2x6x16’ oak handrail shaping questions

[gary wenzl]

A little background info (and keep in mind that I’m just a wanna be woodworker).

I’ve been searching (with no luck) on how to best make the roundover on a 2”x6”x16’ oak handrail (its very heavy)

I purchased a grizzly C153h5 router bit for my 3-1/4 hp router. But after receiving it the box says max 12,500 rpm (web site said 24,000 rpm). My PC isn’t a variable speed router.

So I ordered a collet spindle for my little 1-1/2hp g1035 shaper. I made a taller fence for it thinking I could tilt my baby feeder 90 degrees and run it against the vertical (6”) handrail. But now that little voice inside me is telling me not a good idea.

Rethinking it I am now considering either an additional tall board fence and clamp. And using the baby feed like I normally

Or maybe a stackable feather board.

Or make this an excuse to own a new router!

I also purchased a C1584 finger groove bit that I was going to use first before the round over.

I have 4 rigid flip top feed supports and 4 roller style supports that I was planning on using with the shaper.

[Bradley Gray]

I would want to use a router. !6' long and heavy is gonna require more set up than it's worth to run 1 piece.

I would double check with Grizzly about the speed and get a different bit if necessary.

[gary wenzl]

Thanks Brad , and I did check with grizzly. First call the guy said don’t worry about it we sell a bunch of those and never a problem. Called back later in the day and the gentleman said he didn’t know but would find out and call me back. He did and confirmed 12,500 rpm is correct.

I guess I could always use another router, (been looking at the 3-1/2 hp Milwaukee).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Gary,

I would love to see:



Pictures of the board
The bit that you use (picture, link, etc)
Picture of the result


I have installed a few handrails, but, I have never attempted to create my own. I purchased my oak handrails from Home Depot (or similar), cut them to size, added the wall return, applied finish, then installed in place.

I am very curious about your process, setup, equipment as you tackle this task. I can't wait to see the profile that you use for your handrail.

My guess is that the board is far more expensive than just buying the handrail.

Good luck with this, and keep us updated on what you do.

[John R Green]

Gary
They are code spec's for handrail design
Google Stair Code
John

[John TenEyck]

As said, there are codes handrails must meet so make sure you learn what they are and adhere to them. I made these "little" handrails for a job a few years ago. They are only 1-3/4 x 3-3/8". The longest was about 14' long, but it was still pretty heavy.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6w9cghnhexuyJUW9k4czenap4kqPyjDvFeMnsNSQ-zj_wQgeoORmtIfHNhVPRU7KdGpG16pYsv32oenGMqrTEvcYqxr IYPI_BMJ99I7I7JlVhAhOvZy5N1YbCd9tMHLux0ZEmHBnlfHc-bBI8UNbhU3AS9JCrAWLU6MqfSGpvscqIvAlPOINa2GELstJ53F BHOigl6BXlU4l-2CNRnAMJEZNmpFtE8q73ycHdT4d3NMeYvmkyTRBDe-k8d2oPWkx1O5dos3aofdsvhFsXIjX0_03Gt9oHjCzk81BtPWRp YYAeFdCTsWHd580am7B8_HGylupeucjR8_Fw1iuhkqTV0_gfoo ccy3lhSXpUmvlWA-zZTkO24FjTS6FnMOLrzh-lgeJeCNgSR48XD5MXTmTUArT1oUEF9MkL3PeAwu4lOXXELNzwA aN6Fv3JcKb9F8_shSwNqFoKfFqcYHsHITRnu7U_7F1jMhhnl_1 RnwCIs4cJnz29VG_kigKtNvCfc-wwAnvJCl1WKhcp5ASzQBCQbRQrxSZ-sXul8_s3XXF8BAOG8Z0ys8cnKcskjXkXOCmD6CvStqCmMPaov8 qT_OLn8EaxYhEz1rbEmWx-TVLfbY89nmLZP9gHAcySn2Ql-t9gsF1c_eiqr0OrQXaWWgKBG0vdS87ustwLT58=w669-h305-no

The top profile was cut with a hand held, fixed speed router. I just connected the router to a Variac to lower the speed. You can buy a cheap one from HF that works fine for about $20. I now have one and have used it w/o problems with my 3+ HP Hitachi whose speed control died. The benefit of using a hand held router is you can use a climb cut and that eliminates tear out, plus of course the hand rail can just lie on the bench.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Hx7yw0VRV_9yKvtn_b8FhamJaoj9abnez1SKO2XUQgl2xbzbxb AmxeYs3Hf0Dn-DtqyBpc_82DtBq79WcORHf3skEpB4lbLSlwoO8geuj0isR1Ni_ _XbG2ZKfc-HWzUX6WDRoJ5bhFsTv4wrfflfSb_CvtJyjQ3RBj8Bn-sM5i8_RQSZ5vKpbnnCYVsLmCiAhfvgeuh9HGrE5ZmlDRG4H5pj 6gWgVEPh-ahWCGcGyVWpIL5hqKBH64BetrFIQrz3mlox_b5prLQCbp-HgYxM0YqaPmiIdxRCcP1IWCM7Iu7-mx5ORQQ64T-M9Au07Hs2kUbtFycpVvPfJ8GUa57F08oZH6ND2G8AZdIYutOsZ smmRj4zyuvVyh4ONe64lGvIcIwUx8_8bysAP6kh8u0jZdH5BHT Pm5_-mEZEQPXj3tDG9DfiBsFdZ4J2wxLh2dKUon-Il7oAKV9Xk7e1Ony2oyAIHnp2NOlwDW4--13xvVf0CNHMpKDv5JzWmdbV9CmJIfHufrH4bfXmU5Cxqk58epm mopjUzQ4DVUE4ov8RKxrYfSzFPdh9HT6DPzbhtv24SCRO_Qxlf yUD8pFn_lhNiDcqncxkm2XUUqirqr9_OwqropvXj5BYzA1KgMA pTyonNq0rS9gbXeT7D6oB7yd0GQKFD2aRVMYKIZbs=w838-h628-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/H_uOUDW-MFqIqdm4VrRtNdh9dL6PoLnVcbS9k9U_qzey3nJbOiJqQKfQHY GpsU6eWyNpNiIFv11GPdhexO1_02DRNo7eM9YTJVPrWki4_VqZ Yc_KoXa0NV0GCroW8JLEuhdyMNIsj8jsjzBdAXSLOXzFSRsYZy osQqPYxB0h7dF-rPVuTIiI-s5FEOOk8Snl85EAXSQ21P-gnvVpWZ_vhlutJZoFFJKg_sMg5xmKWsItqeZRSX26nxROO77tZ qtjBHjy1DKXMvkPPHxtvgeStIbBWRhuXex9hQBDV6z5W-J5RursLLev4piMb5qjF_zCPtkO2cZxn1qdyFzKI0VOL57MrlYO VpUvxglYHbvEAYv4WPJc-OOZod_BxPv1z5Cb0Ob6EjHX8oXd-LQtMEp4lRvbTfTKlPEnDUxaPk9dqj2E1gs8zVKZRbsJbS-psY2a98KTWA5ptNX_ZR3-HSCPnr1WQPIK9fQYNJsoaEoyzhEzxMbTycSGC8CnHtXqJ3KPXh y_ebO-LJXCZp83BABRfGTTYNdgFUHkMm87M2bFlzuVD5tDBCX4vBZBH3 OFaDvKfdH79Wwn9ox2oevddLrWnLAA9oqW2TnBST6tYPElWEfS LmR6AXZQUMhqeSis9wquEcQwOvrlk3icW6Js4nWU6M6iI8aGcv rFuXwo=w838-h628-no

The side profile was cut on the TS. The angles were cut with the blade set at that angle, the rest was cleaned out with a molding bit.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GNvM2VAwpY2jxNkZOYN0enVaRUVJtnTF5tVMhNXA6m3Sf32B1k c8NPXMplFkyIC2YNC1ubxz5daYhMJvQq3iiWKYEuA82wzX9cUN jeJNoRrH9eHujacTblTmCMacd6Y3PSDTXwthZ1dHfSe6d7chHk KGn0EQKVz4x4ePV6MK7PzeJ92te1dBZD6i78CyIH3y0ixB4W0a 5ErfRUpK6Q63PWOIjsAfRfpwcu8AfKQ9VKRzfnL4bzh3P4CVD5 cgFGJEOEk-LM2v-o-SRNr8gw0I4jC7YHGiMTesuWJGksmoO8A0uVqki9FkM_jsi9URn 4AhQqV9ynut5atMIkR5NBQBgL846mweMlM3lgw1cwxm27z4A6j SRGTSFBczccCcvLnn_o0HdP9pKFgnA_gmz2FSVq8FILLC1Dki2 aR4sLWOGsSUEZz1dG8N_jJ5ZPZWWTbvannidwD_W7o2ncNERX6 eJ_Iun2C69SUKxFlbQ6sQ-O7Cag3EPNwBitlD-mkX6ugaVXoKW528gsCbvbUTjtW38vlktb7hpKUqLm0cKgIqgCs ab0wFcXKYZoiOFIb1Ry09y2iRlG0LZ3MOwAcFs1SfRXov3UXrW oEq68eE85JFTMdqiEn8FqC1grJFB5SFn6XTfMexgADwb1kQx-DQRjxpbNEAtIv7RPt39ayP=w838-h628-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/DsOOsycSOIWVt33qASqT-BDvne7ECy7YC2egHQWCSA2jutbEMMe3SuuNWJaXlXBbHKlSIqA OBCG1cOE-3-uC8r9Hr8NxU7ym7Fgo9ecv8hNk-DNJ7-pIMoDwJDXDH8GmbeSUej_jbxo36eWLKVfdItH2DcUHS_iUX5wl Asm7QCn25oFGj8rzZOAfV6GkzJLWH8krUDFKw7m1HdrNau92Hh WRlzg_c5coMw_MafeJ8FuGmzFnuFhZmmbSoDdhSU4utUWAXZ8-ZaUzDCmHwMOAnmTd-_mNRGUzzz_OibZj1r6rbGIcncIjiNIcMMK-lD-AkFa96H0ey0F7s2cE4A0JrZIGGQrbiQkU_JoGtSjw_xTMLHgb2 M8Mq1Lt6PlOSLX5b1BvYcQ4aN_v3Bxn90DmuLxhZVFKyfLrkkT USSe_x9uAYaKkiLARxBMa7WYc-NvZte1kYhiBQxrS2SAV6EGouIsJ2SBysIaSbfvzECjcEfmMr1j LsYjCYdxUIpsWB8tT-Fm0JMQwOt0iesuF97Fmo9RgQ-ObARc1nIB8FKsPoc3V8XkYZKcq0FylgCBQf5E6SEvwioaxnX7f DOa_y6AQCxnXmLFfCRTtVtDml5_qOrjyg-oi221wk5yCL_duKvrxFnutCzNEM3cggEife4DSKeusfiylc3Hj 8fhz=w838-h628-no

Use what your have.

John

[gary wenzl]

Very nice John! I like your work!!!
Looks like you may have used s similar router bit for the round over.
I’ll look at a Variac. A guy is probably guessing at the rpm but I think I’d go as slow as what seems practical.

This guy wants a finger groove with no thumb groove.

I knew there was specs for handrails but was thinking more on mounting requirements so thank you, I’ll google it!

I’ll have to learn how to post pictures (not that I’ve taken any yet).

I bought my 12’ boards from the sawmill I use to cut up my logs (I didn’t have longer boards left and low on oak so its a little unusual for my to buy someone else’s cut up logs). Cost was close to $200 and I still have two 12’ boards left over.

So far I’m just completing the last glueup, need to complete it as it’s taking up a lot of room in my little 21x24 shop.

I’ve made one other simple oak 2x2 handrail 14’ long.

Sorry I fat fingered the router bit number earlier, it’s a C1535

http://www.grizzly.com/search/?q=(C1535)

Doubt I’ll ever do this big again, my bad shoulders and arthritis don’t like lugging around those heavy boards all glued together!

[gary wenzl]

John your post was most helpful, I picked up several good points I didn’t even consider. I also really appreciate those photos, a big help!

But I do have one question or clarification, what is a climb cut?

[gary wenzl]

John your post was most helpful, I picked up several good points I didn’t even consider. I also really appreciate those photos, a big help!

But I do have one question or clarification, what is a climb cut?

Edit, never mind, I see now that my shaper will not go down far enough to take smaller cuts and that I’d have to take off the majority in one cut. I was thinking I would do multiple passes like a router.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

[QUOTE=gary wenzl;2743126But I do have one question or clarification, what is a climb cut?[/QUOTE]


http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping/TechInfo.aspx?p=56809

First, think of a spinning car tire. If you drop something onto the tire, it will throw what you dropped on it in the direction that the tire is spinning.

The router spins a bit (that cuts the wood). The bit, like the tire, will have a tendency to want to pull the wood in the direction that the bit is spinning.

If you PUSH the wood into the bit in the opposite direction that the bit is spinning, then the bit kind of pushes back against you as you push into the bit.

If you push the wood into the bit in the same direction that the bit is spinning (a climb cut), then the bit wants to grab that piece of wood and throw it in the same direction that you are trying to push it, and this is more difficult to control.

So, you need to use extreme care when you make a climb cut.

Watch a few youtube videos.

[John TenEyck]

Here is a link to one version of the codes relating to stairs and handrails. http://www.brockportny.org/files/building-code/Stair-construction-visual-2006-Code.pdf

To clarify about a climb cut, it is something you should never do on the router table unless you have a power feeder. But it is easily and safely done with a handheld router IF you take small bites. The router will try to run uphill but the force is so low that it's easily controlled. After you reach full depth taking incremental climb cuts you make one last pass the other way. It's surprising how doing that often results in just a little more material being removed.

Thanks for the kind words Gary. Here's what that handrail looked like installed and finished. I built and installed the entire balustrade. The homeowner did the finishing.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OHVCCdMHS-kGOrv5V4AZH4eAjLUDfyOVItdNgXqCOWCPa8nXAYwssU35UIlr K1pgiuUwOyj0cl1ylwKYTmJKJUDcvHVjmzcbK3gluR1TaT8z9L sporg3VE4KbVatPIyxTOUXhaqRLgBP0uAtY_dY423hxmuxkTGU kwrHG2tdIu2ajewufPNFLAN_vDgXj24zToCGhKYtCBXYiDCUmQ iz0P770J5YNTxgLom1K7WVA8WOc9aGonWIpTHkIDzEh_YCbdh1 e6u10CcGdrZ5Xj943RhW9feHHiwE36YI5ANlTyOsnUsAoG4Fo4 2WK5CYuCELRwVaVPeiJrI0_Ksp7Qur-_sv6wsWnqJMjhBSnrXX5Vv5bpUCiCC3RqN0strcbcoXyZXK3KV 1hC0836VsIHlaPX0OT5b__khxpVyZwVStCdmEyco57jwr1sxn4 IRBBzhkEjTmovdAf1WQvBx8BC5XQHg3jQH697nUuziQuGBw8Yt bpYh3wEzpg2o_dMKUiBLdTjOG-fImI6wD3PoLMc9O1h_FJuDZJ2f8I_Zyyxfm9eXlV8dtmN2pYK5 7QHpycd5YwDYah9xrabFNhKxIRBiTRT4De-f4dVy_Ccdwq1OHe0EX6UQU8bFQguTabZrFR1CdEhOpbDr2Ofor sdwPLl2ipdiIHYDSXTFBh-2n=w803-h628-no

[Mel Fulks]

Thank goodness we don't see a lot of those " returned to wall " handrails. They are for the "the rest home"

[John TenEyck]

Thank goodness we don't see a lot of those " returned to wall " handrails. They are for the "the rest home"


Returns prevent the snagging of clothing, purses, etc. and are required by code where I live for residential handrails.

John

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Returns prevent the snagging of clothing, purses, etc. and are required by code where I live for residential handrails.

John

Same here...... so I did it to mine as well.

[Mel Fulks]

Yes, they are required. But we have already covered how to avoid. The stairs are so steep even in most expensive homes
that as late as the 1930s code 8" riser -9" tread were called "cottage stairs". Wouldn't surprise me if they make it even steeper and add rock climbing harness.

[gary wenzl]

Thanks for the explanations of the climb cut. Guess I have done it before and didn’t realize that it had a name.

I’ve been out of town but will be try to work on it more this week and get with the customer to show him these codes.

That handrail is very nice! I really like it

[gary wenzl]

A little update- Between a little discouragement, my arthritis and life just being busy, I wasnÂ’t able do anything with this handrail yet.

What I did find out was neither of the two finger groove router bits I purchased will go down far enough (from the top or as far as I would like it).

I like the table saw finger groove cut idea but because of the size of this handrail and my modest 22x24 shop IÂ’m looking at other methods or ideas?

Considering using my porter cable router edge guide to make the finger groove and then either a round over and/or 45° chamfer

Thought IÂ’d run it by you guys. I was going to glue up a (another) shorter board with same dementions to experiment with. Thinking It also double as a guide when I get ready to do the top round over.

I also have a butt joint gap IÂ’m trying to decide what IÂ’m going to do.

[John TenEyck]

Gary, I believe this is the bit I used to cut the finger relief on one set of handrails. http://www.grizzly.com/products/Handrail-Bit-Finger-Grip-of-Set-1-1-2-Shank/C1536?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com

There are many ways to get there - as long as it meets code and looks attractive.

Also, I don't make butt joints when having to join pieces of wood to make the handrail longer. I use offset scarf joints. The only exception is internal pieces that won't show; then a butt joint is fine.

John

[gary wenzl]

That router bit is similar to one of the ones that I purchased

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Finger-Grip-Bit-1-2-Shank/C1584

And the other is a Freud 99-444 (thought this one would work and I could maybe come in from the top).

Being just a want-to-be wood worker and no prior experience I didn’t even know what a offset scarf joint is. Good thing for google

The last handrail was oak and was getting painted so I butt jointed them together with good results. This time not so much, maybe it was the larger boards, larger glue up, working on the floor, impatient and lack of proper preparation.

[Peter Christensen]

Because you are only doing a one off you could cut the finger grooves on the table saw by feeding the wood over the blade at an angle. If the blade is tilted the groove will be asymmetrical more like the router bits you looked at. A little sanding once done will smooth them out and ease the edges if desired. If you haven't done it before search for coving on a table saw.

[gary wenzl]

That’s a good idea and I’ve seem videos but have never attempted it.

I was hoping to use the router only because the length of the handrail is withing a couple feet of my woodshop.

[rudy de haas]

Is it possible for you to find someone with the right gear and have them do it for you?

As people here point out you can do this job with a table saw (presumably with a roller table at each end) and a hand held router - but.. yikes! sometimes the right tool makes all the difference and this may be one of those times. Someone with a full size shaper and roller set up can do this in minutes and get it absolutely right the first time - and that may be worth a few bucks to you.