Weinig 22n

[Michael Larson]

Just picked up this 22n about two months ago and love running it. I was running a Stetson ross push feed before and what a difference. The 22n has ats on the top and left head and can store up to 96 setting or something like that, so far I have 8 programmed in. I will load so pictures when I figure out how to. I am wondering what everyone else is running? How they handle there rippings? How fast your running on s4s or t&g? What your moulder is tooled up with and any other info your willing to share?

Thanks,

Mike Larson

[Michael Larson]

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Here it is getting it in place and just after the first run.

[Darcy Warner]

Don't stick your hand in this one.

[Michael Larson]

Marcy,

I still have all 10 fingers, I did come close to lossing my pinky on my stetson ross, it's a risk you take when your woodworking and everyone makes mistakes. If your running equipment there's always a risk, if your not, your safe. I would still love to see your big operation. Keep pumping out product!

Thanks,

Michael

[J.R. Rutter]

I am wondering what everyone else is running? How they handle there rippings? How fast your running on s4s or t&g? What your moulder is tooled up with and any other info your willing to share?

Congrats on the Weinig! ATS sounds handy. I've got an SCMI Compact 23 that we use for s4s and some cabinet door profiles.

For ripping, we have a straight line rips saw set up parallel to but ahead of the moulder. I normally run it solo and have a long outfeed table where the ripped blanks pile up on the right and the offal slides off the left side into a plywood trough on casters. The trough is about 10" wide x 2 ft tall x 8 ft long. When it is full, I tip it onto the forklift, ratchet strap it into a tight bundle, throw some bands on it and stack it outside. A guy comes once a month to pick up the bundles and turns it into kindling. The ripped blanks are positioned so that they do not have to move far to feed the moulder. If I had a bigger space, I would push the moulder further down so that they didn't have to move at all. There is an old Whirlwind jump saw across from the moulder infeed (to the right of the SLR looking at the infeed) where wonky boards can get broken into shorter segments and the worst defects get taken out.

I only run the moulder at 25-30 fpm for S4S and slow it down to under 20 FPM for profiles. For tooling, I have some Global Tooling shear cut spiral insert heads, some Terminus insert heads, some 50mm straight carbide insert side heads (1" travel on the side spindles, so I can use the entire knife over it's lifespan), some Leiser carbide insert crown profile heads that came with the machine, a corrugated head, and some universal carbide insert heads that are used for running sticking for beaded or mitered profiles. If I was doing it again, I would get a set of Weinig insert heads.

The SCM has a bed lube setup, but I find that it is easier to just lift the cover and squirt some spray lube under the feed wheels from time to time. During any setup changes, I use a block of parrafin wax to rub down the entire table. I put a set of Western Roller feed wheels on because sometimes the stock is a bit scant and the steel wheels would dent areas that just get skimmed by the top head. I went with the red medium hardness, but would do yellow next time.

https://i.imgur.com/R342w.jpg

[Michael Larson]

J.R.

Beautiful shop, is that your tooling cabinet under the infeed of your moulder? What machine is in the far back right corner? I appreciate all the info, do you like the SCMI moulder and have you ran deep profiles on it? Does your dust get pumped outside, that is a big sticking point for me right now as mine doesn't. Are you happy with global toolings stuff? For s4s I am running guhdo spiral insert heads on my first bottom and top head and quickset carbide heads on the sides and the final bottom head. Do you do any of your own profile grinding? If you don't mind sharing I would be interested in where you get your corrugated knife stock and what type you use.

Thanks,

Michael

[Martin Wasner]

I too am curious what that is in the back right corner. Clamp?

[Joe Calhoon]

Key to getting efficiency from a moulder or four sider is good dust collection, a good system for chip storage and at the minimum a small SLR.
When we first set up ours I thought a heavy table saw with a power feed would work. A couple years later we put in a small SLR and the difference was like night and day.
Our original DC handled it but we were dumping the 4-55 gallon drums several times a day. We installed a briquiter in the system and this worked well till we overloaded it on a large flooring run and broke it. We now use a closed loop dust transfer to a 16 yard dump trailer and this works just about right for our present production. If I could do that over I would have went for a tandem dump trailer with a larger box. At my semi retirement workload I would like the briquiter back in the system. Larger millwork outfits normally blow shavings into a semi trailer box.

JR, I would like to see a picture of your SLR out feed table. I tried to build a similar out feed but could never get the keeper boards to slide off correctly.
Miss engineering I think..
We are about the same for feed rates and also do not use the auto table lube that much. Just squirt Waxlit on occasionally.

The T-90 is a different animal than a Weinig or SCM with not a lot of moulding capability. We run a lot of S4S, T&G, back out and all the parts for our window scantlings, door parts and millwork.
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[J.R. Rutter]

J.R.

Beautiful shop, is that your tooling cabinet under the infeed of your moulder? What machine is in the far back right corner? I appreciate all the info, do you like the SCMI moulder and have you ran deep profiles on it? Does your dust get pumped outside, that is a big sticking point for me right now as mine doesn't. Are you happy with global toolings stuff? For s4s I am running guhdo spiral insert heads on my first bottom and top head and quickset carbide heads on the sides and the final bottom head. Do you do any of your own profile grinding? If you don't mind sharing I would be interested in where you get your corrugated knife stock and what type you use.

Thanks,

Michael


I too am curious what that is in the back right corner. Clamp?

The machine in the back is an RF gluer. This is the same model that I have: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3X-yrXNn6w It does a great job at flattening panels while gluing. The surface of the joints is still wet when it cycles out, but the interior is set enough to handle. We let the panels sit for an hour (or typically overnight) before working them.

My DC is a 15 HP Torit cyclone that has a big hopper underneath. A farmer from down the road parks a trailer under it and we pull a slide gate to dump as needed. It easily holds a day's worth of shavings for our production rate. I would like to put a rotary gate on the bottom of the hopper to dump continuously. The return air runs through a big bag house with 64 Beane filter fabric tubes and the dust cake fills a hopper w/ 55-gal drum underneath. As long as the cyclone doesn't overflow, the bag filter only needs emptied every 6 months or so.

The Global Tooling stuff is just OK. I would buy better if I were doing it over. I don't have a profile grinder, which makes it a little tricky to set up outsourced corrugated profiles because the knives do not quite have a constant minor diameter.

Joe, I will take a pic of the outfeed later. It is lower than the saw, so two boards can feed one on top of the other. I actually like running it myself because it requires just enough walking to keep you limber as opposed to standing next to a unit of lumber to just feed it. You just need to walk to the end of the saw to stack the keepers on the right and slide the offal into the trough to the left. I just used an old torsion box that we used to have a compound miter saw and fence bolted to, so the width isn't ideal. It works well enough that I never changed it.

[J.R. Rutter]

https://i.imgur.com/EsSodC5.jpg

As an aside, the white bags are full of crosscut scrap. A guy comes and takes them away for firewood as needed. I found him over 10 years ago via a craigslist ad when I was trying to keep my garage shop clean and he has been doing it ever since. He even supplies the bags. So my waste stream is pretty well handled :)

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks JR
i get it now. I thought you had a upside down V for the outfeed. I had seen something like that and tried to build one but it never worked. The offall drops one way and boards the other way.
We have a same height outfeed with a roller table alongside. This works well for taking down a unit with two people but a pain when working alone because you have to reach across the roller table. Anymore we usually rip singlehanded and like you do not mind hiking. Same with the moulder, we put on two Aigner extension tables and can usually feed 3 or 4 pieces before hiking.
So, do you rip 2 boards before walking around?

[Michael Larson]

Joe,

I just picked up a lift table for the out feed of my slr and moulder bc I got so tired of walking around, I hope it works like I think it will. I am curious about your dc setup, I can't tell exactly how your returning the air. My set up is similar to yours but bc I don't have high ceiling everyone has said it's nearly impossible to pump it outside. I would love some details bc I am emptying 4 barrels for every hour of run time.

Thanks,

Michael

[J.R. Rutter]

So, do you rip 2 boards before walking around?

I saw one of those tables in operation once and it looked like a mess with the first edge rips and keepers both falling one way. I feed two at a time when I'm in a hurry and one at a time normally. The moulder has a similar table, but wider. Since we are using 4/4 material almost exclusively, the table is low enough to fit a stack of five before you need to walk down to slide that stack over and/or pile it on top of another. The scale of our jobs lets us run the entire job onto the outfeed table and the precision crosscut saw is right there. Rails and stiles go onto a flat cart to move the 20 feet to the cope/stick shaper, and panel staves flow down the table to the RF gluer.

Joe, since the Martin can do random width, do you rip for absolute max yield or cut on increments for panel staves (or do you glue right off the saw)?

[Martin Wasner]

If you've got the space, a return conveyor is the hot ticket.

If I ever add onto the building, I'm making room for that.

[Darcy Warner]

If you've got the space, a return conveyor is the hot ticket.

If I ever add onto the building, I'm making room for that.

I just make my 12 year old do it, or my wife.

[Michael Larson]

I just make my 12 year old do it, or my wife.

Someone's gotta do the work while you unload Smittys machines for him.

[Darcy Warner]

Someone's gotta do the work while you unload Smittys machines for him.

I have bigger fish to fry than his.

[Joe Calhoon]

I saw one of those tables in operation once and it looked like a mess with the first edge rips and keepers both falling one way. I feed two at a time when I'm in a hurry and one at a time normally. The moulder has a similar table, but wider. Since we are using 4/4 material almost exclusively, the table is low enough to fit a stack of five before you need to walk down to slide that stack over and/or pile it on top of another. The scale of our jobs lets us run the entire job onto the outfeed table and the precision crosscut saw is right there. Rails and stiles go onto a flat cart to move the 20 feet to the cope/stick shaper, and panel staves flow down the table to the RF gluer.

Joe, since the Martin can do random width, do you rip for absolute max yield or cut on increments for panel staves (or do you glue right off the saw)?

JR,
I never saw one of those upside down V tables in use, just tried to copy a picture of one. Maybe they work if ripping the same width all the time. We normally rip smaller batches most of the time. I think I will figure a way to stash the roller table when not ripping with a helper.

We can do random width boards for edge glued panels on the T 90 without ripping (with rough edges) up to about 3 to 4' long. It straightens crooked edges but if the board is different width from end to end more than a 1/4" it doesn't work very well. Longer panels for interior doors we usually straighten and rip parallel on the SLR. Critical glue ups for exterior panels, table tops and the such I like to do a spring joint on the jointer. We have glued up off the SLR for door and window cores. Its OK but I can see the joint. I could probably try a better blade but happy with the process now. As per the discussion on Woodweb the better SLRs will get a decent glue joint.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe,

I just picked up a lift table for the out feed of my slr and moulder bc I got so tired of walking around, I hope it works like I think it will. I am curious about your dc setup, I can't tell exactly how your returning the air. My set up is similar to yours but bc I don't have high ceiling everyone has said it's nearly impossible to pump it outside. I would love some details bc I am emptying 4 barrels for every hour of run time.

Thanks,

Michael

Michael,
The low ceiling does present a problem with a Rotary air lock and transfer fan. Years ago we were ready for a bigger DC than the Murphy bag house we were using and wanted to move it inside as a subdivision grew up around my shop. We only have 12' ceilings and Belfab had the only unit that fit in that space. They use a different system than a RAL. The bottom of the collector is V shaped with a transfer fan at each end. This allows everything to sit low.

If you look at the picture the 6" vertical pipe goes to the trailer. You cannot see the 6" return on the back end of the collector. Hanging and disconnected is the pipe used to go to the briquetter.

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[Martin Wasner]

Joe, did you have trouble with the Murphy Rodgers baghouse clogging socks? We've got a 20hp unit sitting outside and it's been enough of a problem that I'm kicking around putting a cyclone in front of it. The air to cloth ratio is whacked on mine. The super fine stuff isn't an issue, the shaker does a good job dropping it in the hopper, but the big fluffy chips like off of the panel raiser are pretty much guaranteed to not lay down, and they get stuck in the bags.

To be fair, we're just dropping in the hopper at the moment, then opening a gate to drop into a drum a couple of times a day, which I'm sure allowing the chips to sit in there is contributing to the problem. I've got an airlock that needs to be rebuilt and installed. My long term plan is to blow into a trailer or dumpster. I'm not sure if the airlock is really going to help or not. Once the airlock is in place it'll be a real pain to knock the socks loose too. With cyclone in front, I shouldn't be getting anything but the finest of dust in the baghouse.

I keep meaning to get a tipping hopper to go under there in the meantime, but I keep finding creative ways to piss away money (like Monday I decided I NEEDED a better linebore than $5500....)

[Martin Wasner]

JR, I'm pretty sure you're talking about something like this?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k9r-HnE0bQ

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, did you have trouble with the Murphy Rodgers baghouse clogging socks? We've got a 20hp unit sitting outside and it's been enough of a problem that I'm kicking around putting a cyclone in front of it. The air to cloth ratio is whacked on mine. The super fine stuff isn't an issue, the shaker does a good job dropping it in the hopper, but the big fluffy chips like off of the panel raiser are pretty much guaranteed to not lay down, and they get stuck in the bags.

To be fair, we're just dropping in the hopper at the moment, then opening a gate to drop into a drum a couple of times a day, which I'm sure allowing the chips to sit in there is contributing to the problem. I've got an airlock that needs to be rebuilt and installed. My long term plan is to blow into a trailer or dumpster. I'm not sure if the airlock is really going to help or not. Once the airlock is in place it'll be a real pain to knock the socks loose too. With cyclone in front, I shouldn't be getting anything but the finest of dust in the baghouse.

I keep meaning to get a tipping hopper to go under there in the meantime, but I keep finding creative ways to piss away money (like Monday I decided I NEEDED a better linebore than $5500....)

Martin,
The MRM 12 was not a bad unit and most of the problems with it were caused by me! From the factory the cloth to air ratio is not great but it works if you keep the bags clean. Our problems started when the electric shaker gear motor went out. They could never come up with a gear motor to match the original and they kept breaking. We ended up shaking manually. Then, I let a DC expert talk me into putting a high efficiency fan and better bags in the unit.That was a huge mistake as the bags then clogged very quickly. At the time we were very busy and had a few guys working. When the DC is down you are down! The Belfab has been OK. The MR was a little cleaner and one of the Belfab transfer fans leaks a little but not a big issue.
If yours has a electric shaker take good care of it. Ours worked loose and that how it broke.

[Darcy Warner]

Joe, did you have trouble with the Murphy Rodgers baghouse clogging socks? We've got a 20hp unit sitting outside and it's been enough of a problem that I'm kicking around putting a cyclone in front of it. The air to cloth ratio is whacked on mine. The super fine stuff isn't an issue, the shaker does a good job dropping it in the hopper, but the big fluffy chips like off of the panel raiser are pretty much guaranteed to not lay down, and they get stuck in the bags.

To be fair, we're just dropping in the hopper at the moment, then opening a gate to drop into a drum a couple of times a day, which I'm sure allowing the chips to sit in there is contributing to the problem. I've got an airlock that needs to be rebuilt and installed. My long term plan is to blow into a trailer or dumpster. I'm not sure if the airlock is really going to help or not. Once the airlock is in place it'll be a real pain to knock the socks loose too. With cyclone in front, I shouldn't be getting anything but the finest of dust in the baghouse.

I keep meaning to get a tipping hopper to go under there in the meantime, but I keep finding creative ways to piss away money (like Monday I decided I NEEDED a better linebore than $5500....)

You really need a cyclone in front of those. The big chips will clog the bags, just like you are saying. They are great for saws, Sanders, and other finer dust, but the chips will hang. Cyclone drop into a hopper, airlock to transfer blower into a semi or the like or just into a small dumpster. Fines can go through your bag house and then return that air to the building.

[J.R. Rutter]

You really need a cyclone in front of those. The big chips will clog the bags, just like you are saying. They are great for saws, Sanders, and other finer dust, but the chips will hang. Cyclone drop into a hopper, airlock to transfer blower into a semi or the like or just into a small dumpster. Fines can go through your bag house and then return that air to the building.

Agree on the cyclone seperator. Next step for us is a rotary air lock on the cyclone hopper. It is brutal to pull the gate manually because the vibration throughout the day causes the dust to settle and bridge in the hopper. So you need a 10 ft stick to get up in there and get everything loose enough to flow out.

[Martin Wasner]

Then, I let a DC expert talk me into putting a high efficiency fan and better bags in the unit.

I get the better fan causing trouble, but I would think better flowing bags would help?

One of the equipment dealers around here was talking about some sort of sock that is similar to Under Armour material that was supposed to be awesome. I keep forgetting to ask him what it was so I could look into it.

[Joe Calhoon]

You would think but it was too much fan. Worked good till the bags clogged. Cyclone first is ideal but the right cloth to fan ratio with a good bag cleaning system works well on bag houses. We don't have trouble with clogging on the Belfab and did not on the MR till we messed with it.

The local cabinet door shop uses a large Dantherm bag house and it works well for them. The Euro shops we tour usually have exotic dust systems with cyclones, bag houses, storage silos, sawdust boilers and VFD controlled all adding up to big bucks. They figure long term with their high energy costs it pays off.