Objectifying edge quality

[David Ragan]

How do you all gage sharpness?

I have a couple of micro cameras, but setting all that up is a hassle.

There is the thread method by Steve Elliott or Brent Beach, I forget which.

Last wkd, I had some LV plate w 3M film, did some free hand swipes on a plane, and had good results-satisfied.

But, can't help thinking, is there a more objective way besides the above, or hair shave, bouncing light, etc?

My problem is that shop time is only a few hours on a weekend, so doing a lot of comparison plane/chiseling, and trying to remember what edge held better w which medium is really hard.

Of course, nowadays, my shop has all varieties of media, and I'd like to know how you all judge between your different choices. Can you remember edge performance like that?

Thanks, D

[bridger berdel]

one should always endeavor to keep ones edges as sharp as possible, but no sharper.


does it cut? it's sharp.
how sharp is possible? that depends on a bunch of factors. I'm sure that this thread will devolve to examine them in depth.


suffice it to say if the tool performs as intended and produces a result that meets requirements it's sharp enough. sharpening beyond that is a waste of your limited shop time.

pictures of edges do not cut wood.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

My problem is that shop time is only a few hours on a weekend, so doing a lot of comparison plane/chiseling, and trying to remember what edge held better w which medium is really hard.


The only judging that matters is whether it cuts wood the way you need it to in order to accomplish whatever you are trying to do.

There are about three million ways to get a blade acceptably sharp. There is probably a thread on each of them somewhere on this forum. If you have limited shop time, you should avoid wasting it on trying different methods. Pick one and stick with it. If your edge is not good enough to do what you want to do, don’t assume you need a different jig or magic stone or whatever. Just assume you need more practice.

[Rick Malakoff]

one should always endeavor to keep ones edges as sharp as possible, but no sharper.


does it cut? it's sharp.
how sharp is possible? that depends on a bunch of factors. I'm sure that this thread will devolve to examine them in depth.


suffice it to say if the tool performs as intended and produces a result that meets requirements it's sharp enough. sharpening beyond that is a waste of your limited shop time.

pictures of edges do not cut wood.

I'M from this school, but that's just my 2 cents!
Rick

[Prashun Patel]

I feel the edge with my thumb. With enough practice I found I can recognize when I have done a good enough job.

Every so often I look at the edge with a loupe to find nicks that require grinding.

[Patrick Chase]

There is the thread method by Steve Elliott or Brent Beach, I forget which.


http://bladetest.infillplane.com/html/testing_sharpness.html

[Robert Hazelwood]

I think the short answer is no. The most practical way is to attempt a task that requires a sharp blade. Taking a clean continuous end-grain shaving is a good benchmark. It's not terribly objective since the material properties of the wood play a large role, as do technique and equipment, but unless you are trying to build a scientific database or something I think that's irrelevant. As a woodworker you will have to manage all of those variables anyways. Of course there are other tests like cutting paper, shaving arm hair, severing a hanging hair.

Experience will help, and over time the tendency is for edges to become sharper- your standards will get higher. Perhaps you can help the process along by keeping a certain piece of wood around for taking test cuts. Being the same piece of wood, you can gauge your relative sharpness to previous attempts. But mostly, just do work and observe how the cut feels, and how the tools leaves the surface.

Something I have always done is touch the edge with my fingers after sharpening. With some experience I can tell instantly how good the edge is, if there's still a burr or wear bevel, etc, without having to shave arm hairs or test anything. If it doesn't feel right I go back to the stones until it does.

[Jim Koepke]

one should always endeavor to keep ones edges as sharp as possible, but no sharper.

Interesting quip, but not one to garner my agreement. My sharpening is mostly to my perceived level of need. My axe doesn't need to be as sharp as my plane blades. My mortise chisel doesn't need to be as sharp as my paring chisel.

While shooting some end grain a few days ago there were lines across the end of the piece being worked. This is an indication of there being some nicks in the blade. There was no need for fancy camera equipment to see the result of the nick. When the blade was removed and held under a lamp is was easy to see starburst reflections along the edge where the nicks occurred.

Testing sharpness can be done many ways without fancy equipment. Mostly it involves experience in judgement.

Paper Test:

This is taking a piece of ordinary paper and pushing the blade into it. A sharp blade can go straight into the paper. If the blade is close to being 'sharp' it can cut the paper by moving the blade laterally across its edge. As you get better at sharpening you will find things like receipt paper needing a sharper edge to penetrate in a straight push.

End Grain Test:

Taking a thin shaving when paring end grain is an important ability when cutting dovetails, tenons and other joinery. Using a soft wood like pine is a good test. If the blade isn't sharp it will push and separate the fibers and it will be clearly visible. As stated above, little nicks in the blade will leave visible marks on the end grain. More than a test, this is also good practice at paring.

Finger Nail Test:

A sharp blade will stick with a very light touch on one's finger nail. How low of an angle can be used and still have it stick is a way to determine sharpness. Some folks will slide the end of their finger nail to check for burrs or nicks. This kind of makes me a bit squeamish. If you bite your nails, it may be best to not attempt this method.

Arm Hair test:

This is testing the shaving ability of an edge. There are a few different levels of sharpness that can be detected with this test. This test can be dangerous if one is not familiar with shaving with a straight razor or has difficulty controlling the edge of the tool being tested.

If one can feel hair being pulled, there are still some nicks or burrs on the edge.

If it feels like it is pushing the hairs over but a few cut hairs remain on the edge, then the blade is starting to enter the realm of sharp.

If the blade is clearly removing hair but leaving a few behind, it is pretty sharp and would likely be able to take on many normal tasks.

If it feels like nothing is happening but a pile of hair is on the blade and a clean swath is in its wake, then the blade is sharp enough for wood working. At least none of my edges that have done this have had any problems with any woodworking tasks of mine.

Razor users would want sharper than this. They move to the hanging hair test. In this test the blade is touched to a hanging hair and the hair should separate by its own weight on the blade, or something like that.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

On sharpening media, use what you have. Unless you have poor quality sharpening equipment it isn't keeping you from getting to sharp.

In Atlanta you may not have the freezing problem my shop has. This has me using water stones in warm weather and oilstones during the freezing months. Sometimes the oilstones get used when it is warm.

jtk

[Hasin Haroon]

I just check the edge on my finger nail. If it sticks, it's good. If it skates, or even almost skates, not good enough.

That said, for my jack plane, I'll sharpen upto my 1200 grit diamond plate and follow with stropping. Almost everything else gets sharpened up to 8000 grit on my ceramic stones and then stropped.

[James Waldron]

How do you all gage sharpness?

I have a couple of micro cameras, but setting all that up is a hassle.

There is the thread method by Steve Elliott or Brent Beach, I forget which.

Last wkd, I had some LV plate w 3M film, did some free hand swipes on a plane, and had good results-satisfied.

But, can't help thinking, is there a more objective way besides the above, or hair shave, bouncing light, etc?

My problem is that shop time is only a few hours on a weekend, so doing a lot of comparison plane/chiseling, and trying to remember what edge held better w which medium is really hard.

Of course, nowadays, my shop has all varieties of media, and I'd like to know how you all judge between your different choices. Can you remember edge performance like that?

Thanks, D

If you're going to compare methods, you should keep a journal. Then you look up your results and don't have to remember them. Whatever method you settle on, sharp is as sharp does, as all the above posts advise. Experience often contributes to wisdom. You should try it, but take notes along the way.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?254656-A-sharpening-idea-I-ve-never-heard-of

And there you will see mention of this: http://www.edgeonup.com/

Yes indeed, a real life, mostly affordable sharpness Tester. The engineer in me wants one. The broke person with high dental bills and a new car to pay for says no. But really, $100 on amazon for one of the models.

[Patrick Chase]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?254656-A-sharpening-idea-I-ve-never-heard-of

And there you will see mention of this: http://www.edgeonup.com/

Yes indeed, a real life, mostly affordable sharpness Tester. The engineer in me wants one. The broke person with high dental bills and a new car to pay for says no. But really, $100 on amazon for one of the models.

You wouldn't want the $100 model to answer this sort of question.

The EdgeOnUp testers use the same method as Steve Elliott, meaning that they measure the force required to cut a standardized piece of synthetic thread. The "tester" is nothing more than a peak-reading scale with a thread-holding fixture on top. The $100 model has a precision of 25 g, but truly sharp edges can cut such thread at much less than 100 g, per EdgeOnUp's documentation (and confirmed by Steve's work).

You'd want the $150 version with 5 g. resolution.

[bridger berdel]

one should always endeavor to keep ones edges as sharp as possible, but no sharper.






Interesting quip, but not one to garner my agreement. My sharpening is mostly to my perceived level of need. My axe doesn't need to be as sharp as my plane blades. My mortise chisel doesn't need to be as sharp as my paring chisel.

jtk



fair enough. however, "as sharp as possible" must take into consideration the job at hand. "sharp" with regards to an axe is completely different from "sharp" as regards a straight razor. if you doubt this hone an axe until it will shave. then use it to cut down a tree.

[Patrick Chase]

This (https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-546-117-Standard-Graduation-0-15-1-5N/dp/B003U9W1GO) plus some rayon thread would probably get the job done about as well as the $150 EdgeOnUp machine. Its precision is 0.05 N = 5 g. As an added bonus you can actually use it as a tension gauge!

Here are a couple higher-end options that are more precise and more useful for other stuff (wider measurement range):

https://www.amazon.com/Nextech-DFS50-Digital-Back-Lit-Enclosures/dp/B0135PN38C/ref=pd_sim_328_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0135PN38C&pd_rd_r=TEZBYBH9B2A4WY4S8EJM&pd_rd_w=QlQ2m&pd_rd_wg=9DKwO&psc=1&refRID=TEZBYBH9B2A4WY4S8EJM
https://www.amazon.com/HF-50-Digital-Gauge-Force-HF-50N/dp/B00L5UKSCY/ref=pd_sim_469_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00L5UKSCY&pd_rd_r=A3HSZ98V6ARXFKWT26MP&pd_rd_w=306eL&pd_rd_wg=Y0UoX&psc=1&refRID=A3HSZ98V6ARXFKWT26MP&dpID=41t1tX0vRDL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=detail

[Stanley Covington]

one should always endeavor to keep ones edges as sharp as possible, but no sharper.

Absolute genius. I need to have these words engraved on a brass plaque and mount it over my little shops door. Seriously.

I also like what James wrote: "Sharp is as sharp does." That summarizes the law and the prophets.

Sharpness is very like a Zen koan. Something very close to nothing.

The test I use is quick and subjective, but reliable. Similar to Prashun's method, I cut the callous on the side of my left index finger just a tiny bit. Not enough to touch any nerves or cause leakage, but enough tell without a doubt how well the blade cuts comparatively.

I hold the blade in my right hand and choke up on it, and rest the blade on my left index finger while moving the callous lightly against the blade. This way the blade is tightly controlled and there is no risk of cutting too deeply.

The fingernail check is almost, but not quite, as informative. In my experience.

[Todd Stock]

Is the tool cutting well? Work. Not cutting well? Sharpen.

That's about all the 'contemplation of the infinite' I have time for these days ;-)

[David Ragan]

The feeling w the fingerpad sounds like a great way-I shall try that.

There are lots of other variables, right?

How well does the edge hold up, what about microfractures, angle of bevel, etc.

David W talks about A2 doing better w a microbevel on account of microfracture.

All my stuff is A2-right now, that is good.

My thinking in the past was that a picture showing less grooves in the edge, and less 'trash' there would be better. To a point, yes.

When I did freehand, and put a camera on it, all my grooves were parallel to the edge. I am not sure if that is an advantage or not

So, now, in the rabbit hole of sharpness, have temporarily gone back to jigs.

Plus, I discovered last weekend that my plane blades can be swiped/honed w/o removing the chipbreaker-Excellent.

Do some of you just keep honing that way, only breaking it down for a formal session when necessary (it becomes obvious the edge geometry is fouled)?

And, as tempting as it is to have some cool equipment around, am currently resisting spending more money; the force gages look great. The minimum resolution on the HF-50N is 0.45g ($148). I think after a while I would have buyers remorse - I hate that.

Have some diamond submicron sheets coming in to use w the other LV 0.5 micron that I started w last weekend.

I don't feel like delving into the O1 and PMV11 rabbit hole.

We are talking about planes and would here.

You know, I guess this entire side track allows me to put off make those stopped dadoes in the near-finished Cherry project.

Thanks guys, I am reading (more than once) and digesting all your input

[Prashun Patel]

If I strop dry I may not remove the breaker. But if I take it to a water stone I find it is easy to get rust if the blade is not dried properly. Disassembling the blade helps the drying.

[Brian Holcombe]

The most important things are to have good geometry and remove the burr entirely. I do this by having a flat back and bevel and maintaining them by removing the wear every time I sharpen.

[William Fretwell]

The true gauge of sharpness is how much work you get done between sharpening's. This is the same as sharp enough but no sharper as the too sharp is wasted on the first cut. Finish planing gives less work between sharpening's, simple really!

[David Ragan]

If I strop dry I may not remove the breaker. But if I take it to a water stone I find it is easy to get rust if the blade is not dried properly. Disassembling the blade helps the drying.

Thanks for that reminder. Those LV blade screwdrivers do a great job of loosening.



The most important things are to have good geometry and remove the burr entirely. I do this by having a flat back and bevel and maintaining them by removing the wear every time I sharpen.

How wide a strip are we talking about w the wear bevel? Not questioning it's importance to remove.....just never considered it.



The true gauge of sharpness is how much work you get done between sharpening's. This is the same as sharp enough but no sharper as the too sharp is wasted on the first cut. Finish planing gives less work between sharpening's, simple really!

This is precisely what is in the back on my mind. Once you have a proper bevel, or microbevel, and the grooves/striations in blade from the abrasive are acceptably small......all those obsession is gone after a couple of strokes?

[Robert Hazelwood]

The wear bevel is very small. I haven't measured but perhaps a thou or two? Maybe smaller than that. You can see it as a strip on the back of the blade, right at the edge. You just keep working the bevel until it is gone. It's usually not too much work unless the blade is pretty far gone. The important point is to realize that you can raise a burr from working on the bevel side without having completely removed the wear bevel. Typical sharpening advice would have you stop once you raise the burr, but you should check if the wear bevel remains. If it does then keep working.

You can get a decent edge without totally removing the wear bevel, but the edge quality and endurance seem significantly improved if you do. Within certain limits, I would say it has a bigger effect than the typical sharpening obsessions like grit size, type of stone, number of microbevels, etc.

[Jim Koepke]

The wear bevel is very small. I haven't measured but perhaps a thou or two? Maybe smaller than that. You can see it as a strip on the back of the blade, right at the edge. You just keep working the bevel until it is gone. It's usually not too much work unless the blade is pretty far gone. The important point is to realize that you can raise a burr from working on the bevel side without having completely removed the wear bevel. Typical sharpening advice would have you stop once you raise the burr, but you should check if the wear bevel remains. If it does then keep working.

You can get a decent edge without totally removing the wear bevel, but the edge quality and endurance seem significantly improved if you do. Within certain limits, I would say it has a bigger effect than the typical sharpening obsessions like grit size, type of stone, number of microbevels, etc.

+1 on this. To me not removing the wear bevel means the job isn't finished. The wear bevel may seem akin to the "ruler trick" to some when sharpening a blade, it isn't. It is metal deformed by wear, not by strategy.

jtk

[David Ragan]

The wear bevel is very small. I haven't measured but perhaps a thou or two? Maybe smaller than that. You can see it as a strip on the back of the blade, right at the edge. You just keep working the bevel until it is gone. It's usually not too much work unless the blade is pretty far gone. The important point is to realize that you can raise a burr from working on the bevel side without having completely removed the wear bevel. Typical sharpening advice would have you stop once you raise the burr, but you should check if the wear bevel remains. If it does then keep working.

You can get a decent edge without totally removing the wear bevel, but the edge quality and endurance seem significantly improved if you do. Within certain limits, I would say it has a bigger effect than the typical sharpening obsessions like grit size, type of stone, number of microbevels, etc.


+1 on this. To me not removing the wear bevel means the job isn't finished. The wear bevel may seem akin to the "ruler trick" to some when sharpening a blade, it isn't. It is metal deformed by wear, not by strategy.

jtk

This is most excellent getting down to what I had not appreciated.

So, the 0.001" wear bevel that might be visible via close inspection (w magnification)......and, I am not being sarcastic here.........I will try some swiping the back of the blade on honing media, and just look at it again to be sure the wear bevel is gone? that simple?

[Robert Hazelwood]

This is most excellent getting down to what I had not appreciated.

So, the 0.001" wear bevel that might be visible via close inspection (w magnification)......and, I am not being sarcastic here.........I will try some swiping the back of the blade on honing media, and just look at it again to be sure the wear bevel is gone? that simple?

I don't think you need magnification. Maybe reading glasses if your eyes aren't so good. Try using a plane until it won't take a good shaving anymore, then remove the blade and chipbreaker and see if you can find the wear bevel. It should be readily visible, right at the very edge.

You can remove the wear bevel by working the back, but it makes more sense to me to work it from the bevel side. I don't like to do anything to the backs except work them on the finishing stone to remove the burr. You would probably have to go to a coarser stone to remove the wear bevel by working the back, then polish that back out on the finishing stone. Instead, you can work the bevel on your coarse stone, until the edge has moved back far enough that the wear bevel is gone. In other words you are making the blade a tiny bit shorter, until the new edge intersects the unworn portion of the back. Then just refine the scratch pattern to your liking and remove the burr.

[David Ragan]

You can remove the wear bevel by working the back, but it makes more sense to me to work it from the bevel side.

This is exactly what occurred to me after the response.

Makes complete sense.

Not much is said about the wear bevel cause we remove them in the normal course of sharpening usually.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Not much is said about the wear bevel cause we remove them in the normal course of sharpening usually.

Ideally, yes. But if you find yourself wondering why the edge you just sharpened doesn't feel quite as sharp as it should, or doesn't last as long as you expect, this is a likely culprit.

By the way, and getting back to the original intent of this thread, I like what Stanley posted about testing the edge against the fingertip callouses. It's what I do and you can really tell a lot from it. It just takes repetition and experience to develop the feel.

[Doug Hepler]

Andrew

Thanks for this tip. I had not heard of edgeonup. I had seen Steve Ellis thread test, which is the basis of edgeonup. I got inspired and today I made a thread tester out of sewing thread and a piece of UHMW plastic. I "calibrated" it by finding a weight for the thread that would almost but not quite allow the thread to flex without being cut by a new single-edge razor blade. Maybe you can satisfy your engineering impulses by making one for yourself. If you do, let me know how you make out.

I will run out of arm hair or calluses long before I run out of thread.

Doug

[Patrick Chase]

Andrew

Thanks for this tip. I had not heard of edgeonup. I had seen Steve Ellis thread test, which is the basis of edgeonup. I got inspired and today I made a thread tester out of sewing thread and a piece of UHMW plastic. I "calibrated" it by finding a weight for the thread that would almost but not quite allow the thread to flex without being cut by a new single-edge razor blade. Maybe you can satisfy your engineering impulses by making one for yourself. If you do, let me know how you make out.

I will run out of arm hair or calluses long before I run out of thread.

Doug

You made yourself a tension scale out of a cantilever beam. The only thing to be careful of there is to increase pressure slowly, as (obviously) it isn't peak-reading the way the EdgeOnUp device or a commercial tension gauge would be.

[Doug Hepler]

Patrick,

It is very crude, but it distinguishes very clearly between an almost sharp edge and a sharp enough edge. For purposes of this project, sharp enough means taking an intact (albeit small) shaving off pine end grain. Yes, I push slowly because I want to see how much deflection I get before the thread breaks. Its main deficiency is not the lack of a peak reading, it's the need for me to hold the blade steady so that I don't slice. This is great fun to think about, but so far it won't replace the copy paper test. And, like Andrew, I will try to resist another $150 toy.

What I really want, BTW, is a way to quantify how much steel worn abrasive film can remove ;)

Doug

[Steve Kang]

For me it's electrostatic shavings, the type that stick to you straight out of the plane. There's something neat about cutting so fine one force of physics takes over for another.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick,

It is very crude, but it distinguishes very clearly between an almost sharp edge and a sharp enough edge. For purposes of this project, sharp enough means taking an intact (albeit small) shaving off pine end grain. Yes, I push slowly because I want to see how much deflection I get before the thread breaks. Its main deficiency is not the lack of a peak reading, it's the need for me to hold the blade steady so that I don't slice. This is great fun to think about, but so far it won't replace the copy paper test. And, like Andrew, I will try to resist another $150 toy.

What I really want, BTW, is a way to quantify how much steel worn abrasive film can remove ;)

Doug

Yeah, your implied point that one can easily go overboard with this stuff is right on the money. If I were going to measure sharpness (I probably won't) I'd go with something like the $80 peak-reading Mitutoyo tension gauge that I linked in an earlier post. It's about as precise as the EdgeOnUp, and it actually has other useful applications. As you say you have to be careful not to slice, but that's an easily engineerable problem (I can think of a couple ways to fixture the tool and/or the thread to prevent it).

[Patrick Chase]

For me it's electrostatic shavings, the type that stick to you straight out of the plane. There's something neat about cutting so fine one force of physics takes over for another.

So fundamentally pointless, though. At <1 mil per shaving you can spend all day being mesmerized without ever making notable progress towards building something out of wood.

[Jim Koepke]

For me it's electrostatic shavings, the type that stick to you straight out of the plane. There's something neat about cutting so fine one force of physics takes over for another.

For me sharp is when only one row of angles are able to dance on the edge. When it gets a bit dull they can dance in two rows or more.

jtk

[ken hatch]

For me sharp is when only one row of angles are able to dance on the edge. When it gets a bit dull they can dance in two rows or more.

jtk

Jim,

It has been too many years but I'm Sure Patrick can correct me the number you are looking for is 6.02X10 to the 23 power.. My guess on a dull iron it would be X2

ken

P.S. If it feels sharp and looks sharp it is sharp

[David Ragan]

As an aside: one thing about folks who make shavings on YouTube (I know, I know...), is that they all hold up calipers and say "well...that is....0.001"...."

I just don't believe it. My skills arent that great, but my equipment is-and a strict one thou shaving is exceedingly thin-my planes are never set up for than thin for actual work.

I havent seen them "Gee, that only 3 thou, let me see about an adjustment" it's always Bam---one thou.

And, for the Mitutoyo gage, how do you translate 0.15N into Grams for resolution (just in case I need another toy)?

[Patrick Chase]

Jim,

It has been too many years but I'm Sure Patrick can correct me the number you are looking for is 6.02X10 to the 23 power.. My guess on a dull iron it would be X2

ken

P.S. If it feels sharp and looks sharp it is sharp

6.022 * 10^23, yes. By my time in high school they taught Avogadro's number to *four* significant digits :-).

[Patrick Chase]

As an aside: one thing about folks who make shavings on YouTube (I know, I know...), is that they all hold up calipers and say "well...that is....0.001"...."

I just don't believe it. My skills arent that great, but my equipment is-and a strict one thou shaving is exceedingly thin-my planes are never set up for than thin for actual work.

I havent seen them "Gee, that only 3 thou, let me see about an adjustment" it's always Bam---one thou.

It's called "editing" :-).



And, for the Mitutoyo gage, how do you translate 0.15N into Grams for resolution (just in case I need another toy)?

The one I linked has 0.05N resolution (0.15 is the bottom of the range, not the precision).

On Earth 9.81 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_of_Earth) N = 1000 grams force, so 0.05N = 1000*0.05/9.81 g = 5.1 g. Same resolution as the $150 EdgeOnUp.

[David Ragan]

Right.

Thanks.

[Mike Holbrook]

I use the paper test Jim Koepke mentioned early on. One can certainly argue that paper comes in all sorts of thicknesses/sriffnesses....but then so do fingernails, end grain, hair....I find that I learn to feel how a sharp blade, pushed straight into a piece of paper, should feel as it cuts, which reduces my reliance on the kind of paper. Paper is just about always around. With my thin skin, I am not a fan of skin tests.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andrew

Thanks for this tip. I had not heard of edgeonup. I had seen Steve Ellis thread test, which is the basis of edgeonup. I got inspired and today I made a thread tester out of sewing thread and a piece of UHMW plastic. I "calibrated" it by finding a weight for the thread that would almost but not quite allow the thread to flex without being cut by a new single-edge razor blade. Maybe you can satisfy your engineering impulses by making one for yourself. If you do, let me know how you make out.

I will run out of arm hair or calluses long before I run out of thread.

Doug

Very cool..... would love to see some pictures of the device. I would love to make one, but, I know that I lack the time.....

The primary advantage to a tool such as this is that it is repeatable and not as subjective (as in your don't need to learn what sharp feels like on your nail). One disadvantage, of course, is that you are testing at a single point on the blade.... nothing is perfect.

[Patrick Chase]

V
The primary advantage to a tool such as this is that it is repeatable and not as subjective (as in your don't need to learn what sharp feels like on your nail). One disadvantage, of course, is that you are testing at a single point on the blade.... nothing is perfect.

The usual way to deal with that is by repetition. IIRC Steve Elliott always did 5 thread loops at each condition. That could get expensive with the EdgeOnUp, of course.

[David Ragan]

Yesterday I was stropping blade (dry), left cap iron on. Then ran edge side to side through end grain-to remove burr. That is the correct scenario for that maneuver, right?

[Jim Koepke]

Yesterday I was stropping blade (dry), left cap iron on. Then ran edge side to side through end grain-to remove burr. That is the correct scenario for that maneuver, right?

There a million correct scenarios in the world of edge sharpening.

jtk

[Doug Hepler]

Andrew,

OK, since you asked (or is it my inherent proclivity to teach, or perhaps it's pure vanity). Here is my go-no-go test apparatus based on Cliff Stamp and Steve Elliott. I run a piece of thread (Elliott says 40 Wt Coates & Clarke rayon) over a gap to a weight. Then I lower the edge being tested onto the thread over the gap. Slowly, straight down, no slicing. If the edge is sharp, it cuts the thread. If not sharp, it depresses the thread and raises the weight.

So, how sharp? According to Elliott, if 40 wt rayon thread is used, the weight should be 65 - 100 grams. Since I did not know the weight or composition of my thread I chose a weight by trial and error until I got to a weight that would not allow a fresh single-bladed razor blade to cut the thread. Then I added one more 1/4" hex nut (5 grams more or less). That came to about 75 grams as it turns out. So, a new razor blade cuts the thread. If the edge being tested also cuts the thread, it is as sharp as a new razor blade. And so forth. If my standard is less than that, I can use a heavier weight (another hex nut or so) I already have a 100 gram weight that I plan to use when I obtain some 40 wt rayon thread. Here are the pictures. I Photoshopped them to hide the worst of my execrable workmanship. The thread runs from the spool over a UHMW sheave, over the gap, through another UHMW sheave with a pin in it to act as a pulley, and down to the weight. Don't laugh at the wing nut. It makes a convenient thread clamp. So, this was an afternoon's pastime. But it works more or less and does not cost $150. BTW, I could just have made a loop of thread and hung the weight from it, supported by the edge being tested. But where's the fun in that?

Doug370275370276

[Patrick Chase]

OK, since you asked (or is it my inherent proclivity to teach, or perhaps it's pure vanity). Here is my go-no-go test apparatus based on Cliff Stamp and Steve Elliott.

You're just a teeny little spring away from something that can return continuous sharpness scores instead of go/no-go :-).

[Brian Holcombe]

A good test for sharpness is the hanging hair test, but I can say with honesty that I have long stopped 'testing' my edges. I'm going to put them right back to work and that is a test in itself.

I will try and notice however; is end grain being pared cleanly when need be? Is the shaving produced clean? Is the surface shiny? etc.

[Jim Koepke]

A good test for sharpness is the hanging hair test, but I can say with honesty that I have long stopped 'testing' my edges. I'm going to put them right back to work and that is a test in itself.

I will try and notice however; is end grain being pared cleanly when need be? Is the shaving produced clean? Is the surface shiny? etc.

+1 on this, the result is the best test there is of edge quality.

jtk

[Johnny Kleso]

4-8 Power Eye Loupe is a pretty good tool in an experienced tool makers tool box..

[David Ragan]

Andrew,

OK, since you asked (or is it my inherent proclivity to teach, or perhaps it's pure vanity). Here is my go-no-go test apparatus based on Cliff Stamp and Steve Elliott. I run a piece of thread (Elliott says 40 Wt Coates & Clarke rayon) over a gap to a weight. Then I lower the edge being tested onto the thread over the gap. Slowly, straight down, no slicing. If the edge is sharp, it cuts the thread. If not sharp, it depresses the thread and raises the weight.

So, how sharp? According to Elliott, if 40 wt rayon thread is used, the weight should be 65 - 100 grams. Since I did not know the weight or composition of my thread I chose a weight by trial and error until I got to a weight that would not allow a fresh single-bladed razor blade to cut the thread. Then I added one more 1/4" hex nut (5 grams more or less). That came to about 75 grams as it turns out. So, a new razor blade cuts the thread. If the edge being tested also cuts the thread, it is as sharp as a new razor blade. And so forth. If my standard is less than that, I can use a heavier weight (another hex nut or so) I already have a 100 gram weight that I plan to use when I obtain some 40 wt rayon thread. Here are the pictures. I Photoshopped them to hide the worst of my execrable workmanship. The thread runs from the spool over a UHMW sheave, over the gap, through another UHMW sheave with a pin in it to act as a pulley, and down to the weight. Don't laugh at the wing nut. It makes a convenient thread clamp. So, this was an afternoon's pastime. But it works more or less and does not cost $150. BTW, I could just have made a loop of thread and hung the weight from it, supported by the edge being tested. But where's the fun in that?

Doug370275370276

Doug, that is an excellent gadget, I am fascinated and may be able to spend more time putting off critical WW cuts by making one.

Last night, though, I was reading Chapter one of Leonard Lee's great book (we all know it) "Sharpening".......where the Wilkinson Sword razor blade's sharpness is outdone (photomicrographically) by a chisel honed on 6K grit, IIRC.

How about that?

[David Ragan]

Andrew,

OK, since you asked (or is it my inherent proclivity to teach, or perhaps it's pure vanity). Here is my go-no-go test apparatus based on Cliff Stamp and Steve Elliott. I run a piece of thread (Elliott says 40 Wt Coates & Clarke rayon) over a gap to a weight. Then I lower the edge being tested onto the thread over the gap. Slowly, straight down, no slicing. If the edge is sharp, it cuts the thread. If not sharp, it depresses the thread and raises the weight.

So, how sharp? According to Elliott, if 40 wt rayon thread is used, the weight should be 65 - 100 grams. Since I did not know the weight or composition of my thread I chose a weight by trial and error until I got to a weight that would not allow a fresh single-bladed razor blade to cut the thread. Then I added one more 1/4" hex nut (5 grams more or less). That came to about 75 grams as it turns out. So, a new razor blade cuts the thread. If the edge being tested also cuts the thread, it is as sharp as a new razor blade. And so forth. If my standard is less than that, I can use a heavier weight (another hex nut or so) I already have a 100 gram weight that I plan to use when I obtain some 40 wt rayon thread. Here are the pictures. I Photoshopped them to hide the worst of my execrable workmanship. The thread runs from the spool over a UHMW sheave, over the gap, through another UHMW sheave with a pin in it to act as a pulley, and down to the weight. Don't laugh at the wing nut. It makes a convenient thread clamp. So, this was an afternoon's pastime. But it works more or less and does not cost $150. BTW, I could just have made a loop of thread and hung the weight from it, supported by the edge being tested. But where's the fun in that?

Doug370275370276

How about a strand of super thin fishing line? Maybe the standards would be more consistent? I mean instead of thread being multiple strands wound together, you have a solid piece of line (polypropylene?).

[ken hatch]

4-8 Power Eye Loupe is a pretty good tool in an experienced tool makers tool box..

Johnny,

I agree, a loupe, a good light (direct sunlight is best), and your fingers are the best test for several reasons. The most important is the edge will degrade with first contact, testing starts that process.

I have often said if it looks sharp and feels sharp it is sharp.

ken

[Doug Hepler]

David,

I think fishing line would work well. (a) I wanted to use Elliott's experience as a basis and (b) there was no fishing line in my wife's sewing box

Brian, Jim, Johnny, Ken, . . . I get it. But the OP was about objective measurement

Doug

[ken hatch]

David,

I think fishing line would work well. (a) I wanted to use Elliott's experience as a basis and (b) there was no fishing line in my wife's sewing box

Brian, Jim, Johnny, Ken, . . . I get it. But the OP was about objective measurement

Doug

Doug,

Agree but all the paper, nail, end grain tests do not give an objective measurement. For that you need something like the "Edge on up" or better.

Of all the subjective "tests" looking and feeling works as well if not better and has no downside.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Thinking about all the times someone has suggested my time was wasted rehabbing old tools when it would have been possible to buy new planes from our favorite sources and have been time and money ahead.

Spending as much time as it takes to read this thread about coming up with a way to put a number on the quality of an edge seems to be a bit more frivolous with one's time.

For my way of thinking there is a bit of a flaw with Doug's testing device. The thread is able to move laterally under the edge.

My thought is the thread should not be able to flex. The thread should be fixed between two points that can move and pull on a calibrated gauge to determine how much pressure it takes to penetrate the thread.

Again, to what end is all of this?

As alluded to in an earlier post, the resulting surface produced by the edge is as good a test as any other.

For me, a test on removing arm hair tells me a lot before walking away from my stones. At most the inconvenience involves rolling up my sleeves. The result can be broken down in to different levels:

If the blade's edge rolls over the arm hair, it needs a bit more work.

If one can feel hair being pulled, there are still some nicks or burrs on the edge. Some hair may be removed, but any nicks will leave streaks on end grain.

If it feels like it is pushing the hairs over but a few cut hairs appear on the edge, then the blade is starting to enter the realm of sharp.

If the blade is clearly removing hair but leaving a few behind, it is pretty sharp and would likely be able to take on most normal tasks.

If it feels like nothing is happening but a pile of hair is on the blade and a clean swath is in its wake, then the blade is sharp enough for wood working. At least none of my edges that have done this have had any problems with any woodworking tasks of mine.

Razor users would want sharper than this. They move to the hanging hair test. In this test the blade is touched to a hanging hair and the hair should separate by its own weight on the blade, or something like that. The hanging hair test also has a few different degrees of sharpness.

So folks, save time and money by using what is growing on your arm.

Warning this test is not for the squeamish or those with an unsteady hand.

jtk

[Bill Adamsen]

This is an excellent thread but I must say reading it gets me all stressed out because I seem to have an infinite number of things that need to be sharpened. I'm definitely of the sharp enough school. Too sharp is counterproductive - more damaging than sharp enough - as I think WF is implying. I always remove the wear bevel.

[Patrick Chase]

For my way of thinking there is a bit of a flaw with Doug's testing device. The thread is able to move laterally under the edge.

Yes, that's correct. Any sort of slicing motion invalidates the result. With that said I think that with good operator technique Doug's device will be perfectly workable. It's not *that* hard to avoid slicing.

As to the larger point of whether this is worth doing, I think it depends on how you plan to use it. It was worthwhile for the rest of us that Steve Elliott did something along the lines, because he created and published a uniquely useful and informative data set.

There are a depressing number of "sharpness studies" out there that consist of somebody staring at ridiculously ambiguous 'scope shots and making unjustified pronouncements on that basis. Brent Beach is a habitual offender in that respect. If you're going to go to the trouble of publishing a blog about sharpening, then you'd might as well go to the trouble of figuring out how to actually measure sharpness, as Steve did.

OTOH for an individual woodworker who just wants to get work done, no, I don't think it's justified. That's why I haven't done it myself.

[Stewie Simpson]

Yes, that's correct. Any sort of slicing motion invalidates the result. With that said I think that with good operator technique Doug's device will be perfectly workable. It's not *that* hard to avoid slicing.

As to the larger point of whether this is worth doing, I think it depends on how you plan to use it. It was worthwhile for the rest of us that Steve Elliott did something along the lines, because he created and published a uniquely useful and informative data set.

There are a depressing number of "sharpness studies" out there that consist of somebody staring at ridiculously ambiguous 'scope shots and making unjustified pronouncements on that basis. Brent Beach is a habitual offender in that respect. If you're going to go to the trouble of publishing a blog about sharpening, then you'd might as well go to the trouble of figuring out how to actually measure sharpness, as Steve did.

OTOH for an individual woodworker who just wants to get work done, no, I don't think it's justified. That's why I haven't done it myself.

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.html

First, though, what is our goal when we sharpen a tool? It is not just a tool with the finest possible included angle at the edge. We could prepare a plane iron with a 15 degree included angle that would cut very well but would require resharpening after just a few feet of planing.


Sharpness in tools means the right balance of edge sharpness and edge durability. We want to be able to plane several hundred feet between sharpenings.


Finding the right included angle is a matter of experimentation. You can begin with a standard angle and experiment with larger and smaller angles and see which angle works best for the wood you are using and your style of working.

[James Waldron]

I'm with Brian: I sharpen to get to work. I never sharpen to measure sharpness. I get a lot of work done that way.

If I get tired of working, I'll stop and have a sandwich and a beer.

You can carry on with measuring and posting; I'll get back to work.

[David Ragan]

So, the issue w Doug's device is that the same blade point moves along the lenght of the string, not actually slicing, right?

Having said that, I will say outright that my two methods are the bouncing light maneuver, and the arm hair shave.

What I like to experience w the arm hair method is-as I move the blade along, the hair-all of it, easily pops off w little resistance.

I have recently started using the finger pad feeling test.

The paper slice is a good one that lots of folks use, has no risk of trauma....what kind of paper is the hardest to slice? Newspaper? Phone book sheets?

[Jim Koepke]

what kind of paper is the hardest to slice? Newspaper? Phone book sheets?

Damp tissue?

The different papers would attest to different levels of sharpness.

Once you get good at cutting through (remember, not a slicing movement) regular 20# bond paper move up to a cash register receipt. (20# pound bond is the weight of most envelopes and office/copier paper.)

jtk

[steven c newman]

All I ask of my sharpened edges, is that they stay that way long enough to complete a project...or two. Some are getting ready for their fifth straight project..

In-between projects? I use that "downtime" to refresh an edge or two...rarely needing a full sharpening....just a hone or two.

Could not care less if they can cut a piece of paper...I'm after cutting wood.....and getting a project completed.

[David Ragan]

Now, JTK, that is funny, wet tissue. That is a joke, right?

Steven, et al point about getting to work is well made.

Leonard Lee in his book "Sharpening" says further on in Chapter 1, more or less that sharpening includes
-keenness of edge
-shape of the edge, which is dependent on:
-nature of steel
-intended use of the tool

All my hand tools are A2, planes and chisels. Having not purchased anything in some time, recently the idea crossed my mind to get some O1 or PMV11, or Hock blades for a trial.

What kind of situation would O1 or PMV11 outdo A2, where I would notice it?

My father in law had given me an old Stanley block plane years ago, and I was getting blade ready to loan out. Wow....certainly helps to realize how nice our steel and tools can be these days.

[Mike Holbrook]

Before my skin got too thin to be comfortable doing it and my vision got worse...... I use to use a variation on JK’s arm shaving test. I would find a single hair on my arm and try to remove it with a single pass of the blade. Usually if you can do that the blade is sharp.

I believe A2 is a little more “rubbery”, like stainless than 01 or PMV11. Some testers think A2 is harder to get sharp than 01. There are all sorts of 01, but people who use it seem more interested in being able to sharpen fast, less interested in how long the blade stays sharp. People who like PMV11 prefer to spend a little more time sharpening to get an edge that holds up under use longer. I would suggest reading Derek Cohens practical testing of several different steels http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/index.html.

[Brian Holcombe]

Frankly I would put time on your planes more than concern yourself about steels. Wear them out regularly and routinely and resharpen them, this process with frustrate you and provide insight far more than listing off pros and cons of steels will.

Look for the wear bevel, try and find the point at which you need to resharpen in your work...rinse and repeat.

[Jim Koepke]

What kind of situation would O1 or PMV11 outdo A2, where I would notice it?

My paring chisels have a bevel of ~20º. A2 tends to chip more at such low angles. My Low Angle Jack Plane, LN #62 has an A2 blade at 25º. It stays sharp longer, but it does tend to chip a bit. It is used mainly for a shooting plane. The end grain tends to be a bit tougher on a blade.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

What kind of situation would O1 or PMV11 outdo A2, where I would notice it?

My snarky reply is that it's easier to list the situations in which at least one of O1 or PM-V11 wouldn't out-do A2. Here's the list:

For that matter I can't think of any case where A2 outperforms PM-V11, though there are a couple where O1 does better than either.

Seriously, when all else (specifically quality/processing) is equal both O1 and PM-V11 have much finer grain structure than A2. This translates to better initial edge quality, particularly with "soft" natural abrasives. It also translates to less tendency to degrade by chipping, and therefore longer life at low edge angles, where A2 is particularly vulnerable to "carbide dropout".

O1 has relatively low non-Carbon alloy content, so it's abrasion resistance isn't as high as A2. PM-V11 OTOH is even more abrasion-resistant than A2, though in my experience it doesn't hold up as well as O1 at really low edge angles.

IMO A2 has simply been rendered obsolete by the advent of powdered metallurgy.

[Patrick Chase]

I believe A2 is a little more “rubbery”, like stainless than 01 or PMV11.

PM-V11 has been described by its manufacturer as "a high hardness Type 440C stainless steel". In terms of composition and behavior it's much close to stainless than is A2, though with the important caveat that it as HCS-ish grain structure.

[John K Jordan]

Very cool..... would love to see some pictures of the device. I would love to make one, but, I know that I lack the time.....

The primary advantage to a tool such as this is that it is repeatable and not as subjective (as in your don't need to learn what sharp feels like on your nail). One disadvantage, of course, is that you are testing at a single point on the blade.... nothing is perfect.

Andrew,

Removing the subjectivity is what we like about the edgeonup tester. I've used mine to check knives and turning tools. Before this tester evaluating the edge on my woodturning skew chisels was by the hair on my arm and "wow, that's sharp". The tester is currently on loan to woodturner John Lucas who is evaluating sharpening methods for turning tools. (perhaps a bit different from hand tools due to the high surface speeds and severe forces.) John also is getting SEM photos of the edges and I loaned him one of my laboratory microscopes for optical comparison. I think he plans to write an article for one of the woodturning magazines. John told me last night that according to the tester the sharpest tools in his shop are his chip-carving knives - no big surprise!

It does check just a single point but from testing at different points a well-sharpened edge usually seems fairly consistent. I've checked different areas on the same blade and the number were close. They test the machines with single-edge razor blades. They use a digital scale that records peak force. It is important to lower the blade with a slow and steady motion for consistency. For knives they use a fulcrum post for more control. Testing a chisel would benefit from clamping the blade to an arm.

If building a tester, you might consider buying the media (calibrated mono-filament) from EdgeOnUp. Their filament holder would also be nice - it stores a spool of filament in the base and has thumbscrews to hold a section tight. There are pictures on his web site. All you would need then is to provide a suitable scale.

If you want to see and try the tester perhaps I could meet up with you the next time I go to Columbus to visit my brother, or if you find yourself going through East TN give me a holler. I've got spare holders and filament if you want to borrow something to play with.

JKJ

[Stanley Powers]

Take a piece of paper (I have a lot of stick-its in the shop). PUSH (not slice) the edge into the paper. If it cuts with little effort and their is NO rough edge to the cut what-so-ever, then I consider that sharp. Test all my edges this way. (I do a lot of stropping, not much sharpening on stones. Easier to keep a blade sharp than to get a blade sharp!)

[Stanley Covington]

Frankly I would put time on your planes more than concern yourself about steels. Wear them out regularly and routinely and resharpen them, this process will frustrate you and provide insight far more than listing off pros and cons of steels will. Look for the wear bevel, try and find the point at which you need to resharpen in your work...rinse and repeat. AMEN!! The ability to sense the condition of your edge, and when the time has come to resharpen it is an important skill to develop. If you continue to use the blade past that point, the effort required to cut will increase, while at the same time the quality of your work will decrease, and the wear bevel (or roundover) will quickly become wider (duller) such that the time and stone necessary to sharpen away the wear bevel takes longer than it would if you had stopped and resharpened. Stan

[James Pallas]

AMEN!! The ability to sense the condition of your edge, and when the time has come to resharpen it is an important skill to develop. If you continue to use the blade past that point, the effort required to cut will increase, while at the same time the quality of your work will decrease, and the wear bevel (or roundover) will quickly become wider (duller) such that the time and stone necessary to sharpen away the wear bevel takes longer than it would if you had stopped and resharpened. Stan
So true. When the tool isn't doing as I like I take then iron to my smooth flat river Rock and give it a rub. When it feels right on the stone I'll take a look at it with some light. Looks good put it back to work. If it doesn't work or feel just right repeat.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

So true. When the tool isn't doing as I like I take then iron to my smooth flat river Rock and give it a rub. When it feels right on the stone I'll take a look at it with some light. Looks good put it back to work. If it doesn't work or feel just right repeat.
Jim

That is verily the one true "neanderthal approach".

[bridger berdel]

So true. When the tool isn't doing as I like I take then iron to my smooth flat river Rock and give it a rub. When it feels right on the stone I'll take a look at it with some light. Looks good put it back to work. If it doesn't work or feel just right repeat.
Jim

I have picked up a few likely looking rocks while hiking, flattened them and tried them for sharpening stones. Some have been better than others, but a few have been quite good.

[James Pallas]

Objectivity test for me. Plane pushes easily, takes a working shaving, finish surface is what I want, lasts a reasonable amount of time for the material being worked. Like this. And the plane went a long while after this time.
Jim

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Sharpness for what purpose. My dad could get one hell of an edge on his straight razor, but I wouldn't expect it to hold up to use on my wood lathe. Turners have some preferences for angles of the edges for cutting. Some more acute depending on the species of wood being worked. Same for chain saw teeth. Cutting a hair or thread is not particularly helpful with the edge on an axe. Years ago, I was given a round poll axe from Norway. It sharpened easily and cut amazingly. But it was no scalpel.

[David Ragan]

Objectivity test for me. Plane pushes easily, takes a working shaving, finish surface is what I want, lasts a reasonable amount of time for the material being worked. Like this. And the plane went a long while after this time.
Jim

Respectable pile of shavings. Beautiful. And, so fun to make. What I enjoy thet most is a bevel up going against the grain, getting no tear out-now, that is the best.




Sharpness for what purpose. My dad could get one hell of an edge on his straight razor, but I wouldn't expect it to hold up to use on my wood lathe. Turners have some preferences for angles of the edges for cutting. Some more acute depending on the species of wood being worked. Same for chain saw teeth. Cutting a hair or thread is not particularly helpful with the edge on an axe. Years ago, I was given a round poll axe from Norway. It sharpened easily and cut amazingly. But it was no scalpel.

Excellent points.

My original question, which has been answered (to my delight) in numerous ways, was asked primarily w planes in mind. Leonard Lee's book is the priimary reading material now in my...... ummm, library. He addyresses edge geometry for us woodworkers in his typical easy to understand style.

[Brian Holcombe]

Sharpness for what purpose. My dad could get one hell of an edge on his straight razor, but I wouldn't expect it to hold up to use on my wood lathe. Turners have some preferences for angles of the edges for cutting. Some more acute depending on the species of wood being worked. Same for chain saw teeth. Cutting a hair or thread is not particularly helpful with the edge on an axe. Years ago, I was given a round poll axe from Norway. It sharpened easily and cut amazingly. But it was no scalpel.

This is the purpose.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/img_8599.jpg

[David Ragan]

This is the purpose.

...Perfect...

[James Pallas]

Hey Brian, objective accomplished. The shine hurts my eyes:D
Jim

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks gents :D

[Jim Koepke]

Yes Brian it is all about the results.

Yours are beautiful by the way.

If that could be done with a dull blade we wouldn't have sharpening discussions.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Jim!

[Brian Holcombe]

AMEN!! The ability to sense the condition of your edge, and when the time has come to resharpen it is an important skill to develop. If you continue to use the blade past that point, the effort required to cut will increase, while at the same time the quality of your work will decrease, and the wear bevel (or roundover) will quickly become wider (duller) such that the time and stone necessary to sharpen away the wear bevel takes longer than it would if you had stopped and resharpened. Stan

Thanks Stan! Absolutely, I think this was the biggest 'ah-ha' moment in my work (at least in finish planing) was when I discovered that I could sense minute dullness in the plane and knew well to stop and sharpen. I push it sometimes now, but generally I'm sharpening way more than I was when I first started hand planing or finish planing.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Stan! Absolutely, I think this was the biggest 'ah-ha' moment in my work (at least in finish planing) was when I discovered that I could sense minute dullness in the plane and new well to stop and sharpen. I push it sometimes now, but generally I'm sharpening way more than I was when I first started hand planing or finish planing.

It is likely many of us have one of those palm against the forehead moments like this.

When it comes to bench planes;

My smoothers are sharpened more often than my midsize or jack planes which are sharpened more often than my try planes or jointers which are sharpened more often than my scrub plane.

Sharpness is helpful on each plane, but some can be allowed to go a little longer between sharpening than others.

Of course as is often the case, 371144

jtk

[James Pallas]

It's been a long time since I had this confusion and I think it needs some clarification. When I say sharpen I mean the full way from course stone to finish stone. When I say hone I mean take it to the finish stone or maybe a strop and evaluate. When I was learning it was all or none. I spent a lot of steel and even more time than I ever needed. I didn't get it until I was asked about the time I was taking and than getting some direction. So now I even tell myself to "clean up that edge". I wonder how others think about this?
Jim

[Brian Holcombe]

James, it all depends, for chisels I will 'hone' meaning just touch up the edge, sometimes. For plane blades, it's not worth the effort so I work from coarse on through every time.

[James Pallas]

James, it all depends, for chisels I will 'hone' meaning just touch up the edge, sometimes. For plane blades, it's not worth the effort so I work from coarse on through every time.
Thanks Brian. I know you use Japanese planes a lot. Do you handle western irons any differently? I'm asking because you are doing the whole bevel on Japanese blades and only a smaller part of the bevel on western irons. I made an assumption here that you are hollow grinding western irons. I know, I know assumptions not good.:)
Jim

[Brian Holcombe]

I start by sharpening away the wear on coarse stones, then I hollow grind followed by honing.

[David Ragan]

371144

jtk

I do love it when you say that; it's a shame that you have to.

Has anyone ever challenged you w that said?

[Jim Koepke]

I do love it when you say that; it's a shame that you have to.

Has anyone ever challenged you w that said?

Your Millage May Vary is seldom challenged. It is often folks have similar results, but less often that things turn out without some variance.

Besides, just because something works for me in my shop doesn't mean it will be the best method in someone else's shop.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Your Millage May Vary is seldom challenged. It is often folks have similar results, but less often that things turn out without some variance.

Besides, just because something works for me in my shop doesn't mean it will be the best method in someone else's shop.

jtk

I don't think I've ever challenged Jim about that because he uses it in proper circumstances.

I've certainly challenged people who say things along the lines of "the Earth is flat, YMMV so don't argue with me". For YMMV to be a valid response there actually has to be, you know, *variability*.

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Stan! Absolutely, I think this was the biggest 'ah-ha' moment in my work (at least in finish planing) was when I discovered that I could sense minute dullness in the plane and knew well to stop and sharpen. I push it sometimes now, but generally I'm sharpening way more than I was when I first started hand planing or finish planing.

I hope that "Sharpening way more" means "sharpening more frequently, but less total time spent sharpening." Or maybe it means "the quality of my planing work product has improved and/or become easier?" YMMV? :D

[Brian Holcombe]

I hope that "Sharpening way more" means "sharpening more frequently, but less total time spent sharpening." Or maybe it means "the quality of my planing work product has improved and/or become easier?" YMMV? :D

Hah! :D All of the above? My mileage does vary.