Industrial Engraving... Worthwhile?

[Greg Facer]

Always wanted to start with this.....

Not for me, asking for a friend!

I know someone, retired, who has recently gotten a bug to get into industrial engraving, having had work done for various boats and equipment over the years. He and I have been discussing the topic and have come to a few conclusions so far.

1) Pricing is low, or at least it is low when you go looking for it online.
2) Service levels are expected to be quite high, 1-2 day turn around (plus shipping) seems normal. Not sure if that is again a bias based on what is advertised versus a silent majority.
3) Rotary Machines are the way to go. Trotec's maybe, but certainly versus a chinese laser (like I have for cutting acrylic mostly).

There is an old thread here with another member who was getting into industrial tags, and the dollars she mentioned didn't seem too exciting compared to what a full time business with overhead, etc....ie what I run normally, would need. It might be OK for part time work from home but even then, not sure. I know in our business, any job has a minimum time it takes to cut, finish, invoice and possibly ship the finished part, but some of the sites online (small outfits) have a $2 approx and 1 tag minimum and $4 shipping.

Now, if that's just because the orders are normally larger and they get so few small orders, I get that, but if you need to run 100 different tags at $3 each....that seems (to me, again, not in the business) like it might take a while and that's still only $300 in revenue......and much worse if those 100 tags start getting split between multiple customers / materials / colors / sizes / or job sites.

So, before it's too late, am I missing something? Is industrial engraving a niche that might be worthwhile on it's own (not as an incremental add on) as a business or is it closer to just "self-employed" earnings? I know the margins on revenue versus materials are great, but I still can't see it without pricing the operator labor dirt cheap or unless volume and average sale is a lot higher than I would think.

[Rodne Gold]

You have to ask a fundemental question as a start up.. why would a customer use you?

[Ian Stewart-Koster]

Very good point, Rodney...

and question 2 is do you want to invest a small fortune, in order to be able to undercut others and make very little return on the investment, or why are you wanting to get into business, if not for a reasonable profit and the hope to be able to retire one day...?

P.S. Greg, when you say 'industrial engraving', I'm assuming you mean stuff that is supposed to last? The substrates with greater longevity are not the cheapy ones that fade or go brittle in the sun. If tackling any industrial market, quality & service must be of greater importance than low price... $2 a piece sounds rather like craft market junk...

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't agree with your comment that a Rotary machine is the way to go. In your example, you site 300 different tags. On a Rotary, the bit would have to engrave every tag, so you aren't getting much economy with motion. However, with the laser, you do get improvements. It might take 1 minute to run 1 tag, but it might take 2 minutes to run 10 tags. Speed and power are certainly your friend when it comes to quantity.

There are many differences in retail and industrial, and they vary from location to location, but in general, industrial aren't as price sensitive as retail. We don't try to compete with online companies. Going on my 11th year here and not once has one industrial customer told me they could get something online cheaper. In general, if you are the type of customer that is going to go online to get your tags, then we probably won't be a good fit for each other. I'm not fighting to get the lowest possible price. We give a fair price for the work we do.

[Mike Null]

I think you're about as far off target as you can get. Read Steve's comments again.

[Robert Bonenfant]

Like Ian has stated, you will need to spend a small fortune if you plan on targeting Industrial, Commercial Customers right out of the gates. Remember a Cnc operator can operate several machines at one time, this allows reduced pricing but high cost to acquire the machines. Large companies enjoy this benefit, you being a start up will have to find a way to offset this cost savings so you can offer better pricing, Maybe you buy new high end equipment that is the fastest in the industry. You have to find something that will make your business special, it could be speed or maybe you offer 10 different services under one roof. If your targeting business you will most likely need a Commercial space, a customer with a $50k Contract doesn't want to see the product being engraved in your home garage. Its possible and many of us have had success but its not easy, dont be afraid of 60 - 80 hour weeks, 40 hours is a thing of the past :-)

[Mike Null]

60 - 80 hour weeks, 40 hours is a thing of the past

Absolutely!

[Scott Shepherd]

80 hours? Slacker!

[Rodne Gold]

Buy a $5000 desk/benchtop 30w fiber laser .. a cheap way into industrial engraving .. suck it and see.. you wont lose the farm

[Greg Facer]

I think you're about as far off target as you can get. Read Steve's comments again.

Sorry, which comments are those? I don't see any Steve on the thread....Very willing to read any comments that might enlighten me!

[Greg Facer]

Hi Scott,


I don't agree with your comment that a Rotary machine is the way to go. In your example, you site 300 different tags. On a Rotary, the bit would have to engrave every tag, so you aren't getting much economy with motion. However, with the laser, you do get improvements. It might take 1 minute to run 1 tag, but it might take 2 minutes to run 10 tags. Speed and power are certainly your friend when it comes to quantity.

My comments on Rotary is based on the depth of the engraving (and even the top layer is thicker for non-laser material, is it not?) versus laser and the poor results I have ever had in messing about with my 80 watt Chinese laser.....but engraving proper engraving material has never been it's main use. I do one job for a magic products inventor and that's it, and it takes forever....so much so that I am thinking about moving that to my CNC next time. And, if a trotec is twice as fast, I think it's still slow. However, if a trotec and more experience would make it 5x faster, yeah, then I start to see laser as a clear winner.

I admit I don't have the right laser to compare to a rotary, but most of the industrial (think electrical equipment information tags by what I mean) I see seems to be of a style that a rotary would make.....hard to tell if that is *actually* how it's made sometimes. I also have zero familiarity with fiber as per Rodne's suggestion. What I see in youtube of Rotary versus *my* laser, rotary seemed better, deeper, and perhaps more versatile for industrial engraving uses like metal with paint.

Thanks for the comments on your business versus online....that is helpful as research is easy online but isn't always the best places to base a plan on.

[Greg Facer]

Hi Rodne,

Does fiber work with plastic engraving materials? My friend hadn't mentioned fiber once and I am not too familar either. A quick look at youtube shows it's good for metal though!

Thanks, Greg

[Tim Bateson]

If you are talking Fiber lasers, a Gantry style Fiber just won't do. I do find use for mine, but the Galvo, that puppy stays really busy. Advertising is generally a waste of money. Going door to door is a waste of time. If you are any good, they WILL find YOU. Price... don't even think about undercutting another engraver, cost isn't much of a factor for most of my commercial/industrial clients.

[Greg Facer]

To Rodne,


You have to ask a fundemental question as a start up.. why would a customer use you?

My Friend has no idea. It's hard to know as these are "sitting on the fence" discussions. We don't know the market personally and we don't know who the actual competition would be. He can buy some equipment, he has business experience and I don't doubt he can differentiate himself just fine...but he is trying to decide if this niche that has caught he interest is a worthwhile pursuit. A lot of these "hypothetical" discussions come down to average order size in terms of price. Obviously, pricing can be adjusted for smaller orders, but he's not too keen (to start) if the majority of business is small orders. He's also very specific that he wants to pursue if this can be a "business", ie worthwhile if run by an employee in the long term, not something that only makes financial sense as a 1 man show.

He would not likely be looking at undercutting anyone (as per Ian's comments) but knowing what is out there is important, to a point.
The comments of Mike and Scott about 80 hour plus work weeks....well, let me just say that I hope they make a lot of money for those hours!

[Greg Facer]

If you are talking Fiber lasers, a Gantry style Fiber just won't do. I do find use for mine, but the Galvo, that puppy stays really busy. Advertising is generally a waste of money. Going door to door is a waste of time. If you are any good, they WILL find YOU. Price... don't even think about undercutting another engraver, cost isn't much of a factor for most of my commercial/industrial clients.

I have forwarded some youtube videos of those machines for him to look at.

[Mark Sipes]

I have both a laser and rotary engravers and sublimation. On most days all three processes are used to support industrial customers. I think you need to define your use of the term "industrial" .... is a hotel industrial?, what about an electrician, an assisted living facility, schools.... and what requirements do each need in support....... some need name tags, door plates, metal and plastic tags, interior signage......

I have several customers that place small orders every day....... Shipping is just part of doing business on their part.... controlling shipping costs for your materials is the trick.

Producing a quality product in a timely period is the best "Advertising" along with business cards and a web presence ..


.

[John Noell]

Sorry, which comments are those? I don't see any Steve on the thread....Very willing to read any comments that might enlighten me!

"Scott" is really a Steve (from the fine print in his signature block).

[Greg Facer]

"Scott" is really a Steve (from the fine print in his signature block).

Palm, meet face! Thanks for that, I missed it!

[Mike Null]

Greg

The CO2 laser is my "go to" equipment for industrial/commercial/institutional customers where engraving is required. For all the various labels, small signs, tags, etc. I use the laser and often bevel the edges for appearance with a beveler. I have a rotary machine and it can do similar work but unlike others I use it mostly for diamond drag work. I have a friend who likes to use his rotary for tags and small signs because he can bevel them with the rotary after he engraves them and they require no clean-up as lasered tags do.

As a general statement, I think it's very hard to make a living with one machine. I do many things for my customers and only part of them are laser based.

[Rodne Gold]

My fiber works exceptionally well on most engraving plastics and metals. cuts and engraves the plastics ..

[Rodne Gold]

If you want to do industrial engraving , you have to have some real knowledge of materials and how they react to the various lasers and you have to be willing to undertake some difficult challenges in terms of marking or cutting objects .. industrial is NOT just running off 100's of tabs .. anyone can do that and its cut throat out there with those type of jobs
Forget the promotional industry .. they are whores for a penny .. they will leave you for the cheapest guy around

We service our industrial clients with multiple machines , cnc for metal cutting , deep engravingand panels , c02 lasers for acrylics and other items and fibre for marking , we also do digital printing and doming and so on
For under $15k , you can get a decent 80w co2 , a 30w fibre and a fairly large overhead cnc router/engraver and service your clients
however it still boils down to the original "why me"
Well in my case we are a one stop shop .. we can do anything from huge billboars to marking titanium hip joints .. we never say No .. always find a way , we deliver excellent quality and most importantly we deliver on time..
We also advise on the best and least expensive way to achieve what the client wants in terms of materials and suitability
You have to think and promote a "big business " mentailty , choose corportate colours , a decent website , professional quoting and invoicing , customer follow up and so on .. if you think big , you can get there.
If you the only game in town , its not too difficult to get ahead , if you face competition in your locale , the other guys , unless they giving poor service , will beat you on price and experience.
You HAVE to have a hook .. something that differentiates you from whatever else is out there.

[Greg Facer]

If you want to do industrial engraving , you have to have some real knowledge of materials and how they react to the various lasers and you have to be willing to undertake some difficult challenges in terms of marking or cutting objects .. industrial is NOT just running off 100's of tabs .. anyone can do that and its cut throat out there with those type of jobs
Forget the promotional industry .. they are whores for a penny .. they will leave you for the cheapest guy around

We service our industrial clients with multiple machines , cnc for metal cutting , deep engravingand panels , c02 lasers for acrylics and other items and fibre for marking , we also do digital printing and doming and so on
For under $15k , you can get a decent 80w co2 , a 30w fibre and a fairly large overhead cnc router/engraver and service your clients
however it still boils down to the original "why me"
Well in my case we are a one stop shop .. we can do anything from huge billboars to marking titanium hip joints .. we never say No .. always find a way , we deliver excellent quality and most importantly we deliver on time..
We also advise on the best and least expensive way to achieve what the client wants in terms of materials and suitability
You have to think and promote a "big business " mentailty , choose corportate colours , a decent website , professional quoting and invoicing , customer follow up and so on .. if you think big , you can get there.
If you the only game in town , its not too difficult to get ahead , if you face competition in your locale , the other guys , unless they giving poor service , will beat you on price and experience.
You HAVE to have a hook .. something that differentiates you from whatever else is out there.

Hi Rodne,

I get that. I have the 80WCO2 and the 5x10 router at my shop, but as I have mentioned I never found the chinese CO2 that great at engraving. I could add it to my plastic fabrication business if I wanted to but I am moving in enough directions at once already. I don't really agree with the "never say no" mentality but I have been there, done that, just don't do it now....I "can" do too much, what I should do is much narrower but I'm in a decent sized market so I have the luxury to be narrow.

The goal for my friend is the niche. Like you say, 100's of tags might be cut throat but that is certainly more his hopes to keep it narrowly focused and hard to tell how cut throat it is unless in the business. I say that I could add engraving to my business, and maybe I could, but it's not be banging at my door in any way either (and I do quite a bit of other signage type work).

We will see, he is working out what he thinks he would need to see to give it a try and I am giving him the time to knock it around in his head.

Thanks everyone for the replies!