Joinery question

[Mitchell Ristine]

Hello all,

I am making a maple island top.370837
I intend to wrap the top in 1 x 2.5 stock that I milled for a cleaner look and to act as an apron to hide where the top of the cabinet meets the top (the top is 1.75 thick).

BUT, I am worried about attaching stock to the butt ends because of expansion.

Thoughts?

[Derek Cohen]

You must allow for wood movement, especially in a kitchen. I would use breadboard ends.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mel Fulks]

You could add an apron under the top ,set back a little from the top edge.

[Jerry Miner]

You are wise to be concerned about adding a cross-grain conflict to your top. You could end up creating a "Panel of Doom" (https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/whats-wrong-with-this-picture)

Either an apron under the top, attached in a way that allows wood movement, or a breadboard end that is constructed to allow wood movement can work---but do NOT make a rigid connection with a cross-grain piece.

[Steve Peterson]

You could cut 1-1.5" off the end and glue it underneath for the apron on the ends. It would avoid the expansion issue, but you would see the seam. One cutoff could be ripped in half and used for both ends if the grain pattern matches close enough. The side you cut from should be a really good match.

[Prashun Patel]

If it were me, I'd put thin molding recessed under the top to hide the seam to the cabinet. But I wouldn't bother with an apron or breadboard end. (Assuming the boards are edge-grain up) it wouldn't be doing anything functionally. The top is plenty thick for a counter/island @ 1.75".

[Mitchell Ristine]

I am pretty new to this stuff. Does this work if I have no other fasteners or glue on the end except the dowels?
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[Mitchell Ristine]

If it were me, I'd put thin molding recessed under the top to hide the seam to the cabinet. But I wouldn't bother with an apron or breadboard end. (Assuming the boards are edge-grain up) it wouldn't be doing anything functionally. The top is plenty thick for a counter/island @ 1.75".

Yes, plenty thick. The apron is purely aesthetic.

[Jerry Miner]

Does this work if I have no other fasteners or glue on the end except the dowels?


Not a good idea, IMHO. Depending on your climate zone, you can expect about 1/8" of wood movement per foot of panel width-- so a 36" wide table can move about 3/8". If your top is edge-grain-- rather than face grain-- the movement will be reduced by about half. This still leaves about 3/16" of movement. Do you want a 3/16" gap to appear in your top?

I would let the end grain show, but if you REALLY want to cover it, the best way is with a breadboard end. But remember that the movement will still happen, so at different times of the year--depending on humidity-- the ends will be flush to the sides, and at other times they won't be.

[Mel Fulks]

Apron could be a two piece "L" held under top by screws through slots allowing for movement. Sheet copper "swags"over
top of each leg would lap over apron hiding slightly open joint. You can google up pics of "table knees"

[Wayne Lomman]

I agree with Prashun. If you must hide the joint between top and cabinet, some form of moulding is best. Better still is to have a clean transition from top to cabinet so that nothing is needed.

Breadboard ends are a solution to a problem that only exists for those who can't bear looking at end grain. Cheers

[Bill Adamsen]

You could cut 1-1.5" off the end and glue it underneath for the apron on the ends. It would avoid the expansion issue, but you would see the seam.

A common buildup approach with stone is to miter the edge so that the grain continues across the edge and the appearance is of a thicker piece of stone. With wood (on the butt ends) you might still see the seam ... and of course someone "that knows wood" would find the lack of end-grain unusual.

[Bill Adamsen]

Definitely an issue for expansion/contraction across the end (esp. with maple). I also suspect flatness will be challenging to maintain. Didn't see how you planned on attaching to the island. Prashun and Wayne's suggestions of a simple molding (if anything) sounds like a good plan. Not knowing your design preferences, another idea might be to have a steel (or stainless) frame welded up into which the top might sit. You would still need to accommodate expansion/contraction but the welded corners wouldn't break open the way a miter would. It would be a much more contemporary look. Carbon steel can be challenging to rustproof.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Anything you add to the end will fit precisely only a small part of the year, and either be long or short the rest of the time. A breadboard, being unglued to prevent cracking, presents a crack into which water and other things can encroach. In a kitchen I would consider leaving the edge alone. In my opinion, that's the cleaner look.

[Frank Pratt]

If it were me, I'd put thin molding recessed under the top to hide the seam to the cabinet. But I wouldn't bother with an apron or breadboard end. (Assuming the boards are edge-grain up) it wouldn't be doing anything functionally. The top is plenty thick for a counter/island @ 1.75".

Yes, this exactly. It's already 1.75" thick & any additional thickness may start to look a little clunky.

[Jim Becker]

I have a similar top on our kitchen island. I can assure you that it moves nearly 3/16" or more over the seasons.I'd be reluctant to even put a breadboard end on something like this and agree with Alan that I would leave it as end-grain. It's a traditional look anyway.

I'm actually soon to start on an island top commission and even there with a more farmhouse table look, the client has agreed to leave the end-grain visible because the calculated movement would be quite noticeable with breadboard ends.