Air powered tools and compressor

[Mike Berti]

I am considering adding an air compressor to my “shop”. Love the air powered tools that come with many advantages over the electric ones. I was thinking to use it for spraying, drilling and sanding. As expected, size and costs are important. No problem with the spraying equipment. However when I checked about sanding - I was more than surprised. Random orbital sanders require 17 cfpm while all other tools require far less. Even grinders. First, is that correct and why? What compressor can deliver such air pressure?

[Jerome Stanek]

Dynabrade is one of the best out there. We have some that are going on 10 years with everyday use. They do use a lot of air but a good 5 HP compressor will keep up with them

[Bill Dufour]

a real 5hp compressor, two stage, at least 60 gallons, 240 volt only.
Bill D

[Mark Bolton]

I will urge you do to a lot more research. Air tools are becoming a thing of the past. Manufacturing the quantity of air required for most air tools in a woodworking environment is outrageously expensive. Its not just about buying a compressor, its about buying a compressor, a dryer, coalescing filtration, and so on. In our small shop we have perhaps $7K invested in making air. We avoid high consumption air tools like the plague (was glad to see the last dynabrade go bye bye). Certain tools are great for air. Nailers, staplers, large impact wrenches (vehicle maintenance), work holding, CNC clamping and tool changing, but the vast majority of operations can be run far cheaper and more efficiently on AC or better yet DC power in todays world.

You are not going to make enough quality air with a 5HP home center style compressor to run any amount of air tools. A sander will outrun that compressor in minutes. You will likely have no DC and have to rely on downdraft or some other means of dust collection.

To even dip your toe in the water of making real air your will be looking at a 7.5HP two stage compressor (recip), $1k for a decent refrigerated dryer, $300 for a simple coalescing filter, and your still going to have to sit and wait if your running a lot of air.

Scrap the dryer and you'll have water dripping out of your sander in short order. Scrap the filter and you'll have oil on your work fouling your finishes.

Do your homework and stick with AC/DC for anything you can, go with a home center compressor and good filters or static moisture separators for spraying. Your power bill will be less, your ears will thank you, and youll have more money in the bank for tools an wood to do the things you enjoy.

[Andrew Gibson]

Bill and Mark are right on the money as far as I am concerned. I do a lot of automotive work and love my air tools. I have a Quincy 60 gal 5hp dual stage compressor 175 max psi. It barely keeps up with a 6" DA sander.
for spraying and running any other air tools it is perfect. In fact I have built 2 engines and painted my 70 c10 this year and the compressor was perfect if not overkill. The sander gives it a workout but it does keep up. It would be too small in a production environment. For the money of my compressor alone you can buy a dc random orbit sander with dust extraction that will be as smooth and powerful as an air sander and have excellent dust collection, and be quiet to boot. I don't have any air drills but for the amount of drilling that happens in a wood shop a modern cordless is hard to beat. on a final note, a lot of the guys I know that work as mechanics are converting more and more to cordless tools.
Edit, you will need a compressor to run your plasma cutter.

[Mike Berti]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I didn’t see this topic discussed a lot on Internet forums.
In particular I appreciate the insightful posts by experienced folks. You can’t beat real life experience. Having said that some issues still remain unclear:
1) Stepping into any tool store (shopping for a nailer), you will find 30 pneumatic models and perhaps 2 electric (if at all). Why isn’t the market flooded with battery operated nailers (like drills)...?
2) I checked hand held random orbital sanders: you’ll find top electrical powered models at $500 or more, while the pneumatic version will cost about $150...
3) Speaking of the above - the electric model is rated at roughly 1/3 HP, but the pneumatic will require a 5-7.5 HP compressor....
4) Most air powered tools (drills, grinders, nailers) I checked are simple, made of metal and relatively small. They are also cheaper. (I may be wrong, but to my eye they look more reliable as well...)
5) Paint sprayers: a few recommended portable models come with mini turbines and are small and light. Why they don’t require the refrigerated dryers and coalescent filters (both expensive and voluminous)? They cost anywhere between $150 - $500 for the entire package.
6) Many compressors sold are small (pancake, hot dogs, burgers). If they are insufficient, who buys them?

[Jerome Stanek]

I have a 5 HP 2 stage compressor, a 20 gallon tank style and a pancake one each has it's spots. When I was building houses the 20 gallon would run 4 roofing nailers or 3 framers. Then when I started doing store remodels I would take the pancake to do trim work. I do have a couple of air DA sanders but I grab my electric one when I am in the shop.

[Doyle Alley]

Mike, I think what you are missing is that Mark was saying that low air consumption tools are fine. Those are things like nailers, staplers, clamps, etc. High air consumption tools are just too much for the average homeowner to manage (i.e. afford to feed). Those are things like sanders, grinders, etc. In the middle are things like paint sprayers. With regard to sanders, there is a reason that auto shops still use pneumatic sanders. Most auto body work is done wet. Wet sanding with a pneumatic sander is great - not so great with an electric sander.

[Jim Becker]

Pneumatic Nailers? Yes! Spraying finishes? Yes (with an appropriately sized compressor...this application really needs a larger tank for best results) Sanders and the like? Nope! For all the reasons already stated.

[John K Jordan]

I am considering adding an air compressor to my “shop”. Love the air powered tools that come with many advantages over the electric ones. I was thinking to use it for spraying, drilling and sanding. As expected, size and costs are important. No problem with the spraying equipment. However when I checked about sanding - I was more than surprised. Random orbital sanders require 17 cfpm while all other tools require far less. Even grinders. First, is that correct and why? What compressor can deliver such air pressure?


Mike,

I have an Ingersoll Rand 5hp 60 gal two-stage compressor rated on paper at about 15 CFM. It will keep ahead of any air tool I have with plenty of punch for the 1/2" drive impact wrench I use on farm equipment and other tools in the shop. I also use needle scalers, air file, nailers, sheet metal shears, die grinder, and a couple of random orbital sanders. However, my two sanders are small - a 3" palm sander and a 2" Grex pistol grip sander. (The Grex is my favorite sander ever at the lathe.)

I don't have the specs on the palm sander but the Grex specs say it uses just 8 CFM. However, both sanders are variable speed and they use MUCH less air with lower speeds.

The question I would have about the big sanders you are considering is can they be run with less air at lower speeds? Would lower speeds work for you? I never use my sanders at full speed - I prefer the more gentle low speed sanding action. I'm surprised at how well they work at even very slow speeds. The finish I get is fantastic.

JKJ

[Brad Barnhart]

I don't use any of my air nailers outside the shop anymore, nor do I loan them to ANYONE for ANY REASON! I've got every nailer I'll ever need, & probably a couple I never will again, but air tools take a lot of maintenance, should be handled in a different way than cordless tools. The compressor has to have enough cfm to constantly supply clean, dry air to the tool consistantly. After you buy parts for the first framer bcause some genious dropped it off a roof, you'll have wish you'd a bought cordless. Keep your air tools in your shop, in their cases. They'll stay clean & last longer there! Drain your compressor regularly if you are in a high humidity area

[Jason Roehl]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I didn’t see this topic discussed a lot on Internet forums.
In particular I appreciate the insightful posts by experienced folks. You can’t beat real life experience. Having said that some issues still remain unclear:
1) Stepping into any tool store (shopping for a nailer), you will find 30 pneumatic models and perhaps 2 electric (if at all). Why isn’t the market flooded with battery operated nailers (like drills)...?

It has to do with the impulse delivery. Shooting a nail requires a very quick, high-level delivery of energy, something that batteries are not very good at providing.


2) I checked hand held random orbital sanders: you’ll find top electrical powered models at $500 or more, while the pneumatic version will cost about $150...

The electrical models contain their own dust collection and motor. The air-powered units don't have the dust collection on-board, and they only have half of the motor.


3) Speaking of the above - the electric model is rated at roughly 1/3 HP, but the pneumatic will require a 5-7.5 HP compressor....

This just shows you how inefficient air-powered tools are. But, with them only containing half the motor, they can be lighter for a given delivered power--you wouldn't want to swing around a 2/3-1 HP random-orbit/DA electric sander.


4) Most air powered tools (drills, grinders, nailers) I checked are simple, made of metal and relatively small. They are also cheaper. (I may be wrong, but to my eye they look more reliable as well...)

Back to that "half the motor" thing, plus there are some other safety considerations concerning electrical insulation with electrical tools.


5) Paint sprayers: a few recommended portable models come with mini turbines and are small and light. Why they don’t require the refrigerated dryers and coalescent filters (both expensive and voluminous)? They cost anywhere between $150 - $500 for the entire package.

The turbine-type paint sprayers deliver a high volume of air at a pressure that is only slightly above atmospheric pressure. It's not enough of a difference to cause condensation. There is a different potential problem, though--turbine air can get hot and cause dry-spray.


6) Many compressors sold are small (pancake, hot dogs, burgers). If they are insufficient, who buys them?

Small compressors are fine for tools with the aforementioned sharp impulse deliveries of power--pneumatic nailers and the like, which use a small, internal tank, plus the air in the hose to deliver a short burst of energy when the trigger is pulled. Running something like two framing nailers, shooting many nails per minute would cause a small compressor to lag, but nailing is often done in short bursts, then a rest, during which time a compressor can catch up. Running a sander or sprayer takes a large, continuous volume of air, which the small compressors can't really do. They can for a very short time until the tank pressure drops below the delivered pressure, then the user has to pause and wait for the compressor to catch up. These small compressors are also made to be light and portable (for contractors), so they don't have much of a duty cycle--typically 50% or less. That means they can only run about 30 minutes out of every hour or less (actual motor run-time) before they get too hot and risk severe damage.

[Mike Cutler]

I am considering adding an air compressor to my “shop”. Love the air powered tools that come with many advantages over the electric ones. I was thinking to use it for spraying, drilling and sanding. As expected, size and costs are important. No problem with the spraying equipment. However when I checked about sanding - I was more than surprised. Random orbital sanders require 17 cfpm while all other tools require far less. Even grinders. First, is that correct and why? What compressor can deliver such air pressure?


Mike

There any number of compressors that can supply 17CFM. However, you are looking at a minimum $1K investment. My 5HP, 60 gallon, Rolair, can supply 17cfm, but that is just the beginning. As Mark Bolton pointed out, the accessories necessary to provide quality air can easily cost more than the compressor itself.

One thing to watch out for is the rating on air tools. Many manufactures will use some "Madison Avenue License" on their stated air consumption, and rely on what they predict will be the on off cycle of a tool and give you the average consumption based on that. I am willing to bet that if you take out the "average" CFM, any decent sized DA sander is going to need 35+ CFM to operate continuously. Pneumatic sanders are air hogs.

The reasons I have for a "large" vertical compressor, are almost all car and truck related. I can use it to spray finishes of course, but 99% of my needs for air in the wood shop, and around the house projects, can be satisfied with my smaller Rolair JC-10 at 2.6 cfm.

The quality of air tools is the same as with electrical powered tools, and price does make a difference.


I'm not trying to dissuade you from getting a large compressor. They are very nice to have around, and sometimes there just is no substitute for being able to deliver a large amount of air very quickly, such as setting the bead on a tire, and a reactionless ratchet is very useful for cars and trucks, and less bulky than any electric substitute. It's just the cost benefit I was looking at.
By the time you would be at the point of using the pneumatic sander, for example, for the first time dollar wise, you could have probably bought three, maybe four, Mirko, or Festool sanders.

[Darcy Warner]

The manufacturing world is moving away from air Sanders, overall cost to run a shop full is greater than electric Sanders.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I didn’t see this topic discussed a lot on Internet forums.
In particular I appreciate the insightful posts by experienced folks. You can’t beat real life experience. Having said that some issues still remain unclear:
1) Stepping into any tool store (shopping for a nailer), you will find 30 pneumatic models and perhaps 2 electric (if at all). Why isn’t the market flooded with battery operated nailers (like drills)...?
2) I checked hand held random orbital sanders: you’ll find top electrical powered models at $500 or more, while the pneumatic version will cost about $150...
3) Speaking of the above - the electric model is rated at roughly 1/3 HP, but the pneumatic will require a 5-7.5 HP compressor....
4) Most air powered tools (drills, grinders, nailers) I checked are simple, made of metal and relatively small. They are also cheaper. (I may be wrong, but to my eye they look more reliable as well...)
5) Paint sprayers: a few recommended portable models come with mini turbines and are small and light. Why they don’t require the refrigerated dryers and coalescent filters (both expensive and voluminous)? They cost anywhere between $150 - $500 for the entire package.
6) Many compressors sold are small (pancake, hot dogs, burgers). If they are insufficient, who buys them?


#1 - As I stated, nailers, staplers, and so on are perfect candidates for air. They are low volume users. They dont require a compressor to run non-stop generating tons of heat which in-turn creates a lot of moisture and oil in the air flow. There is a reason why even a small construction compressor has tank drains on it. Its because a vast quantity of moisture is created in the process of making air. In the case of construction/small/and even home center 80 gallon compressors you have manual tank drains. These will often times flood your floor with gallons of water if you dont bleed them off regularly. This water sits in the bottoms of your tank(s) and #1 rots them out, #2 makes your delivered air WET, and #3 makes your delivered air rusty.

#2 When you see a high end electric sander for $500 you have to factor out your cost of making air. Again, the cost is that of making "clean" air. Not the air that comes out of a cheap compressor(and down stream accessories). An air sander expels air out the head. If your air is dirty (full of oil and water) that oil and water will spatter all over everything you are sanding. Beyond that, just think of it. Your running a 5 HP motor (minimum) to power a sander that needs to consume less power than your toaster in your kitchen. If you need to learn your lessons the hard way just install the biggest compressor you can afford, and start sanding. Watch your electric bill, and try an electric sander (preferably the $500 model, we run Mirka's). Unless you really enjoy the jollies of air tools (we all lust for them when we are young, impact wrenches, air ratchets, die grinder and so on) you will soon see the economics of the cost of producing vast quantities of quality air.

#3 Im not sure what your point is on this one but yes, if your interested in running a 5-7 hp compressor to do the work of an 800 watt sander and tow around a bulky air hose, not have on board dust collection, and have to wear ear plugs the entire time, than yes.. the air sander is the route to go. Our DC brushless sanders are silky smooth, quiet, and on flat work pick up nearly 100% of the dust.

#4 Im not so sure about simple when you look at an air motor but sure. You can pick up a pneumatic drill at lowes for 40-50 bucks. It will never out drill decent corded electric drill. RPMS are lower, torque is lower. The worst thing is your hand will be frozen solid after one hole. We have small milwaukee corded drills in the shop that will twist your wrist off if you catch them. I can stall an IR air drill without even trying. Again, air ratchets (wouldnt live without one), impact wrech (still use electric more than air), sprayers, sure.

#5 Spraying with turbines (we have a 4 stage fuji that we use a bit) is completely different than compressed air. Back to the compressor making lots of heat, and oil, in the air stream, you get oil and water. Two things that dont work well with spraying finishes. A turbine still makes heat but not to the extent that it is causing quantities of water to condense into the air stream. The turbine does not consume oil so there is no issue with oil in the air stream. My only reason for not using a turbine for spraying is volume, and noise. When your spraying for hours on end day after day a turbine isnt going to cut it. They have a bulky hose due to low pressure, high volume, and.. they are just noisy. If I were running a small/home shop I'd be running a turbine or spraying occasionally with a larger compressor when needed.

#6 No one said small compressors are insufficient. Your blurring the lines. They are perfect for what they are intended for. Low demand, impulse type, tools (nailers, staplers, and so on).

Darcy has hit the nail on the head. Large industrial operations are re-evaluating their cost of producing huge quantities of air. For a reason. Its outrageously expensive. As I said, imagine sitting in your shop and because you get your rocks off on air tools because we have all wanted them, your are powering your little 5" DA sander with a 5-7 hp compressor that is chomping all that electricity, burning through oil, wiping out filter elements (or powering a dryer) trying to remove the burnt oil and water, AND making decible after decilbe of RACKET in your shop. OR you could be in your shop, with the radio on, no dust mask, sanding with you brushless RO, a small shop vac running in the corner sucking up every drop of dust, and to beat the band.. you dont have to clean your shop at the end of the day!!! Now your making money right? Its that or the compressor, oil, water, high dollar compressor, no dust collection, noise, ear plug, no music while your sipping on your beer and sanding your heart away, and then at the end? Your whole shop is coated in dust... put your janitor hat on and get another beer lol.

[Peter Christensen]

It was said earlier that air powered sanders don't have dust collection.

Dynabrade have 3 flavours of palm and many other sanders in different sizes. You can get them without any dust collection, self generated vacuum and central vacuum (attaches to a vacuum cleaner). They do eat a lot of air but being small and coming in more types and sizes than electric, they can be more useful.

http://www.dynabrade.com/dyn10/content.php?page=quicksearch&search=palm+sander

[Mark Bolton]

It was said earlier that air powered sanders don't have dust collection.

Dynabrade have 3 flavours of palm and many other sanders in different sizes. You can get them without any dust collection, self generated vacuum and central vacuum (attaches to a vacuum cleaner). They do eat a lot of air but being small and coming in more types and sizes than electric, they can be more useful.

http://www.dynabrade.com/dyn10/content.php?page=quicksearch&search=palm+sander

Right, and look up a Dynabrade 3.5" self gen. Unless you buy on ebay they are between 200 and 300 dollars US. And will require require a minimum of 16CFM. A $1200 dollar quincy single phase 60 gallon compressor makes 15 at 90 PSI. Now look at a 5" or 6" self gen lol.

[Mike Berti]

John,
I am talking about a hobby shop in a garage - small scale. The "big sanders" I was referring to, are standard 5"-6" ROS. The electric ones can run at lower speeds, albeit not in the smooth way pneumatic ones do. The consume roughly 1/3 HP which is negligible. That explains my surprise when learning that an air driven tool will need 5-7.5 HP to perform the same job.




The question I would have about the big sanders you are considering is can they be run with less air at lower speeds? Would lower speeds work for you? I never use my sanders at full speed - I prefer the more gentle low speed sanding action. I'm surprised at how well they work at even very slow speeds. The finish I get is fantastic.

JKJ

[Peter Christensen]

Mark I am not about to take a hard line on either side of the argument. I was only correcting the statement about there being no dust collection and to say there can be reasons to get air tools, primarily size and access that electric tools can't always address. It is up to the individual or business to decide what is more important and cost effective to them. All the facts need to be known and considered.

I actually have a 6" Dynabrade random orbit sander that I use and my 5 HP compressor easily keeps up to it. I know it isn't as efficient a setup but for the amount that I need it as a hobby woodworker I can squish a lot of air and make a lot of dust for the cost of buying a new electric sander.

[Bill Dufour]

Most compressors are set up to run at too much pressure like 175 or higher. Most shops need nothing over 125-150 psi. Increase the motor pulley to maximum amps at 125-150 psi and get more airflow where needed. Of course the pump will be louder and not last as long.
Bill

[Bill Graham]

I am considering adding an air compressor to my “shop”. ....
What compressor can deliver such air pressure?


Here's one: 5 HP (230V), 16CFM@100PSI, Vertical 60 Gall Compressor

(http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/rolair-5-hp-vertical-air-compressor-v5160pt03x)
I'm not a big fan of air tools, they're too damned noisy and, except for the wrenches lack torque. Air nailers are God's gift to carpenters. I use my compressor for spray guns and nailers and that's about it. and a blow gun.

[Bill Dufour]

I bet it is a misprint but the specs for that compressor say it is made in Azerbaijan!
Bill

[Ole Anderson]

I was refinishing my RV and had some runs and bad orange peel on the clear coat to fix. So I thought I needed to wet sand them out and being lazy wanted to use a power sander. So I picked up a $30 DA air sander from O'Reilley's. I started with 400 grit wet/dry which worked very well. I loved the action of the sander with the VS trigger effect. But I soon realized that my 1 hp compressor was badly under matched for the sander. I knew it would be, but not as badly as actually happened. It would work fine for about 30 seconds before my 12 gallon tank ran out of air, rpms would fall to nearly zero and the sander would stall. The other issue I ran into is that wet/dry paper finer than 400 (or was it 800?) is very expensive, something like $4-5 per disc as it was foam backed.

[Mike Cutler]

Here's one: 5 HP (230V), 16CFM@100PSI, Vertical 60 Gall Compressor

(http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/rolair-5-hp-vertical-air-compressor-v5160pt03x)
I'm not a big fan of air tools, they're too damned noisy and, except for the wrenches lack torque. Air nailers are God's gift to carpenters. I use my compressor for spray guns and nailers and that's about it. and a blow gun.




Bill

That's the compressor I have. It does everything I need it to do.

[Mike Berti]

I bet it is a misprint but the specs for that compressor say it is made in Azerbaijan!
Bill
Hahaha, Azerbaijan? A famous air compression center...
Funny, when made in the US, it’s in the first line in the discription. Azerbaijan however, only the achronim hidden down somewhere. Looks a little like Arizona...
On a serious note, this model looks like the smallest and lowest cost compressor to fit the bill...

[Bill Adamsen]

Pneumatic sanders are great for wet/dry sanding where standing in a puddle of water might make using an electric less attractive.

[John K Jordan]

Pneumatic sanders are great for wet/dry sanding where standing in a puddle of water might make using an electric less attractive.

Now that's something I never imagined - wet sanding in the shower.

JKJ

[Bill Adamsen]

Now that's something I never imagined - wet sanding in the shower.

JKJ

Sometimes it feels like it ... wet sanding boats can be a very wet activity indeed. You need a fair amount of water to flush away the waste.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm just going to beat a dead horse here.

You want as little air consumption as possible. It's an extremely inefficient and expensive way to transmit power or energy. If there's a viable electric too; that can do the job, you want that. You still need air for certain things for sure, but anywhere you can get around it, do so.

I have pneumatic clamps, tools with pneumatic actions, pulse jets for filters, even some gates on the dust collection that are hard to reach on air, but we don't use a pneumatic sander except for a few small tasks. Most of the shop could run off of a fairly small compressor. I spent about $3500 building the air line system, $900 filtering it before any air gets in the pipes, and another $8000 to compress/cool/dry the air. All for 52cfm at 125psi. I wouldn't have done it unless I had to. I'm hoping to add a cnc soon, that alone week gobble up almost a third of my capacity.

The point is, that's a lot of capital and it takes a lot of money to spin that compressor over. Plus maintenance, and it won't last forever.

[John K Jordan]

I'm just going to beat a dead horse here. You want as little air consumption as possible....


To give that horse a little CPR (having horses, not something I would want to actually try!): With 12 grand in an air system it sounds like you might have a commercial shop and have to pay attention to operating expenses. For some of us with hobby shops the energy expense is relative and perhaps of less concern. A hobby user might also be willing to live with the reduced duty cycle of a smaller compressor.

I used a cheap little pancake compressor when building a horse shelter with two of us using framing nailers. We did have to wait on the compressor but we got 'er done. The (live) horses are now sheltered and unbeaten.

JKJ

[Rich Engelhardt]

Pneumatic sanders are great for wet/dry sanding where standing in a puddle of water might make using an electric less attractive.
Pneumatic.....anythings...... are great for wet/dry sanding where standing in a puddle of water might make using an electric less attractive.

Plus - they have other advantages that I admit, I'v forgotten over the years.