Help- I'm seriously "fretting" these dovetails!

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

<p>
Ive got a bit of an issue with my dovetails and could use some suggestions. Im not a novice- Ive got a little bit of experience, and my hand cut tails have improved over time, to the point that i may actually show one to another human being at some time in the near future. My biggest issue... the thing that would put me within a few lightyears of the likes of Paul Sellers like joinery if i could overcome it, is the cross cutting between the tails and pins. I can make my vertical cuts down the sides of my pins and tails with the best of em, and then it goes from not bad to scrap bucket quick. I can make it work with my chissels and a coping saw, or by cutting nowhere near my lines and using the old file, but what i would really like to do, is get in there with a spiral fret and make a nice clean cut out of the gate. But I am having way too much trouble swallowing the prices on some of the quality saws out there like the knew concepts birdcage frame saws.Not gone do it. I refuse. Ill spend a few bucks on a nice sweetheart no.4, or a classy dovetail saw... but those frets are just stupid. STUPID. I found some cheapos on amazon, but they have pretty horrible reviews- to the point where a twenty dollar gamble makes me fret the fret. Do yall have any suggestions? I'm not opposed to DIY rigs or spending some time on this, but if I cant fret some nice tails for fourty bucks or less, that things going on a list addressed to the north pole for old Chris Cringle and Ill suppress my neanderthal tendencies for a bit and settle for my router and DT jig... as much as tham makes me feel... rather pedestrian.</p>
<p>
Thanks Guys,</p>

[Prashun Patel]

I have the same cheap coping saw I have had for years. It works fine. Replace the blades with decent quality and change often. For my part, I'm changing the wood more than the saw these days... I going 'softer' in my old age...

[Richard Line]

I'm in a similar state with my dovetails. Back this summer (or was it spring) I broke down and got a fret saw, not the expensive one. Got it off Amazon, and with some of the better blades (including skip tooth blades), it is working well for me. I've made some cuts so close to the line that it wasn't clear if they needed any more clean up. Before I bought I had done some on-line research about fret saws and how to use them for cutting dovetails. One piece of advise was very helpful in selecting the saw. It was to bend the blade, at both ends, about 30 deg. so the frame would clear the top of the piece. Worked well for me. In practice the bend doesn't need to be that great for working with 4/4 wood; of course if your cutting timber frame size dovetails, well.

The saw I got had this listing – SE 81970SF 3” Adjustable Jeweler’s Saw Frame, look around at the other offerings.

[peter Joseph]

Not sure I follow Ryan. You believe that your dovetails would improve if you were better able to remove waste between the tails and pins with a fret saw? Those cuts usually don't need to be dead accurate because they're followed up with a chisel.
MrR

[Robert Hazelwood]

A fretsaw might be nice, and speeds up the process a little, but it shouldn't be a huge game changer over the coping saw. Are you thinking that with a fret saw you can saw exactly to the baseline and forego any chiseling? That isn't likely to be the case- you can get very close to the baseline with it, but you won't get the line as perfectly straight or square as you need for nice dovetails. So you leave a tiny bit of waste that you can clean up with a few chops.

You can get almost as close with a coping saw, but you have to make two cuts in each socket instead of one. And there will be a little more waste left, which means you have to take a few extra chops with the chisel. That's about the extent of the difference. It shouldn't be such a big problem that you reach for the router jig.

What is your current approach with the coping saw?

[Mike Brady]

All good advise so far. I use a fret saw because it is the only saw blade that will fit in the saw kerf left by my thin plate dovetail saw. Your point about good fret saws being expensive is well taken, but your whole process would be more gratifying if you just spent the hundred bucks. I don't cut right up to the baseline, but stay within 1/16", then finish with a sharp chisel. Here's why I have settled on this method: Chopping all of the dovetail waste dulls chisels too quickly. Once I have cleaned out the crumbs in the corners, I can usually put the joint together with mallet taps. I am very careful when I transfer the tails to the pin board. I think it is the make or break step in the process. I use a double bevel carving knife to do this and then darken those knife lines with a very fine pencil. I try to saw away 1/2 of the thickness of that pencil line.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Ryan,

Before buying my Knew Concepts fret saw my old fret saws didn't seem too bad. Now they get little work because the Knew Concepts saw is that much better.

You do not need the titanium bird cage model. That is a bit pricey. My choice was the 5" fret saw with lever tension and swivel blade at $99. It has been a game changer in my use of a fret saw and dovetail cutting.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Perhaps a little longer viewing of Sellers videos may be of use? And save the OP that $100 bill? What is so hard, or slow about just using a sharp chisel.....to do all the work? You will need a chisel anyway.....

[Jim Koepke]

Perhaps a little longer viewing of Sellers videos may be of use? And save the OP that $100 bill? What is so hard, or slow about just using a sharp chisel.....to do all the work? You will need a chisel anyway.....

Many a dovetail has been chopped with my chisels. For half blind pins a fret saw is of no use. For my own work using a fret saw and paring a little waste is quicker than chopping the waste. My dovetails have also shown an improvement from changing methods.

Yes, it is possible to make perfectly good dovetails by chopping out the waste. Craftsmen and masters have been doing it for centuries. Though a good fret saw does make it go a bit quicker.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

<p>
Ive got a bit of an issue with my dovetails and could use some suggestions. ... My biggest issue... the thing that would put me within a few lightyears of the likes of Paul Sellers like joinery if i could overcome it, is the cross cutting between the tails and pins. .... what i would really like to do, is get in there with a spiral fret and make a nice clean cut out of the gate. But I am having way too much trouble swallowing the prices on some of the quality saws out there like the knew concepts birdcage frame saws...

Hi Ryan

The KC fretsaw is the best around. Full stop. But ... you do not need a birdcage version (I do have one - it is GREAT!). My recommendation is a 3" plain aluminium red saw, with the angled blade. Set at 45 degrees, the 3" can read a depth of 2", which is deep enough for any dovetailing task.

https://s19.postimg.org/ejv0a8zmb/KC453inch.jpg

Now the main advantage of a good fretsaw does not lie in removing the waste from tails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_58c6a915.jpg

... although this is important.

The main advantage lies with removing the waste from pins in through dovetails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m46d81eff.jpg

If you cut a chisel wall before removing the waste, you will have a place to sit the chisel and remove the remainder of the waste without pushing back the baseline ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_236c5ff2.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_2a161e0e.jpg

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan Schwabacher]

If you want to make your own, take a look at this thread, posted some time ago by Bob Smalser:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?12368-A-Better-Coping-Saw

Some of the photos are missing, but I can attest that these work well.

[Robert Engel]

Actually you don't need to saw the waste out. In fact, there are good justifications for not doing it.


Sometimes I do saw them out, but not in soft wood because its too quick and easy to just chop them out.

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

I have the same cheap coping saw I have had for years. It works fine. Replace the blades with decent quality and change often. For my part, I'm changing the wood more than the saw these days... I going 'softer' in my old age...
I've found myself doing the same

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

yeah, I sometimes tend to use too many words that say far too little. Obviously the equipment doesnt make the dovetail. I noticed on several videos that when using a fret, waste removal seems to be easier and cleaner than with a coping. My thinking is spending less time with the chisel and needing to remove less with said chisel would probably improve things a bit.

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

i dont trust myself enough to saw on the baseline with anything! haha. I fully expect to continue using a chisel in the end, but hopefully to remove less waste than i do now. My current approach is actually exactly (I think) in the way you suggested. An extra cut to get the blade down in there and a chisel clean-up. Maybe the real issue here is how easy some of the professionals make it look on the videos I've used for reference. They seem to go so effortlessly from dovetail saw to fret saw, and vertical to lateral cut. I can only assume (which makes an ... out of u and me) that maybe they were using a spiral blade? I honestly dont know. I do know that at the very least investing in a smaller blade couldnt hurt.

[Jim Koepke]

I noticed on several videos that when using a fret, waste removal seems to be easier and cleaner than with a coping.

Hi Ryan,

The fret saw blade is thinner than a coping saw blade. Part of this is the extra metal required to have pins at each end of a coping blade to be held in a coping saw.

My old standard fret saws do not tension a blade as taught as a Knew Concepts saw. This is one big difference. In my old saws the blades would bow and break if and when they would bind in the cut. The well tensioned blade in a KC saw doesn't bow, hasn't broken yet and cuts quickly and accurately.

As an added bonus the KC fret saw is bigger than my old saws but is also lighter in hand. Sometimes the momentum of mass is helpful. In some areas a light, delicate touch wins the day.

jtk

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

Im starting to think i might end up drawing the same conclusion Mike. Cough up the cash and be done with it.

[Jim Koepke]

Im starting to think i might end up drawing the same conclusion Mike. Cough up the cash and be done with it.

You might have a little sniffle as you close your wallet, but for years after you will be thanking yourself for pulling the trigger on a fine tool.

jtk

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

yeah... I gotta be honest, Paul's video's are probably the most informative, but they can be difficult for someone with severe ADD to stay with lol. Ive always been one to favor cliff notes myself- But sometimes that wont... CUT it (pun intended). A few more sessions with Paul on youtube taking notes on his chisel only waste removal probably wont hurt me. Neither would getting more experience doing it with just a chisel. The only drawback there for me is this dadgum 24 hour day... that sun is one lazy ball of fire. It'd be nice if he could put in a little overtime now and again. God knows I do! Its not that the using a sharp chisel method is too slow, its that I am not the quickest/most proficient at executing said method.

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

well said Jim

[Mike Brady]

....waiting for those reasons not to saw out waste between dovetails. I'll start..... I give up. Can't think of one. :)

[steven c newman]

Adds more work to the job. Saw the lines, saw the waste, and STILL have to chisel to the baselines? Vs...saw the lines, chop the waste, fit the joint together,,,,in almost the same amount of time. But, with one less tool to keep track of....or buy.

[Derek Cohen]

Yes, one still needs to chisel to the line. However, paring away 1-2mm of waste has two advantages:

1. There is less likelihood of bruising or tearing out the edges and the centre.
2. There is less wear and likely damage to the chisel.

These are not big factors if all you ever work with is soft woods. However, it becomes increasingly evident as you work with progressively harder timbers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Saw the lines, saw the waste, and STILL have to chisel to the baselines? Vs...saw the lines, chop the waste, fit the joint together,,,,in almost the same amount of time.

My chisel always wanted to push against the baseline and crush it when chopping on the baseline in soft firs. So the waste would get chopped above the line and then pared to the line. My early gappy dovetails are still holding together, but they don't look as good as the ones that fit snugly.

Maybe it is time my chopping a dovetail is measured against my sawing a dovetail.

jtk

[John Schtrumpf]

Personally, I like playing with sharp pointy things. Using a chisel to chop the waste is just more enjoyable.

[Jim Koepke]

Personally, I like playing with sharp pointy things. Using a chisel to chop the waste is just more enjoyable.

Lets do the math, a fret saw blade has anywhere from 30 to 100 sharp little pointy things depending on the tooth count. So shouldn't be that much more enjoyable? :D

jtk

[Jeff Ranck]

Lets do the math, a fret saw blade has anywhere from 30 to 100 sharp little pointy things depending on the tooth count. So shouldn't be that much more enjoyable? :D

jtk

OK, that made me laugh!

[Joe A Faulkner]

FWIW: You might checkout Gesswein's prices on the KC saws.