Air filtration for new shop

[Jason Victory]

Hey guys; I’m new here so I hope I’m posting in the right place! I’ve been running (solo) a small furniture business in my personal shop for the past couple years and it has been successful enough to turn it into a part time job and I am blessed enough to be able to financially afford to build a bigger shop. The shop will be 20x26 so roughly 500sq/ft.

My question pertains to an air filtration system. Should I be looking at getting a single unit that performs at 1000-1200 CFM or would it be better two get two units at 500-600 CFM and hang them one opposite sides of the shop. I’m just wondering if the two will collect more working together in two separate locations.

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

[Chris Parks]

The trick is too prevent dust getting into the air so the need for filtration is minimised. You will never eliminate it but you can sure get the levels way down using a good dust extraction system and well designed hoods and pick ups on the machines. This requires a serious investment but if it is your job then it will pay off. If you don't take the necessary steps as you set up it is unlikely you will ever do it.

[Darin German]

I have one small filtration unit in my 2 car garage and will probably add a second. I spray my finishes and the filtration units help pull the particles out of the air. I use mostly waterborne finishes though. My small unit is very effective on it's own but adding a second isn't that expensive. I don't have room for a large DC so I have to move my small one from machine to machine.

[Randy Heinemann]

I have taken a multi-faceted approach to dust -

1. A cyclone dust collector for at-source collection on my larger machines - planer, jointer, bandsaw, table saw, router table, and lathe.
2. A HEPA vac for collection from smaller, portable tools - sanders, handheld routers, Festool Domino, and drill press.
3. A ceiling hung air cleaner to remove as much floating dust as possible - the dust that isn't kept out of the air by either the cyclone or the HEPA vac.
4. A powered mask that is worn most of the time while using any of the above machines, small or large.

Between all of those, I get very little dust settling on the floor or shelves. I think that means that, for the most part, I'm successful in keeping dust out of the air and my lungs.

I have always felt that anything less that this 4-component approach, is a risk to my lungs. I wish I'd have understood this back when I started woodworking in the 70's. I have still been fortunate that my lungs are healthy and I want to keep it that way.

[John K Jordan]

I have taken a multi-faceted approach to dust -
1. A cyclone dust ...

Jason,

I work much like Randy: a good cyclone first. I installed a 5hp ClearVue cyclone in my new shop.
When making dust I wear a 3M industrial respirator with P100 filters.

I think an air cleaner/filter is good for cleaning up fine dust that manages to float around the room. It has a timer so it can run for a while while your are out of the shop. (I have a Jet that hangs from the ceiling)

One nice investment is an air quality monitor. I have the Dylos: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004AWEG0Y Instead of guessing, this will let you know if there is harmful superfine dust floating around the shop. This is recommended by Bill Pentz.

You might read the Pentz site for a little light (ha!) reading on the subject. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/ Bill has been instrumental in educating many people on the dangers of dust and how to deal with it. Even 20 years ago very few people with personal shops (and even some commercial shops) seemed concerned about the health aspects of breathing dust. This seems to be changing -- just yesterday I ran into a guy from my church who was shopping for a cyclone for his little garage shop.

Two gentlemen from our woodturning club were forced to give up working with wood because of serious health issues from fine wood dust.

JKJ

[glenn bradley]

I am in a 20 x 30 foot area and find one unit located along the long wall (as most reading recommends) does the job. I have good collection at the source and still find the ambient collector beneficial. As my source collection has gotten better, I clean/change the filters less ofen but, it is still capturing enough to make it worth while. I imagine a few folks would be surprised what gets collected if they ran an ambient cleaner while they were working for an hour or so ;-)

[Jason Victory]

Ok thanks guys! So it sounds like I really need to invest some $ in a good DC system. Unfortunately I am on a budget like most of us I’m sure; should I sacrifice some of my other tools in terms of quality and invest in a good DC?

Another thing I forgot to mention is my kids are frequent visitors of the shop during the day given my wife is a stay at home mom. So air quality is very imprortant.

[Chris Parks]

Ask what value do you put on your health? The real problem is a lot of advise is given with no real foundation in fact except to say that "my system works for me". There are no facts to back up that statement and at the end of the day every installation is unique. My advise is to buy a cyclone, Clearvue and Bill Pentz give actual numbers on its performance, others may but I have never seen them so I can't comment. Exhaust that cyclone to the atmosphere if possible avoiding filters and use what money you have left to equip the workshop adding more as you get more money. I say use a cyclone because it usually has good expansion possibilities as you add more machines and it sounds like that is your intention. BTW Clearvue state that their cyclones will separate to over 99% with very fine sub micron dust being the only stuff left. Exhausted to atmosphere that can't be seen or detected but make sure that the exhaust is away form doors and windows as much as possible to avoid the dust being dragged back into the building.

[Jason Victory]

I’ve never thought about exhausting it to the outside. Is there a benefit of doing that vs running it into a normal bag setup?

[Chris Parks]

Exhausting it outside is dependent on climate, sucking air out of the building obviously impacts any heating or cooling due to the air change that happens. if it is feasible exhausting to atmosphere is the best thing, there are no filters to clean and it improves air flow. Bags are a waste of time, they all leak and the dust they leak is the most harmful to you as it is the small end of the particle scale, that gets ingested into the lungs and never leaves the body. You can't exhaust a bag/filter style extractor to the atmosphere as the exhaust stream carries all the debris it picked up so it has to be a cyclone as it is the separator and holds the dust.

[Jason Victory]

Ok what would you suggest to use in order to keep animals such as birds out of the exhaust that also wouldn’t hinder airflow?

[Chris Parks]

A couple of hundred installations in Australia don't report nesting birds or other wild life in the exhaust so I think the problem is non existent and if any did take up residence they wouldn't stay long when the cyclone started. Most extractors are muffled anyway whether they are inside exhaust or outside exhaust so that would be an impediment to wild life as well.

[Randy Heinemann]

I don't know if it's a good idea to sacrifice quality on other tools but it sure is the best idea to do what you can to remove dust from the air. As another said the dust collection solution isn't the same across the board for everyone. Do as much research online as you need to make a decision. There is a lot of info out there; some contradictory and some consistent. HEPA filters on dust collectors and vacs is superior to other filtering methods. 2-stage dust collectors (like cyclones) are generally better than single stage. Air cleaners don't come with HEPA filters and are therefore really best as an end filter which repetitvely attempts to pull the remaining dust from the air. In the end it's always best to use some sort of dust mask to make sure you are getting the least dust in your lungs possible (a good quality mask).

[glenn bradley]

First a disclaimer; I think item "1" on anyone's "starting a new shop" list should be dust collection. My reasons are personal and will follow me the rest of my life; enough said.


should I sacrifice some of my other tools in terms of quality and invest in a good DC?

I don't know that I would follow this path. Since we are talking about dust collection I will spare you the discussion of the wonders of hand tools and all they can do and weight this in the direction of a tailed, or at least a hybrid shop. I would wait on the purchase of one large machine or another rather than purchase everything on my list at a lower quality point.

A small bandsaw can get you by and still have value when you purchase a larger one if you get into resawing. A planer sled and your router table or tablesaw can take the place of a jointer until you are ready for one. A router combo kit can cover all your routing needs until you need a dedicated table router and a half a dozen others, if ever. A drill motor can do a lot of what I use a drill press for, just not as easily or conveniently but, it will save you buying a poor DP only to have to replace it later if you wait and save your pennies.

If you are going to have a tablesaw anchored shop (I do) then I would focus my primary purchase on the tablesaw and a DC. If you are going straight into making your own boards and blanks then I might start with a high-end bandsaw and planer and dust collection. The lack of a tablesaw will require some hand tool skills. Come to think of it my current jointer plane cost more than my first tablesaw and bandsaw combined (bought used) so this could be in error ;-)

As usual, consider a piece that you would like to make, look at what it takes to make it (and clean the air while doing so) and that will sharpen your focus on what machines you need right away. Look for alternatives to the easy, machined way of doing some tasks in an effort to defer that expense so that you can buy better quality of what you do buy first. JMHO.

A 2 micron filter in action:

371565

[Chris Parks]

Following up to what I said above, all bags leak and 99% of single stage bag/filter style extractors leak somewhere in the machine. If anyone is forced to use one it should be placed outside the work area in another enclosure and the air then exhausted to atmosphere or returned through filters to the work area so the leaked dust is not released into the work area environment. Vacuum cleaners are in the same category, all but a few leak dust, in fact they chew the dust up into smaller particles and then leak that back into the air which creates a huge problem as the particles are then very small and float in the atmosphere even better so you can breathe them in more easily.

[Bill Adamsen]

I have an ambient air filter I run pretty much continuously during work, and then with the timer at end of day to clear the air. It's the unit described by Bill Pentz on his web-site (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/air_cleaner.cfm). I don't have any meters that indicate metrics on how well it performs, but I can see and feel a difference. The cost is essentially the cost of the filter plus the cost of the in-line fan.

This is in addition to the centralized dust collection system.

[Josh Kocher]

I'd skip the ambient air filter and focus my funds into a good 2 stage collector with a sub-micron rated and certified filter. ie. HEPA or Nano.

You can continue to run your DC after the tools stop spinning and open some gates to continue cycling and filtering the air in shop just as well as an ambient filter will.

[Chris Parks]

I used to recommend to customers who bought a CV Max from me that they always have an open gate above the work area that in effect scrubbed the air and grabbed a lot of the floating dust. The Max will support two open gates easily and if run at more than 60hz perhaps three gates, I run my CV1800 at 65 hz. Always vent to atmosphere if possible, it saves the expense of filters and the air flow is greater.

[David Utterback]

Good luck on your new venture. Exhausting conditioned air to the outside is a huge expense. Recirculating filtered air inside the shop poses some health risks. Additional filtration efficiency reduces those risks and wood species selection can reduce them further. It is all a trade off but should, IMHO, favor protecting your health.

All the suggestions above are good. The 4-part system makes a lot of sense and they are ranked in the order of importance. I agree with using hand tools as much as possible. However, there is no tool in my shop that produces more airborne dust and floor debris than a handheld router. Router tables are easy to build though and my version of Norm's works quite well. Similar source controls are necessary for all powered machines. None of these will get it all, though.

[Bill Adamsen]

I'd skip the ambient air filter and focus my funds into a good 2 stage collector with a sub-micron rated and certified filter. ie. HEPA or Nano.

You can continue to run your DC after the tools stop spinning and open some gates to continue cycling and filtering the air in shop just as well as an ambient filter will.

Sounds good in principle but in practice it turns out to be impractical. There are a number of reasons. Top of the list is noise. My cyclone is orders of magnitude louder than the ambient air filter. It basically requires hearing protection to operate at the speeds required to remove ambient air. Whereas the ambient filter works nicely in the background with little noise. Also, the centralized cyclone is not attached to any of the portable tools, and certainly not things like the block sanders. And even the tools to which the centralized system is attached have less than 100% effectiveness. Lastly, who has the presence of mind to dependably open the nearest gate to use the centralized system as an ambient filter. I tried the above approach ... even programming the VFD to run the centralized system at a speed that kept noise levels tolerable, and found it simply did not do the job.

In my experience the ambient filter, as well as a two-stage and/or portable tool vacuum are all fundamental requirements of today's safe shop.

[Chris Parks]

The only way the ambient air filter can be effective is there is loose floating dust in the air, sounds good to me.

[Bill Adamsen]

The only way the ambient air filter can be effective is there is loose floating dust in the air
There are loose floating particles (dust) everywhere. It is the amount and management that is in question.

[John K Jordan]

There are loose floating particles (dust) everywhere. It is the amount and management that is in question.

That's why I think a laser particle counter (like the Dylos) is good to monitor what is actually in the air. I've seen mine report high numbers when I thought the air was fairly clean. Makes it easier to put up with wearing a respirator if I know what I would have been breathing otherwise.

[Josh Kocher]

I appreciate what you are saying, and that it works for you.

But, performance-wise, running you DC serves a similar function to an ambient filter and is as effective - it moves air in the shop through a filter. CFM through a filter, that is all it is...

I disagree on "impractical" - I suppose it depends on the individual/shop/means.

For me buying and running another tool is impractical.

For me it's very practical to use the DC to cycle the air, the DC runs most of the time while I am working, I turn it on and leave it... after I'm making dust I leave it on...

I see what you are saying about noise, but that is the only argument against and I have ear plugs in anyway.

I have a drop/gate above my workbench that I connect to when I'm routing with the dovetail jig, or using a portable tool that can benefit from more than just the vacuum - I just open it to move the air in the room through the filter. It really doesn't take any "presence of mind".

It grabs and moves air through the filter as well as whatever ambient system you have I am sure.

The OP stated:"Unfortunately I am on a budget" and was looking to make sacrifices to accomodate something that will work as well as possible.

I submit that given finite resources - an effective, high quality, 2 stage DC which will collect more dust at the source and serve to cycle the air in the room, is better than the combination of a less effective DC and ambient filter. An ambient filter is not a fundamental requirement when your DC can do the job, but you have to run it.

I believe a quality HEPA vacuum is important too, but that is seperate of this comparison and you need it either way.

[Ole Anderson]

My advise is to buy a cyclone, Clearvue and Bill Pentz give actual numbers on its performance, others may but I have never seen them so I can't comment. Exhaust that cyclone to the atmosphere if possible avoiding filters and use what money you have left to equip the workshop adding more as you get more money.

Sure glad Festool doesn't make a big cyclone, enough bragging on Clearviews as it is. Don't think the rest of us would be able to stand it!:D I don't subscribe to the gospel of Pentz, but his website does deserve perusing at least once. Just keep in mind he has underlying health issues that push his agenda.

Seriously, dust collection shouldn't be an afterthought. If you plan on staying in WW, as most folks that find their way to the Creek are, dealing with dust should be early on your list of shop equipment. For most, a 2-3 hp cyclone would be a starting point. Forget baggers. You want something that can pull at least 800 cfm at your major tools. I have a 2 hp Oneida SDG that can pull 1000 cfm at my 6" gates with a 7" main run. Also a DustRight ambient cleaner (no longer available). Not as fastidious as some, but I do use a p95 mask when free sanding or blowing down my ship or cleaning filters.

"I see what you are saying about noise, but that is the only argument against and I have ear plugs in anyway."

Running a multi hp dust collector to clean your air is very inefficient when a 1/4 hp ambient filter will work as well, moving over 1000 cfm. Most of them, including mine, have a built in timer.

[Josh Kocher]

Okay one more argument against... noise and electricity...

But the cost of an ambient cleaner and filter pays for a lot of kw/h to run your bigger cyclone.

I'm not arguing against a benefit of an air cleaner, but I'll say it again, the OP is talking about budget constraints in equipping his DC and an air cleaner certainly isn't a fundamental requirement.

I'd rather direct my money into better collection at source. ie. a high quality cyclone instead of a single stage collector, or a 3hp cyclone instead of a 2hp, a 5hp instead of a 3hp... and cash left over for a high quality HEPA vacuum.

Better collection at source is more bang for the buck and you won't notice the cost of a bit of extra run time...

If money isn't an issue, sure get it all...

Otherwise I agree with Ole. Forget bags, 2hp cyclone minimum starting point.

FWIW I have a 2hp Oneida Commercial with a pretty simple run to my machines, I haven't measured the performance but it's far far better than the 1.5hp bag unit and trash can separator it replaced - night and day... I still wish it was bigger though... next shop.

[Chris Parks]

There are loose floating particles (dust) everywhere. It is the amount and management that is in question.

I agree and reading my post I should have expanded on my thoughts. My response was to the thought that lowering the standard of primary dust collection and using an ambient filter to recover that dust purposely not caught at the machine was less than a good idea.

[Chris Parks]

Sure glad Festool doesn't make a big cyclone, enough bragging on Clearviews as it is. Don't think the rest of us would be able to stand it!:D I don't subscribe to the gospel of Pentz, but his website does deserve perusing at least once. Just keep in mind he has underlying health issues that push his agenda.


Everyone has an agenda, me, you, Bill Pentz and so on. I used to frequently get calls from woodworkers and in one case a WW's wife wanting to know how a cyclone could help improve their health which had been damaged by ingesting dust. It seems a straight forward proposition to say that capturing as much dust as possible at source during machining operations is a good thing and I don't think that Bill Pentz says more than that. if there is a cyclone that equals CV's performance then use that but I personally can't say more than that as no other cyclone is available in Australia. Any product that requires handling dusty bags just concentrates the dust problem to handling the bags and they all leak anyway. We are fortunate that our moderate climate means 99% of installations vent straight to atmosphere taking away the necessity to handle filters and I am sure there are parts of the US where that could be done also thus saving money and increasing air flow at the same time.

[Bill Adamsen]

I agree and reading my post I should have expanded on my thoughts. My response was to the thought that lowering the standard of primary dust collection and using an ambient filter to recover that dust purposely not caught at the machine was less than a good idea.

I understand your point about primary capture. Having the cyclone or vacuum at the source is very important both from a health and operations perspective. Ultra fine dust particles floating around is also a problem, and one that smaller shops often ignore. I had tried to use my cyclone for removing that dust - it seemed like such a rational idea - yet ultimately found it to be ineffective as I described earlier. I am very happy with the "Bill Pentz" air filter and it was a very clever design on his part. It processes a lot of air very quickly. Even so there are many operations where I wear a dust mask or my 3M helmet papr for additional protection.

Glenn's comments are also instructive. I keep hand planes and chisels handy. Yesterday I had to cut mortises on a drop leaf table and used a chisel and Stanley #71 router plane and got the job done faster than I likely would have with a router, certainly with less dust, noise and electricity. Dust generation is one of my key process flow decision factors.