Kerf marks?

[Martin Wasner]

Instead of hijacking another thread...

Can somebody show me a picture of a saw cut with no marks?

I have four tablesaws, a $30k panel saw, and a $25k rip saw. All of them leave varying levels of marks behind. I see this topic come up once in a while, and either I have really low expectations, I'm pushing stuff too hard, or.... what.

I've got chop boxes that will cut across the grain pretty flawlessly, but there's still saw marks. But with the grain, I don't have anything I'd prefer to go straight to an orbital with.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

No marks is not really going to happen, we both know that.

However, I would say the cut quality off of my 14” Kanefusa combination blades (what I use on my 10’ Griggio slider for panels, both veneer and solid woods) and off the 14” Kanefusa ripping blade are amazing.

I use the Kanefusa ripping blade as a glue line rip, for large things like table tops. Cuts 8/4 hardwood like the proverbial hot knife through butter. Easily just a quick sand to finish up if need be.

What are you cutting (material)?

There is also a huge difference between pushing the material through by hand VS clamped to the carriage and passed through like that. Much better cut quality clamped.

JFYI we start with the ROS at 120 grit.

[David Kumm]

Martin, do you stone or grind flanges down to eliminate runout? I do that with all my saws ( I rehab old stuff ). Nearly eliminates marks if I rip at a steady rate. 370010370011370010370012 Here a door I trimmed off ( 1/8" too much I might add ). I tried to get a picture of the few light marks that are there but not much. A little blurry but you can just make out some marks in the last picture. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

What are you cutting (material)?

Mostly plywood and pretty much any domestic hardwoods.

The cleanest cuts are definitely off the panel saw, but that's a hollow grind blade, (Lueco I think?). I've glued up some big tops using that to straightline two halves for a final glue up. I'd rather use a jointer if it were worth fighting a big piece. Also with big honking tops, I usually end up sanding a sawn edge, I'd much prefer removing machining marks from the jointer, or better yet, parts from opposite shear straight cutter I've got in a shaper. It may be a clean cut coming off of a saw blade, but it's not as clean as my go to methods are.

I see posts about sawmarks and others saying they have none. Seems impossible to me, which is why I posted. I don't think I'm getting anything less than expected in cut quality from anything I've got.

[Matt Day]

Martin,

I’m guessing you’re referencing my comment in the Pm66 thread, so i’ll reply. It’s not perfect, but here’s a picture of a rip cut in my Uni with Freud rip blade, and another with a non-rip blade (I think it was a Cross-Cut or wwii, don’t recall). Same saw setup, same cut setup, same material.

i know the rip blade cut isn’t perfect like it’s just been sanded to 220, but it’s an obvious difference. It could use a cleaning and sharpening would I’m sure improve it as well.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, do you stone or grind flanges down to eliminate runout? I do that with all my saws ( I rehab old stuff ). Nearly eliminates marks if I rip at a steady rate.

I did on my 66 years ago which is kinda the general use saw in the shop. It cuts everything needed on the benches. Two of my saws are setup dedicated dado, the Northfield for box work, the Delta for grooving drawer bottoms. The Northfield is smooth as silk, the Unisaw I don't care. But, I think my Tannewitz would benefit from a little cleanup in this area. It's used for cutting sheet stock and it's pretty darn good, just not quite there. It's also 70 years old, but a very smooth running saw. No replacement for direct drive when it comes to smooth operation!

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Mostly plywood and pretty much any domestic hardwoods.

The cleanest cuts are definitely off the panel saw, but that's a hollow grind blade, (Lueco I think?). I've glued up some big tops using that to straightline two halves for a final glue up. I'd rather use a jointer if it were worth fighting a big piece. Also with big honking tops, I usually end up sanding a sawn edge, I'd much prefer removing machining marks from the jointer, or better yet, parts from opposite shear straight cutter I've got in a shaper. It may be a clean cut coming off of a saw blade, but it's not as clean as my go to methods are.

I see posts about sawmarks and others saying they have none. Seems impossible to me, which is why I posted. I don't think I'm getting anything less than expected in cut quality from anything I've got.

try a Kanefusa blade. It will be at least as good or better than anything else I’ll guarantee that. Or I’ll buy it from you, lol.

the big ripping blade is almost magical. I love using it, it is just not what you expect from a low tooth count aggressive blade.

We we have another large dining table to manufacture in a few weeks, 8/4 mahogany top close to 10’ long. I’ll take some pics then and post.

For 99% of what we cut that isn’t melamine, I use the combination blade, which is the exact same blade I use on my 14” Omga radial arm saw for cross cutting/length cutting.

i can hand sand the saw marks easily. We still edge sand most manageable pieces but if need beam ROS easily takes the saw marks out.

Having to joint, or effectively joint on the shaper seems like a waste of time to me. I wanted to try a few Leuco blades, but I have too many already and I don’t think anything will beat the Kanefusa.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm playing hooky from work tomorrow, (root canal on a cracked tooth at 7am, if I go to work that cranky everyone will be fired), but might go on Saturday to clean since the weather is going to be very nice. I'll try and take pictures of the cuts coming off of everything I can with some different blades. The only hardwood blade I've got for the Tanne is an 16" butcher blade, it's a chainsaw. I can't remember, but I think it's a 12 tooth. lol

[Martin Wasner]

I saw your post about those. I might try one in the jump saw. I got two blades with it, and I'm not impressed with either one.

[Warren Lake]

is there a specific thing like you are cutting your kitchen doors to size and dont want to see marks on the edges? or all stuff. Ive always cleaned my edges on the edge sander or final fit with it. Big stuff random then hand straight.

Andrew what are the models of those blades machinery show is in a few weeks have talked to Akhurst guy I spoke with didnt know other than they have them. Id like to go in with some model numbers thanks

[Andrew J. Coholic]

is there a specific thing like you are cutting your kitchen doors to size and dont want to see marks on the edges? or all stuff. Ive always cleaned my edges on the edge sander or final fit with it. Big stuff random then hand straight.

Andrew what are the models of those blades machinery show is in a few weeks have talked to Akhurst guy I spoke with didnt know other than they have them. Id like to go in with some model numbers thanks

Deal with Nap Gladu (the old BC Saw & Tool in Toronto). That’s where I got most of them. Headed shortly out of town to pick up a new shop delivery van. I should be back to work later this afternoon. I’ll take some model numbers down.

[Justin Ludwig]

I don't have near the experience with varying blades as most of you nor the high end equipment. All my blades are from Carbide Processors. My panel saw uses a 250mm 30mm bore, 60tooth TCG for solid surface or melamine and can be used on plywood with very little tearout - that's single pass and no scoring blade. For main use on ply with the VPS I use a 10" 30mm bore, 80tooth HiATB - with equal results.

PM2000 TS uses a 30tooth GLR for hardwood and 80tooth HiATB for plywood. I can take hardwood straight off the saw and glue up. Are there saw marks? Yes, in everything. But the saw marks are so minimal it would be asinine to complain or sand, unless that edge will be finished/exposed.

RAS and chop saw both use 12" 100tooth -6hook. Great cuts, minimal tearout.

All this to say: for hardwoods - material prep and saw set up determines whether or not I get the best cuts with less tool mark. Only problems I have with plywood is "springing" that will occasionally cause burning on the edge. Also keeping the pitch cleaned off of teeth makes a big difference. I have zero expectation of my blades to give me perfect, tool-mark-free cuts.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

These are the blades I use:

Kanefusa board pro 70 tooth combination: 14”x.157”x70(H14)xA-15
Kanefusa board pro 24 tooth rip: 14”x.170”x24xB
Kanefusa board pro 100 tooth ATB: 14”x.150”x100xC-BC
Kanefusa board pro 72 tooth TCG: 300mmODx3.2mm kerf x 2.2mm plate (12” blade)

Those are the blades I use on my Griggio panel saw.

On the 10” table saw (Sawstop 5hp ICS) I recently bought a 24 tooth ripping blade (been on the saw for the past two weeks, great blade) its a 255mmx3.00mmx5/8” blade. I also have a TCG 80 tooth blade I haven’t had a chance to try yet. But based on the rest of the Kanefusa blades I have been using for the past 6 1/2 years at work, I would say its going to be a good one. I think I have 11 of them Ive been using now.

[Darcy Warner]

I edge glue right off the 404 mattison.

I hardly use a table saw anymore.

My whitney left an almost flawless cut.

My greenlee is at the motor shop, it can't cut 1" poplar without stalling anymore.

[David Kumm]

I can't speak to the Kanefusa but I have a bunch of saws of different sizes and arbors, 7.25-18" in diameter. Many have been bought used as long as they are industrial with lots of carbide remaining. Royce Ayr, Nap Gladu, Leitz, FS Tool, Forrest, etc. I send them all to either Leitz or Gladu sharpening service and when they are done I can't tell which brand is better. That leads me to believe that if you start with a good blade with a flat plate, and heavy carbide, that the sharpener may be more important than the blade. Some day I'll have to try a Kanefusa and compare. Dave

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I can't speak to the Kanefusa but I have a bunch of saws of different sizes and arbors, 7.25-18" in diameter. Many have been bought used as long as they are industrial with lots of carbide remaining. Royce Ayr, Nap Gladu, Leitz, FS Tool, Forrest, etc. I send them all to either Leitz or Gladu sharpening service and when they are done I can't tell which brand is better. That leads me to believe that if you start with a good blade with a flat plate, and heavy carbide, that the sharpener may be more important than the blade. Some day I'll have to try a Kanefusa and compare. Dave


Dave, I have several blades from many of the same manufacturers as well. We’ve been dealing with FS since I was a young teenager (I’m 47 now) and Royce, Gladu etc.

Its funny, I cant say why... and I have nothing to benefit from it - but I swear the Kanefusa just cuts better. I ordered 4 blades from ROyce last year - getting the exact diameter, plate, tooth geometry and count, as the Kanefusa’s I was using. I have used them daily for the past year and a bit side by side. I just had a talk with my Royce salesman.. telling him the blades just don’t cut quite as nice, or last quite as long between sharpening. I don’t think its in my head. I have a far easier time sourcing blades from FS, ROyce and Gladu, as they are all here in Ontario where I live and stock their own blades.

Weird stuff. I’m not a tooling expert but for a small shop, we cut a lot of stock up in a year, and I know what works best for us. It was actually the guy who used to work for me, that bought my old shop that turned me onto the Kanefusa.

[Warren Lake]

I have a number of brands and years back when talking to BC i had to split a run of boxes they told me about the Kanafusa. When I finally go there for some knives I wanted ground it had been bought out and I wanted to talk to the grinder was told I cant and they send stuff to Montreal. I went from there to Taurus Craco. Owner held the door open for me he was just walking in, told him my storey took me out back to meet the grinder and he showed me the Weinig and talked to me for a bit and i left my stuff with him. Never went back to BC for the blades. Maybe I just got them at a bad time.

I agree on the sharpening thing, then some are never as good as new, stuff sharpened by Royce the last times came back with different tip shapes which is fine, ones ive used so far work great. One place I went to years back ground really coarse and told me the finer grit sizes will never be as sharp. I went there that one time and that was it.

Thanks Andrew for posting those. I have a gaggle of different blades here Royce and others that I got ahead of time and now have a saw they fit so ill be able to do some comparing as well.

[David Kumm]

Andrew, I know what you mean about some tooling just feeling right. Trying a Kanefusa might be an excuse for another old saw. Dave

[peter gagliardi]

I probably have 60-80 different blades in the shop, all different makers- most from auction lots. Anyway, the noise level, and the feed pressure are definitely lower with the Kanefusa. You don't need a lot of experience to experience this. The cut quality is directly reflected on the stock.
Darcy, when I picked up that Greenlee, the previous owner had it rewound, but never run it. I never ran it. Surprised, mabe it was a "rustoleum rebuild"

[Darcy Warner]

I probably have 60-80 different blades in the shop, all different makers- most from auction lots. Anyway, the noise level, and the feed pressure are definitely lower with the Kanefusa. You don't need a lot of experience to experience this. The cut quality is directly reflected on the stock.
Darcy, when I picked up that Greenlee, the previous owner had it rewound, but never run it. I never ran it. Surprised, mabe it was a "rustoleum rebuild"

I don't know, it's always seemed under powered, never used it too much, but in the last year it has just sat because of this issue. I tried wiring it delta, Wye, no difference. I am hoping that the leads were numbered wrong or something. It looked like it had had motor work done to it, those weren't 1928 motor leads.

I had my 12 year old take the motor out for me, she had fun figuring it out.

[peter gagliardi]

It sounds like mislabeled leads. Is this the " famous 12 lead motor" ?

[Darcy Warner]

It sounds like mislabeled leads. Is this the " famous 12 lead motor" ?

I think was a different one. Lol.

Let my motor shop guys sort it out.

They just rewound a 6.6hp fimec motor out of a scmi.
600 bucks. These metric frame motors suck. 3rd fimec motor that was junk in the last year.

[Martin Wasner]

I think was a different one. Lol.

Let my motor shop guys sort it out.

They just rewound a 6.6hp fimec motor out of a scmi.
600 bucks. These metric frame motors suck. 3rd fimec motor that was junk in the last year.

That's what happens when you pack a whole bunch of sparks in a tiny tube.
I don't understand their obsession with using the smallest case possible.

[Darcy Warner]

That's what happens when you pack a whole bunch of sparks in a tiny tube.
I don't understand their obsession with using the smallest case possible.

It was almost 100 buck less than a new one, with no clue on shipping time or freight costs from the scm group. I would rather be forced into the same room with my ex vs. Having to call the SCM group.

[David Kumm]

I factor in a rewind into any used Euro machine I buy. Small frame metric motors are crap. It allows the machines to use lighter internals which is another reason I don't like them. Dave

[glenn bradley]

I usually skip this topic since it frequently boils down to machine setup, cutter quality and method. I just made a rip cut in pecan that had to be pretty close to the finished dimension. It came out pretty well so I thought I'd share.

370151

When doing this I use a feather board to handle the pressure against the fence and push blocks to control the smoothness of the feed. At any rate, this is with a 24 tooth, TCG, 10" blade from Carbide Processors.

[Bradley Potts]

Yep, Glenn you are on the money.

It's probably a good idea to dial this all back to the fundamentals. If we're getting saw marks, that simply indicates there is movement somewhere between the workpiece and the cutter during the cutting operation. These are our problem keywords: A) movement, B) cutter, C) workpiece. SOLUTION: Eliminate movement between the cutter and the workpiece!

I'm an old 'arn kinda guy, and more specifically, I chucked my table saw and now have 2 radial arm saws that handle all my tasks pretty much flawlessly: a Delta 30C and a 40C. Both of these machines required careful setup and tuning, but now churn out glue-line cuts on demand and without changing blades. What I've found is that my newer Delta RAS-12 (33-890)(now sold off) had too much runout on the shaft and general vibration in the whole assembly to give me cut quality anywhere near what the other 2 saws produce. Bottom line is TUNE YOUR TOOL to 50% (1/2) of the tolerance you want, otherwise it cannot possibly deliver on your expectations.

Glue-line cuts? Yes, but only as Glenn offered, which is via the use of featherboards, which control the motion of the workpiece while it engages the cutters.

Speaking of motion, blade stabilization is a big deal: Yes, blade stabilizers help, but matching machine power and blade size to the material hardness and thickness really matters. Thin sheet goods do not need and should not be cut with a gi-normous timber cutting blades, because the tip speed of the huge blades is just too high and the very large diameter ensures that much more of the blade plate is in contact with the wood than a smaller diameter plate will offer, so that the cutting friction will soften the glues and wood resins and cause stiction of the blade, which then works against the very heavy duty power that big industrial machines put out, and that means the exposed and unsupported blade plate can and will deform, which induces lateral blade motion and those nasty tooth marks. Less is more.

To whit, I routinely get glueline cuts with my Makita track saw outfitted with a stock blade. This is a $500 setup, and clearly the $30K investment isn't helping the cut quality, so we need to see the obvious differences: A) The track saw has a tiny blade diameter and therefore the minimal surface area imparting motion into the workpiece (vibrations); B) Tip speed is about as low as we can get, and therefore will generate the lowest friction; C) The smaller diameter blade produces a shorter unsupported lever arm between the shaft and the cutters, so will thus remain flatter during cutting action, which means that the cutter edges will not only move far less out of plane, but also their out-of-plane excursions will be very constrained (attenuated) and that means they will be vibrating at a higher frequency with less amplitude -- the finer vibrations will be harder to see; D) the track saw naturally holds the workpiece down tight to the supporting surface, so there will be much less vibration induced by workpiece chatter (up and down vibrations); and E) the track saw's track has a splinter-free rubber strip that further prevents the surface fibers from getting hung up on the blade and becoming torn out. It's all about LOCKING DOWN the cutting operation in every way possible.

[Derek Cohen]

Instead of hijacking another thread...

Can somebody show me a picture of a saw cut with no marks?

I have four tablesaws, a $30k panel saw, and a $25k rip saw. All of them leave varying levels of marks behind. I see this topic come up once in a while, and either I have really low expectations, I'm pushing stuff too hard, or.... what.

I've got chop boxes that will cut across the grain pretty flawlessly, but there's still saw marks. But with the grain, I don't have anything I'd prefer to go straight to an orbital with.

In the process of making up the last of the frame-and-panels for a kitchen makeover. The following are Hard Maple frames ripped on a K3 with a 12" Leuco 24 tpi blade.

The top is off the jointer (spiral A3-31), and the lower piece is off the saw ...

https://s19.postimg.org/intg4ckqr/image.jpg

There are a few teeth marks (see far left), but it is otherwise pretty clear.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Darcy Warner]

I probably have 60-80 different blades in the shop, all different makers- most from auction lots. Anyway, the noise level, and the feed pressure are definitely lower with the Kanefusa. You don't need a lot of experience to experience this. The cut quality is directly reflected on the stock.
Darcy, when I picked up that Greenlee, the previous owner had it rewound, but never run it. I never ran it. Surprised, mabe it was a "rustoleum rebuild"

Finally got the motor back from my motor shop.

It was rewound, it is dual voltage, the leads were marked right. It's dual voltage 480 and 700v.

I said I never heard of that, they said that they have seen a few others done like that.

So I guess I better set everything up for 480v low voltage. Lol

[peter gagliardi]

First I have heard of 700v myself. That explains the low power for sure.

[Jim Becker]

Regardless of what machine cuts the edge, there will always be "some" marking. A high-quality saw blade that's sharp and a cut with the material clamped to a moving table on the saw will be "really good" and likely able to be refined easily with just sanding. An edge off of the jointer may also be "really good", but the rotation of the cutter head (even with a spiral cutter) will still leave some barely perceptible scalloping that can usually be sanded away. The only "nearly perfect" edge is going to come from a remarkably sharp hand plane used by a skilled worker. Nature of the beast... :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, when I use a feeder on the saw the cuts are perfect, when I hand feed, not so much.

It makes me think that consistency is more important than the blade or machine.

I'm using a 24 tooth FS tools blade on a Hammer B3..................Rod.

[Jim Becker]

It makes me think that consistency is more important than the blade or machine.



Absolutely true. With that material clamped down on the wagon, even a "construction grade" blade will give a reasonably good cut (except on the exit side unless you run a scoring blade in front of it) since the material doesn't waver at all through the entire cut. Perfect like glass? No. But pretty darn good. The same principle applies to track saws since they bring more consistency to the cut...although there's more "wiggle room" (literally) if one isn't careful as compared to material clamped to a moving table.

[Tom Walz]

Check your side clearance variance.
Side clearance - how far the edge of the tooth sticks our from the steel saw body.
Obviously every tooth should stick out the same amount. Not always true. Sometimes you will see differences as great as 0.010".
Good blades now run + / - 0.0005"
The fully automatic, high precision grinders can do it. They have to be maintained and programmed properly.
e.g. The tooth immediately behind the expansion slot has to ground up instead of down. When you grind up you have to reverse the wheel direction.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-iba-1&hsimp=yhs-1&hspart=iba&p=youtube+checking+side+clearance+saw+blades#id=1&vid=5f60305ffdd092d89a357f385a16c63c&action=click