Staining/Dying QSWO

[Robert Engel]

I am building a trestle dining table. The top will be QSWO & the base will be walnut.

I plan to experiment but I'm looking for suggestions on dye or stain the oak in a darker color to go with the walnut.

I'm thinking about using a water based red dye then follow with a oil based mahogany.

I plan to grain fill. Where does the grain filling fall in this process? If I use a clear grain filler do I dye/stain first?

What has worked for you?

Thx.

[Prashun Patel]

Aesthetics are personal, but I think white oak and walnut go wonderfully together without color altering either.
I also would not bother with grain filling.

Try some test scraps with the QSWO and Walnut finished with the same topcoat and see how you like it. I would not try to make them darker to 'match'.

If you want to get a little fancy, you could use a dark brown glaze on the top. This means applying one or two base coats of your topcoat, and then applying the glaze. You let it partially dry, then buff off the excess. This will lodge color into the oak pores and will partially darken the top. It will decrease the contrast. Then you continue with the topcoats until satisfied.

Using a darker varnish on the top such as Waterlox will also make the top darker.

If you are going to dye and stain, beware of red dye and mahogany stain on QSWO. It will make the top red - not brown like the base.

[George Bokros]

I made a display cabinet out or rift sawn white oak and it was challenging to get all the fine grain stained.

[Steve Schoene]

White oak takes dye well without blotching, EXCEPT that frequently dye will not "take" in the pores. That's not really a problem if you follow the dye with a pigmented stain or pore filler. Clear pore filler won't contribute to solving that problem. I like oil based pore filler tinted with artists oil paint or with powdered pigment. The pore filler will do the same job as stain. Y

Trying to make oak match walnut is a fraught process since you will not be able to make them look the same, and getting the colors close will just give the impression that you tried to match but didn't succeed. Sure you can darken the oak, but I strongly recommend you don't aim to get particularly close to walnut color.

Whether to fill pores or not is an aesthetic choice depending on the formality of the style. In my mind trestle tables are more toward the casual end of the scale of formality but it is your choice

[Doug Hepler]

Robert,

I agree with previous posts that it may be difficult and frustrating to match white oak to walnut. If you want the base and top to match, I recommend that you reconsider the idea of using two species with markedly different colors, e.g., use oak or ash for the base and save the walnut for another project.

I am one who prefers to fill oak. I have had good results with CrystalLac. Grain filler will greatly reduce penetration of dye and stain. If you do decide to darken the oak, get the color you want and then use grain filler. (You can color grain filler with Transtint or UTC) Some people like to use a contrasting color in the grain filler but I have never cared for that look.

Doug

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Prashun...the work well together "natively"...

https://ub2wnq-sn3301.files.1drv.com/y4mJKmZCVNZj4gNXwSIjuj0ifS80WdNuG1-FjtGizpGTJmR_k_AcF9EF7Oh58Tc-iDngoERGxumfF8Jf0C6IHu-on8KgF3wyN44xwqww1zRhKv943B6B2mk6kvqqfYKFj66y18ibJ brBwMc8BZhchT-HbGVlAjtmp-c5FEYkZSjABjAtW5CsxaIgLMl7CAh96VBL4C2BAXSamoRDgA_w 2z2rw?width=418&height=600&cropmode=none

[John TenEyck]

I wouldn't try to match WO to walnut either, but that's just me - and many others it seems. But to address your question about dyeing and staining WO, look at Jeff Jewitt's website under the Stickley Finish Guide. There are lots of variations on Jeff's approach and materials, but he outlines the basic process very well.

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/resources/articles/

John

[Robert Engel]

For clarification, the oak I have is very light and I'm just looking to tint it more to a browner tone, not actually match the darkness of walnut.

I used Danish oil medium walnut on this tool chest. Took a look at it the other day it might be what I'm looking for. What do you all think?

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[Rob Young]

I wouldn't try to match WO to walnut either, but that's just me - and many others it seems. But to address your question about dyeing and staining WO, look at Jeff Jewitt's website under the Stickley Finish Guide. There are lots of variations on Jeff's approach and materials, but he outlines the basic process very well.

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/resources/articles/

John

System works very well.

Two small modifications I've made:

1) Add just a scant drop of liquid dish soap to the dye. Breaks surface tension and gets it into the pores more easily. Flooding the surface helps.
2) I use shellac instead of Seal-a-Cel, etc. Quicker and I can monkey with the color by changing shellacs or adding dyes. Generally I've used either garnett (might be too dark for most tastes) or orange (warms things up nicely) and then switch to blonde. All dewaxed, from flakes. Spray if possible.

I've done a little experimenting with pore filling using plaster of paris. It can be dyed using water based dyes. Works pretty well but don't plan on filling deep pores in one go as it will settle. Likewise, water based wood putties can be made to work. But test them to see that they will take a color. I found the cheap, house brand at Ace Hardware and the Elmer's brand worked just fine.

What I did was to first dye with my base color. Seal with blonde shellac. Mix up plaster of paris sort of runny (heavy cream) and dye to color I want in the pores (bit darker than base color). Work in the usual ways. Sand back lightly when dry. Re-shellac if necessary (sand through can allow dye to polka-dot your work if you do a second "lift" of filler). Second lift of filler if needed. Shellac to seal down. Additional top coats including using a glaze if needed.

My test pieces are about two years old now and live in the house near a register for the HVAC. So they experience the maximum variation in my house. No problems with things popping out of the grain no red oak or ash (my two test woods).

[Stan Calow]

I like the color I get with just a coat of BLO (this one finished with clear poly)369849

[Rob Young]

I like the color I get with just a coat of BLO (this one finished with clear poly)369849

Nice color. Having the ability to do a little bit of color manipulation (dyes, stains, glazes) is sometimes helpful when the various parts came from different boards and possibly different trees. Getting things to match up is helpful.

But getting done simply is satisfying!

[Robert Engel]

Well the time has arrived. After a lot of playing around with dyes, I came up with a mixture of amber and medium brown. (Sorry I can't get the orientation changed on pic)

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Next up seal coat with shellac, glaze with gel stain, sand and top coat EM8000.

I want to thank everyone for all their advice I was quite nervous about getting it right. So far, I'm happy.

[Jim Becker]

That is stunning!

[John TenEyck]

Stunning grain. Is it solid wood or veneer. If that is a frame of walnut around the WO, I sure hope it's the latter.

John

[Robert Engel]

Solid. Yes, its walnut.

[Rob Young]

Solid. Yes, its walnut.

Lots of ray fleck!

I think John was referring to the movement of the panel vs the frame.

Q/S white oak at 3' wide over a 10% swing in relative humidity will still move between 1/2" and 5/8". The finish will not stop if from moving, only change the rate at which moisture moves in and out of the wood.

If the frame or table-top mounting method can't accommodate this, stuff happens.

[John TenEyck]

Solid. Yes, its walnut.

How did you deal with seasonal wood movement?

John

[Stan Calow]

Robert, did you sand back after applying the dye to get the contrast, or is the dye taken differently by the rays?

[Robert Engel]

John & Rob,

Well I’m hoping there won’t be a problem. It is kiln dried and the wood has been very stable. Still, I do expect it to shrink some once moved inside, but hopefully not to that extent.

The breadboards are made to accommodate movement. Perhaps the bb didn’t show in the pics.

Stan,

No that is the appearance just after dye. I sanded just lightly before applying shellac. On several test pieces I tried sanding back and also presanding with finer grits prior to dyeing. I didn’t notice an appreciable difference.

I sealed with amber shellac and the glazed with gel stain. The gel stain definitely reduced the pop, but it also gave a lot of depth.

Top coating in process. I’ll post some pics of the finished top soon.

[Robert Engel]

Well here is the end result. A little darker than I was expecting after the gel stain, but still I'm pretty satisfied it seems to blend well with the walnut. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with my first attempt at a project this big.

This project turned out to be a long, drawn out affair. I ended up ripping the top apart twice, once to remove a walnut center strip I didn't like, and another time after realizing I had mixed up the grain patterns (duh)!! I put a gently arc on the breadboard ends which is very attractive.

Then after the top was finalized & glued up, I ended up changing the design of the trestles completely. The original trestles were white oak and had curved pillars. I think it was a good decision. I learned a lot along the way, but mostly I learned that patience can lead to stagnation, similar to "paralysis of analysis".

One word of advice learned the hard way: DON'T sand the pins!! Or do it extremely carefully. There are noticeable divots on some o of the pins where I over sanded with the random orbital. I couldn't reach the pins with my chisel and I was scared of tear out using a plane.

I sprayed two coats of Emtech 2000 semi gloss and topped that with 2 coats of Emtech 8000 satin.

I did a lot of experimenting with different dyes & techniques. I will be posting the some pics of the effects when I get everything together.

But for now, all I can say is this one is in the books, I've go my shop back and


Free at last, Free at last, thank God I'm free at last LOL


Thanks to Jim Becker and everyone else for all the help and advice.

Sorry I couldn't get enough light on the base.

Yes, I will be dying the wedges a little darker ...... eventually :rolleyes:

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[John TenEyck]

Glad to see you installed the breadboards so the panel can move - because it will as the RH changes. My friend built a dining room table a couple of years ago out of African mahogany which is pretty stable. The field moves at least 1/8" on each side of the breadboards with the seasons. He took that into account while building it, but not while finishing it. The first Winter the finish cracked right at the seam where the breadboards meet the field. I hope your table fairs better.

The better way would be to finish the breadboard ends separately and install them afterwards.

John

[Robert Engel]

Thanks John,

Since last month we have been in monsoon type weather here. I was really concerned about spraying the finish. I held off on spraying because of it and finally decided the heck with it I'll see what happens.

I used water based and it all seemed to work out ok.

Since the wet weather has started you can feel the table has expanded just a bit wider than the bb's on one side.

Now that its inside the house, it will go the other way -- not too far I hope. ;)

I had originally planned to store the top inside the house and let it acclimate before doing the bb's. but it just didn't work out it was too heavy to tote back and forth.

[Dave Cav]

That's a nice looking table.

I know it's already finished, (I'm coming in late to this thread) my preferred method of darkening QSWO is by ammonia fuming. It's a lot of trouble but you can easily control the darkness and the results are fantastic. The only problem is the sapwood doesn't darken much.