It's all going to rust, isn't it?

[Gene Davis]

We are moving early next spring to southwest Florida not far from Marco Island, and I am afraid I will have to give up woodworking. There is no space for my hobby inside the air-conditioned space of the house and thus I'll have to work in the garage, if at all.

I have heard tales about rust in this climate and fear it's a lost cause. We will be there winters only, and while temperatures are not too bad during those six months, the humidity is always way up there. And the tools will sit there year round.

Is there a way the tools of this pastime might be saved? I am getting rid of all my stationary power tools, the tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, miter saws, planer, and am trying to get down to the basic neanderthal kit I have of hand planes, chisels, and saws.

I'm losing sleep over this pending life transition.

Will plane socks help? Chisel rolls? One thought I have is to simply move the whole kit inside to the laundry room for the six months we will be traveling up north each summer and fall. They would be in air-conditioned space then.

[Frederick Skelly]

No need to give up the hobby Gene. There are many ways to protect your stuff, including Boeshield, paste wax, a coat of shellac, a dehumidifier, a tool chest with drying agent in a porous bag, etc. Or move the tools into the laundry in a rolling tool chest. Search the archives here and you'll find a lot of discussion to help you.

You can manage this, even living there half a year.

Fred

[Stanley Covington]

We are moving early next spring to southwest Florida not far from Marco Island, and I am afraid I will have to give up woodworking. There is no space for my hobby inside the air-conditioned space of the house and thus I'll have to work in the garage, if at all.

I have heard tales about rust in this climate and fear it's a lost cause. We will be there winters only, and while temperatures are not too bad during those six months, the humidity is always way up there. And the tools will sit there year round.

Is there a way the tools of this pastime might be saved? I am getting rid of all my stationary power tools, the tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, miter saws, planer, and am trying to get down to the basic neanderthal kit I have of hand planes, chisels, and saws.

I'm losing sleep over this pending life transition.

Will plane socks help? Chisel rolls? One thought I have is to simply move the whole kit inside to the laundry room for the six months we will be traveling up north each summer and fall. They would be in air-conditioned space then.

I have a lot of experience doing woodworking in hot, humid, sea-salt-ridden environs where it rains at least once a day, and a squall comes to call three times a week..

Keep your steel tools dry. Don't let the wind bring water mist during rain and storms into the garage.

Keep your steel away from cardboard and cloth in the humid garage unless you have a layer of plastic or aluminum foil between the steel and box. Chisel rolls, especially leather ones, are NG. Plane socks are good for a while, but are not good long-term. Open chrome-plated steel wire shelving, or plastic boxes are best for storage.

Keep dust from collecting on steel, since dust close to the ocean always contains salt.

Forget all that nonsense about WD-40, paste wax, and camellia oil. They won't work where you are going.

Make an oilpot, fill it with a good lightweight synthetic motor oil like Mobile One, Royal Purple, or Amsoil, and keep your steel oiled in-use.

At the end of the day, wipe them with a clean rag or paper towel, and spray them with CRC Industries 3-36. This is light enough it will coat sawteeth thoroughly. It doesn't take much.

For steel tools you will store in the garage for more than a few days, use CRC's Heavy Duty Corrosion Inhibitor.

If you need to store steel tools in your garage for more than a couple of weeks, use CRC SP-400. You don't want to use this frequently since it requires solvent to remove.

I am not a CRC sales rep. I was introduced to them by boat mechanics on the island, and found that they work and are easy to use.

Boeshield is OK, but it doesn't deal well with salt, and won't displace moisture well but floats on top and traps it.

If you do these things, rust will not be a problem.

2 cents.

[glenn bradley]

There are a number of FLA woodworkers here and on other forums. I would make your post title more informative. "Looking for Experiences Woodworking in Florida" or "Machine Maintenance for Florida Woodworkers" or "Moving to Florida, Help me save my Machines" would all garner more targeted responses to your plight.

Also, running this search with Google got me good results: "Rust prevention" site:www.sawmillcreek.org

Good luck.

[Robert Engel]

As a fellow Floridian, I'll give you my take.

Tools: Hand tools WILL rust if you leave them in a garage. If you store them in a sealed cabinet with DampRid it will just about totally prevent rusting. Wiping down with Camella or Jatoba oil after every use. You must be vigilant and stop any rust when it starts. Closely observe your plane blades when sharpening. I use the rubber sand erasers.

Machines: Personally I'm not a big fan of wax. I prefer to use something that will soak into the metal like Boeshield. Once again, be vigilant and sand off any rust as it occurs.

If you keep a fan running in the shop that helps. I think dehumidifiers will not work very well if the garage door is open while you're working.

Wood: Here is where your biggest issues will be. At night the humidity goes up in the mornings during the summer it will be in the 80-90% range. You have to acclimate your project lumber a month or two or be prepared to deal with cupped panels, etc.

I think the best solution is to make a controlled environment. For a typical 2 car garage that means insulation and a mini split AC unit. Typically walls are not insulated this may entail more work. I strongly recommend hiring out any insulation work rather than DIY.and install a mini split AC unit.

Its a big expense, but in the long it will be worth it and add value to your home.

[Matt Lau]

Stan is the most knowledgeable guy on this one, but I'd like to add this:

1. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out how to stop things from rusting. For my tools, I kept them in my bedroom.
2. Then, I tried sticking it in a wooden chest with a rust inhibitor puck. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=59367&cat=1,43456
3. My planes are in a systainer with a rust inhibitor puck and plane socks too...they work just fine.

What type of woodworking? What type of tools?
You may just want to stick it in a rubbermade plastic box with a rust inhibitor puck.

ps. I'll be trying out Stan's idea with the motor oil.

[Mel Fulks]

I like the things Matt mentioned. They have not caught on as fast as I thought they would. They really are different,it's worth reading how they work .

[Patrick Chase]

Stan is the most knowledgeable guy on this one, but I'd like to add this:

1. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out how to stop things from rusting. For my tools, I kept them in my bedroom.
2. Then, I tried sticking it in a wooden chest with a rust inhibitor puck. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=59367&cat=1,43456
3. My planes are in a systainer with a rust inhibitor puck and plane socks too...they work just fine.

What type of woodworking? What type of tools?
You may just want to stick it in a rubbermade plastic box with a rust inhibitor puck.

ps. I'll be trying out Stan's idea with the motor oil.

You can also get paper (https://www.amazon.com/Daubert-Cromwell-UW35MPI36x100-Corrosion-Inhibitor/dp/B00ANUNWTI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510439582&sr=8-2&keywords=vci+paper), bags (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=58755&cat=1,43326), mats (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=68931&cat=1,43456), cardboard squares (https://www.amazon.com/Daubert-Cromwell-UWMPICHIPS2X2-Corrosion-Inhibitor/dp/B00AYN8JDS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510439763&sr=8-2&keywords=vci+chipboard), etc that release the same volatile corrosion inhibitor (VCI) as the pucks. They all work very well in my experience. LV and LN both wrap their planes in VCI paper for shipment, and use the bags and chips for various other tools. The nice thing about VCI is that it rapidly dissipates when the tool is taken out of the container rather than leaving a waxy or oily film like a barrier solution. The corresponding downside is that VCI only works well relatively enclosed spaces.

For stuff that can't be stored in a container you'll want to use a barrier of some sort. Those can be roughly divided into 2 rough categories: Ones that stay liquid (motor oil, CRC 3-36, WD40 etc) and ones that "dry" and leave a wax film behind (Boeshield, CRC SP400, paste waxes). Within those categories there are also different characteristics in terms of initial penetrarion etc. I mostly use CRC 3-36, which initially penetrates but then "settles down" into a stable liquid film after the volatiles flash off.

Note also that steels have varying tendencies to rust. One noteworth example is LV's PM-V11, which is a true stainless (>10% free Chromium) and is very corrosion-resistant. HCS and iron plane bodies are unfortunately on the other extreme.

Maybe this could be your excuse to "invest" in some nice bronze-bodied LN planes? :-)

[Doug Hepler]

Gene,

Don't despair. There are lots of WW in very humid climates who have solved this problem. I'm one of them. Did you forget that you posted in General Woodworking? You got a lot of replies over there as well as here: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259233-Woodworking-in-the-garage-in-Florida.

Doug

[Thomas L Carpenter]

What is an oilpot and how is it used?

[Chet R Parks]

Thomas,
See here The Essential Oilpot (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243280-The-Essential-Oilpot)
Chet

[Stanley Covington]

You can also get paper (https://www.amazon.com/Daubert-Cromwell-UW35MPI36x100-Corrosion-Inhibitor/dp/B00ANUNWTI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510439582&sr=8-2&keywords=vci+paper), bags (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=58755&cat=1,43326), mats (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=68931&cat=1,43456), cardboard squares (https://www.amazon.com/Daubert-Cromwell-UWMPICHIPS2X2-Corrosion-Inhibitor/dp/B00AYN8JDS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510439763&sr=8-2&keywords=vci+chipboard), etc that release the same volatile corrosion inhibitor (VCI) as the pucks. They all work very well in my experience. LV and LN both wrap their planes in VCI paper for shipment, and use the bags and chips for various other tools. The nice thing about VCI is that it rapidly dissipates when the tool is taken out of the container rather than leaving a waxy or oily film like a barrier solution. The corresponding downside is that VCI only works well relatively enclosed spaces.

For stuff that can't be stored in a container you'll want to use a barrier of some sort. Those can be roughly divided into 2 rough categories: Ones that stay liquid (motor oil, CRC 3-36, WD40 etc) and ones that "dry" and leave a wax film behind (Boeshield, CRC SP400, paste waxes). Within those categories there are also different characteristics in terms of initial penetrarion etc. I mostly use CRC 3-36, which initially penetrates but then "settles down" into a stable liquid film after the volatiles flash off.

Note also that steels have varying tendencies to rust. One noteworth example is LV's PM-V11, which is a true stainless (>10% free Chromium) and is very corrosion-resistant. HCS and iron plane bodies are unfortunately on the other extreme.

Maybe this could be your excuse to "invest" in some nice bronze-bodied LN planes? :-)

Patrick:

Have you read test results, or made your own investigation of the corrosion resistance of PM-V11? I have not used it, and so cannot comment, but I know from experience that Hitachi's ZDP-189, which contains around 20% chrome, is not as rust resistant as many tool steels with less chrome. My point is that high Chrome content is not a guarantee of corrosion resistance.

Interested in hearing your thoughts.

Gene:

VCI chemicals are very useful, but they are less than effective if salt (e.g. wind-borne, dust-borne, or hand sweat) is already on the steel before it is exposed to the vapors.

New tools are clean and without salt on the surface, so VCI chemicals are very effective for NIB tools, and manufacturers have found them to be great packaging material. But after using the tool, how clean is it? Do you wipe off every trace of skin contact?

It is absolutely true that VCI's only work in enclosed containers. Is that a viable storage condition for you?

Patrick has it right. All oils are liquid (until they aren't) and evaporate over time leaving steel unprotected. Some last longer than others, and are more resistant to oxidation. Vegetable oils oxidize relatively rapidly, and can even turn acidic as they become rancid. So you need a liquid oil, something easily and quickly applied, very stable, and petroleum based (ergo synthetic motor oil), for daily constant use as both lubricant and surface protectant.

And you need something that is easily applied but that displaces moisture and then seals the steel from surface moisture when you are not using the tools. Paraffin wax is a proven sealant that does not readily oxidize or evaporate, and is pretty neutral. But by itself, it will not displace water. SG. Boeshield is paraffin wax with a solvent carrier of some sort. In my experience, it is not good for displacing moisture. CRC 3-36 is also paraffin based, but the solvents it contains do make the spray displace moisture, so I recommend it.

CRC SP-400 is some sort of wax too, but it dries into a solid skin that is very effective, but more difficult to remove.

I grew up in the desert where nothing rusts. I learned about serious corrosion in Thailand and Japan, both hot and humid. But my real education kicked in on the hot, humid, stormy, salty little island of Guam, aka "Armpit of the Pacific." Steel turns red and goes away quicker there than anyplace I have ever seen. Scary. So I asked the boat mechanics who have to deal with steel exposed to hot, wet, salty conditions all day every day, and they suggested the CRC products. I stored all my steel tools in my non-AC garage for 18 months. i did not store them all away in containers after each use, but kept many on and under the bench and on wire shelving the entire time. I was already using an oilpot and synthetic oil before Guam, but it was not enough. The boat mechanic's advice was invaluable.

Stan

[Barney Markunas]

Be careful if you are using synthetic motor oils as part of your rust defense system. Some of them are hygroscopic. You don't want the oil in your oil pot to be attracting moisture.

[Chet R Parks]

Barne, Is there a way one can tell which are hygroscopic??
Chet

[Barney Markunas]

I believe it is the ester based oils that are the ones that are hygroscopic. My organic chemistry classes were a very long time ago. A Google search should turn up something more current and more specific.

[Patrick Chase]

Have you read test results, or made your own investigation of the corrosion resistance of PM-V11? I have not used it, and so cannot comment, but I know from experience that Hitachi's ZDP-189, which contains around 20% chrome, is not as rust resistant as many tool steels with less chrome. My point is that high Chrome content is not a guarantee of corrosion resistance.

I own a lot of PM-V11, though I can't say that I've really stressed its corrosion resistance. I live in California and am a fanatic about corrosion-proofing. My statement was based more on knowing the identity of the alloy and its well-established reputation in the knife world.

No steel is truly rust-proof, it's just a matter of degrees. That's why I said "very corrosion resistant" instead of "corrosion-proof" or something like that.

For classification purposes the line between stainless and not is drawn at 10% *free* Chromium, meaning Chromium that is in the metal matrix rather than bound up in carbides. As an example, D2 has 12% Cr and is *not* stainless because >2% Cr is in carbides. A steel down at that bare minimum won't be as corrosion-resistant as one with higher free Cr (and there are a bunch of additional variables such as ferritic/austenitic/martensitic), but they had to draw the line somewhere.

As far as anybody has been able to tell via XRF, PM-V11 is Carpenter CTS-XHP, which is a "true" stainless with 16% Cr. I don't know (and can't remember how to estimate) the percentage of free Cr, but the fact that Carpenter bills the alloy as stainless means that it's a safe bet that it's in excess of the 10% threshold. In terms of reputation, it's known to rust more than the most resistant stainless alloys, but less so than ZDP-189 and far less than non-stainless steels.

ZDP-189 has 3% Carbon IIRC, which means that a fair bit of its Cr will end up in carbides rather than in solution, so that's probably one of the reasons why it performs on the low end of the stainless range in terms of corrosion resistance. With that said it's still a lot more corrosion resistant than typical tool steels.

[Patrick Chase]

Sorry about the double-reply, but I wanted to take this part separately...



It is absolutely true that VCI's only work in enclosed containers. Is that a viable storage condition for you?

They don't have to be fully enclosed, for example the VCI impregnated mats work pretty well in typical tool chest drawers with "leaky fronts". You have to change them every couple years, but that's about it. Your point about contaminants is right on - the metal surfaces need to be clean for VCI to work, and if you're going to clean you'd might as well slap on some 3-36 while you're at it :-)



All oils are liquid (until they aren't) and evaporate over time leaving steel unprotected. Some last longer than others, and are more resistant to oxidation. Vegetable oils oxidize relatively rapidly, and can even turn acidic as they become rancid. So you need a liquid oil, something easily and quickly applied, very stable, and petroleum based (ergo synthetic motor oil), for daily constant use as both lubricant and surface protectant.

And you need something that is easily applied but that displaces moisture and then seals the steel from surface moisture when you are not using the tools. Paraffin wax is a proven sealant that does not readily oxidize or evaporate, and is pretty neutral. But by itself, it will not displace water. SG. Boeshield is paraffin wax with a solvent carrier of some sort. In my experience, it is not good for displacing moisture. CRC 3-36 is also paraffin based, but the solvents it contains do make the spray displace moisture, so I recommend it.

The thing with Boeshield is that the non-wax components are all volatile, and once those flash off you're left with a thin coating of dry wax that is easily damaged/removed by handling. The nonvolatiles in 3-36 remain in a "sludgy" liquid form after the solvents flash off, and can "flow" a bit to fill scuffs etc. My experience with the two is similar to yours: 3-36 works much better in practical applications where handling is an issue.



CRC SP-400 is some sort of wax too, but it dries into a solid skin that is very effective, but more difficult to remove.

SP-400 is the same idea as Boeshield, but with a more durable wax that is much more resistant to both handling and removal/cleaning. I only use it if I'm going to store something for a while. It's very effective for that, though.

[Stewie Simpson]

As someone who resides in a coastal town, my recommendation would be SilberGlide.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/new%20cabinet%20saw/_DSC0246_zps2dmllkz5.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/new%20cabinet%20saw/_DSC0246_zps2dmllkz5.jpg.html)

[Patrick Chase]

As far as anybody has been able to tell via XRF, PM-V11 is Carpenter CTS-XHP, which is a "true" stainless with 16% Cr. I don't know (and can't remember how to estimate) the percentage of free Cr, but the fact that Carpenter bills the alloy as stainless means that it's a safe bet that it's in excess of the 10% threshold. In terms of reputation, it's known to rust more than the most resistant stainless alloys, but less so than ZDP-189 and far less than non-stainless steels.

One way to get a very rough handle on this is to look at the amount of Carbon available to form carbides, assuming that the matrix is uniformly eutectoid. The Cr carbide found in steels is Cr3C2, which contains 6.5 times as much Cr as C by mass.

CTS-XHP has 1.6% C, of which ~0.8% is in the matrix and the remaining ~0.8% is available to form carbides. Even if all of that formed Chromium carbide rather than carbides of other alloyants it would only bind 5.2% Cr, leaving 10.8% free. It would appear to be a legitimate stainless.

This sort of rough analysis hints at why ZDP-189 has marginal corrosion resistance. It has 3% total carbon, of which ~2.2% is available to form carbides. That much Carbon could conceivably bind up to 14.3% Cr (again depending on what specific combination of carbides forms), leaving 5.7% free. I don't think that's actually what happens, though somebody who knows far more metallurgy than I would have to clarify that. Does Hitachi advertise it as stainless?

[Doug Hepler]

What is an oilpot and how is it used?

Thomas,
My "oilpot" is a rag saturated with Boeshield and Johnson's wax dissolved in turpentine so that it is somewhere between tacky and damp. I use turpentine because it does not evaporate as fast or as completely as MS and I like the aroma. This rag sits in a very small plastic food container with a snap on lid. I have three of them, located in each location where I keep chisels or planes. I give each tool a wipe before I put it away. When I go back to use the tool again it is not oily and does not need to be wiped off before use.
(I probably don't need to do this in Colorado but it's a habit that I acquired in Florida. The salt from my hands really promoted rust.)
Doug

[Stanley Covington]

One way to get a very rough handle on this is to look at the amount of Carbon available to form carbides, assuming that the matrix is uniformly eutectoid. The Cr carbide found in steels is Cr3C2, which contains 6.5 times as much Cr as C by mass.

CTS-XHP has 1.6% C, of which ~0.8% is in the matrix and the remaining ~0.8% is available to form carbides. Even if all of that formed Chromium carbide rather than carbides of other alloyants it would only bind 5.2% Cr, leaving 10.8% free. It would appear to be a legitimate stainless.

This sort of rough analysis hints at why ZDP-189 has marginal corrosion resistance. It has 3% total carbon, of which ~2.2% is available to form carbides. That much Carbon could conceivably bind up to 14.3% Cr (again depending on what specific combination of carbides forms), leaving 5.7% free. I don't think that's actually what happens, though somebody who knows far more metallurgy than I would have to clarify that. Does Hitachi advertise it as stainless?


Patrick:

Thanks for the insight. It explains a lot.

Hitachi does not advertise ZDP-189 as stainless but as a tool steel. It is much more corrosion-resistant than HC steel, but less so than some others, like 440C. It gets very hard at 66~67Rc, and cuts very well, but has problems with brittleness, so they often laminate/sandwich it with the more flexible and corrosion-resistant ATS34 to make a rikizai for kitchen knives. A bitch to shape even pre-hardening. It does not make a good dive knife.

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

As someone who resides in a coastal town, my recommendation would be SilberGlide.

From glancing at the SDS (https://d347awuzx0kdse.cloudfront.net/carbatec/product-download/silverglide-1ltr_msds.pdf) and the manufacturer's site (https://www.silbergleit.de/) this appears to be a pretty standard microcrystalline hydrocarbon paste wax along similar lines to Heritage Wax. Those work perfectly well to provide a barrier against corrosion, with the caveat that they don't penetrate like Boeshield, 3-36, SP-400, etc.