Looking at quitting my day job????

[Jim Hager]

I was reading the thread below about pricing work and it brought up to me my desire to quit my day job of 27 years and get my cabinet/furniture shop up and runnin. I work at the local jr. high school as the agriculture teacher and do get a good bit of time in there in the shop teaching the "basics" to 8th and 9th grade students.

I have built furniture and cabinets for customers for years and somewhat understand the "pricing" that I need to use to make a pretty decent living out of my shop. I have a steady customer base that keeps me busy making rp doors and cabinet components, selling cabinet hardware at retail, and I also do my fair share of furniture projects too.

I will have a decent retirement coming in every month when I give up the day job. At least enough to meet the bills and buy the groceries. I have a 36x90 shop building with a showrooml, fully equiped with most everything I need to let er rip. I owe no man anything as of Monday afternoon when we paid off the place.

What I need is a good dose of courage. Sorta scary to think about giving up that monthly check that has been coming every month without fail for the last 27 years. I need to hear from some of you guys who might have been in the same place. I read Dev's post on the pricing thread below with his story about loosing his job and not wanting to re-locate and while it does have some insight to what I'm considering I need to hear from more of you who have been there and done that.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Jim - I quit my full time corporate world job in 1989 and went into my own business that involved recruiting computer people for technical jobs - I became a head hunter. It was not a move into woodworking, but it was a similar decision and experience. My wife and I had talked it over thoroughly beforehand, and we had agreed we would gamble two years of income to see if I could be my own boss. I started making money after six months and had some pretty good years mixed in with some mediocre ones. I never made as much money working for myself as I had made working for a big corporation, but... I was a much happier person, and I feel the experience was simply wonderful. I am now retired and I look back on the 12 years of working for myself as the best years in my career. I really enjoyed making my own decisions, and I got to work as hard or as little as I wanted to work. I sure had a lot more quality time to spend with my wife, and we were a lot happier than when I had been a corporate slave. Look before you leap, and have realistic expectations.

[Richard Wolf]

Jim, I gave up teaching 26 years ago to go into business for myself. You certinly have an advantage with a retirement check comeing in. I don't usaully agree with Dev, but he is pretty much on the mark here.
A couple of things I could say to you;
1)You have to price your work at a level much higher than even you think it is worth. No matter how good you are there is just to much down time for planning, collecting materials, cleaning up, whatever.
2)Try to find a niche or a specality, it's very difficult to do it all. I do railings and stairs, and it's not always the most rewarding creatively, have a niche like that is very rewarding financially. Even though I'm am doing the same thing everyday it's a plus, because it cuts down on thinking and planning time.
3)You need to be a self motivator, I think that is what I like about being my own boss the most, no one to blame but myself, but no one to answer to either.
4)I think you have a big plus being a teacher in that you should be a good communicator. Being able to talk to a client or customer and sound intelligent is very important. It instills confidence in people that you know what you are doing.

Good luck.

Richard

[Dev Emch]

Nothing motivates like a Storage Technology Corporation Pink Slip!

To get started on your own would be a very difficult choice to make. But there is one other thing I have to say. Some companies are just nortorious for layoffs and mine was/is the layoff mecca of the US. Over 3/4 of all STC employee numbers belong to layoff reciprients. The one thing I hated more than anything else about working was the constant threat of getting layed off. The gallows humor was thick. Everytime you went to a staff meeting, your heart would skip a beat thinking that there was another RIF in progress. The running joke in Boulder county is that its the only county where everyone holds an STC number and a Social Security Number.

After a while, it does get to be to much. You never know the state of the company because you cannot trust the information comming down from above. You live life one day at time and then one week at a time. You count the number of days, weeks, months and years you have been employed and give God thanks for these. And the really dynamic guys usually wind up starting their own business. Stress is stress and after a while, self imposed stress becomes better than that created by your employer. At least when you mess up, its your own fault and you have no one else to blame. I would not say its better. Its different. And its not easier. By no means is it easier.

So Jim, you need to do some real soul searching. Personally, I dont think I would give up the chance given the chance to do it all over again. I have met some really unsual folks that I in my own trek of life would never have been able to meet before. And this line of contacts is vital for me now as it brings in about 50 percent of new jobs. If I get bored and go back to engineering, then these contacts may also be my inroad to new opportunities as well. So think it over. Its a very disruptive and lifer altering experience but keep your head up and keep a positive outlook and it may be the best thing you ever did.

[Joe Mioux]

Jim, just out of couriosity, how many more years do you have before you can retire will full benefits?

Joe

BTW: I own basically three businesses wrapped up into one. There is a lot to be said about not having to pay health insurance for a family of six, which is what I do now.

[Dan Oliphant]

Jim,
I worked for the same company for 30 years, paid as much as I could into my 401K for a very long time. As the time approached when I was eligible to retire early, I made the decision to retire. Not because I couldn't work any longer or because I didn't want to work any longer, but because I knew there must be more than getting up every morning and going off to a job. I'm 54, with three grand kids and I felt it was time to become part of something other than work alone.
The hobby of woodworking seemed like a good option to pursue as a bussiness venture. At first, my business plan was to advertise, give as many estimates as possibe and see what shook loose. Well I ended up with a fair amount of work and a back log of 5 month. As a one man shop, I was working more hours and feeling more stressed than when I was an engineering manager for a major military defense contractor!!!!
That was not what I wanted, so I cut back on the advertising and started being more selective on the projects I accepted. I wasn't doing woodworking because I needed the money, I was doing it because I like it. As for myself, I am much happier doing less paying work and more projects that I want for my grand kids and grown kids.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

In Texas, your age and years of service have to equal 80, Your pay is figured using the formula

2.4 X years of service X your highest three years average income

Some school districts pay medical, some don't.

[Steve Clardy]

I did it full blast in 1993.
Starved for a couple of years till things took off. I was in debt too much at the time, but got it worked out.
Sounds like debt wise, you are in fine shape to go ahead and do it.
You'll never know whether it's the right thing to do till you do it.

[Jim Hager]

Jim, just out of couriosity, how many more years do you have before you can retire will full benefits?

Joe, my retirement benefits will be reduced by 5% by retiring one year early. Right off the bat I will get a 3% COLA which will bring me back up to within 2% of full retirement benefits. I have considered staying one more year and may still. It may cost me some business growth though. I'm doing about all I can on weekends and evenings.

[Charlie Plesums]

I took early retirement at age 62, but decided not to actually collect retirement... if you bet you will live beyond 80, it is usually financially better to just quit, and wait until 65 or so to start the retirement benefits if you have the savings or other income to carry you.

My wife loves her job, and wants to continue working, so my health insurance on her policy is only about $300 per month - if you think that is bad, try pricing a non-group policy.

I have had a continuous backlog of work since pulling the trigger, but I haven't built the speed required to "make a living." It is a nice supplement to the family income, but I would need to put out a lot more work if I were the sole breadwinner. My productivity is improving, but it is a huge step from being a fast hobbyist, to being a breadwinner. If you need the woodworking income, I suggest that you measure your productivity, not just the most effective minutes, but overall including cleaning the shop, sharpening tools, ordering materials, and updating web site or other marketing program.

Good luck ... keep us posted!

Charlie

[Allen Bookout]

Jim,

Sounds like a no brainer to me. You would not have to make much extra to more that make up the two percent.

I will not go into my story to deeply, but I gave up a great deal to retire five years early (nine years ago) and have never regreted it. I will say that it was a little bit scary at the time. I could always spend more but I have plenty for what I really need or want. If I had wanted to start a business it would have been an even better decision. Luckly my wife and I agree, quality of life is more important than more money than you have to have to make you happy.

Looks like to me that you cannot go wrong. Could retire now with very little loss of retirement income and promote your business or if you REALLY want the extra two percent twelve more months is really not that long---inless of course you really hate your job and then it is an eternity.

Sounds like a win, win situation. Easy for me to say!

Let us know how it goes. Could be an inspiration to others.

Good luck!!! Allen

[Chris Giles]

I made the decision to go into business back in my twenties before I had the responsibilities of wife and kids, so my situation may seem very different from yours. But actually, I made it based on the same issues you are now considering. Quality of life, self-fulfillment and accomplishment, as well as a true passion for the art.

I remember hearing the same thing from most of the older people I knew at the time, which is that the greatest regrets they have are the chances they did not take. Many feel their lives have passed them by without ever fully tasting some of its richest rewards, because they always played it safe. Your situation is far better than most for making the jump to full-time woodworker, as you have a hard-earned safety net to ease you through any tough times that may lie ahead. From the tone of your letter, I would say you have already begun the transition in your heart, and the rest will soon follow. There's no turning back now, so do what you have to do, and reap the rewards as well as the slings and arrows of this great adventure. I'm confident this is one decision you will never regret.

[Dan Racette]

I am on the fence as well. It comes down to insurance for me, that I would need to be in a profit situation within 5 years. Until I can get all of that taken care of, the day job stays. They have, however, been making drastic changes, so, my hand may be forced anyway.

I wonder if there is a woodworking health plan that we could all start as a group!

Wouldn't that be nice.

dan

[markus shaffer]

Jim,

You've gotten really good advice here so far. Probably better than what I can give as most people who've responded come from a similar background to you. I'm still somewhat of a young buck with only myself and a dog to support. Thus, my responsibilities are probably not the same as yours.

I will say that if you take this on as a full time job, prepare to work harder than you ever have before. Perhaps with your retirement it won't be the same issue as with me, but as stated before, there's no one above you to blame or to take up the slack. Also, the happiness it brings you as a hobby will very quickly dissapate if you're not careful. There are many days where I am lothe to drag myself out of bed to go to work.. Those are the days I have to remind myslef that I get paid to play with big machinery and power tools. For a boy, that's pretty damn cool. (this doesn't always work though and sometimes I do still wish I could stay in bed)

I think the most important thing I can say is what I posted in Tom's thread about charging for work. Do not sell yourself short. Look at the competition in your area and see what they are charging. "You are worth at least what they are charging if not more." This is a mentality, not necessarily the truth. Granted I'm in NYC where there is always some jackass willing to spend thousands of dollars on just about anything. There are plenty of people here making "furniture" that I personally think isn't fit to be used as firewood yet people pay obscene amounts of money for it. You may not have the same market, but what has surprised me as I raised my prices was that I didn't necessarily get more affluent people coming to me but rather more "enlightened" people regarding the idea of "custom made." You don't need a rich client base so much as one that is just repectful of what it takes to get what they want versus what the local furniture store has that they will settle for.

If you must work for friends and relatives, do it sparingly and be absolutely sure that there is understanding of what the deal entails. It never ceases to amaze me how poorly people can behave over money. As I stated in Tom's thread, all of my work is by word of mouth. There is nothing better than a good reputation in terms of advertising. Stand by your work and be ready to bend over backwards (within reason) to rectify any issues that arise. We all make mistakes and hopefully when you make yours, it'll happen to be with customers who are understanding. In some ways, I think that's what has gotten me more work. My willingness to make up for a mistake has, in some instances, impressed people more than the pieces I had made for them.

I'll second what Richard has said about finding a niche. Don't try to take on everything that comes your way. Know what is within your capabilities and don't push yourself too far out of that range. I turn down quite a bit of commercial work for the simple fact that my shop is not big enough to build large projects. It's not that the work itself is beyond my capabilities, but I have to factor in what I can build and "store" as I am finishing pieces. Also, I very much enjoy working alone. I can work at my own pace, listen to whatever loud heavy metal I want, stop when I want, etc. I don't take on any jobs that I can't do by myself.

Look at the market in your area and see what people are spending money on. The story Dev related about the knucklehead calling him to see how much cheaper he could build something than the Pottery Barn price will come up fairly often. Show those people to the door immediately. I have pretty much crash-coursed my way through this over the past few years and I spent the first couple years wasting entirely too much time with these kind of people. Realistically, you do have to start somewhere and depending on your skill and capabilities, you may not be able to charge a premium for your services right away, but don't settle for less for too long.

As Chris Giles has stated, your final choice should have to do with your quality of life. If you take care not to let what is now an enjoyable hobby turn into something that you resent having to do, then all should be well.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

-Markus

[Ian Barley]

Now you see - this morning I wrote a brilliant response to this thread - witty, educated, comprehensive - simply brilliant. Then there we had a power cut and I lost it before I could submit it and I get back home this evening and Markus has said evrything that I did but only better.

The only thing I would add is that I would wait the year until the full benefits flow. Use the time to fill in all the gaps around marketing, accounting etc. If the business is there it will still be there in 12 months time.

Good luck

[Bernie Weishapl]

Jim, you have gotten some good advice here. Markus and Ian are dead on in their advice. My only comment would be to hold on to your job for the year you have left to get full benefits. During this year which will go faster than you think, I would get all my ducks in a row so to speak. As Ian said get your marketing, accounting, insurance, etc. all ready to go. Do a few jobs during this year so you can just step into this without missing a beat. 5% is 5%. That could pay your health insurance.

I have a clock repair business with woodworking on the side that I do part time. I repair a lot of clock cases and build clocks for sale. I have often thought of quitting early and doing this full time. I sat back, have watched and talked with others who have went the early retirement route. 5% doesn't sound like much now but as the years progress each one of these people I have talked with said don't be silly like me and quit with 1 or 2 years to go. There will be seasonal flucuations where when I first started I am glad I had my main job to get me by. I don't worry so much about it now but will finish my 30 years then will retire to do this full time. I have about 2 years and that will go pretty fast.

Just my $1.298.

[Jim Hager]

Thanks for all the kind replies. I have studied this thing pretty thoroughly and still cannot make up my mind for sure. :( I will have to move on this one way or the other come March. That is when the school district will offer me another contract and I will have to say yea or nay. Come July 1 of 06 I will either still be in my rut or off and runnin. My quandry is that I can't decide. I'm all over the road as if I had been to the local pub too long and now driving myself home.:confused: Maybe it is just not time for me to decide just yet.

I know in my heart that I will make it just fine because I will have a decent retirement income that is more than lots of people around here live on every month. Is that enough for 10 years from now with the 3% COLA. I don't think anybody can say.

[David Giles]

It's exciting to try something new. I've started five businesses over the last 17 years. Two failed, two were average and one made good money. All were fun to try.

What's the worst thing that can go wrong? Can you live with that? If so, great! If not, better rethink.

Can you identify today where 30% of your first year's income will come from? Specifically, do you have a contract or handshake with someone who will pay you for at least four months work? If not, solve this problem first. A reasonable risk is finding the other 70% of the year's income. Wishful thinking is trying to find 100% without a past track record.

There are two parts to a successful business: selling it and execution. Everything else is secondary. Become equally good at both activities.

Your character will be judged based on how you handle the money. Consider the following priorities:
1) Taxes (FICA, self employment, etc). Don't mess up here. These are not nice or forgiving people.
2) Suppliers: A purchase is a promise to pay.
3) Employees: Ditto. This doesn't include you, you are the owner.
4) The company: treat the business as a separate entity that needs upkeep, maintenance, etc.
5) Yourself. house payment, truck payments, bills, food, etc.

It sounds like you have everything in place to be successful. Good luck and we hope you make a million!

[Scott Coffelt]

I guess I may be the odd man out here, sounds like you have it started now part time. I know 2% doesn't sound like much, it does add up. If it were me i think I would hold that for one more year. In that time, spend some time, money and effort into developing your business--officially (if not already). Get your legal stuff in order, spend some money on marketing materials, begin focusing on the type of clients you would like to have. If you are doing it part time, most likely you have not figured in what you would need to charge to go it alone. You might start charging that for awhile to test your level of business. Like I said, I may be the odd one out here.

[Jesse Cloud]

I retired early about a year ago. Took a stiff penalty, but I have not regretted it one minute. I asked myself if the crap I would have put up with back at work was worth the money I would have made, and it was a definitive no. I am saddened to see a lot of people who just can't let go, even those who retire jump right into another job they hate. What is the money worth to you?
Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but you really pushed a button ;^).
On the other hand, I asked a pro onetime if he had any regrets and he wisely said that doing something you love for a living can kill that love. I don't know if anyone can really give you any advice thats any better than whats in your heart.
My 2 cents worth.

[Michael Gabbay]

Jim - Since you've paid off the mortgage and are basically at full retirement then I'd say go for it. Make sure you know your total costs however before you make the leap. Things like health insurance (if not included in your retirement) and shop insurance may add up. Worse comes to worse you can get a job at Wal-Mart. :eek:

On the other hand you might consider staying on the extra year and bank as much as you can to build up the reserve that you'll need during the lean times. Going to a fixed income does pose its challenges. My FIL retired several years ago a few years too soon. He sometimes regrets having the fixed income but overall enjoys life more now then when he was working.

Good luck!

Mike

[Jon Olson]

Interesting thoughts....as a young guy, retirement is not directly on my mind but satisfaction in my work is VERY important to me. I'm losing my job currently and had a ton of interviews and phone calls but in the end I accepted an offer from my friend's company b/c of the satisfaction and trust i saw working from him was more important than the potential money at a number of start-ups.
Lots of hobbiests, who make the jump to selling, lose the love they had for the hobby. Make sure you get up everyday and look forward to "working" and if that love is not there, take some steps back and evaluate why you want to sell your products. We live in a very materialistic society so be prepared to be compared to the Walmarts/Target products.

Good luck!!!

jon

[Tom Jones III]

Wait for it. You said that you can't make up your mind. You are about to enter a project that will be extremely hard, do you really want to face hard times when you are never really sure if you made the right decision?

I quit my job while I was in college and started working for myself (computer programming). Although I was young and didn't have a mortgage, I had a wife to support and college to pay for. It was wonderful and I sometimes consider going back to that, but it was hard. I can't imagine being in that situation if I wasn't sure that was where I wanted to be. I knew I was doing the right thing, balls to bones.

It is great to pump this forum for information on the "how-to", but if you need to ask anyone IF you should ... then the answer is you shouldn't. When you find yourself so excited that you can't stop telling people about the shop you are going to start, then it is time.

[Jim Hager]

I've got some of this stuff covered already. I have a steady flow of clients for whom I make rp doors and cabinet parts and also do retail of drawer glides, lumber and plywood. I am well known in the area, I have a website. www.hagerwoodworks.com (http://www.hagerwoodworks.com)

I have a pretty good portfolio of completed jobs in a fairly wide arena. I love the weekends at home working in the shop. I got my LLC covered earlier this year. I will by 49 in April.

What gives the courage to go out on my own. My gut I guess.

Sorry about all the ramblings, I do however appreciate everyone's posts to help me make up my mind. They do help. A lot.

[Chris Giles]

Jim,
Fifteen years of fulltime woodworking for all the marbles, wife and kids and all the responsibilities that go with it, and I still can"t wait to get down in the shop every day, seven days a week. The fulfillment that this profession provides is not like any other. Only you can decide if you are this dedicated to this profession, but if you believe you are, then do it. Don't let the numbers and worry dissuade you from your true passion. If you've managed to make a decent living this far, why would you think this endeavor would change that? It is YOU that provided your living, not the employer paying you all these years! Believe in yourself, my friend. You won't regret it!

[Tom Hamilton]

Hi Jim:

You've have received excellent counsel from the Creeker's so I don't think I can add much new.

A couple of recurring thoughts pop up in this thread:

You have a shop and customers so you can get a quick start.

You want to change but I don't think a read that you've had enough teaching, in other words, you are not an ineffective teacher. Or said in the positive, you are still an effective teacher! :)

You are not sure you're ready this year, and you only need one for full retirement. This to me is the critical issue. The 2% difference is forever. You might calculate the difference in life of retirement income with and without the 2%. If you apply a little growth factor to all or part of the 2% it will be a sizable amount of dollars in 25-30 years.

Know your market and charge for it. Richard, Marcus and others have this exactly right. You have no competition, because no one can do what you can do. Charge accordingly.

So, if you came to me I would suggest spending the next year defining a business plan, in writing, securing your full retirement, and continuing to build projects as you can fit them in during the last year of work.

I retired in 1990 from my own businesses and 15 years with Procter & Gamble to manage investments and volunteer in the community. I've enjoyed every minute and I know you will also. Good Luck, Tom

[Ed Breen]

Jim,
Quite a few years ago at age 50 I got the axe from a high corporate position. In my earlier years I had taught special education both in public schools and at the University. My wife wanted to return to Oklahoma and so we did where we took over a small shelterd workshop with an annual budget of about $40,000. Not even close to my prior salary or bonus situation.
Today, 26 years later I go to work every day quite happy. We budget about 7 million a year, but are doing what we are happy doing, regardless of all the extra junk that sometimes comes with the job.
Get your extra year in and go at it full bore!!
Good luck
Ed:)

[Tom Stovell]

Joe, my retirement benefits will be reduced by 5% by retiring one year early.
My wife looked into retiring early from her teaching job. She wasn't eligible to receive any retirement until the age of 56. This is Ohio, one needs to have 30 years or age 56 (I think)

Tom

[lou sansone]

well I really can't add anything to the discussion except the observation of how careful and thoughful the responses have been to a serious question. This really is a great place to exchange ideas, and a great bunch of folks as well

thanks
lou

[Jay Knoll]

Jim

My wife and I quit our "big jobs" when we were 45. Didn't have kids to worry about educating so that wasn't an issue. Lived on our sailboat for 2+years. Moved back ashore and started wondering what we were going to do with the rest of our lives! Unexpected things happen, most of them good. We started a home computer training business. some of my former clients started calling and I could do jobs for them (my non-compete clause was 2 years). Now almost 13 years later we describe ourselves as "under employed". And it is working! We are happier than when we were chasing around doing the "big job", healthier, and have much more free time. We downsized, moved to a lower cost area and found that our quality of life is much improved.

Heck, I even had time to start learning how to do woodworking!

Don't under-estimate the emotional challenges you might face. A large factor in male identity is our work. I had what I characterized as "job withdrawal dreams" for about 3 years after I quit. And I was doing something I had dreamed about doing for MANY years!

The point I am trying to make is that in addition to all the other good advice you're getting is to be open to possibilities. You may end up using your skills in ways that you haven't anticipated.

It seems that the economic aspect of the decision is a no-brainer, you aren't going to get hit hard by "going early". You will have a monthly check coming in, it just will be a pension rather than a paycheck. Perhaps a session with a financial planner or your accountant will give you a dispassionate evaluation of the financial aspects of your decision. Then, the question really comes down to the emotional aspects. If you're really hot to make this happen then you'll go into it with all the energy you need to be successful. I am not suggesting that you can't have doubts, hey that's part of the deal. But on balance if the excitement doesn't over power the doubts then I'd wait until it does.

All the best in your decision. Keep us posted!

Jay

[Dave Tinley]

Jim-
If I were in your shoes I would jump into it, now.
You seem to have all the details worked out and you are very close to obtaining a dream you have.
Alot of the advise you have recieved is on the practacal side but what about the emotional side.
Sure you can wait another year, get those extra benefits but that's also another year out of your life your not doing what you want to do. Its a year you cant rewind and do over. Not wanting to sound morbid but what if something happens in that year? Either medically, financially or some weird twist of fate that could prevent you from doing what you love? Then what?
I have a day job in the autobody industry, been doing this for over 25 years and doing woodworking as a sideline. I have found that I am the most happy and content with my life, is when I get up in the morning and open up my shop doors, when I smell the sawdust, when I am faced with a woodworking project to conquer. And I believe there is no amount of money that can replace that happiness.
I am 48 years old and have a goal to have a fulltime ww job by the time I am 50. I am in the process of working out all those "details" that you seem to have already worked out.
I would much rather be 57 years old and look back and say that I am very content that I took the chance, then to be 57 and say I wish I had of taking the chance.
Good luck on your decision and let us know how it feels that first day you walk into your shop, living your dream.

Dave

[Byron Trantham]

Jim,
You might consider this - pretend you're retired. Try to live with your projected retirement income for a few months. Take the excess from your current paycheck and put it in the bank. My wife and I did this and it worked. My woodworking has provided the extra disposable income to do things my retirement check won't cover. I have been retired for four years and income from wood working is NOT dependable. I have learned one thing; I'm a one man shop and there is just so much I can earn without hiring people. I did not want to get into that! Right now I am without work. I just finished my last project which put about $3K in my pocket but I don't have anything left to do. I know from experience it will start again - when is the question. I use this dead time to tweak my shop, clean the shop to an inch of it's life, make jigs I've been wanting and too busy to make and just generally relax. If you can live on your retirement income and use your wood working income for fun things you will probably be a happier more relaxed person. Good luck with your decision. BTW - I was still VERY scarred to retire!

[Jim Hager]

Jim,
You might consider this - pretend you're retired. Try to live with your projected retirement income for a few months. Take the excess from your current paycheck and put it in the bank. My wife and I did this and it worked. My woodworking has provided the extra disposable income to do things my retirement check won't cover. I have been retired for four years and income from wood working is NOT dependable. I have learned one thing; I'm a one man shop and there is just so much I can earn without hiring people. I did not want to get into that! Right now I am without work. I just finished my last project which put about $3K in my pocket but I don't have anything left to do. I know from experience it will start again - when is the question. I use this dead time to tweak my shop, clean the shop to an inch of it's life, make jigs I've been wanting and too busy to make and just generally relax. If you can live on your retirement income and use your wood working income for fun things you will probably be a happier more relaxed person. Good luck with your decision. BTW - I was still VERY scarred to retire!

Thanks it is good to know that somebody else was a chicken.:rolleyes: We sorta have been doing the thing you mention by pouring nearly all my monthly income into paying off the house plus whatever I could drag in from the shop. In fact we have been living on about $400 less per month than I will draw upon retirement if my figures are right. Since the house is now paid off we will use the rest of my time to save everything we can get our hands on to put back enough to buy the next new vehicle. Our place is new (3 years on the shop and 2 years on the house) and we have late model vehicles that are paid for as well so we've got a good start.

I found out yesterday that I will not be able to sell back my sick days if I retire 1 year early thus not being able to count the value of the sick days on my last years contract. That will put a drain on the monthly income too.

I surely do appreciate all of the replies that I have recieved on this thread. Everyone's thoughts are similar to my own and at least that lets me know that I've been thinking straight. Assuming that an old bunch of woodworkers know something about straight:D. It takes time to post responses to these discussions and I thank each one of you for your time.

I still don't know what to do but at least we've had a great discussion on the topic.

[wallace chapman]

Hey Jim, just wanted to give you some information that pushed me closer to the direction of turning a fascination into a business of working with wood.

This is one of the best Forums I have come across for advice on woodworking and business on the net. I did come across this great site where this discussion was debated.

I hope I can post the full text without violating this forums rules. Some people will find the first post to be their answer and others will find the second post closer to the truth. I personally took the second post as one of my motivations to get myself inline with doing this full time.

The first post is from Howard's Ruttan's website found here:
http://inthewoodshop.org/general/wwa09.shtml






<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>On Going Professional


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I welcome feedback from my readers, and this article brought a response from Jim Delahunty, a professional woodworker. I felt that his comments were valid and important so I posted them here on inthewoodshop.org. You can read Jim's thoughts here. (http://inthewoodshop.org/feedback/pro01.shtml)
Howard Ruttan


December 15, 2002



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I wrote this article a while ago and the issue comes up every once in a while on rec.woodworking. Sometimes I think I am the only one who feels this way. However this month, Ernie Conover, author of 7 woodworking books including the first and second editions of the classic, The Lathe Book, shows that I am not the only one who believes one should proudly pronounce their amateur status before the world. Read about it here! (http://www.conoverworkshops.com/ww/news/ww1_7.htm)

Howard Ruttan
November 6, 2002

<HR align=center width="75%" color=#0080c0>Going professional is a big step, one that can involve a few changes or a total restructuring of your methods of work. A person who sells crafty woodwork or simple furniture at craft sales might consider himself a professional, and providing he is earning money working wood, he is right. On the other end of the spectrum there is the full service cabinet or furniture shop. This is usually a significant departure from the backyard recreational woodworker. Either way, I have decided that I choose to make my living doing something other than woodworking. If you work wood for reasons even closely resembling mine, I would suggest that you do the same. If you are unsure, don't do it. If you are absolutely positive, well different strokes, but I suggest that you look into it in detail before you start as there may be a number of hurdles in your way.
I would add the following disclaimer at this point. The following is not intended to be a comprehensive list. The point of this little essay is to provide you with a few, and I stress the word few, things to ponder while you consider what is probably the dream of every woodworker - to get paid for working wood.
For me, woodworking is a catharsis. It is a love, a need, a method of cleansing, not just a means to an end. Going professional will associate deadlines, rude or unappreciative customers, boring administrative tasks and the like with your woodworking. As soon as this happens, the magic leaves it. I know this from experience. Basically what happens is that you lose your hobby. The fun disappears and the craft becomes diluted by the customer service and business aspects of making money. You will stop woodworking in your spare time, thus it no longer is your hobby. Before I started taking money for my worked I asked around a bit. The common thread I found was that although people enjoyed what they were doing, the working wood for pure enjoyment aspect was lost to working wood as work. After I started to do it for money I found out that they were right. In the long run I decided that it was not worth the hassle.
In addition, there are many factors you have to consider. You can't just turn your garage or basement shop into a working business. First you have to decide what your business is going to be. Then you have to form a company. At this point you have to decide whether you are going to be a sole proprietorship, a partnership or a limited liability corporation. It isn't an easy decision. Consult a lawyer. Even if you think there is even the least little possibility that you might get sued you probably want to incorporate. This involves even more paper work and other such things.
Then you have to get a license to practice from your locality. Is you basement shop going to pass muster? The locality, and in all likelihood all of your neighbors will get to decide for you whether they think the noise and increased traffic and other factors are going to be acceptable. You may find yourself looking for another shop space. This may be especially the case if you finish with combustible spray finishes. Heaven help you if you fudge a little on the description and get caught by the neighbors later on.
Once others decide for you whether you have to move, some additional money (a little if you can stay in your present shop, or a lot if you have to set up all over again) will be required for getting underway. You need quotation forms, letterhead, business cards, possibly a logo or design work, signs, new license plates for you vehicle, or maybe a new vehicle. You must draft a business plan, if you truly wish to be successful, or if you even expect to stand a chance at getting business loan. I haven't even mentioned going to the bank to open your business accounts yet. Without them you will not be able to enjoy the money saving low prices of some of the wholesale vendors, who may not deal with retail customers at all. You will also have to read. If you aren't already familiar with the how to's of marketing, you will have to learn fast. Like it or not, most of your time will now be spent marketing. You will probably have to be bonded if you are going to do any installation work. There is also the issue of all those tools you don't have now, but need. Along with this comes learning how to haul them around so that they don't get stolen, and you always have what you need on the job site. Unless you are just making a few things for a craft sale (which is an entirely different animal to prepare for), you are going to have to be prepared for a slow period until you get enough work to sustain you. You won't be earning right away. In fact, depending on your expense you may not earn anything for up to a year or more. Any how much will you charge? Learning how to charge for the work you do is an art-form all in itself. It took me a long time to come up with a realistic shop rate and the estimating skill to implement it. I never did rely on woodworking for a living so I probably don't have it right yet anyway. Then there are medical insurance and unemployment benefits to consider, and so on. Still not convinced? Unsure? Don't do it. Look into it some more and be sure before you do it. Or are you convinced it is what you want to do? If you are convinced, let me recommend you look at the following list of books (http://inthewoodshop.org/general/treatise.shtml#business). They will assist you in many of the issues that I have listed. Make sure that you do your homework and look into every angle. Talk with fellow woodworkers. Visit the competition. Believe it or not, you will probably get your best information from them. And if it sounds like we are all trying to talk you out of it, well we just want you to be absolutely sure before you try it. If you work wood for the reasons that I do, please don't consider it. It will be very disappointing. But if you are sure, good luck and Godspeed

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Please pay attention to the second post as you may find it as heartening as I did.

Wallace

[wallace chapman]

Here is the Second post and reply found on Howard Ruttan's website found here:
http://inthewoodshop.org/feedback/pro01.shtml





<!-- end title graphic selection code --><!-- ********************************** --><!-- reset date configuration --> <TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><!-- Insert data here --><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>A Reader Responds:

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Jim Delahunty, a professional woodworker, responds indicating that although many opinions (including my article) seem to focus on the negative aspects of going professional, this can actually provide impetus to empower one to succeed. I thought that his comments, and the story he tells, were important and inspiring, and would make a good companion to my article. I am usually an upbeat person - although I make no apologies for my opinons I express on this site - but we all need to be reminded of the good that can happen when being told you can't do something only serves to drive us harder to do it anyway.
Howard Ruttan
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</TD></TR><TR><TD>From: Jim Delahunty
Date: Thursday, November 28, 2002
Subject: Some thoughts on going pro


Howard,
I am not writing to be argumentative, however I would like to add one more facet to your essay on why woodworkers might be better off not going professional. As you say, you are someone for whom this decision meant not only losing a hobby, but also gaining an occupation that you presumably didn't anticipate, or love enough to continue. If I had to guess, I'd say that this scenario is probably the most common one.
I do feel that there is wisdom in affirming the nagging concerns of those on the verge of going pro, and that those who don't have fear probably should. I also know that the people who are destined to succeed at something are going to be inspired, rather than discouraged by being told they are up against the odds, so perhaps no harm can come from giving a negative perspective. When I was about to go into business with a partner, his father (who had failed as a general contractor) gave my friend and I a long speech about how much business we would have to do just to pay the overhead - about all the bad customers - about taxes.....you get the idea. On the way home I saw truck after truck with the proud names of contracting firms on their doors. Some were multi-generational, some I had been seeing around town since I was a kid.
My friend wouldn't admit it at the time, but his fear of the possibility his dad might say, "See, I told you you would fail!" kept him from committing to the partnership. I didn't respond with fear. All I could think about was the anger I felt at being told, though implicitly, that I was overestimating my abilities if I thought that I could do what other people around me were obviously doing. To me, the idea was to see myself ten years in the future. What did I want my life to look like and what did I need to do to make it happen? Was it really so impossible to imagine that I could provide a competent service to the community, get paid the same as the guys in the trucks I had seen, and live a middle-class lifestyle? I was willing to be objective. I was willing to see the obstacles in my path, but I wasn't willing to let my friend's father be right.
Skip ahead ten years, and I'm sitting in a house in the country worth twice as much as my friend's father's. Looking out the window, There is a small woodshop full of machines that were long-ago paid for. As I think of the last ten years of work, I remember cabinets, furniture and the restoration of victorian homes - beautiful work that has been a privilege to do - work that I got by paying dues and honing my skills.
Your essay made me look back at the last ten years of my life and consider the opposite outcome. It reminded me of my own inhibitions and doubts. I imagined a scenario where I had a dream of being a woodworker that turned out to be less enjoyable or profitable than I had hoped. Would my life, and my opinion of my self, be better having made a go of it and decided to stop, the way my friend's father had, or would I have been better off avoiding the entire process? That's not really an easy question. Trying and failing for him meant bitterness that he was passing down to his own son and his son's friends. Obviously there was something more. There was the idea that going after something with a combination of drive, humility, and a willingness to honestly assess, should be it's own reward. To me, building things is something I would do without being paid. I am willing to incorporate a certain amount of the unpleasantness that doing business entails because anything I do for a living 40 hours a week is not going to be fun for all 40 hours. Taking the longest possible view, I try to see myself at the end of my career (or careers). I can't believe I'm going to look back at the thousands and thousands of hours of woodworking and wish I had done something else. I'm not sure why I wrote this to you. I've read it back a couple of times, and I still can't summarize a point, but I felt the need to share this with you. As I said, I think what you are saying is true and valid, I don't really even disagree, but I wanted to add this. Thanks for reading - Jim
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I hope this helps a little as it did for me.

Wallace

[Jim Hager]

I thought you guys might like to know that I have turned in my resignation just last Friday and am going to be out of a job come July 1. I've got to come to school to be a teacher for 38 more days now. ;)

[Tom Stovell]

I thought you guys might like to know that I have turned in my resignation just last Friday and am going to be out of a job come July 1. I've got to come to school to be a teacher for 38 more days now. ;)

Congratulations on the decision and pending retirement--at least from the classroom. I've got 44 more days to 'mold the future and influence those young lives' and then I'm done, too. Those 31 years go by rather quickly. (-:

Tom

[Steve Evans]

Congrats Jim

As many others have said, you'll probably work harder now than you have throughout your career, but it has the potential to be the most rewarding work that you will do. I was laid off from a flying job with a major airline and went into business for myself. When the recall came it was a tough decision whether to go back or not. I love flying, but there are a lot of aspects of being in business for myself that I miss.

Steve

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim.........sounds like a gloat to me! A well deserved gloat!

[Tom Jones III]

Thanks for the update. Congrats on the upcoming transition and thank you for working with the little miscreants for all those years, you left a lasting impact on their lives and all the people they touch.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Jim,
I remember your post from way back. I remember how you were sitting on a fence trying to decide which way to go. I was thinking to myself that you will probably follow the same path as I would. That is, I'd probably work one more year which will then persuade me to make the change. That 'one year' always seems to bring clarity.

Good luck on your retirement...and congradulations on your new (or modified) woodworking venture.

-Jeff :)

[Charlie Plesums]

Congratulations. Pulling the trigger is scary, but watching your plans, I don't know anyone who is better prepared than you. Best wishes at this fork in the road.

Remember that, with today's life expectancies, you now have another 30+ year career ahead of you ;)

[Anthony Anderson]

Congratulations Jim. Well deserved I'm sure. Now you can sit in the shop and have the first cup of coffee in the morning and enjoy the early morning air and the smell of sawdust. No better feeling in the world, other than teaching kids, IMO. Hopefully the kids know where to find you, as I am sure they will, sometime in the future, want to stop by and say thanks. The excitement of a new lease on life. Enjoy it Everyday Jim. Good Luck, Bill

[Eddie Watkins]

Congratulations Jim, and thanks for initiating this thread. I have my retirement papers filled out except for a date. I have read all comments a couple of times trying to muster the courage to write in a date and hand in my retirement papers. It really is a tough decision and I'm glad you could make the decision. Good Luck.

Eddie

[Ed Breen]

Well done Jim,
I know that you'll be successful and never regret your decision. And anyhoo you'll now have time to go out to the river for fishing in the middle of the day!!! ho ho. As an extra, I've always thought that Pocahontas is a pretty little town.
Ed:) ,

[Ron Brese]

I can't imagine a person in a better position to make the leap. It seems that financially you have things covered, you obviously already have a customer base, and the lack of debt will allow you to price things where they need to be and not worry about whether or not you get the work. That's an important aspect of this whole thing. Do it while you're still young enough.

Ron

[Brett Baldwin]

You've certainly done your homework on it so I'll wish you abundant success with your new adventure. I think many here are hoping to live the dream vicariously through you so don't forget to take lots of pictures.;) I think the first one should be your first dollar (or hundred) from your first "official" woodworking business sale. All the ones before now were just practice for this.

Congrats Jim.

[Jim Becker]

Congratulations, Jim!! 'Wishing you the best in your new endeavors!

[Glenn Clabo]

All I can say is... :)

[John Timberlake]

Best of luck in you new adventure. Hope to do something similar when I get ready to retire.

[Jim Hager]

Thanks for all the well wishes guys. I'll try to remember to post a pic of me and my first dollar as a self-employeed person. I may have to pay the taxes and ss out of it first so it will only be a little bit of change:o

[Jim Becker]

Jim, your first dollar goes on the wall. You pay the taxes out of the second dollar!

[Don Bullock]

Thanks for all the well wishes guys. I'll try to remember to post a pic of me and my first dollar as a self-employeed person. I may have to pay the taxes and ss out of it first so it will only be a little bit of change:o

Jim, I salute your decision and wish you the best. I've been wrestling with retirement from teaching for several years now. I decided to go the other way. In my situation going that extra year meant that I'd get about $500/month more for life. I'll be 61 when I retire. I also don't plan to make woodworking a paying business. Your situation sounds fantastic. Yes, I'm jealous.;) :D

[Lou Morrissette]

Congratulations, Jim. I got out at 62 three years ago and have never had any regrets. I retired with the full understanding that I would never be wealthy with my woodworking. It has , however, provided me the means to buy the "toys" I need to enjoy my hobby and still lead a comfortable, active lifestyle. Go for it, brother and enjoy.:D :D :D

Lou

[Ken Werner]

Jim, many congratulations and wishes for your new success and happiness. Please keep this thread going with an update now and then.
All the best.
Ken

[Mandell Mann]

I'm a God fearing man and my advice to you would be to spend some time reading the bible and praying to God for an answer and in due time He'll answer. You just have to be willing to walk in Faith. It works for me 1000% of the time. :)

May God bless your decision!

[Benjimin Young]

I was reading the thread below about pricing work and it brought up to me my desire to quit my day job of 27 years and get my cabinet/furniture shop up and runnin. I work at the local jr. high school as the agriculture teacher and do get a good bit of time in there in the shop teaching the "basics" to 8th and 9th grade students.

I have built furniture and cabinets for customers for years and somewhat understand the "pricing" that I need to use to make a pretty decent living out of my shop. I have a steady customer base that keeps me busy making rp doors and cabinet components, selling cabinet hardware at retail, and I also do my fair share of furniture projects too.

I will have a decent retirement coming in every month when I give up the day job. At least enough to meet the bills and buy the groceries. I have a 36x90 shop building with a showrooml, fully equiped with most everything I need to let er rip. I owe no man anything as of Monday afternoon when we paid off the place.

What I need is a good dose of courage. Sorta scary to think about giving up that monthly check that has been coming every month without fail for the last 27 years. I need to hear from some of you guys who might have been in the same place. I read Dev's post on the pricing thread below with his story about loosing his job and not wanting to re-locate and while it does have some insight to what I'm considering I need to hear from more of you who have been there and done that.

Hi Jim, here is a cute story/anaolgy that may (on may not) help put things in perspective. Good luck!
--------------------
The professor stood before his class and quietly filled a large jar with golf balls. He then asked the students if the jar was full. They agreed that it was.
Next, the professor poured marbles into the jar, shaking it so the marbles rolled down into the open areas between the golf balls. Again, he asked the students if the jar was full. They agreed it was.
The professor then picked up a box of fine white sand and poured it in, again shaking the jar so the sand filtered down into all of the crevices. He asked once more if the jar was full. The students responded with a unanimous "yes."
Reaching under his desk the professor produced two glasses of wine and slowly poured both of them into the jar, filling the empty space between the sand. The students laughed.
"Now," said the professor, as the laughter subsided, "I want you to recognize that this jar represents your life. The golf balls are the important things; your family, your children, your health, your friends, and your favorite passions; things that if everything else was lost and only they remained, your life would still be full. The marbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, your car, etc. The sand is everything else; the small stuff.
If you put the sand into the jar first," he continued, "There is no room for the marbles or the golf balls.” The same goes for life. If you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you. Set your priorities. Take care of the golf balls first; the things that really matter. The rest is just sand."
One of the students raised her hand and inquired what the wine represented. The professor smiled. "I'm glad you asked. It just goes to show you that no matter how full your life may seem, there's always room for a couple of glasses of wine with a friend."
--------------------------------------

[david hines]

I retired from my job of 28 years . I did take a reduction in my pension. I never liked the word "penalty".How can you be penalized for not getting something you havent earned?. Now back to the point, in Maryland there are a lot lot of part time jobs. Most of these local and state gov jobs come with benifits. If these don't create a problem with your pension it will make up most of the gap between what you made and what you will get.I posted this just to give an idea of how to add to your payday. 20 hours a week with medical benifits leaves a lot of time for woodworking and provides some extra income.

[Jim Hager]

Well guys just a bit of an update. I recieved my retirement gift from the school district last Thursday night and I've got only 5 more days in the classroom. SWMBO worked on some wording for an add to put in the local paper as soon as my contract is finished at school so the retirement and full time woodwork career is going to be a reality. I'll be sure to take a pic of the first dollar if I indeed get to actually earn one.;) Thanks for all the replies to this topic over the last months, I really appreciate your comments.

[Richard Wolf]

Best of luck, Jim.

Richard

[Tyler Howell]

Congrats Jim,
You've paid your dues!!!:cool:

[Todd Jensen]

You'll do great. You're in a MUCH better position financially than my wife and I were in when I made the leap.
When a young guy started his own business, his mentor said, "Be prepared, the first year's the hardest." Well into his second year and still challenged, he went to his mentor again. "Keep working, the first 2 years are the hardest." And as you can imagine this went on and on. :) While still new, I've been into this self-employed craftsman gig for almost 4 years, and while there have been many times I've examined other options, nothing is quite like being your own boss. Every mistake I've made, the broke months, and the late hours, all have been worth it and have been hard-won lessons. As long as you can hang on and persevere, there is no way that you'll fail. Enjoy!
p.s. And if you really hate it, you can tell the boss to jump off a cliff, and he'll usually hire you back the next day.:)

[Charlie Plesums]

Congratulations on a great career in the classroom, and getting yourself set up for a second career in your own shop. You have already done everything I could suggest.

I retired 2 1/2 years ago, with far less skill and experience, and a shop jammed into a garage. I am slow and distracted by other activities, but am turning away customers, and my backlog still extends into the fall.

Do good work at a fair price (but I didn't need to say that to you), and I have every confidence you will thrive!

[Don Bullock]

Jim, thanks for the update. I've been wondering how you're doing. It sounds like you'll do fine. Congratulations from one teacher to another. The fruits of your contribution to our society will never be fully known, but you can retire with the pride of your contribution.

I'm finishing out this year (just a few more weeks) and one more year. That will give me 36 years in an elementary school classroom. Once I retire I'll have much more shop time than I have now, but I'm not sure if I'll try to make any money at it. I'll decide on that later.

[Jim Becker]

Congrats on your upcoming official career change!! You'll do fine. Relax and enjoy it!