Problems with 40 degree frog on Veritas Custom Plane

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

I had my first contact with Veritas Custom Plane today, and I have problems fixing 40 degree frog to the body. I purchased preconfigured No4, and additional 40 and 55 frogs. Everything is OK with 45 and 55 frogs, not a single issue, but with 40 degree frog screws are bottoming up before it is fixed. I measured length of the screws protruding from the bottom of the frog, and on both 45 and 55 there is 0.250" protrusion, but on 40, a whole 0.375" is protruding through the bottom.

I will try to resolve issue tomorrow with metric 5mm washers, but it is not ideal solution. Other option is to order a shorter low head #10-32 from USA, but it is not either cheap, or fast solution.

Is Veritas selling 40 degree frogs with different set of screws, which I am missing from the box, or I have issue with awkward plane?

Any ideas? Sending it back to distributor is also not an option, as I will pay custom fees again.

[Ray Bohn]

IMHO you should not have to modify anything from Veritas to make it work.

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

It will be nice if it works from the beginning. Especially for the people paying double US price for the tools, without the possibility to return it to the maker. Excellent customer service in US doesn't help people from other sides of the world, it will be better if there is a good QC, or someone put an effort to make it small problem proof.

Only good solution I see so far is to order shorter (3/8 instead of original 1/2" long) low head 10-32 screws from USA. Another few weeks, and additional 20-30 USD for make things working.

Anyway, I send e-mail to Veritas, will post reply

[Simon MacGowen]

Looks like a different set of screws is needed for the thinner frog: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=72113&cat=1,230,41182,72240,72113

Did you look through the box before you threw away any packing material? They may have also forgotten to include the screws.

Anyway, it is easy for them to ship you the missing screws.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

I have used a 40 degree frog in my #7 from the outset. At the time of getting it I also had a 50 degree frog. Similarly, I purchased a 42 degree frog to go with the #4 with a 50 degree frog. In both cases, only the single set of screws was used. It has never been a consideration that there might be a second set needed for a different frog body.

Personally (speaking for myself), I go down the route of "fix it myself if it can be done simply" before I even think of calling in someone else. In you situation, I would let Lee Valley know first - if it does not work, then it is their responsibility to sort it out (which we know they will do, and pronto). Myself, I would grind the screw down a little at a time until it was the ideal length.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

Of all the Veritas plane products I have got from LV, none (zero) would require me as a customer to do some shop work to make it work (honing edges aside). I am sure Lee Valley will have a satisfactory response other than one that requires a customer to make the screws a little shorter.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

It will be nice if it works from the beginning. Especially for the people paying double US price for the tools, without the possibility to return it to the maker. Excellent customer service in US doesn't help people from other sides of the world, it will be better if there is a good QC, or someone put an effort to make it small problem proof.

Only good solution I see so far is to order shorter (3/8 instead of original 1/2" long) low head 10-32 screws from USA. Another few weeks, and additional 20-30 USD for make things working.

Anyway, I send e-mail to Veritas, will post reply

Howdy Bogdan and welcome to the Creek.

Your e-mail should get the ball rolling. Until then if you do want to use the 40º frog the washers under the head of the screws will work if it doesn't cause the screw heads to interfere with the blade.

One of the problems of QC is it is almost impossible to check over every component and every tapped hole for compliance.

jtk

[Bradley Potts]

Bogdan, for sure, LV's products and customer service are tops, so I suggest you call them before doing anything else and explain the situation and they will make it right and very quickly too. Another thought is that there may be some sharf (the residual milling metal particles) in the threads that is causing things to seem like they are bottoming out, also some lubricant on the threads will help too.

I own numerous products from Lee Valley and they are amongst the finest North American products to be had, and their customer service is on par with the products, so please don't get too upset yet, they will make it right. I hope it is something simple and solvable by you.

[Patrick Chase]

Like Derek I have 40 and 42 deg frogs for my LV Custom planes. Here are some measurements that might help you debug the problem:

The frog screws for my custom #4 (didn't check any of the others) are 15/32" long, measured from the bottom of the head to the tip.

When the screw is fully inserted into the 40 deg frog it extends 3/8" beyond the bottom of counterbore that surrounds the screw hole (9/32" below the bottom face of the frog).

The screw holes in the plane sole measure 13/32" deep relative to the surrounding boss that fits into the counterbore on the frog, so there appears to be 1/32" of clearance in depth.

It sounds like one or both of two things may be happening here:

1. You stated that your screws are 1/2". If that's accurate then they're 1/32" longer than mine, and that would use up all of the depth tolerance in the frog mounting holes. Can you check and confirm that they are indeed exactly 1/2"?

2. If your screws are the correct length and your extension truly is exactly 3/8" from the bottom of the counterbore, then the other possibility is that the threading is compromised as Bradley suggested. You might want to first check the hole depth and confirm that it's 13/32", and then see if you can insert the screw all the way to the depth you measured. For that matter these holes are shallow enough that you can inspect the threading under magnification without too much difficulty.

I almost hate to suggest it, but these soles are iron, so if you were really desperate you could probably improvise a flat-bottomed tap by notching the threads of a sufficiently hard screw and use it to chase the threads. You shouldn't have to do that with a new tool from a vendor like LV, but it's feasible.

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

Patrick, thanks.

1. I managed to mount frog properly by using 1/32 (0.8 mm ) thick washer, M4 metric size, rebored to 5mm. M5 washer was too large to fit into countersink. So, 1/32 shorter screws will resolve the problem. Even less thick washer might do.

2. I also remeasured screws. Threaded part on both of them is exactly 31/64 " long.

3. I inspected holes, chased both treads with bent needle, and don't see any obstruction till the end of thread. There were some swarf on the bottom of both holes, I cleaned it, and flushed them with alcohol. It didn't help. I also ground off carefully rolled edge on bottom of one screw, without shortening threaded part, to check if combination of rolled burr and sawrf were causing problem. No luck with that either.

From everything above, it looks like internal thread on the plane body is just bit too short. I will see reply from Veritas.

I hate to modify plane body, and will look for the solution without modifying it. Current patch with washers will work until I get 7/16" low head socket screws, which should resolve the issue if Veritas doesn't come up with workable solution. Shipping plane back and forth from Europe to US is no go, as shipping costs will be more than price of plane body, and anyway, it is working, except with 40 degree frog.

[Derek Cohen]

2. I also remeasured screws. Threaded part on both of them is exactly 31/64 " long.

... I also ground off carefully rolled edge on bottom of one screw, without shortening threaded part, to check if combination of rolled burr and sawrf were causing problem.

.... From everything above, it looks like internal thread on the plane body is just bit too short.

Do not mess with the plane body! Just take a tiny bit more off the screw. You have not removed enough. If you bugger it up I am sure that LV will still supply new screws.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Lee]

Hi Bogdan,

Sorry for the problem...we’ll get it sorted out. Have copied both R&D and production folks...and will have an answer for you Monday.

Cheers,

Rob Lee

[Patrick Chase]

From everything above, it looks like internal thread on the plane body is just bit too short. I will see reply from Veritas.


Out of curiosity, how deep are the holes in your body? As noted above I measured 13/32" from the top surface of the boss.

[john zulu]

Stop fettling.... Veritas has great customer service. I don't fettle with my Veritas gear. Not worth the hassle.

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

Rob,

Thanks.

I wouldn't fettle if I live in USA. ;) Shipping to Veritas will be simple solution. ;)

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

I must say that I am astonished with support offered by Veritas. Custom Plane is my 8th Vertas plane, and it won't be last.

[James Pallas]

I must say that I am astonished with support offered by Veritas. Custom Plane is my 8th Vertas plane, and it won't be last.
I own several LV products and several LN products. I have had reason to call both companies. I would like to say it is a pleasure to deal with these companies. It almost makes me want to call them just to have a chat. I realize in today's world that is unusual. I wish that people would give them a call first before posting here. If you call and can not get things worked out, which would surprise me, than you can post away in my opinion. They deserve the chance to help before the complaint hits the forums. YMMV.
Thanks for posting your experience Bogdan.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

I wish that people would give them a call first before posting here. If you call and can not get things worked out, which would surprise me, than you can post away in my opinion. They deserve the chance to help before the complaint hits the forums.

Even though this is an extremely proper and logical practice, a person who is on the receiving end of a statistical "falls through the QC cracks" scenario is experiencing high anxiety and may find some solace in posting and hearing from others that this too will turn out well.

The anxiety is exponentially multiplied by the distance and international boarders between the vendor and the buyer.

At least in this case we are fortunate the man behind the magic at Lee Valley follows woodworking forums or at least this one.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

I have never posted and will never post anything regarding a sales/purchase problem without first sorting it out with a vendor. Most vendors don't have a presence in forums anyway. You can't rely on forums to help you with your sales issues in all but a few exceptional cases.

It is not about protocol (of a forum) but about effectiveness. If I couldn't get a purchase issue resolved quickly and directly with the vendor/retailer (through its sales people or their boss), I don't expect any forum would help me anyway.

The last time I had a problem with a purchase from Lee Valley Tools, it got dealt with to my satisfaction by its Customer Service, without any involvement of Rob Lee here, as helpful as he always has been -- and that is how a well-run company (or Customer Service) should work.

Simon

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

You should also count in money and time. It sounds simple when you live in US, but being on other side of the pond complicates things a little bit.

No 4 custom with 2 additional frogs and slow adjuster cost almost 700 USD here. In US, it is below 450 USD. If I order from US, it will take 3-4 weeks before I get it. I spent this month 1500 USD on Veritas tools (I usually make 2 big purchases per year) for something which will cost 900 in USA. Taking into consideration money, waiting time, a problem, no matter how small in US looks quite big, and disappointing.

If you exclude UK, all tools are very expensive in Europe. And if you live in smaller country, after sales support is a sad story, no matter warranty. Return period is 5 working days, if you ordered online, if not, you can't return product. Not to mention that all major electric tools dealers (No proper neanderthal tools dealers here) keep tools for 45 days for the warranty repair. On top of that, prices are double than in USA. This is not power tools forum, but just as example, Makita 2012NB planner cost 1280 USD here. Isn't it about 600 in USA? And when belt break down, waiting period on spare part is from 10-45 days.

When you live in such conditions, only option is to buy highest quality tool (Like Veritas, or LN) in hope that everything will be Ok. When you open new tool (toy?) after long waiting period, and discover that it requires non planned intervention and parts to make it working, and that it will need to wait till next week, for patch up solution, and maybe month or longer for real solution wouldn't you be disappointed?

[Noah Magnuson]

It is one thing to post a "complaint" without first contacting a vendor, but often these threads start out more as a "Is anyone else having this problem?" and trying to sort it amongst peers in case it is user error. In the latter case it is perfectly acceptable, though sometimes others jump on and turn it into a trash-fest of product/vendor opinions which is unfortunate. I don't think it is always so simple to decide how to handle and at least for Rob, he has only benefited from his responses to these sorts of threads.

[Patrick Chase]

It is one thing to post a "complaint" without first contacting a vendor, but often these threads start out more as a "Is anyone else having this problem?" and trying to sort it amongst peers in case it is user error. In the latter case it is perfectly acceptable, though sometimes others jump on and turn it into a trash-fest of product/vendor opinions which is unfortunate. I don't think it is always so simple to decide how to handle and at least for Rob, he has only benefited from his responses to these sorts of threads.

Exactly. FWIW I think that Bogdan's OP was reasonable.

I think it's important in cases like this to take a "just the facts" approach and avoid using terms that imply judgment (defective, broken, etc).