Midsized Crosscut Saw?

[Tom Blank]

On a recent project, I was ready to cut some approximately 1” x 4” stock to finished length and decided I did not have a proper saw for the task. My small crosscut backsaw did not have enough depth of blade to saw through with the stock on edge and the pitch was too fine to efficiently cut across the 4” wide face. I have a Diston D-24 crosscut, but it was as much too big as the backsaw was too small.


I had not run into that problem before. I dug around on the net, but did not find what I thought might be the perfect midsized saw for crosscutting.


What do you all use? Thanks for your input.


TAB

[Jim Koepke]

You might want to look into a panel saw. It is like a regular saw only the blade is ~18" or so. Some folks make their own out of a saw that has a kink at the toe end or just shorten the plate. Some modern models have a half back feature on them.

Also a back saw of around 16" used with a bench hook is useful for the scale of work you mention.

jtk

[Brian Lefort]

Veritas. Three sizes available. Dovetail, carcass, and the largest rip and crosscut.

[Patrick Chase]

Veritas. Three sizes available. Dovetail, carcass, and the largest rip and crosscut.

The largest is the Tenon saw, which has a cut depth of just under 4" and would just barely work for cutting a board like this on-edge. It's a great saw.

Like Jim I would probably choose a panel saw for this job though. I have the Pax ones that LV sells, and they work well (after I sharpened them).

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Newbie here. Two Veritas saws (small + middle) and Japanese Ryoba.

Veritas dovetail/small crosscut saw - kerf 0.7 mm (0.028 inch).
Veritas carcass saw rip/crosscut - kerf 0.7 mm (0.028 inch).
Ryoba 250 mm - kerf 0.7 mm (0.028 inch).

With small saw I start the cut. And then finish with bigger one. It works because all saws have nearly the same kerf. Want to try tenon saw and panel saw some day. But the set above works with less effort because of thin kerf.

[Robert Hazelwood]

A panel saw or larger backsaw in the 8 ppi to 11 ppi range would be nice for this. But I wouldn't be afraid to use my larger D-8 handsaw either. I would not saw it on edge unless it was an unusual situation.

Something to consider is a medium size ryoba, like 240mm. If you can abide the different form and cutting action, they work great on tasks like this and many others. I have the Gyokucho, and it is an excellent saw for the money (especially considering you get a ripteeth as well)

[steven c newman]

I have 2 D-8s, a 26" 8 ppi crosscut, and a 20" 10 ppi crosscut. Small stuff like a 1 x 4, go into the Langdon No. 75 Mitre Box, with the 5" x 30" No. 4 backsaw...11 ppi.....

[Pete Taran]

As others have noted, a panel saw in the 20-22" range in 10 ppi, give or take is the perfect saw for this task. Backsaws are meant to be used mostly for joinery, although you can use them to cut anything if it will fit under the back. Kind of like using a screwdriver to pry open a paint can. Not what it was intended to be used for, but it works.

[Mike Allen1010]

As others have noted, a panel saw in the 20-22" range in 10 ppi, give or take is the perfect saw for this task. Backsaws are meant to be used mostly for joinery, although you can use them to cut anything if it will fit under the back. Kind of like using a screwdriver to pry open a paint can. Not what it was intended to be used for, but it works.


+1 to what Pete said.

IMHO panel saws are often overlooked by hand tool users for filling the gap between backed, joinery saws and full-size handsaw's. Panel saws are the most used saws in my shop – I have 3 rip and 3 crosscut in my daily user till. Their lightweight and maneuverability make them very handy for use at the bench, up on a ladder, or in the truck for crosscutting rough stock into more manageable lengths before driving home from the lumber yard. If you don't have one, I would encourage you to give it a try.

Even though you might be "able"to crosscut smaller components like drawer sides, raised panels etc. with a large enough back saw, it's much faster, easier and I would argue more accurate to cut these pieces with a panel saw. For me, a 20 inch saw plate that is 3 – 4 inches wide at the heel makes it easier to visualize straight and square, as compared to a smaller backed, tennon saw etc.


Because the panel saw plates are by definition lighter and thinner than full-size hand saws, it's important to make sure your panel saw has a stiff, well tensioned plate. That way you're less likely to kink it when showing off for the cute cashier at the lumberyard while crosscutting stock in the parking lot.


Cheers, Mike

[James Waldron]

As others have noted, a panel saw in the 20-22" range in 10 ppi, give or take is the perfect saw for this task. Backsaws are meant to be used mostly for joinery, although you can use them to cut anything if it will fit under the back. Kind of like using a screwdriver to pry open a paint can. Not what it was intended to be used for, but it works.

If you look back to the original post, you'll be reminded that we're talking a 1 X 4 here, not some wide stock. I can't imagine his back saw is too short for a 1 X 4. His problem is with the slow cut of too fine teeth on his cross-cut saw, not the length of the saw. For a 1 X 4, a panel saw, despite it's many fine qualities, is a bit overkill if one has a decent carcass saw,12-14 tpi. With the slow cut and the limited depth of cut mentioned by the OP, it sounds like he's talking about a small, fine toothed dovetail saw.

[Pete Taran]

Jim,

Not to be argumentative, but if you also look back to the OP, you will see that he is cutting off the same 1x4. If he said I want to created a shoulder, or a slot in the 1x4, a backsaw would be exactly what is required (a crosscut variety, not rip btw). Since he said he was cutting it off, a panel saw is the proper tool for the job. As I mentioned in my first reply, anything with teeth could work. He could even chip carve it away with a sharp knife if he wanted to. But, the classic tool for cutting off dressed stock is in fact a panel saw.

[Kurtis Johnson]

You are wanting a panel saw. They are sought after and expensive. I personally would have no problem using a full length handsaw to cut that stock. Your mileage may vary.

If appropriate, I'd also recomend cutting slightly fat, maybe 1/16", then truing to the line with a plane and shooting board. When utilizing "shooting", the saw becomes much less important.

[James Waldron]

Jim,

Not to be argumentative, but if you also look back to the OP, you will see that he is cutting off the same 1x4. If he said I want to created a shoulder, or a slot in the 1x4, a backsaw would be exactly what is required (a crosscut variety, not rip btw). Since he said he was cutting it off, a panel saw is the proper tool for the job. As I mentioned in my first reply, anything with teeth could work. He could even chip carve it away with a sharp knife if he wanted to. But, the classic tool for cutting off dressed stock is in fact a panel saw.

Perhaps my view is colored by the fact that my carcass saw (14", 12 tpi) is always right at hand, while my panel saws are a couple of steps and a reach to retrieve from their till. For a single 4" crosscut, I'm quite happy with the Xcut carcass saw and bench hook; it's precise, pretty quick, produces a pretty fine surface and requires minimal work on the shooting board. For anything bigger, the Xcut panel saw (20", 10 tpi)on the saw bench is the tool of choice. The border line is not a rigid thing, of course, and if I have 8-10 of the 4" cross cuts, I'd definitely go to the panel saw.

[steven c newman]

For cutting 1 x 4 stock..
370084
Works every time, always set up. Any angle can be cut, as needed. Langdon No. 75
Can also cut a saw kerf from the end of a board, and still have it square. BTDT....

[Tom Blank]

Perhaps my view is colored by the fact that my carcass saw (14", 12 tpi) is always right at hand, while my panel saws are a couple of steps and a reach to retrieve from their till. For a single 4" crosscut, I'm quite happy with the Xcut carcass saw and bench hook; it's precise, pretty quick, produces a pretty fine surface and requires minimal work on the shooting board. For anything bigger, the Xcut panel saw (20", 10 tpi)on the saw bench is the tool of choice. The border line is not a rigid thing, of course, and if I have 8-10 of the 4" cross cuts, I'd definitely go to the panel saw.

Jim,

My xcut backsaw is 15 tpi and it loaded up badly cutting across the 4" face. Do you find 12 tpi has sufficient gullet space for that wide a cut?

Tom

[steven c newman]

Rub the tooth line with a candle, sawdust will not load up the gullets. A Disston #4 backsaw is always 11ppi.....I have no trouble cutting 1x 4 Maple in that mitre box I use.

[James Waldron]

Jim,

My xcut backsaw is 15 tpi and it loaded up badly cutting across the 4" face. Do you find 12 tpi has sufficient gullet space for that wide a cut?

Tom

12 tpi is fine if your saw plate and teeth are properly waxed and you use full strokes to make sure the gullets get a chance to clear out. A 14" plate makes that easy. And sharp is important, as always. The panel saw is faster of course, but not by that much when I factor in the logistics of pulling the saw out of the till and clearing the inevitable "stuff" off the saw bench.

To each his own, of course.

[Pete Taran]

While 12 point panel saws do show up, the most common size is 10 point followed closely by 11. As for backsaws, 13 ppi is the most common size found on regular backsaws. Mitre saws used with a box are always 12. At least when it comes to Disston. Not sure where Steve scored his 11 point backsaws unless he cut them himself, that is not a size I've ever seen before on a Disston.

[steven c newman]

Per the Disstonian Institute....Disston made 11 ppi backsaws as a No. 4.....and made them for mitre boxes as well. You will find a "Made expressly for.." as part of the etch. Have a 5 x 28 made for a Stanley 358, and a Millers Falls/Langdon 5 x 30' Both are Disston No. 4s, with 11 ppi. There is also a 4 x 26 and a 4 x 24 No. 4, 11ppi saws in the shop. These are used in my #2246 mitre box by Stanley. I have been using a 14" long 11ppi No. 4 backsaw ( filed Rip) as my joinery saw...

I do have a D-8 20" 10ppi in the shop, along with a D-8 8ppi at 26"....

[steven c newman]

There are 4 panel saws hanging there....20" long and less..
370221
There is an Atkins in there, and a few Disstons....including the 10 ppi D-8...

[Pete Taran]

Steve,

I think your problem is you actually think you can make an assessment on reality based on what is written rather than what exists in the real world. In all the Disston catalogs I have, for the #4 it just shows that "Rip teeth available on request". It doesn't even show what the range of possibilities are for teeth on backsaws. The standard tooth size varied with length. Here is what I've found by filing and collecting Disston backsaws for 25 years:

16" #4 12 ppi cc
14" #4 13 ppi cc
12" #4 14 ppi cc
10 #4 15 ppi cc
8" #4 16 ppi cc

That is certainly not to say that other tooth sizes don't exist, but the standard off the rack sizes are above. As with all companies, Disston would cut teeth in whatever size you requested.

As for Mitre saws, they are all over the place, between 10 and 12 ppi. Their catalogs state that they are regularly supplied in 11 ppi, but just about every one I've filed is 12. Futher, I have several near pristine long examples that are 10 ppi.

Hope this helps the discussion.

Pete

[Pete Taran]

Don't tell the Institute! I knew it was written somewhere. From the 1932 catalog.

370246

[steven c newman]

Calling BS right here...as I have also COUNTED the points per inch on the saws I USE....Not sure HOW you learned to count....

[Pete Taran]

Steve,

Trying to suggest the 5 or 6 saws you might have to refer to is not nearly the same as the 10s of thousands I own, filed, sold or handled in the past 25 years. Plus, what more do you need as you can see the catalog excerpt I posted? You might want to lay off the salsa with your morning Cheerios. :D

[steven c newman]

Give the BS a rest, go back to the Disstonian and actually READ what Disston said about their Mitre Box No. 4 saws...you MIGHT just learn something? Doubt it...

OK, per the OP's question: I went to the shop, and set up a test piece of Hard Maple..
370267
My Langdon mitre box, using a 5" x 28", 11 ppi No. 4 Disston saw...
370268
Board is a 1 x 4 of Hard Maple. Line is to cut a 1/4" off of the end..
370269
The white stuff on the teeth is candle wax, I find the saw works better with a couple swipes...
370270
Does not take all that long to do. That is the cut-off laying there.
370271
I haven't had this 5 x 30 made for Millers Falls Disston No. 4 mitre saw sent out for sharpening, yet. Feel free to count the POINTS (11)
I did suggest the OP get a Panel saw..
370272
This is my 20", 10 ppi Disston D-8. It is even stamped as a "10" but, you can also count the points...
370273
The saw is related to my full sized, 8ppi D-8 crosscut saw..
370274
YMMV....

BTW..catalog is for a No. 8 saw...no relation to a No. 4 mitre box saw....

[Patrick Chase]

Calling BS right here...as I have also COUNTED the points per inch on the saws I USE....Not sure HOW you learned to count....

Wait, you just called BS on *Pete Taran* w.r.t. detail about Disston saws?

FYI the "Disstonian Institute" is just some random guy with a website. He and it has nothing to do with Disston the company. He's been wrong before, and he'll be wrong again.

[steven c newman]

I suppose YOU know how to READ an ad from Disston? Go back and read what it say about Disston Mitre box saws in Disston's own ads.....Bert...

[Jim Koepke]

May a bucket of ice water be offered to the path on which this thread has wondered?

jtk

[Pete Taran]

Stephen,

The #4 Backsaw is completely different from the #4 Mitre Saw which might be part of your confusion. Perhaps a dose of your own advice is required if actually cool off long enough to read what has been posted.

[Pat Barry]

I'm trying to figure out the whole salsa on Cheerio's thing ...

[steven c newman]

I think he may have meant sugar...but, like a few other things in this thread...he got it wrong...

So...mitre box to make that cut, or a panel saw? Or....maybe one of those mitre boxes that came use about any old saw you throw at it.

[Pete Taran]

When I was in the Army, we used to say too much salsa on the cheerios, meaning, something you did in the morning put you in a bad mood ( as putting salsa on your cheerios might do). Steve loves to argue and say people are wrong, without any actual proof to demonstrate what is, in fact, wrong. I posted a picture from a vintage catalog which backs up my point made in a previous post to a T, but somehow I got it wrong.

No matter, arguing in forums like these with folks who think of themselves as experts is as pointless as trying to count the stars in the sky. Not worth my time!

[steven c newman]

More BS....when I even show things in nice pictures...and things are spelled out in black & white....catalog picture wasn't even close to the saws I was talking about. These were SOLD by Disston as 11 ppi....most being made long ago....so IF someone today were to change the tooth count, say to 12ppi....does that make him right? I think not. One catalog page ( of the wrong saw) doesn't mean a thing. Other than what a No. 8 saw was sold as. Mitre box saws.....they tend to get in the way of false facts, don't they.

Sooo, Bert..how does your spiel help the OP? Other than attacking me? Is it Tom, Bert< or William?

37 years of being IN the Army, now retired.

[steven c newman]

This would be called a show & tell? YMMV...

[Tom Blank]

Thanks for everyone's input. I've settled on a 20" panel saw with 12 tpi to add to my saw till.

TAB

[Ted Phillips]

Tom - good call. I use a very similar saw for 80% of my non-joinery sawing tasks in the shop.

I might also add that if you knife in the cut line (what Paul Sellers calls a "knife wall"), then you can get away with using a much coarser saw - because the knife line will prevent splintering. That makes clean-up on the shooting board quick and painless.

[Prashun Patel]

OP got what he needed.
Closing the thread before someone threatens to walk away.
Save all personal attacks for private communication.
There's no place for it in public. It just makes everyone look and feel bad.