured batch like Patrick said?

I'm guessing a bad batch but I never got any confirmation. Yeah the second guessing everything was driving me crazy.


+1 on what Pete said.

Those little rulers are great. If you set it in a mortise, you can flex the rule and the slider will drop, makes a handy depth gauge.

jtk

I'm pretty excited that they included it and everything else.

[Todd Stock]

Here's the important question: did you get the capiron reground, cleaned up, fitted, and polished?

But seriously - good on you for sticking with it.

[Steven Harrison]

Here's the important question: did you get the capiron reground, cleaned up, fitted, and polished?

But seriously - good on you for sticking with it.

It was worth it

[Frederick Skelly]

It was worth it

Glad it worked out for you! You cannot go wrong with LN or LV.
Fred

[Dave Zellers]

Just the hat alone is worth all the hassle!

Well, OK, maybe not. But a happy ending.

I think everyone who followed this thread for the last 5 days should get a hat.

[Steven Harrison]

Just the hat alone is worth all the hassle!

Well, OK, maybe not. But a happy ending.

I think everyone who followed this thread for the last 5 days should get a hat.

If I could get everyone a hat I would. But if you let me order it, it might arrive with a typo :D

[John Curran]

Howdy
I too have been thinking about the #8, but do not want to pull the trigger on a new plane if the problems that you have been having is not resolved. It has been almost a month since you have made your lastpost. How goes it with your problem? Thanks

[David Eisenhauer]

I believe in Post #15 he says that he received a replacement part a little quicker than the last promised date proposed by LN and all was well. I did not continue to follow the thread past that point to see if Steven made any more comments regarding his LN experience. I hope he is getting good service out of that tool now, as I would for anyone that ordered a new tool (of any brand) with high expectations/anticipation in using a new tool.

[Frederick Skelly]

I believe in Post #15 he says that he received a replacement part a little quicker than the last promised date proposed by LN and all was well. I did not continue to follow the thread past that point to see if Steven made any more comments regarding his LN experience. I hope he is getting good service out of that tool now, as I would for anyone that ordered a new tool (of any brand) with high expectations/anticipation in using a new tool.

Yup. It's in post #64 - says it has been taken care of and shows a pic of some SWAG they sent him.

[John Curran]

Thanks for the reply. I would love to go to Main and check out there operation. The LN tools that I have are great, know complaints whatsoever.

[Steven Harrison]

Howdy
I too have been thinking about the #8, but do not want to pull the trigger on a new plane if the problems that you have been having is not resolved. It has been almost a month since you have made your lastpost. How goes it with your problem? Thanks

The problems I had with the #8 have all been fixed, and it's an amazing plane. The best I can describe it as is that it almost glides across the wood. I'm sure any order that you make won't have the same lever cap issue that I had.