so what were YOU doing at quarter to 1am last night?

[Kev Williams]

right now I'm engraving blue anodized shot glasses in the LS900,

the fiber is in the middle of 230 black anodized operator plate job, they're for some ethernet switching gizmo,

the IS400 just got done engraving words and cutting holes in an ABS electric box lid that'll end up in a mining truck, the wife will paint the engraving tomorrow,

the GCC is engraving a bunch of 8x12 signs for a nearby medical company,

the old XT#1 just finished a batch of Allen Bradley 559 plates, I'll take them upstairs for the wife to paint too,

the old XT#2 I just got set up to engrave 30 clear plex torque scale indicators, they also need paint and assy which the BIL will do tomorrow,

and a few minutes ago I slathered Cermark over a table full of SS plates that'll go in the 900 as soon as the shot glasses are done...

--- I'll bet most of YOU guys were asleep! :D

Well, maybe not Tim... ;)

(it's nice to be busy, but this has been my SOP for going on 4 years straight, and I'm about tired of these late nights!)

[John Kleiber]

In answer to your question, I was sleeping.
But when I do have to stay up late to meet a deadline, its a great feeling to have multiple machines running.
-John

[Bert Kemp]

I was watching Sahara:D

[Rodne Gold]

Listening to muzak in my dedicated room... (see pic) ... you need some helpers Kev...no use working yourself to death and no time to enjoy the fruits

https://scontent.fcpt6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19905408_10154928672757869_2291541897565448830_n.j pg?oh=0e25b7d8017253129e086265f7598499&oe=5AACCEDF

[Dave Sheldrake]

Working like I am now (it's 04:37 here) not many days I do less than 16 hours and haven't had a day off since I can remember :(

[Kev Williams]

Listening to muzak in my dedicated room... (see pic) ..

Now that there is one very carefully 'acoustically arranged' dedicated muzak room :D

-boy, do I miss those days, I'm jealous... I have a whole bunch of perfectly good music gear just sitting in a storage unit- a first-year Carver C2000 S.H.A.P., a pair of Carver 500w cubes, pair of Dahlquist DQ-10's, pair of 15" Realistic Mach II's, pair of 16" Pioneer CS-G's, a pair of home-made loudspeakers I used for the time-delay, a Pioneer 160 wpc tuner to drive the time delay speakers, a nice Dual turntable (forget the model), a couple of boxes of 1980's vinyl, a 100 disc CD player that's still full, a Harman Kardon cassette deck (pretty decent for 1981), probably a few more trinkets I'm forgetting... My wife suffers from chronic migraines.... Someday I may get a man cave to put it all in again. Just hope it happens before 'it's too loud' ;)

[Bill Stearns]

Hey All -
So, you find yourself working, what you feel are, too many hours, uh? There’s an old AA saying: “If nothing changes ... nothing changes!” Would seem, at first glance, the hours we put in are directly related to our revenue needs ... simple ‘nough, uh?


It’s taken me years, but I’m finally realizing: more important than the hours I work,'n the income I make, is whether, or not, I have “balance” in my life? - became pretty darned clear that I didn’t! (“Balance” meaning: time ‘nough for family, friends, outside activities, other interests; time for “self”, etc.)


I’ve come to see that putting in too many hours, on a regular basis, can be a cry for "change" of some sort! Think it’s key to, first, accurately evaluate our revenue/livelihood needs - in dollars ‘n cents. Then, with this sum in mind, to evaluate precisely ‘why’ we’re putting in the hours we do? Truly necessary? The reasons, of course, run the gamut! A need for higher income is certainly right up there. Retaining our competitive position in our marketplaces? Maybe, our inability to turn ‘way business? (as in my case.) Imagine you’ve got your own list, uh?
Anyway, over these months, I’ve isolated those customers whose business (always) results in my working overly long hours. (Most always due to their short sightedness; vis-a-vis unrealistic deadlines.) So, now, with both my income ‘n “balance needs” in mind, I’ve finally gotten up enough courage to start turning ‘way certain projects, here ‘n there. I’m, more or less, handling jobs during sensible workin’ hours; and allowing time ‘nough for “other things”. And, know what? Business has remained brisk - ‘n best of all, I’m feeling happier ‘n more relaxed than before! Long story short! ... IMO, “balance” counts! BILL

[Dave Sheldrake]

Very true Bill, my problem is I have staff relying on what I do so they can do what they do. The money doesn't matter to me these days but I have always been the same, I won't ask any of my staff to do something I won't personally do myself.

[Jacob John]

I have to ask. Do most of you make enough to hire full time staff? Seems like you reach a point where you hope to hire people to do the work while you manage. Do you prefer the hands-on approach, not trust anyone but you to engrave, etc.?

[Kev Williams]

I have the opposite problem Dave has. My "staff" is my 6-hour-a-day BIL, and my poor wife who knows nothing about this business (but she's learning!) - BIL's work generates about 1/10 total sales, most weeks he's paid more than he earns, but he also does a lot of 'priceless' work- cutting, beveling, taping, gluing, paint fill, Cermark washing, packing, gopher duty- that I couldn't do without. My wife is a part of this business by default, but she's a trooper, she's my main paint filler, helps with shipping stuff, pack & unpacking jobs, pins badges, tapes plates, and does some of the invoicing (I do most invoicing because most of my work is one-off, so pricing is 'on the fly'). BIL has been here almost 35 years, but he's never had the self-confidence to 'spread his wings' much- of the 15 machines here, he knows how to run 3 of 'em- the LS900, the GCC and the C2000. There's many jobs he and my wife can run once I set the machines up, and I've had a few of my kids help out at times. But- answering the phone, the door, buying materials, quoting prices, reading and answering email, scanning graphics, vectorizing, setting up jobs, most of the invoicing, paying the bills, accounts payable, accounts receivable, doing the taxes, keeping track of the 15-30+ jobs in house at any given time, fixing and maintaining the machines, and keeping as many machines busy as possible - that's MY job :) --guess I'm pretty good at it by now ;)

[Mike Null]

At the moment, actually for a couple of years, I have been too busy. I have two part-timers but neither can run the equipment. they do shipping, painting Cermark, washing, assembling, lifting etc. I have to do all the artwork, set up the machines and inspect. No compromises on quality. I handle all billing and communication. I regularly turn away business to try to maintain some semblance of good service to my regulars.

I'd love to take a few days off and relax but that won't happen until Christmas. I do shut it down then.

[Bill Stearns]

HEY 'gain:
It’s obvious that, when it comes to our hours spent working, everybody’s situation is ‘little different. (BTW: I’m a one-man show; just so you know.)


In finding myself regularly putting in way too many hours, I finally realized it was time I reassess my original “goals & objectives” - sadly realizing that, far as objectives go, while I love my business, my genuine “enjoyment of life” had slipped thru the cracks! In short: I came to see that I’d never hit a target I wasn’t aiming at!
Hours invested? employing help, or not? - a drive for higher sales? - the thing to consider may be: Are we running our business ‘way we do, ‘cause it’s simply the way we always have? (I was.) - got to a point where I had to ask myself: was I running my business, or was my business running me!? I’ve personally come to understand: Goals, and ways in which to run a business, change with time ‘n age; that higher income doesn’t necessarily translate into a happier, more content, life! - ‘bout all I’m trying to say!


KEV - Now, as for your operation? Certainly good that you can see that BIL’s contribution (to your overall earnings) is “priceless”. (It’s okay that not everyone has, or cares to have, lots of drive ‘n ambition.) Guess I’m thinkin’ of the tremendous weight he must’ve taken off your shoulders in all that he’s done for 35 years! (Your time translating into money, right?) As for your single-handedly doing all that you're doing, well, maybe, just keep in mind what I said earlier 'bout "balance". Running 15 machines! - Wow! - sure wouldn't want' a wake up to that task each morning! My best to you! BILL

[Jacob John]

You do have a lot of machines Kev! My wife is a one woman show. I help where I can out with mailers and marketing, but she's the only one creating and producing. I hope to one day hire someone to produce while she creates the artwork and markets. That's why I asked about trusting others. Do most of you prefer to make everything yourself? To me that's the fun in owning your own business, but then how does your business grow? It's a complicated balancing act for sure! :)

[Scott Shepherd]

I think the problem as been around for a long time. It's "How do you get someone to care about your business as much as you do?", and I think the answer is "You don't". Our lenses last 5 years or more. Got a couple lens going on 10 years now. Still spotless. Not just me saying spotless, but spotless under magnification. I've been in a fair amount of people's shops over the years that have lasers and they'll call me when they are having issues and I'll go there. I'll say "Looks like a lens issue" and I'm told "The lens is clean, we just cleaned it". I get them to take it out and it looks like they have been cleaning it with scotchbrite or it's pitted so badly that you can't see a clear spot on it. They tell me that they clean it all the time. I don't doubt that, but use your head and pay attention to the details.

It's hard for someone to remember to take the nose cone off when they don't have to pay for a $150 lens if they forget.

It's possible to find the needle in the hackstacks out there, but it's a challenge. Over all these years, we've found one needle in the haystack and that person still works here today.

[Matt McCoy]

"How do you get someone to care about your business as much as you do? -- You don't."

I agree with this. One of the most challenging parts of a small business, looking to take it to the next level, is creating a structure where you can remove yourself for a few days, and the work will continue without much oversight. This can be a difficult impediment to overcome and requires good employees, training, structure, well-crafted written SOPs, and trust. It's heavy and expensive on the front end, but necessary if you want a work/life balance, in my opinion.

The bonus advantage is having a turnkey business, with value beyond the sum of its parts, that can be sold down the road.

[Kev Williams]

Nothing I would love more, would be to turn this dungeon over to the hired help so I could relax and let them make me money...

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http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/bigrotf.gif

A customer/friend of mine has owned a very successful molding shop here in town for near as long as I've been engraving. About 4 years ago he introduced me to who he was leaving in charge, as he was handing over the reins so he could relax and and enjoy some free time...

That didn't last long. Everyone wanted to be the boss, but nobody wanted any responsibility. That was more stress than just going to work every day...

[Scott Shepherd]

The bonus advantage is having a turnkey business, with value beyond the sum of its parts, that can be sold down the road.

I was at bar with some friends in business, two sisters that have a business that they have owned for 30 years, and a guy who was a business advisor. He asked them "So what's the plan when you retire, what will you do with the business" and they said "Lock the doors, walk away, and enjoy life". He was stunned. He explained that their business had great value, and that they had spent 30 years building this business and couldn't understand how they'd just close it and lose revenue. He worked with them to setup the business so that it was attractive to a buyer, so when they walked out, they could lock the door, but they'd have a big fat check in their hands too. They haven't retired yet, but they are close. Great point, I thought.

[Matt McCoy]

I was at bar with some friends in business, two sisters that have a business that they have owned for 30 years, and a guy who was a business advisor. He asked them "So what's the plan when you retire, what will you do with the business" and they said "Lock the doors, walk away, and enjoy life". He was stunned. He explained that their business had great value, and that they had spent 30 years building this business and couldn't understand how they'd just close it and lose revenue. He worked with them to setup the business so that it was attractive to a buyer, so when they walked out, they could lock the door, but they'd have a big fat check in their hands too. They haven't retired yet, but they are close. Great point, I thought.

I think so too.

[Tim Bateson]

Let's see, the night/morning of the 26th... I stayed up and finished running a government job. At $500/hr, it was worth losing a bit of sleep. I'm happy with the paycheck, the customer is happy for the overnight turn-around.

[Bill Stearns]

Morning All,
Maybe, ‘time for ‘fresh “thread” on the subject, uh?
I found it intriguing, someone touching on the topic of “retirement planning”, and the “value” of our businesses. If, when the times comes, we were to attempt to “sell” v.s. just “locking up ‘n walking ‘way”?
I’d think it all kinda depends upon what’s actually “salable”? (As for that “business adviser's” comments to those ladies, guess I don’t see where someone’s years spent running their business would matter to a buyer; ‘least not in dollars ‘n cents?)


Bypassing the building/property itself, there’d mostly be your equipment ‘n useable inventory; right? I briefly Googled the subject of selling; seems a business’ annual & anticipated revenue plays some role in establishing “value” (But, I’m thinkin’ that, for an engraving business, for a buyer, what’ a crap-shoot that would be?) A well-established “business name” might be worth somethin’ - still, for a buyer, this could be a two-edged sword! - depending upon the community’s perception of the business’ reputation. Providing a list of your most prominent customers (intellectual property?) might have value; wouldn’t it? - so that a new owner wouldn’t have to start from scratch.
But, other that that ... what’s to be sold? Guess I’m thinkin’, it’s mostly “you” and “me” who represent “value” to our businesses: our extensive knowledge, learned skills, our experiences, our contacts? Don’t really see how a a seller’d able to assign a dollar/selling “value” to these points? Anyway, just rambling thoughts! - As a 1-man operation, operating out’ a my home’s main floor, ‘n ‘bout to turn 70 - selling off whatever equipment I have, ‘n inventory, is ‘bout as far as I can envision - some day! And, that, of course, sure wouldn’t pay for “retirement”! BILL

[Scott Shepherd]

If you have customers, repeat customers, and a proven history of generating $500,000 in sales each year (picked a random insignificant number out of the air), then your business certainly has value to someone, especially if your profit on that is $125,000 a year, after paying for everything, including wages. It takes a lot of hard work and time to build a business to have long term, profitable customers. That's worth a lot of money to someone looking to start a business.

[Kev Williams]

Because of my -- abilities?- My business totally useless to anyone else. Not to sound like a blowhard, but there MAY be 2 or 3 people in this country who could single-handedly produce what I do, with these machines, and service all my customers. My BIL, as long as he's been here, his abilities only allow him to service maybe 8-10% of my customer base, which is pretty much his job at the moment. Hiring people isn't an option, because while I make a good living at this, all wages paid to anyone else would come directly from my pocket, and then no one makes a good living. Tim can back me up on this one ;) -the only way someone else could make this biz work is to tell 70% of the current customer base 'sorry, beyond my capabilities' and try to build a whole new customer base dependent on his actual capabilities. And then there's the fact that the combined ages of all my 15 machines is very close to 300 years. My newest CNC rotary machine is over 10 years old...

So what's going to happen is, exactly one year from now, many of my customers are going to get some bad news, because 1.5 years from now I turn 65- at which time I'll be taking my SS... I'll be out of debt except for this house, which I'm going to reverse mortgage. I'll be keeping 5 or 6 quick/good money customers, which will keep me busy 15-20 hours a week. My BIL is welcome to use these machines to service any and all other customers, and deal with all the income and expenses that comes with. Getting a check for selling this biz has never been in the cards.

But I'm not complaining :D

[Scott Shepherd]

In all fairness, Kev, you are in that position because you put yourself in that position. I suspect when you leave, your customers won't go out of business because no one else on the planet can do what you do for them, they'll source out new vendors, and probably have to pay more for it. While we all might like to think we are irreplaceable, we, in general, aren't. I can't tell you how many people I have seen think "If I leave this place, it's going to go out of business. No one here knows what I know", and they leave, and the businesses carry on, 10,15,20 years later.

If you set up your business right, document everything you do, even the tricky stuff, and put it all in manuals, then your business, even if it's important work, can be done by other people. Will they get it right the first time? Probably not, but neither did any of us.

[John Blazy]

Oh the woes. I guess it feels good to know most here are in the same boat except for Tim, who's landing those dreamy $500 / hr jobs that I used to get on occasion. I figured I would have a few full time workers by now, but the longer time goes by, it seems that's less likely. The only guys available on a per job basis are only useful for carrying stuff and shop cleaning. One guy that wants more full time work can't even discern 120 grit sand scratches when polishing. None of them understand decimal equivalents. But boy do they understand social media.
I've come to the conclusion that once I'm ready to hire, I will need to offer an insane salary ($50K per year?) to woo someone from their own successful business, as only business owners are really sharp enough to do the type of stuff I do, or recruit someone else's dream worker.

At the very least, I plan to test new hire's thoroughly by asking to convert decimal equivalents and have them mill, smooth and polish several materials (acrylic, wood, stainless, etc) to size specs just to prove their basic skill sets.

The closest guy that ever appeared worth the time to train, left me to go back to family in W. Virginia. Left on good terms, but all my time spent training was wasted.

[Tim Bateson]

...Will they get it right the first time? Probably not, but neither did any of us.

I've never screwed up a job...... well, "maybe" 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or .......... If you never make mistakes, you are not really pushing your skills and/or machine's capabilities.

I do think we are the larger part of our companies value. However, I would pay good money for an established engraving shop. Had a cherry deal a couple years ago. Fell through the day I was to write the check. Owner sold to her landlord for cash, who probably ran the company into the ground. That customer base & location would have pushed me to the next level, overnight.

A lot of my early business was due to other shops going belly up. Now, I offer services no other engraver in my area will touch. My business could be much larger right now if I hired, but working from my house makes that a non-starter. Besides, I'd micro manage them to death. I'm extremely picky about the quality & the service.
My plan is to work this business another 11 years & at 70, either sell off a well established/loyal customer base & equipment, or just walk away.

I'm sure in the next 11 years someone will rise up and tap my current customer base. Hasn't happened in the last 10 years, but wouldn't surprise me if it did one day. I don't consider the hobbyist to be competition. Just because they are willing to do it for almost nothing is no real threat. I believe skill, quality, and reliability will keep me on top. In the past 10 years, I've seen at least half dozen laser shops open & close in my area. Each time one opens, I loose one or two customers, but never the big ones. Every time one of these shops closes, I get my couple customers back PLUS any new customers they had developed. Maybe an odd business model, but it has worked for me. Like Steve said, we are all replaceable... but I'll be damned if I'm going to make it easy.

[Rodne Gold]

I have a business that employs 20 staff ..

My staff is : manager , 2 sales ladies , 1 marketing lady , full time designer , 2 in the doming room , 3 laser operators , 1 cnc /fiber operator and then general staff for assembly , making up medals , packing etc..and myself brings it up to 20

5 or so years ago , I "worked" myself out the business and made myself almost redundant..a good thing since I had a quad bypass last year and am still recovering
I come in 3x a week from 9 am to 12 ... and basically do nothing

My business runs BETTER without me , I gave 25% to my right hand man and my staff are part of profit sharing.

The business is older than 50 years ..I bought it 43 years back..was a one man type show selling jewellery , arms and ammo and had a few trophies and parleyed it to what it is now
It has huge goodwill value and anyone that buys it gets a ready to run profitable package.

However even if I die ,, my wife has instructions not to sell as the income generated by the business would require 3x the business value on a sale to provide the same income.

ALL my staff are cross trained , the laser operators can run the cnc machines , the doming ladies can do sales and so on..so no reliance on a single person

One thing I did not relinquish is access to the bank accounts .. my partner who has a 1/4 share can pay recipients , but any unusal transaction requires my approval

The springboard to building my busines was when I started employing competent staff instead of being a do it all .. yes..maybe they cant do as well as I could , but thats life.. I have to be happy with 95% of what I could do myself and oddly , some are better than I at their jobs

[Jacob John]

I have a business that employs 20 staff ..

My staff is : manager , 2 sales ladies , 1 marketing lady , full time designer , 2 in the doming room , 3 laser operators , 1 cnc /fiber operator and then general staff for assembly , making up medals , packing etc..and myself brings it up to 20

5 or so years ago , I "worked" myself out the business and made myself almost redundant..a good thing since I had a quad bypass last year and am still recovering
I come in 3x a week from 9 am to 12 ... and basically do nothing

My business runs BETTER without me , I gave 25% to my right hand man and my staff are part of profit sharing.

The business is older than 50 years ..I bought it 43 years back..was a one man type show selling jewellery , arms and ammo and had a few trophies and parleyed it to what it is now
It has huge goodwill value and anyone that buys it gets a ready to run profitable package.

However even if I die ,, my wife has instructions not to sell as the income generated by the business would require 3x the business value on a sale to provide the same income.

ALL my staff are cross trained , the laser operators can run the cnc machines , the doming ladies can do sales and so on..so no reliance on a single person

One thing I did not relinquish is access to the bank accounts .. my partner who has a 1/4 share can pay recipients , but any unusal transaction requires my approval

The springboard to building my busines was when I started employing competent staff instead of being a do it all .. yes..maybe they cant do as well as I could , but thats life.. I have to be happy with 95% of what I could do myself and oddly , some are better than I at their jobs

This is what I'm working toward!

[Ian Stewart-Koster]

at that hour (1/4 to 1am) and through to 4 am I was working on a quote for an upcoming job in Feb. If the builder I gave the quote to gets the job, the signage component is about $33k worth. Some 20mm lasered acrylic letters, 30mm routered acrylic, 150mm deep 1.1m high fabricated letters, and a heap of smaller 3 & 4.5mm lasered stuff, and 2 double-sided illuminated plinth signs... routed & lasered & installed... plus assorted graduated window tint film applied, digital print on window film, and patterns routed in wall MDF panels.

Staff: just me! (+ my wife and occasional help from our grown-up kids on weekends if I'm lucky. We've had apprentices, and employees, and they mostly ended up making more than me after I ended up spending my time teaching them... no regrets though, but when work dries up, then funding others' wages is hard.
I'll be putting a couple of kids on during the upcoming holidays though...

[Kev Williams]

SO-- I'm wondering if I forgot to hit the 'post reply' button last night, or if it was deleted... :)