Combination Plane and Lee Valley Tuition

[William Fretwell]

370737

Well I headed off to Lee Valley with various cutters sharpened to 8000 grit and a selection of woods (Maple, Pine and Black Walnut).

This is Bill with my plane getting a work out! We tried various cutters and woods.
The maple proved most difficult with the 7/16" bead. Firstly the cutters on each side differed in size. The nickers were a problem, one side was fine the other clogged with fibres and forced the nicker out widening the groove in a lopsided way which the rail tried to ride at an angle. We took the nickers off altogether they just don't work and the grub adjustment screw can only make things worse.
Progress was very slow and very hard work due to friction of the rails. Applied wax to the rails made life much easier indeed but the wax will remain which would be a problem.
After an hour with the first groove we achieved full round over at one end and we both had a work out!

Holding the plane level is extremely difficult, as you cut the groove the fence slowly moves away from the work and needs to be moved in, the brass knobs needed periodic tightening. The friction of the rails was enormous and quite a shock.

370738

We tried a 3/8" flute in pine. It cut easily but you have to use only one rail so balance again proved very difficult. The end result was not too pretty (sorry no pic).

Next was black walnut with the 1/4" two reed blade. This wider blade balanced well and the smaller radius cut well, a world of difference to the other two.

370740

We experimented for 4 hours altogether. The plane is hard to use, it's performance varies greatly in different woods and the nickers are useless. My guess is anything but perfectly straight grain will bunch up under one or other and push it out. The grub screw pushes the nickers out also so seems counter productive only making the fibre bunching worse.

370741

Here you can see the distorted side created by the nicker.

We did use the supplied 1/4" groove blade also and had the same issues with balance and keeping the groove straight in maple.

I left feeling this is a very difficult tool. I am extremely dexterous and mostly patient (now I'm older!). If it only works for wide blades and easier woods that's frustrating. Grooves for drawers are a must, as is a 1/4" single bead for me.

Think of it as a narrow shoulder plane with ice skates for a base that has been drinking whiskey all day to drive the sober craftsman crazy.

I am trying to think of a fix for the balance issue with narrow cutters, ideas anyone?

[Pat Barry]

Seems to me that first picture tells the story. Its a very poor position structurally speaking. Those rods are not nearly capable of withstanding a tad bit of racking force that is undoubtedly going to happen the way you are doing it in that picture. The only way to overcome this to take very light cuts. Better would be to cut registering close to the intended cut (other side of the board).

[William Fretwell]

Makes no difference really. It's not the racking force but the balance. The racking is trivial and when the fence comes off the work as it does it's non existent.

[Bob Leistner]

I think if I had to do that operation, and was not having success, I would try a center support. Of course you/I would have to make one, but I think it would be worthwhile.

[Patrick Chase]

Makes no difference really. It's not the racking force but the balance. The racking is trivial and when the fence comes off the work as it does it's non existent.

It's a fairly simple matter of technique. Ask Jim, or Steven, or anybody else here who has a combo plane and they'll happily explain what you'll need to practice to be able to handle the balance issue. It's been described in several other threads for that matter.

Everything worth learning looks hard when you're starting from zero.

[steven c newman]

370770
Twould be rather nice to use one of these?
370771
Once you get this far away from an edge...

[Patrick Chase]

Good point, Steven.

For those who don't recognize what they're seeing, Steven is pointing out that the Stanley #45's cam rest can be helpful when cutting with the fence way out on the ends of the long arms. See figure 6 on p. 4 of the #45 manual (http://tooltrip.com/tooltrip9/stanley/comb-planes/45man.pdf). I personally don't like to use it much on my 55, but that's just subjective preference on my part and I see how it would be helpful in keeping the rods level. The catch is of course that you have to keep adjusting it as you deepen the cut, which is why I don't use it.

Unfortunately that's the one part of the 45 that LV didn't copy, though it's easy enough to make an equivalent out of wood.

One other trick that sometimes helps me is to use the thumb of your fence hand as a depth stop on the surface of the workpiece, though to do that you have to use a "low grip" on the fence (you can't use the provided handhold on either Stanley or LV).

[Rob Young]

Makes no difference really. It's not the racking force but the balance. The racking is trivial and when the fence comes off the work as it does it's non existent.

On a Stanley #45, that's what the cam rest helps with.

[John Gornall]

Are you using the knickers with the grain? I only use them across the grain with my plow planes

From the Lee Valley manual:

To prevent tear-out in cross-grain work, such as dadoes, adjustable scoring spurs on both the body and the sliding section define the edges of the cut ahead of the blade. These are typically withdrawn out of the way for most cuts.

[Hasin Haroon]

The plane would be a lot easier to balance and cut if you didn't use it so far away from the edge. A cam rest would help with that if you absolutely needed to cut so far, but for a board that size, why not just flip it and cut closer? It's a perfectly easy cut that way. And as someone else pointed out, you shouldn't be needing the knickers for cuts along the grain.

[Simon MacGowen]

Are you using the knickers with the grain?

Good question! And I sincerely hope not, because he was supposed to be doing all his cuts under the guidance of someone who was also supposed to know how to use the tool. Using the knickers with the grain can bring poor results depending on the grain.

I am watching this thread with great interest as I have yet to pull the trigger...

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

The plane would be a lot easier to balance and cut if you didn't use it so far away from the edge. A cam rest would help with that if you absolutely needed to cut so far, but for a board that size, why not just flip it and cut closer?.

Because of grain direction?

But I agree that the long distance from the edge is undesirable and I would rather cut against the grain with the fence close to the edge. There are various techniques to overcome the against-the-grain issues.

Simon

[John Gornall]

Also, how deep are you trying to cut with the knickers?

[Mike Brady]

Hasin, doing what you suggest would have the plane cutting against the grain, thus the long rods.

[Mike Brady]

Roy Underhill has a solution: Just have a bunch of 45's, each one preset for a particular operation.

[William Fretwell]

The plane would be a lot easier to balance and cut if you didn't use it so far away from the edge. A cam rest would help with that if you absolutely needed to cut so far, but for a board that size, why not just flip it and cut closer? It's a perfectly easy cut that way. And as someone else pointed out, you shouldn't be needing the knickers for cuts along the grain.

Actually it's not easier! With the fence starting level with the edge and your thumb on top you have the leverage advantage of the long rods for control. We did play with it closer and had less control. Once the cut starts the fence drops and makes precise control very difficult. Don't forget you will want to use it across wood some day not just on the edge.

We wanted to try the nickers, partly because of some varying grain on part of the maple. Clearly they are essential across the grain. Most of our testing was done with the nickers completely removed.
The cam rest may be worth a try, I will see if I can create one.
The most surprising thing is the serious friction and heat generated by the skates on the maple.

[steven c newman]

Ok...let's try something....next class the OP takes, have them REMOVE the nickers. Unless they are cutting a dado, not needed. The nickers will tend to push the plane out of the cut. Leave them off.

OK, next..set the depth of cut until it barely cuts anything ( even your finger) Start at the far end of the board, and make a few passes to start the cut..work your way backwards until you reach the front end. Make short length cuts as you go. Each step to the rear ( for you) the cut will be just that much , and no longer. Once you have a cut established all the way, then start along like normal. Get about half of the cutting depth, you can deepen the cut....then, just before the final two passes, go back to as thin a cut as you can....works better than sandpaper..

Balance? Thumb on top of the fence, index finger to press the fence towards the work, the other three( if you have all five) wrap around and under the fence, to where you can feel the board being worked on...Maintain contact with that board, to tell all about any leaning going on.

Maybe buy a cam rest, add a bushing so the cam rest fit fit those skinny rods...Then keep your eye on the cam rest, to watch for movement...

[William Fretwell]

Also, how deep are you trying to cut with the knickers?

Not deep, slightly more than just scoring to cut rather than just deform. One side had no issues at all.

[Simon MacGowen]

Actually it's not easier! With the fence starting level with the edge and your thumb on top you have the leverage advantage of the long rods for control. We did play with it closer and had less control. Once the cut starts the fence drops and makes precise control very difficult. Don't forget you will want to use it across wood some day not just on the edge.

We wanted to try the nickers, partly because of some varying grain on part of the maple. Clearly they are essential across the grain. Most of our testing was done with the nickers completely removed.
The cam rest may be worth a try, I will see if I can create one.
The most surprising thing is the serious friction and heat generated by the skates on the maple.

As a seasoned user of both their rabbet plane and plow plane (modified), I don't like what I see in the above as you described. I was expecting an expert -- in the sense of someone having used the new tool a LOT -- from Veritas to give you a hands on tutorial. From the get-go, everything should've worked smoothly as we have seen in the Fine Woodworking site or as shown in the video on the Veritas site.

I expected that whoever was going to tutor you would have worked the plane (almost) to death the day or days before your arrival. He or she would also have tried all kinds of cuts on all kinds of woods and in different configurations. It should have been like presenting a prototype to a group of investors who wanted to invest in the new product. Everything should have been rehearsed and you should not have spent four hours there.

The tutorial should have been done on a plane prepared by them. After that, you would then have to use your own plane to try to achieve the SAME results. If not, your plane could be replaced.

I hope there would be a better explanation to your experience.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Friction will go away...all YOU have to do is rub a plain old candle along the skates, and the fence. About halfway through a job, I'll rub the candle into the cut, leaving a few crumbs behind.....plane cleans these up, cut goes smoother, less friction...wax will leave with the plane, instead of staying on the wood.

Keep an eye on a little thread I am working on. It will involve grooves, and maybe a few beads.....Poplar Project.

[Patrick Chase]

We did play with it closer and had less control. Once the cut starts the fence drops and makes precise control very difficult.

And the diagnosis is: Nonexistent technique.

The fence does not have a mind of its own. If it drops then that means you drove it down. Practice until you can keep the fence level. It's not any harder than anything else we routinely do in woodworking. If you can saw straight then you should be able to manage this with practice.

[William Fretwell]

Friction will go away...all YOU have to do is rub a plain old candle along the skates, and the fence. About halfway through a job, I'll rub the candle into the cut, leaving a few crumbs behind.....plane cleans these up, cut goes smoother, less friction...wax will leave with the plane, instead of staying on the wood.

Keep an eye on a little thread I am working on. It will involve grooves, and maybe a few beads.....Poplar Project.

The wax at the bottom of the cut will leave but the sides I doubt. The skates are so hot the molten wax will penetrate the wood. It does make a huge difference to the cut as we found out.

[William Fretwell]

And the diagnosis is: Nonexistent technique.

The fence does not have a mind of its own. If it drops then that means you drove it down. Practice until you can keep the fence level. It's not any harder than anything else we routinely do in woodworking. If you can saw straight then you should be able to manage this with practice.

The fence drops with the cut, the challenge is keeping it level as you progress with the cut. The smallest sway is magnified by the cutters (even at a very small cut setting). Yes it is harder. Our technique was far from non-existent, despite your definitive 'diagnosis'.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi William

A couple of points: Firstly, as others have mentioned, the nickers are only for cross-grain work, such as dados. Retract or remove them for with-grain work.

Secondly, the ability to balance the plane and hold it vertical comes with practice, in the same way as sawing. For now, rather than concentrate on the plane body, focus your attention on the fence. Use your palm to force the fence flush against the edge of the work. That will ensure it is vertical. The thicker the board you are planing, the more registration, and the easier it is to keep vertical. If you hace a good clamping system, align the side of the board with the side of your bench. That will increase the registration area. The trick is to push the side of the fence, at a central point, with your palm.

Focuss on the fence and you will forget you are balancing on a tight rope.

With regard the resistance when planing, wax the fence and even the skate. Sharp blades and a shallow cut (with nickers out of the way, since they will create drag) is the way to go.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

Hi William

A couple of points: Firstly, as others have mentioned, the nickers are only for cross-grain work, such as dados. Retract or remove them for with-grain work.

Secondly, the ability to balance the plane and hold it vertical comes with practice, in the same way as sawing. For now, rather than concentrate on the plane body, focus your attention on the fence. Use your palm to force the fence flush against the edge of the work. That will ensure it is vertical. The thicker the board you are planing, the more registration, and the easier it is to keep vertical. If you hace a good clamping system, align the side of the board with the side of your bench. That will increase the registration area. The trick is to push the side of the fence, at a central point, with your palm.

Focuss on the fence and you will forget you are balancing on a tight rope.

With regard the resistance when planing, wax the fence and even the skate. Sharp blades and a shallow cut (with nickers out of the way, since they will create drag) is the way to go.

Regards from Perth

Derek

All good points that rabbet and plow users normally follow.

Question is why these were not covered in what was supposed to be a tutorial offering such pointers? All these and more could have been covered in two hours or less (including practice).

I am not trying to be hard on the tool or the tutor, but I am much disappointed by what seemed to be insufficient preparations on the part of Veritas. As I see it, the fault, if any, did not lie with the tutor but with the store that organized and managed the set-up and tutoring.

Simon

[William Fretwell]

Hi William

A couple of points: Firstly, as others have mentioned, the nickers are only for cross-grain work, such as dados. Retract or remove them for with-grain work.

Secondly, the ability to balance the plane and hold it vertical comes with practice, in the same way as sawing. For now, rather than concentrate on the plane body, focus your attention on the fence. Use your palm to force the fence flush against the edge of the work. That will ensure it is vertical. The thicker the board you are planing, the more registration, and the easier it is to keep vertical. If you hace a good clamping system, align the side of the board with the side of your bench. That will increase the registration area. The trick is to push the side of the fence, at a central point, with your palm.

Focuss on the fence and you will forget you are balancing on a tight rope.

With regard the resistance when planing, wax the fence and even the skate. Sharp blades and a shallow cut (with nickers out of the way, since they will create drag) is the way to go.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek your points are all good. The tightrope is a good analogy. Waxing the skate did make a huge difference. Concentrating on the fence was everything, using your thumb to align the top of the fence and the work surface at the start of the cut.
One other problem we found was at the end of the cut, the cutter would dig in and catch, damaging the bead end as the front skates left the board. It was suggested to make the piece longer than needed and cut the ends off. Another challenge to practice!

[Patrick Chase]

One other problem we found was at the end of the cut, the cutter would dig in and catch, damaging the bead end as the front skates left the board. It was suggested to make the piece longer than needed and cut the ends off. Another challenge to practice!

If there's pressure on the front of the skate when it comes off the edge, such that the cutter digs in like that, then you're doing it wrong.

As with any plane you need to shift pressure from toe to heel throughout the stroke. Combo/plough planes (all of them, not just the LV) are more demanding in that respect than most because there is no mouth to register to the sole alongside the cutter, so the consequences can be dramatic if you don't shift pressure to the heel in time.

Granted it can be hard to focus on that, and keeping the fence where it needs to be, and everything else you have to balance with such a complicated plane, which is why there's no substitute for practice.

If it makes you feel any better, we've all been there with this type of plane. Leaving some extra length is a reasonable interim solution IMO.

[Hasin Haroon]

I get that, but with combo planes it's always a compromise. I would pick against the grain, very fine passes over the setup shown by the OP...from my experience with combo planes (old and new) this would work better.

[Hasin Haroon]

It does seem from Williams descriptions that the tutor in this case was not a seasoned user of combination/fenced planes in general...struggling to balance a fenced plane is a technique that everyone has to master the first few times they use planes like these. I agree, it would have been better to have someone who knew how to use these planes to highlight how the plane should perform, rather than have both the tutor and customer struggle and make it seem as though the plane always performs so poorly. That said, it's not easy to have a bona fide hand tool expert that is good at everything present at every store.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Derek your points are all good. The tightrope is a good analogy. Waxing the skate did make a huge difference. Concentrating on the fence was everything, using your thumb to align the top of the fence and the work surface at the start of the cut.
One other problem we found was at the end of the cut, the cutter would dig in and catch, damaging the bead end as the front skates left the board. It was suggested to make the piece longer than needed and cut the ends off. Another challenge to practice!

Hi William

I do not recommend using the thumb to support the fence. I mentioned that it was the palm that is placed against the fence. This pushes the fence against the work piece and/or bench. Here is an old photo from my original review of the Small Plow ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Small%20Plow%20Plane_html_536468b0 .jpg

It is no different when using a rebate plane. Indeed, in the case of the Skew Rabbet, the front knob has been removed as it is unwanted. I rest my thumb on its spot. The pressure is exerted by the palm against the fence ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward_html_34fc2827.jpg

With regard the cutter digging in, as Patrick noted, the pressure on the skate must shift backward at the end of the cut to retain registration. Not only that, but pressure is lightened altogether. Keep in mind that there is no longer a depth stop to prevent the blade moving down. You need to stiffen your wrist and hold the position as you travel into the "void".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I do not recommend using the thumb to support the fence. I mentioned that it was the palm that is placed against the fence. This pushes the fence against the work piece and/or bench. Here is an old photo from my original review of the Small Plow ...

I think what he's referring to is holding the fence with your thumb over the top, such that it rests against the workpiece and acts as a sort of "fence depth gauge". I do that with my fenced planes sometimes.

[Simon MacGowen]

. I agree, it would have been better to have someone who knew how to use these planes to highlight how the plane should perform, rather than have both the tutor and customer struggle and make it seem as though the plane always performs so poorly. That said, it's not easy to have a bona fide hand tool expert that is good at everything present at every store.
I was under the impression that the OP went to the store on certain date and time as agreed beforehand with the store. If that wasn't the case, please disregard my comments about the lack of preparations by the store.
Unless the expert staff who was supoosed to be present could not make it to work due to unforseen circumstances, I could not understand why after four hours of tuition, the OP was still struggling with what is supposed to be a big improvement over the 55. I could turn someone who has never used a plow (or rabbet plane) into a competent user of the respective tool if they spend just one hour (or even less) with me.
Simon

[Patrick Chase]

Unless the expert staff who was supoosed to be present could not make it to work due to unforseen circumstances, I could not understand why after four hours of tuition, the OP was still struggling with what is supposed to be a big improvement over the 55.

When reading a "remarkable" account, one must always consider the possibility that that account is itself unreliable for one reason or another. Perhaps the LV instructor had problems with the plane as described, or perhaps he expressed empathy with and validated William's obvious frustrations (this is "dealing with a frustrated customer 101" stuff) and William misunderstood that as an admission that the instructor himself had similar issues. Perhaps LV actually did have some sort of campaign to reach out to customers about "wracking" problems as William claimed in his previous thread (and they just happened to forget to call all of the rest of us here on SMC who have that plane), or perhaps he misunderstood in that instance as well. Etc etc.

Also there's only so much you can do to improve usability of a plane that has no mouth, no sole, a fence that sometimes needs to be positioned distant from the iron, etc. Combos are among the most difficult planes to use, period. Four hours isn't anywhere near enough time to master one IMO (at least it wasn't for me).


I could turn someone who has never used a plow (or rabbet plane) into a competent user of the respective tool if they spend just one hour (or even less) with me.

You might be able to do that with "someone", but I very much doubt you could do that with "anyone". There are all sorts of reasons why somebody might be slow to come up to speed on something like this.

[Stewie Simpson]

William; watch the following video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfc80MBHYag

[James Pallas]

William, sorry to see you struggle. I see and deduce from your description a couple of things. The knickers are if no use along the grain, they may interfere rather than help. If the skates are getting very hot than the plane is not adjusted properly. Just like a shoulder plane or rebbate plane the iron should protrude from the skate. If not all kinds of problems occur. Hard to push, etc. I have not used that plane, would love to, it is ambidextrous I understand. That being the case to deal with grain I would just set it up for opposite hand use. That cut you are attempting is difficult. Just try sawing a straight line with the saw that far away from your body. Persevere and you will succeed. I love my 45 and use it somewhere on nearly every project.
Jim

[William Fretwell]

I think what he's referring to is holding the fence with your thumb over the top, such that it rests against the workpiece and acts as a sort of "fence depth gauge". I do that with my fenced planes sometimes.

Yes Patrick that's exactly what I mean.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi William, I can relate to your frustration. I haven’t used that plane, but I recently attempted a dado with my Record 044 that was about 4” away from the edge. The Record has been flawless when close to the edge. Just a few inches away, total new learning curve. The first attempt wasn’t pretty. The second was better. Just took a lot more patience and concentration. In the future, I’ll probably just reverse the board and go against the grain.

As James said, keep at it. Good luck!

[William Fretwell]

William; watch the following video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfc80MBHYag

Thanks Stewie, the pine is easy to work with, the oak a bit harder. By the time he cuts the window sash I can empathise with the difficulty.
Rather subjectively the Stanley 45 appears to have more 'heft'. Mass in a plane is usually a good thing.
The lessons: light cut, maximal fence registration, balance, balance, balance.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The knickers are if no use along the grainWell, if your knickers are getting in the way of the cut, I can understand the trouble. Candle wax won’t solve that. I would recommend a good belt, or maybe some suspenders. Keep those things where they belong and you ought to do okay.

[Derek Cohen]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Patrick Chase http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2741025#post2741025)
I think what he's referring to is holding the fence with your thumb over the top, such that it rests against the workpiece and acts as a sort of "fence depth gauge". I do that with my fenced planes sometimes.






Yes Patrick that's exactly what I mean.

What for? If the thumb is pressing on the work piece, then the palm cannot exert sufficient pressure sideways against the work piece and balance the plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

I try to think of the fence as a guide similar to a baton. It helps me to get the cut started. Once you have that you aren't going to change much. Once you have the cut started along the whole board starting from the far end you can concentrate on keeping the plane level, just like a rabbet. I have never bothered to take the fence off with beads but I have removed a baton when doing dados and rabbets. I believe the plane would be self guiding once started.
Jim

[James Pallas]

Well, if your knickers are getting in the way of the cut, I can understand the trouble. Candle wax won’t solve that. I would recommend a good belt, or maybe some suspenders. Keep those things where they belong and you ought to do okay.
yes Nicholas I've have been known to get my "knickers" in a knot when the skates are out of alignment.:)
Jim

[Nicholas Lawrence]

yes Nicholas I've have been known to get my "knickers" in a knot when the skates are out of alignment.:)
Jim

Thought it might be time for a little humor James. Hate to see everyone all worked up. Life is too short.

My only substantive advice (not an expert, but have used my Sargent 1080 a fair amount for grooving and beading): a combination plane needs three things to work, (1) sharp cutters, (2) light cuts, (3) straight grain. Starting at the end of the cut and working back helps an awful lot too.

And at the end of the day, some boards just don’t want to be beaded.

[Simon MacGowen]

When reading a "remarkable" account, one must always consider the possibility that that account is itself unreliable for one reason or another. Perhaps the LV instructor had problems with the plane as described, or perhaps he expressed empathy with and validated William's obvious frustrations (this is "dealing with a frustrated customer 101" stuff) and William misunderstood that as an admission that the instructor himself had similar issues. Perhaps LV actually did have some sort of campaign to reach out to customers about "wracking" problems as William claimed in his previous thread (and they just happened to forget to call all of the rest of us here on SMC who have that plane), or perhaps he misunderstood in that instance as well. Etc etc.

Also there's only so much you can do to improve usability of a plane that has no mouth, no sole, a fence that sometimes needs to be positioned distant from the iron, etc. Combos are among the most difficult planes to use, period. Four hours isn't anywhere near enough time to master one IMO (at least it wasn't for me).

You might be able to do that with "someone", but I very much doubt you could do that with "anyone". There are all sorts of reasons why somebody might be slow to come up to speed on something like this.

Hi Patrick,

I think you missed my message. Mine wasn't about the plane, the "perhaps", any possible misunderstandings (between the tutor and William or between any two entities), or any of the etcs.

My focus was on why after four hours of tuition from a source that was supposed to be an authority on the subject, our reporter (William) who was not a newbie in using hand tools still has had some unsolved issues with his use of his plane.

"Four hours isn't anywhere near enough time to master one IMO (at least it wasn't for me)."

If someone bought the combo plane and received a four-hour one-to-one lesson from the combo plane manufacturer and came back to me that they could still not use the plane to make decent (NOT master-class) cuts with decent (NOT master-class) results, I would advise them to return the plane and get a refund. Then use part of the refund to get a Stanley 45 and struggle with it for a lot less money!, a path that Steve and others have recommended. The plane simply wasn't the right tool for them AND for a lot of people who are contemplating it.

We are talking about using the plane not mastering it. Someone may never master the use of a tool. Your statement about mastery is taking my message off its intended path.

Let's not forget the story that a little girl at one of the shows picked up the plane and used it without instructions! NO, she had not got any four hours of instructions from anyone on the new plane.


Any attempts -- intentional or unintentional; knowing or unknowing -- to brush off William's tutorial experience as insignificant instead of trying to help pinpoint what (the lesson, the tool, the set-up, etc.) has not gone right are a misguided effort. Such attempts are not helping Veritas at all; those of us watching are wondering if it is the plane or something else that makes the tool a difficult tool. If it were as difficult to learn and to use as a Stanley 45, what would be the point of spending money on the new plane?

I am not to argue with anyone who thinks I can't teach someone or anyone to use a plow plane competently within an hour. It is a matter of personal assessment, but I can say that if I could not use a woodworking tool (any tools, power or hand) to produce acceptable results after two -- not four -- hours of instructions in person, that tool, no matter who manufactures it, would never find a spot in my shop. Period.

Simon

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

That was very strange for me to read such negative view on this plane... I'm newbie myself but I did not dare to start my first cut using this plane with fully extended fence. And then even more strange to see tutor to do the same. Did you try to learn how to use this plane or did you want to teach tutor how not to use it? :)

First I tried it as a plow, making groove on an edge. Then I cut corresponding tong. And I like it more for this than small plow plane with wide blade conversion kit because of: fence position micro adjustment; and because it is bigger and both skates are bigger.

I also tried to make triple reed using one bead iron in three stages. Thanks to micro adjustment fence again, it was easy to catch the same spacing between beads. This is my learning board:

http://forum.woodtools.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9246.0;attach=5825 85;image (http://forum.woodtools.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9246.0;attach=5825 84;image)

(This is European steamed beech, in reality it is more red than yellow.)

I did notice that nickers and corresponding set screws have to be watched over. Either nicker can stick out and dig into the wood, or set screw on the other side will dig instead. Probably would remove them when not in use, as suggested by Dear Sirs above.

[Simon MacGowen]

That was very strange for me to read such negative view on this plane... I'm newbie myself but I did not dare to start my first cut using this plane with fully extended fence.

First I tried it as a plow, making groove on an edge. Then I cut corresponding tong. And I like it more for this than small plow plane with wide blade conversion kit because of: fence position micro adjustment; and because it is bigger and both skates are bigger.

I also tried to make triple reed using one bead iron in three stages. Thanks to micro adjustment fence again, it was easy to catch the same spacing between beads. This is my learning board:

http://forum.woodtools.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9246.0;attach=5825 85;image (http://forum.woodtools.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9246.0;attach=5825 84;image)

(This is European steamed beech, in reality it is more red than yellow.)

I did notice that nickers and corresponding set screws have to be watched over. Either nicker can stick out and dig into the wood, or set screw on the other side will dig instead. Probably would remove them when not in use, as suggested by Dear Sirs above.

Perhaps this is how the tuition should have been formatted and executed?

Suggested remedy to Veritas: Arrange a tutor, this time, to go to William's place and conduct another lesson in person, this time based on some tested/rehearsed methodology or practice runs beforehand. Key word: Preparation.

Simon

[John Gornall]

Not necessarily a lot of tool expertise at Lee Valley stores. Went in last week to look at shooting plane - none on display. Asked at counter and a guy went and got one - box had never been opened. Took it out and employees came running - they hadn't seen it before. Think most sales of tools are online.

[Simon MacGowen]

Not necessarily a lot of tool expertise at Lee Valley stores. Went in last week to look at shooting plane - none on display. Asked at counter and a guy went and got one - box had never been opened. Took it out and employees came running - they hadn't seen it before. Think most sales of tools are online.

No idea about their hand tool store vs online sales ratio. Lee Valley sells so many products that it should not be a surprise that not everyone working there knows about everything or every tool. But I would have no doubt that every one of their stores has people with tool expertise on their payroll. Many woodworking places I have visited over the years are staffed by people of varying knowledge and experience. I personally saw a router sales person showing to a potential customer what was a climb cut as the regular way of routing!

However, when the tutorial session was arranged for a particular customer, there was no excuse (save staff absence due to emergency) that the session had been conducted in a seemingly ill-prepared setting and manner.

Simon

[James Pallas]

William doesn't need all the blame stuff. He needs some help to get going. I don't have the plane. I do use a 45 regularly. I can do the cut he is showing with a 45. It has to be a have to for me to do it. I wish one of you that has the plane would try it to see, especially those with combo experience. Andrey looks as if he is getting it to work even tho he says he is a newbie. Maybe you can give it a try Andrey to give William a hand.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

William doesn't need all the blame stuff. He needs some help to get going. I don't have the plane. I do use a 45 regularly. I can do the cut he is showing with a 45. It has to be a have to for me to do it. I wish one of you that has the plane would try it to see, especially those with combo experience. Andrey looks as if he is getting it to work even tho he says he is a newbie. Maybe you can give it a try Andrey to give William a hand.
Jim

A bunch of us have already given William advice on how to fix his issues on both this thread and the other one. The issues he's described are part of the routine learning curve for this sort of plane IMO, and the advice given so far should ultimately (with practice) be enough to overcome them.

At this point IMO he needs to decide if he's willing to invest the time to learn such a complicated tool, and if so go off and practice, practice, and practice some more. There is no free lunch, and talk can only get you so far.

[Jim Koepke]

This seems like there wasn't a plan of action put in place before William showed up at the LV store.

If it were my job to set this up, a person would have taken the original sales order and duplicated the purchase. Then a person would have been set up to use and become familiar with that plane and the various components William ordered.

When he came into the store with his plane, it would have been set aside and all tutoring would have been done with the store plane. If that worked, there would be an exchange of old for new and the story would be done.

The blade needs to protrude a bit beyond the skates. This cuts the track slightly wider than the skates and prevents heating and binding. If the blade isn't cutting a hair outside of the skate, the skate will tend to push the whole plane to the side. If the opposite side is cutting properly this can make the plane seem to wander toward the side that is cutting and it will spoil the bead or slot being made.

A problem with one of my Stanley #45s is a slightly bowed skate. This does cause binding in a cut and heating of the skate from friction.

Light cuts are key to working in tough grain. If all is going well, then the depth of cut can be increased. If one must go against the grain, it might be better to set the plane up for left hand use:

370845

The fence needs to 'drop' along with the depth of the cut or the plane will not stay level in the cut.

Any pressure on the plane in front of the blade can cause the blade to dig in to the top of a bead being cut.

If the skates are just a hair out of true parallel to each other it can cause drifting and binding.

If a cam rest is used it needs to be able to adjust between each cut or it will not keep the plane level. If one makes their own, it needs to be adjustable. The only exception to this is if one is keeping the plane at the same level and adjusting the blade between cuts. This is not a standard method of using a combination plane but is alluded to in the Stanley #55 instructions when guiding on a corner with both fences. The cam rest isn't used in the described procedure.

There is a neat trick to help keep the plane square to the work. My recollection is this was something posted on Youtube by a person who went by the name of Alf. It uses a dowel with something on top to keep from poking the user in the eye:

370846

There are likely many more little tips that make a big difference not listed above. I am kind of worn out after driving a U-Haul truck from California. 15 hours on the I-5. The best part was a burger in Dunsmire, CA at a place called YAKS. (Yes Another Koffee Shop) It is the only Koffee Shop to my knowledge with 20 craft beers on tap.

http://www.yaks.com/

It was a darned good burger.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

This seems like there wasn't a plan of action put in place before William showed up at the LV store.

If it were my job to set this up, a person would have taken the original sales order and duplicated the purchase. Then a person would have been set up to use and become familiar with that plane and the various components William ordered.

When he came into the store with his plane, it would have been set aside and all tutoring would have been done with the store plane. If that worked, there would be an exchange of old for new and the story would be done.

The blade needs to protrude a bit beyond the skates. This cuts the track slightly wider than the skates and prevents heating and binding. If the blade isn't cutting a hair outside of the skate, the skate will tend to push the whole plane to the side. If the opposite side is cutting properly this can make the plane seem to wander toward the side that is cutting and it will spoil the bead or slot being made.

A problem with one of my Stanley #45s is a slightly bowed skate. This does cause binding in a cut and heating of the skate from friction.

Light cuts are key to working in tough grain. If all is going well, then the depth of cut can be increased. If one must go against the grain, it might be better to set the plane up for left hand use:

370845

The fence needs to 'drop' along with the depth of the cut or the plane will not stay level in the cut.

Any pressure on the plane in front of the blade can cause the blade to dig in to the top of a bead being cut.

If the skates are just a hair out of true parallel to each other it can cause drifting and binding.

If a cam rest is used it needs to be able to adjust between each cut or it will not keep the plane level. If one makes their own, it needs to be adjustable. The only exception to this is if one is keeping the plane at the same level and adjusting the blade between cuts. This is not a standard method of using a combination plane but is alluded to in the Stanley #55 instructions when guiding on a corner with both fences. The cam rest isn't used in the described procedure.

There is a neat trick to help keep the plane square to the work. My recollection is this was something posted on Youtube by a person who went by the name of Alf. It uses a dowel with something on top to keep from poking the user in the eye:

370846

There are likely many more little tips that make a big difference not listed above. I am kind of worn out after driving a U-Haul truck from California. 15 hours on the I-5. The best part was a burger in Dunsmire, CA at a place called YAKS. (Yes Another Koffee Shop) It is the only Koffee Shop to my knowledge with 20 craft beers on tap.

http://www.yaks.com/

It was a darned good burger.

jtk

Finally, someone who does not talk like a self-appointed sales rep.! And I am 101% sure a training along the above line -- properly prepared ahead -- doesn't need four hours to go through -- even for a newbie.

Simon

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

William doesn't need all the blame stuff. He needs some help to get going. I don't have the plane. I do use a 45 regularly. I can do the cut he is showing with a 45. It has to be a have to for me to do it. I wish one of you that has the plane would try it to see, especially those with combo experience. Andrey looks as if he is getting it to work even tho he says he is a newbie. Maybe you can give it a try Andrey to give William a hand.
Jim
Yes, sure. Things that helped me to get started with combo plane listed below. Plus I started simple, which I already stressed... too much? Only because nobody else did enough :)

* There was a video of The English Woodworker about fenced plane (on example of moving fillister plane, aka Veritas Skew Rabbet Plane) - http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/how-to-use-a-fillister-plane.
* Reading manual a few times while commuting and thus away from workshop.
* Planing 8 grooves and tongs, and 5 rabbets using Veritas Small Plow Plane and Skew Rabbet Plane.
* Taking course on sharpening carving gauges helped to hone beading blade (it came with a wire along cutting edge, aka burr).

My first grooves were not perfect at first. Beading came alright first time (3/16 beading blade). I used beech wood. With Skew Rabbet Plane I have more difficulty than with Combo and Plow still...

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Stewie, the pine is easy to work with, the oak a bit harder. By the time he cuts the window sash I can empathise with the difficulty.
Rather subjectively the Stanley 45 appears to have more 'heft'. Mass in a plane is usually a good thing.
The lessons: light cut, maximal fence registration, balance, balance, balance.

Hi William; its possible you may have missed the point on why I posted that video. Can I suggest you view that video again with the sound turned on, and note from 1min18sec that in this alternate approach the planes sliding fence was not used to guide the cut of the face bead.

regards Stewie;

[Hasin Haroon]

Simon, if Veritas agrees to send a tutor to William's place, good for them, but that is going well beyond what I think can be expected of a tool manufacturer. I don't think they owe him more than they already did (albeit the tutor did not seem to be an expert himself), especially considering there are a lot of us who purchased and used this plane, and found it to perform well enough to justify it's price. Tool manufacturers can't be expected to tutor every customer on technique. From William's comments on (being unable to) balancing the fence, it is quite clear the main issue is one of technique rather than plane performance. At most maybe the training at the store could be rearranged to have someone familiar with the tool teach him how to use it.

[William Fretwell]

Thought it might be time for a little humor James. Hate to see everyone all worked up. Life is too short.

My only substantive advice (not an expert, but have used my Sargent 1080 a fair amount for grooving and beading): a combination plane needs three things to work, (1) sharp cutters, (2) light cuts, (3) straight grain. Starting at the end of the cut and working back helps an awful lot too.

And at the end of the day, some boards just don’t want to be beaded.

Thanks Nicholas, yes I'm learning!

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon, if Veritas agrees to send a tutor to William's place, good for them, but that is going well beyond what I think can be expected of a tool manufacturer. I don't think they owe him more than they already did (albeit the tutor did not seem to be an expert himself), especially considering there are a lot of us who purchased and used this plane, and found it to perform well enough to justify it's price. Tool manufacturers can't be expected to tutor every customer on technique. From William's comments on (being unable to) balancing the fence, it is quite clear the main issue is one of technique rather than plane performance. At most maybe the training at the store could be rearranged to have someone familiar with the tool teach him how to use it.

You are right that no manufacturers, Veritas in this case, owe any customers the obligation of providing a hands-on lesson when a tool is purchased, unless the training is included as part of the sales.People pay to attend the Festool training, even though the tools are priced on the high end.

BUT. if a vendor agreed to provide a tutorial -- out of good will or any reason -- and screwed it up, the expectation and the story would be different.

The point here wasn't about the plane or William's ability to balance or not, but WHY a great plane, in William's hands, could not perform even after four hours of ONE-TO-ONE training. Some seemed to point the finger at the trainee as the source of the problem, but as someone who once had been a panel advisor in corporate training, I could tell you that 99% of failure in training was (budget aside) the fault of the program developer and deliver-er; not the trainees or students.

My suggestion was that since the first session of four hours of training was ineffective, as a gesture of (further?) goodwill, William should not be asked to make another trip to the store.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

Finally, someone who does not talk like a self-appointed sales rep.! And I am 101% sure a training along the above line -- properly prepared ahead -- doesn't need four hours to go through -- even for a newbie.

Simon

OK, we've already established that William needs to make the following technical adjustments to mitigate just the issues he has described (and bear in mind that there are usually more layers to the onion):


Focus on shifting pressure from toe to heel through the cut to prevent "diving" as the toe goes off the edge of the workpiece. Note that with a combo you only have one hand on the main skate, so this isn't a simple matter of shifting pressure from one hand to the other as on a bench plane.
Focus on applying only forward pressure from the tote and only sideways pressure from the fence, to avoid twisting
Focus on keeping the fence at a constant height during each cut (though different from cut to cut obviously) to avoid rolling.

Note that these are not setup issues that can be addressed piecemeal - these are technical elements that have to be executed correctly *at the same time*. If you've ever actually tried to teach somebody these sorts of skills (as opposed to theorizing about it) then you would know that most humans are unable to pay attention to more than one such element at a time, and I know quite a few who can't even manage that. The others have to come from trained muscle memory, and you don't acquire that in "an hour" or even four.

I'm sure you could teach somebody to do something in an hour, but only a physical prodigy (the sort of person who annoyingly excels at every sport they try) could pick up everything that William needs that quickly. It doesn't help anybody else to create ridiculous expectations like that.

This is what I was driving at in the other thread when I said that bringing a combo plane to market carries a degree of inherent reputational risk for any maker. If I were LV I wouldn't have said anything about any "nine-year-old girl" in the newsletter (http://www.leevalley.com/us/newsletters/Woodworking/2559/Article1.htm), though. It's worded in a way that seems to play off of a problematic gender stereotype around tool aptitude (how about "nine-year-old child" instead, Rob?), and I also think that it creates an unrealistic expectation for ease of use.

[Stewie Simpson]

Can I suggest the manufacture could have made that learning curb a little easier by not designing a hand plane with so many adjustment points. 17 in total.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/Woodworking/planes/05P5901s11.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/05P5901s13.jpg

[steven c newman]

Mine isn't much better..
370898
Tends to fill up with these things, too...
370899

[Simon MacGowen]

Can I suggest the manufacture could have made that learning curb a little easier by not designing a hand plane with so many adjustment points. 17 in total.

I am very familiar with (and am very competent in) in the Veritas plow and rabbet planes. I have had no issues with their adjustments (you may take more time to switch between the groove and tongue functions, if you don't use them often).

I have not had a chance to use the new Combo Plane, but I do not see the large no. of adjustments as a source of issues in using the plane. Each adjustment is done before the plane is put to use, and each adjustment has its designated purpose. Once the adjustments are set in enough no. of times, they won't be confusing or hard to remember. As far as I see it, the adjustmens are a non-issue.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

I am very familiar with (and am very competent in) in the Veritas plow and rabbet planes. I have had no issues with their adjustments (you may take more time to switch between the groove and tongue functions, if you don't use them often).

I have not had a chance to use the new Combo Plane, but I do not see the large no. of adjustments as a source of issues in using the plane. Each adjustment is done before the plane is put to use, and each adjustment has its designated purpose. Once the adjustments are set in enough no. of times, they won't be confusing or hard to remember. As far as I see it, the adjustmens are a non-issue.

Simon

Hey. we agree!

Seriously, I have the plane and I don't find the number of adjustments to be an issue. They're all very straightforward, and on balance easier to set up than a 45 IMO.

With that said, all combo planes are a good deal more complicated to set up than a typical bench plane. It goes with the territory as they say.

[Lorenzo Geib]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is wood selection and orientation. With ANY open mouthed plane selecting straight grain wood and orienting your cuts so you aren't cutting against rising grain is a key to success. Sometimes your whole project should be planned so you don't have to make those tough cuts.

If you are using a regular plane and experience tear out, you turn the wood around or find another piece. Why would you expect that a plane that has no sole and no chip breaker would perform better?

Find a nice compliant piece of wood to learn on. Then try making cuts no more than and inch or less from the fence to start. Later, you can try cuts on the far side of a board and against the grain.

[Frederick Skelly]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is wood selection and orientation. With ANY open mouthed plane selecting straight grain wood and orienting your cuts so you aren't cutting against rising grain is a key to success. Sometimes your whole project should be planned so you don't have to make those tough cuts.

If you are using a regular plane and experience tear out, you turn the wood around or find another piece. Why would you expect that a plane that has no sole and no chip breaker would perform better?

Find a nice compliant piece of wood to learn on. Then try making cuts no more than and inch or less from the fence to start. Later, you can try cuts on the far side of a board and against the grain.

Good thoughts.

Welcome to the Creek Lorenzo! Glad to have you with us. It sounds like you are very experienced - hope to see more of your thoughts in future posts!
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is wood selection and orientation. With ANY open mouthed plane selecting straight grain wood and orienting your cuts so you aren't cutting against rising grain is a key to success. Sometimes your whole project should be planned so you don't have to make those tough cuts.

Totally right. A few did mention about grain directions in the thread.

However, the difference between an average woodworker and a skilled woodworker sometimes lies in how they deal with an adversary condition or a less than ideal situation, in this case reversing grain.

If I had to choose a board between best appearance and grain direction, I would follow the advice of many great furniture makers before me and go with aesthetics. There is an array of solutions to deal with reversing grains, including using a router bit, worse comes to worse and why make an unnecessary sacrifice.

It is not the subject of this thread but reversing grains are not the end of the world and can be handled with various techniques including the use of back bevel. If I ever own one of the new Combo Plane, I do not expect reversing grains to be a hurdle for me at all (I don't have both right and left hand plows or rabbet planes and grain directions don't bother me or my work).

Simon

[Mike Brady]

No one has mentioned that these planes are limited to use on flat boards. A scratch stock or a beading tool, in the case of the discussion above, could handle both the grain problem and add the benefit of adding the desired profiles to a curved edge. You don't have to go to school to use one and a person can make his own if desired.

[Patrick Chase]

No one has mentioned that these planes are limited to use on flat boards. A scratch stock or a beading tool, in the case of the discussion above, could handle both the grain problem and add the benefit of adding the desired profiles to a curved edge. You don't have to go to school to use one and a person can make his own if desired.

Indeed. The only concern with scratch stocks is that they're (a lot) more work and they don't leave as clean a surface when the grain is cooperative. Simon's suggestion of back beveling (also previously made by Derek as well) is a nice intermediate solution, that works most of the time IMO.

[John Gornall]

From the OP " The skates are so hot the molten wax"

Makes me wonder if there's a white knuckle problem here - I often have to get people to lighten up when teaching - they just want to hold so tight and push so hard

There needs to be a little finesse in using these planes

In the leveling matter a video of plowing a groove - notice the dowel in the fence block to indicate the plane is tilting or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK284m0wJME

A video on plowing a bead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLKZ1RV6uUo

[William Fretwell]

From the OP " The skates are so hot the molten wax"

Makes me wonder if there's a white knuckle problem here - I often have to get people to lighten up when teaching - they just want to hold so tight and push so hard

There needs to be a little finesse in using these planes

In the leveling matter a video of plowing a groove - notice the dowel in the fence block to indicate the plane is tilting or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK284m0wJME

A video on plowing a bead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLKZ1RV6uUo

Wax restored the finesse! The primary lesson from the videos: after starting, ditch the fence. Before the wax the friction on the skates was huge. Both videos use non challenging woods also. I am leaning towards thinking more mass would help also.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi William

This is all part of an education for all, so firstly my thanks for posting your experience here.

The message to take away is that planing beads is a mix of experience and set up. The experience is how to hold and push the plane, where to place the pressure on the fence, how to adjust downforce for different sections of the board, how much blade extension is needed, how light a cut to make, reading the grain and choosing wood, and setting up the plane for optimal work.

One of the problems in passing this on is that some of this becomes intuitive after a while, and one forgets the small details. Threads like this are helpful in reminding one to concentrate again on the important bits. One of my problems is that I post advice in the few free minutes between my appointments, to clear my head, and some of this is rushed and may come across as impatient. My apology to all if this is so.

Learning to plane beads with a plough plane is actually one of the more difficult tasks. It is far easier to learn to plough a groove, and that is what I suggest that all should master first before moving on. Also, it is important to use the fence, since the most common ploughing you will do is a groove for a drawer side or front, which is near the edge of the board. If you hold the fence as I recommended earlier (pushing it against the side of the work piece or bench), you will find it quite easy to balance and control. Wax the wooden sub-fence and skate, and it will run smoothly.

There is an article (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallPlowasaBeadingPlane.html)on my website about ploughing beads with the Small Plow, which was made after that accessory became available. The aspect I wish to point out is that a 15 degree backbevel on the lands really helps to reduce, even prevent, any tearout.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallPlowasaBeadingPlane_html_m6679c690.jpg

I always take the lightest of cuts until the groove is established. A light grip and push forward from low down on the handle. More pressure sideways on the fence - essentially the same applies if you are running the plane against a straight edge (such as in the video Stewie linked to), which is needed when planing a dado: I want to push the body of the plane against the straight edge, and then I will try and do this simultaneously from the back and the side.

Always start your planing at the end of the board and work your way back. If the wood is more interlocked/has more reversing grain, then make the planing-from-the-end in short sections - the aim is to be planing downhill as much as you can. In other words, you are creating your own grain direction.

Post more of your progress here. Your experience is helpful for all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

(I don't have both right and left hand plows or rabbet planes and grain directions don't bother me or my work).

Though they are not made as left handed planes my Record #778 rabbet plane can be used left handed as can my Stanley #45. From what is shown in images of the Veritas Combination Plane it should also be able to be set up to work as a left handed plane.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Though they are not made as left handed planes my Record #778 rabbet plane can be used left handed as can my Stanley #45. From what is shown in images of the Veritas Combination Plane it should also be able to be set up to work as a left handed plane.

jtk

That's correct, the LV Combo can be used with the fence on either side. As with the 45 there are limitations when using irons narrower than 1/4", though, as in that case you only have a nicker and depths stop on the right side.

[William Fretwell]

Thanks Derek for your input. Yes the plane is very different. Standard planes you worry about sharpness, depth of cut & grain direction but not balance. I have not tried a back bevel on the lands but tear out was not much of an issue.
The type of wood also has a much bigger influence on the outcome. I am used to planing some difficult woods, but that is with a chip breaker. Bevel up planes give you some education on how beneficial a chip breaker is.
Will continue to practice my balance.

[Rob Lee]

Hi,

Posting in threads like this is a bit awkward for me....where customers and staff are involved.

Let me firstly acknowledge that Mr Fretwell’s experience with the plane to date has not been what we would have wanted, despite efforts on both sides to correct it. As this plane is very new, there just aren’t a lot of people out there with a lot of experience using it in the stores. We do have training programs for all staff to support technical product, though with 20 retail locations, it does take a bit of time to deploy. We also support training with video, teleconferencing, and shared knowledge though internal web based resources.

I can’t fault our store staff for the efforts they’ve gone to, to help solve the customer’s concerns. Likewise, Mr Fretwell should have had a better learning experience.

We learn by doing things, making best efforts, and learning from the results. Clearly, there are still learnings to come from this.

There has been a lot of good advice given to Mr Fretwell in this thread, and we have several senior people following the discussion, and addressing any training/support issues identified.

Rob Lee

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi,

Posting in threads like this is a bit awkward for me....where customers and staff are involved.

Let me firstly acknowledge that Mr Fretwell’s experience with the plane to date has not been what we would have wanted, despite efforts on both sides to correct it. As this plane is very new, there just aren’t a lot of people out there with a lot of experience using it in the stores. We do have training programs for all staff to support technical product, though with 20 retail locations, it does take a bit of time to deploy. We also support training with video, teleconferencing, and shared knowledge though internal web based resources.

I can’t fault our store staff for the efforts they’ve gone to, to help solve the customer’s concerns. Likewise, Mr Fretwell should have had a better learning experience.

We learn by doing things, making best efforts, and learning from the results. Clearly, there are still learnings to come from this.

There has been a lot of good advice given to Mr Fretwell in this thread, and we have several senior people following the discussion, and addressing any training/support issues identified.

Rob Lee

Thank you for speaking up here Rob. In some ways, it would have been easier for you to stay quiet on this one. But as usual, you've done what's right. Your personal attention to your customers' experience is one of many reasons LV has such a loyal following. I have a shop full of your handtools.

Fred

[David Bassett]

There's a lot of angst & frustration in this thread. I hope all the good information is preserved and helpful without leaving hurt feelings and tarnished reputations. Certainly, it's a little difficult for me to isolate the bits I know I'm sure to need as I try to learn to use a combo plane from the other parts.

One recurring theme that doesn't agree with my reading of the situation is the scenario with an unprepared, even incompetent, Veritas tutor. I read the original description as Bill, the helpful friendly guy down at the local shop, was going out of his way to help. That doesn't read as expert combo plane user and instructor to me. It seems like someone who deserves credit for the try, but probably was in over their head in this specific case. Given the wonderful products & service I've received from LV, I'm offended they might have their reputation tarnished by a hypothetical situation. (I see Rob's checked in and I expect they'll again go above & beyond.)


... If I were LV I wouldn't have said anything about any "nine-year-old girl" in the newsletter (http://www.leevalley.com/us/newsletters/Woodworking/2559/Article1.htm), though. It's worded in a way that seems to play off of a problematic gender stereotype around tool aptitude (how about "nine-year-old child" instead, Rob?), and I also think that it creates an unrealistic expectation for ease of use.

(Ignoring possible issues with stereotypes...) I think this is one of those activities a complete novice may find easier to pick up. Usually we come at a new task / skill with a lot of baggage, both mental and as part of our muscle memory, and the first part of our learning process is unlearning bad habits. Well, not necessarily bad, just unhelpful to the new situation. A true and complete beginner who can relax and just do what the tools needs is always going to pickup the technique more quickly than I will. I think, if we're honest, most of us suffer that, each in our own way.

[Don Dorn]

It's a fairly simple matter of technique. Ask Jim, or Steven, or anybody else here who has a combo plane and they'll happily explain what you'll need to practice to be able to handle the balance issue. It's been described in several other threads for that matter.

Everything worth learning looks hard when you're starting from zero.

I agree completely. A friend tried to teach me to run a Record 778 rabbet plane of which he was a master and I was horrible. After a good bit of practice, I developed the balance and technique you speak of and now run it as well as he does. Same occurred with a Record 50 with a beading blade. If it were easy, everyone could do it - it's worth working for as it brings a great deal of pleasure and sense of accomplishment.