Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- can someone comment on strengths/weakness?

[Matt Lau]

I'm pretty new to the Neanderthal thing, and have been slowly learning through trial an error.

I've found that Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- have various pros and cons. But I'm not sure if I'm wrong?

I'd like your insights.



Here's mine:
- Japanese
Great blades, sharp, high performance, closer feel to the wood
Technique sensitive, expensive, high maintenance (unstable soles)
Imho, the saws make most sense in pulling on tension-- especially joiners saws.

- Western
Okay blades (hock, LN, LV). Sharp. Good to high performance. Less maintenance due to metal bodies
Con- finicky setup sometimes (older Stanley combo planes). Many newer manufacturer s have poor quality (groz, Stanley)
My understanding is Western spokeshave is superior to Japanese version.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm a novice with Japanese tools, but I'll tell you what I've seen so far, as a starting point.

Japanese saws cut on the pull stroke and people usually pull their planes. Western saws and planes are the opposite. I dont know of any pros/cons here - my guess is it's a "what you're used to" thing. Both certainly work.

My Dozuki saws have no "set" and the teeth are impulse hardened. The pro is that the kerf is very small and the saw stays sharp a long time. The con is that I don't think they are readily sharpenable. You replace the blade. (There may be higher quality saws that are sharpenable - I dont know.)

A big pro for me is that my Dozuki saws are great for fine work and small parts. I think that's because the tooth count is high, plus the lack of "set".

[Noah Magnuson]

I would hesitate to claim actual sharpness is superior in one or the other. Hardness, brittleness, sharpenabilty, etc. often differ between the western and Japanese chisels and planes (can't speak for current Chinese metallurgy), but the level of sharpness can be achieved with either. It is often an issue of whether you tend to work a lot of very hard woods or not whether one functions better or not, but the same can be said even for the many different "western" tool metals.


I definitely find it is worth having a small kit of Japanese saws regardless, and I find the Japanese saws function extremely well in certain cases for me like flush and trim cuts and very fine work, but I really like my western saws for most things and I seem to keep the cut true more easily. I have no experience with Japanese planes. I like my PM-V11 chisels and can't imagine much difference in function between good western and good eastern chisels.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Matt,

- Japanese
My understanding is the Japanese include more of their personal philosophy in their woodworking. One example is of pulling their tools instead of pushing their tools. The way it was explained to me is cutting the wood removes some of the spirit of the wood. The use of a pull stroke of saws and planes is intended to direct this spirit into the worker so the spirit may reside in them and expand their spiritual being.

One of my preferences in hand tools is that it feels comfortable in my hand. Most hooped chisels are not comfortable for me. This is especially true when paring if the top of the chisel is mashed over from hammer blows.

My Japanese pull saws still see some use but my sawing with western saws has become much better. To me the thinness of the pull saw blades requires a bit more discipline to keep to the line.

- Western
There is something available in almost any price range. Of course on the low end of the price scale one is either buying poor quality (also available at higher prices) or one has to do a bit of fettling (again something that may be required on a higher priced item).

Are there new Japanese combo planes? Is this possibly a comparison of things that do not actually compare?

A Japanese plane hasn't yet made it into my shop or hands. Are they less finicky to set up than a western wooden plane? Once one of my bench planes is set up, it stays how it was set until the next time the blade needs some work. My LN #62 had a nick in the blade recently. It took more time to give it a light grinding and honing than it did to get it back to work.
My planes are mostly Stanley. They were plentiful when my first planes were bought and it was my decision to keep to one maker for better part interchangeability.

As said above, my comfort factor when using a tool is important. This is why most of my chisels are socket chisels. It is easy to make my own handle for a socket chisel.

Our feelings about our craft and the tools we use is different for each of us. It is good to investigate different avenues to the same destination. Find what feels good to you and stay with it.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I'm pretty new to the Neanderthal thing, and have been slowly learning through trial an error.

I've found that Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- have various pros and cons. But I'm not sure if I'm wrong?

I think that you're making the mistake of trying to "objectify" what are at heart very subjective preferences.

Take for example your remark that Japanese "saws make the most sense in pulling on tension". I know a lot of people (including myself) who have a strong subjective preference for sawing on the push stroke. It's probably worth noting that basically all saw traditions started out cutting on the pull stroke.

Just pick what works for you, but don't waste time trying to convince yourself or anybody else that it's "best" or even that it has specific objective strengths. That's a fool's errand.

[Prashun Patel]

One thing I like about Japanese saws is that they make it possible to cut some things with the piece flat on the bench instead of held vertically in a vise. You don't have to, but on some things it can be convenient.

while there are differences in make, style, and feel in western vs Japanese tools, I don't think one offers an easier path to superior work. The choice imho is entirely personal.

[Stewie Simpson]

The OPs proposition that all western planes have metal bodies is a misnomer.

[Derek Cohen]

Matt, the factors that first comes to my mind is design (and design philosophy), use, and maintenance. The Japanese and Western tools are almost diametrically opposite in most respects.

First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents. My experience with Chinese designs is more limited, and so - design-wise- they might be inbetween.

Japanese saws are, as you know, designed to be pulled. This way the plates remain in tension, which is necessary as they are very thin. Their teeth can be made very small and high in number which, with the minimal set, allows them to leave a finish quite unmatched by anything the West has to offer (and at a comparable price). The downside is that the saws are fragile and not for the heavy-handed. Western saws are made to be used roughly (I am not suggesting this!). Their thicker plates are needed as they are pushed instead. Larger teeth and more set equate to a rougher finish (I have filed saws with teeth to 20 tpi and set then accordingly, but the finish is no where in the same class).

It is possible to purchase Japanese saws quite cheaply with a performance that is simply superb. I am very happy with the Z-saw range. The downside to these saws is that the teeth are impulse hardened, which means they cannot be sharpened, and instead are replaced. Japanese saws that are sharpenable are possibly do-able by the user (I do not know of anyone who sharpens their own), and more commonly are sent back to Japan to a specialist saw sharpener. This can be both inconvenient and costly. Westen saws are easier to sharpen (larger teeth, more easily available files, and softer steel).

There is a similar issue with blades for planes and chisels. The laminated blades from Japan, even the cheap end of the range, far out perform their Western cousins. The steel is not fancy - high carbon steel - but the hammerising process orients the grain, they are hardened well above Western blades, and then any tendency to chip is controlled by adding a softer layer (usually cast iron). The solid steel blades of the West are cheaper to construct, and buy, but inevitably lack the edge retention of the Japanese blade. There are Western blades made from steels (such as PM-V11 and M4) that rival the Japanese laminated blade, but they then do not compete with many for ease of sharpening (I'm going to contradict myself in a moment). I have Japanese blades that seem to do the impossible - sharpen easily and hold an edge forever. A solid Western steen hardened to the same level would simply chip.

The down side of the Japanese blade is the extra care needed in the sharpening process. Being laminated steel, they are not hollow ground (although many will do so - carefully! - without damaging the temper). The blades are also hollowed at the back (to make it easier to keep flat - the steel there is hard and would otherwise be impossible to hone). Plane blades need to be tapped out. Chisels are straight forward - just lap the back. All this looks more daunting than a Western blade. The recommended honing practice is to freehand on a flat bevel face. Again, one can use a honing guide.

As with Western chisels, the more impact activities (e.g. chopping) requir higher bevel angles. I would not use a Japanese blade below 25 degrees for paring. By comparison with Western blades, as with the saws, Japanese tools deserve more reverance ... but they reward with a higher performance.

Overall, Western planes and chisels are just easier to set up and use, probably because we are all so used to them. I have minimal experience with Japanese planes. Perhaps Brian will say something about the East-West comparison.

Chinese? I am not referring to Western tools copied in China. I have a couple of Chinese laminated plane blades. Overall, they are slightly softer than Japanese, but they are really excellent. I have used Chinese planes for years - they resemble the Japanese but are pushed. The most common example is the Mujingfang range. Superb quality for a mass-produced cheapish plane. The original HNT Gordon bench planes are based on the same design.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

You guys have covered the differences quite well. I use both western and Japanese planes and in practically every other group of tools I use exclusively Japanese tools.

I think it's important to use both and determine which you prefer. I really enjoy the spirit of Japanese tools, it's nice to know that someone on the other end put their sweat into a hand forged tool. I feel similarly when I use my planes made by David Weaver. I feel a certain kinship in this way, they speak to me through their craft. The more I discover about the tools the more I feel I begin to understand the thought process and considerations that went into their making.

[Robert Hazelwood]

My thoughts:

Saws - The mass-produced Japanese saws (ex. Gyokucho) are amazing for what they cost. They cut very fast and leave a clean finish. The Ryoba type of saw is brilliant, you can do so many tasks with one saw. On the other hand they seem a bit more sensitive to bad technique or too much pressure, and they seem to have a little more propensity for the backside of the cut to wander. A large (say 300mm) ryoba is surprisingly fast at big ripping and crosscutting chores. A smaller (say 240 or 210mm) is a nice tenon/carcass saw.

Chisels - I like the standard oire-nomi very well, they are ideal bench/chopping chisels in my opinion. I like the short overall length, which makes them very handy and quick to place in a mark (compared to my vintage western socket chisels which tend to have very long blades). So far the edge retention is noticeably better than anything else I have (and most of those are pretty good). I don't find the sharpening too onerous, even using oil stones. It's not much fun to remove knicks, though, especially if you don't resort to a grinder. Same for adjusting bevel angles. But if you can avoid the knicks then they are quite reasonable to sharpen (not much different from any other tool).

They are pretty expensive, though. The entry level price is roughly on par with Lie-Nielsen, and goes way up from there. At any given price point the fit/finish will be rougher, and the user will have to do more work to get it in shape. The steel should be good though.

Planes - I haven't had as much luck with kanna. At least, I have not been able to get them to quite match a LN #4 as a smoothing plane. Of course mine aren't high end examples, and with more tuning they still might improve, but it's hard for me to imagine it being worth the effort with as good as the western planes are. One thing I have found is that they excel at hogging off endgrain. They are also nice to use in a shooting board or for shooting long grain edges on the benchtop (the plane grip and pull motion are comfortable, and the wood-on-wood action is nice). The pull motion is easier for some oddball tasks.

Same pricing situation as with chisels.

[Steve Voigt]

First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents.


You're kidding, right?

[Brian Holcombe]

Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.

[Patrick Chase]

You're kidding, right?

Well, now we know what it takes to get Steve to post on SMC :-).

Seriously, count me as being more on Steve's side on this one in terms of preference, though as I said above I think it's mostly a subjective thing.

IMO there is one significant objective benefit to Japanese tools that I didn't touch on in my previous post: The Japanese makers didn't debase their mass-market offerings as Western makers like Stanley did, which is why cheap induction-hardened pull saws such as the Z-saws that Derek references wiped the floor with their newly-made Western competitors for quite some time. If you're determined to purchase new equipment and don't have the budget for high-end tools, then IMO the Japanese offerings have some advantages. I think that "great debasement" is what gave the Japanese manufacturers a strong toehold in the Western tool market to begin with.

Once you get into high-end stuff you have to realize that everybody is using the same materials, and playing within the same laws of physics.

[Patrick Chase]

Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.

There are a lot of manufactured Japanese tools on the market, even "high-end" ones (cue one of Stan's diatribes about the new generation of toolmakers adopting rikizai here). Unless the OP is willing to allocate "Brian Holcombe money" to his tool budget he's therefore likely to end up with manufactured stuff either way.

IMO that's not inherently a bad thing, though. There are some very good manufactured tools out there, and IMO the difference between hand-forging and "manufacturing" is rapidly narrowing with the advent of things like PM steels. Why bother pounding the living daylights out of a hunk of metal over a hot forge to refine the grain along one axis when you can buy it processed such that it's similarly refined on all axes?

Don't get me wrong: I am in awe of both the quality of a lot of the mass-market Japanese "manufactured" stuff (see previous post) and of the enduring Japanese tradition of fine hand-toolmaking. I just want to make sure we're not thinking magically here :-)

[Frederick Skelly]

I think that "great debasement" is what gave the Japanese manufacturers a strong toehold in the Western tool market to begin with.

And cars, and steel and....

[Brian Holcombe]

Very true there is plenty of manufacturing in Japanese tools. Most of what I'm referring to are going to range from partially handmade to fully handmade individual makers. This is not necessarily price dependent but there's generally more hand work in the higher end. Lower end are going to use grinders where high end use files and so that is where the roughness comes in for most and something where automated manufacturing has significant improvements in uniformity.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.

Oh I completely understand why the price to fit/finish ratio is the way it is, and I wouldn't say they are overpriced by any means. In fact to have any amount of handwork for what they charge is pretty amazing. My experience has been with chisels in the $50 to $100 range, where in the best case they can do a good job on the forging and lamination, but have to rush a bit through the finishing. To some extent the roughness works with the overall aesthetic. My only real complaint is when the back of the tool is out of sorts- it is quite time consuming to correct this while maintaining a halfway decent ura. I have this in mind because I've spent the better part of this weekend flattening the backs of a set of 10 Kikuhiromaru oire-nomi in white steel #2. Each one with a significant concavity along the back, and a few with twist to boot. At least I can tell the steel is very hard, since my Shaptons seemed slower than usual :)

But in this price range you can get high-end manufactured Western chisels like lie-nielsen or veritas, where you can expect a negligible amount of work to get them in order. I don't think that makes them superior, since what I really want is a plain high-carbon steel run fairly hard. But for someone considering these tools it's something to consider. More is demanded of the user in setting up and maintaining the tool.

I would really like to get my hands on the higher end Japanese tools like those you mentioned. My plan is to slowly acquire some really ace white steel #1 paring chisels, finished with file and sen. These will accompany the more proletarian ws2 bench chisels.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree completely. I don't really place a high value on perfect-perfect. I like a bit of handmade touch, handmade perfection as it were and also agree that the tell-tale signs of quality in my opinion as well beyond the superficial are those that make life easy for setup. Kikuhiromaru can be very good, especially in their white steel #1 tools.

By comparison here is the front, back and close up at the ferrule for;

Konobu;

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8470.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8463.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8471.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8464.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8472.jpg

KuniKei

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8467.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8468.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8469.jpg

Old type Kikuhiromaru (80's stock, they're cleaner currently)

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8465.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8466.jpg

Kunikei and Konobu are filed as far as I can tell, and Konobu is scraped along the inside of the ura for the gouge and the bench chisel is left forge black over what appears to be a ground surface. Kunikei from what I understand is also using a sen for the ura.

These are very accurately done, IMO, but they are not machine perfect.

The steel is wonderful, I have hours upon hours of carving oak on that Konobu gouge and there is not much visible evidence of it, if any.

[Stewie Simpson]

Brian; you might want to rework that cutting edge in photo #4

[Robert Hazelwood]

Thanks for sharing those. The Kunikei in particular is lovely. And the skill to scrape in a neat ura on the gouge...impressive. Your Kikuhiromaru seems a bit like mine, concave on the back leading to removal of more steel near the heel of the blade than you'd like. In time the memory of this weekend's flattening session will fade, ha, and hopefully they will prove to have been worth the effort. I've heard nothing but good things about Kikuhiromaru.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian; you might want to rework that cutting edge in photo #4

The edge is fine, my photography/lighting is to blame.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/img_8473.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for sharing those. The Kunikei in particular is lovely. And the skill to scrape in a neat ura on the gouge...impressive. Your Kikuhiromaru seems a bit like mine, concave on the back leading to removal of more steel near the heel of the blade than you'd like. In time the memory of this weekend's flattening session will fade, ha, and hopefully they will prove to have been worth the effort. I've heard nothing but good things about Kikuhiromaru.

My pleasure!

That's accurate for most of Kikuhiromaru in my experience, some better than others of course. They're great chisels however, these have been through it and are my go-to.

[andy bessette]

DC--excellent post.

My own use has found the Japanese saws to be superior and indispensible. Chisels are split ~50/50 Japanese and western. However my planes are all western: mostly Lie Nielsen, Record, Stanley.

[Stanley Covington]

I'm pretty new to the Neanderthal thing, and have been slowly learning through trial an error. I've found that Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- have various pros and cons. But I'm not sure if I'm wrong? I'd like your insights.

Each tradition excels in some ways, and is deficient in others.

I spent a few days in a city called Dongyang in China some years back having some hand-carved architectural woodworking produced for a project in Tokyo. 500 year tradition of hand-carving absolutely stunning products.
http://www.thisiscolossal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/pagoda-2.jpg


One thing I confirmed is that the craftsman's mind, eye, and hand are far more important than the tools they use. I expected them to use beautiful tools of exceptional design made from excellent materials. The exact opposite was true. The steel was recycled bandsaw blades and files. The chisels were unimpressive compared to Japan and the West. But they got them sharp enough and they cut good enough. Mind, eye and hand executed the style they were trained in superbly. Change the style and details, and there were some problems. Not insurmountable.

http://www.thisiscolossal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/carved-2.jpg

Much of the carving in the cathedrals of Europe is also stunningly deft and beautiful. Same crappy tools.

I also spent a day with the shop owner and visited a tool market an hour or so away by car. It was all poor quality.

The next time I visited Dongyang I took some Japanese chisels, a LN skew rabbet plane, and my Liberty dovetail saw (thanks, Pete!) with me. While my order was being filled, the shop owner and foremen and I had a little competition of who could make a dovetailed drawer (box with no lid) from pre-dimensioned softwood lumber. We had a lot of fun. The guys envied my tools. They had never seen tools so well made, and that cut so well. I gifted them the chisels and plane.

At the same time, I was having steel structural fasteners being produced in another factory in Guangzhou, and visited it regularly. Perhaps things have improved, but I learned that at that time, decent tool-grade steel was not being produced in China. This explained the tools I saw in Dongyang.

I guess my point is that China is still far far behind the West and Japan when it comes to hand cutting tools. But that does NOT mean that I believe their work or craftsmen or traditions are inferior. But a comparison of tools would be meaningless.

So I will compare Western to Japanese tools.

Western chisels vs Japanese chisels: Softer steel than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Simple design.
Merits: Easier to sharpen; Less likely to chip or break; Less expensive.
Demerits: Dull relatively quickly; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; Back difficult to keep flat; Handles won't endure as much abuse.

Western planes (steel body) vs Japanese Planes; Softer steel blades than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Complicated design. Steel sole.
Merits; Easier to sharpen; Blade less likely to chip; Less expensive (depends on grade); Sole/body is more resistant to scratching/wear; Modern ductile-iron products more durable); Less warping: Easy to fettle.
Demerits: Much heavier (not always a disadvantage); Dull quicker; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; More difficult to sharpen (blade is relatively thin and even-hardness at bevel).

Western saws vs Japanese saws (replaceable blade): Much softer teeth than Japanese induction-hardened saws. Simpler teeth. Push instead of pull.
Merits: Much easier to sharpen. Simple/shallow/softer teeth less-likely to break; Thick plate less likely to kink if abused. Push cut provides more power. Better suited to cutting hardwoods.
Demerits: Heavier; Longer (bulkier); Dulls quickly; Simple/shallow/softer tooth design does not cut as smoothly/quickly; Not as energy efficient; Wider kerf; Not as good for cutting softwoods.

I have little use for Western chisels except for special circumstances and for carving (many more shapes, radii, and profiles).

I pick and choose planes. Western planes are better for some things.

I like Western saws for hardwoods, contrary grain, and rough work. Japanese saws for speed and smooth cut and precision. And replaceable blades are often very convenient.

But you already knew all this, right Matt?

But going back to China, the tools are not as important to the final product as mind, eye and hand. So is it the journey or the destination?

Stan

[Derek Cohen]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Derek Cohen http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2735641#post2735641)

First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents.



You're kidding, right?


Hi Steve

No, I meant that. It's a context thing.

In a nutshell, Japan (East) has been producing advanced tool designs and quality steel for centuries longer than the West. The best of the West is reputed to be the 18th century, and since then we have seen standards going up and down. By contrast, the East have produced quality blades for centuries. The West made some extraordinary blades over about 100 years (don't ask for dates), and then tool steel has relied on metallurgical advances (such as powdered metal) to compete against hand hammered and laminated steels from the East. Its a bit like taking a hammer to swot a fly. The saws are like this. All work but ...

There are islands of excellence in the modern day West. A number of boutique makers, including yourself, are offering tools that require no excuse. However, when one looks at the bigger picture, there are probably a lot more makers of mediocracy. I do not know the Eastern market as well as the West, so no doubt there are also the also-rans there. However, what I am familiar with appears to continue a general history of excellence.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[andy bessette]

...Western saws vs Japanese saws...
Merits:..Better suited to cutting hardwoods...

Gotta disagree with this one statement. Otherwise good post.

[Steve Voigt]

Hi Steve

No, I meant that. It's a context thing.

In a nutshell, Japan (East) has been producing advanced tool designs and quality steel for centuries longer than the West. The best of the West is reputed to be the 18th century, and since then we have seen standards going up and down. By contrast, the East have produced quality blades for centuries. The West made some extraordinary blades over about 100 years (don't ask for dates), and then tool steel has relied on metallurgical advances (such as powdered metal) to compete against hand hammered and laminated steels from the East. Its a bit like taking a hammer to swot a fly. The saws are like this. All work but ...

There are islands of excellence in the modern day West. A number of boutique makers, including yourself, are offering tools that require no excuse. However, when one looks at the bigger picture, there are probably a lot more makers of mediocracy. I do not know the Eastern market as well as the West, so no doubt there are also the also-rans there. However, what I am familiar with appears to continue a general history of excellence.



Hi Derek,
You're presenting a moving target here. Your original claim ("Japanese tools are…light years ahead of Western equivalents") was that Japanese tools are more advanced, right now. In the post above, you shift to two quite different claims: That the Japanese were ahead of Western makers historically, and that the average quality of Japanese tools is higher. I think all three of these claims are problematic.

I'd reject the idea that a top-quality Japanese saw is better than a top-quality Western saw, or that a Dai is better than a comparable Western plane. They both have strengths and weaknesses, excelling at certain things and underperforming at others. Japanese saws may produce better surfaces, and it would probably be pretty tough to make kumiko with a Western saw, but a Western saw is easier to maintain, and its surface quality is more than adequate for almost all tasks. A Japanese plane, in the right timber, can sometimes produce a subtly better surface quality, but not always, and the bar for maintaining dai and kanna is much higher than for a Western plan. I think I'd probably rather use a dai for making shoji; I'd definitely rather use Western jack and try planes for turning a big, figured slab into a table top, regardless of wood species. Ultimately the differences are situational and subjective, and certainly one is not "light years" ahead of the other.

Regarding the historical claim, it's true that Japan was making tool steel far earlier. I don't see how that helps anyone buying tools today, but credit where it's due. It's also true that Japanese high carbon steel is unparalleled, and if all I ever did was chop dovetails, I'd use a Japanese chisel. But there is a lot more to a tool than just the cutting edge, and there is a lot more to steel than just edge retention…

Is the average quality of Japanese tools higher? I think that's a tough one. We mostly see only what's exported, and I suspect that this filters out both the very low and very high end, creating a more homogeneous impression than is actually the case. It's also tough to compare apples to apples…there is no Western analogue to the highest-priced Japanese chisels--What Patrick referred to as "Brian Holcombe money." :p

In the end, for a person who wants to spend x dollars on a tool, it comes down to subjective preference, what you want to make, and how you want to work.

[Patrick Chase]

Is the average quality of Japanese tools higher? I think that's a tough one.

If you'd asked that question about new-stock tools in 1990 or even 2000, then the answer would have been a resounding "yes". Now I think the picture is less clear, and it's also less clear if you including older Western tools.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've gotten feedback from native Japanese users, westerners and expats, unsolicited, on my tools and the makers are held in high regard. Basically I've determined through various sources that if Stan says it's good, you can bet it is some of the best stuff available in Japan.

I think it's a matter of personal preferences.

[James Pallas]

With all I have read on this forum and other places and some, whatever small personal experience, I have a hard time buying into some magical thing that makes Japanese tools years ahead. They have adopted technology, reshaping and impulse hardening so saw teeth don't break off ie. I'm pretty sure they are using steel from Nash Ramblers and Edsels to make chisels. The idea of having a hand forged tool is intriguing. Just like all the conversations about PMV11 I would guess that someone knows what spices are in the soup. I use some Japanese tools, not high dollar ones. I don't like having to think about breaking saw teeth or chipping a chisel edge tho. I didn't like A2 for the same reasons.
Jim

[Matt Lau]

I would hesitate to claim actual sharpness is superior in one or the other. Hardness, brittleness, sharpenabilty, etc. often differ between the western and Japanese chisels and planes (can't speak for current Chinese metallurgy), but the level of sharpness can be achieved with either. It is often an issue of whether you tend to work a lot of very hard woods or not whether one functions better or not, but the same can be said even for the many different "western" tool metals.


I definitely find it is worth having a small kit of Japanese saws regardless, and I find the Japanese saws function extremely well in certain cases for me like flush and trim cuts and very fine work, but I really like my western saws for most things and I seem to keep the cut true more easily. I have no experience with Japanese planes. I like my PM-V11 chisels and can't imagine much difference in function between good western and good eastern chisels.

Good points.

I'm definitely a novice here. I guess that I started with some Japan Woodworker "house brand" white steel chisels a while back, and found they were much better than the hardware store chisels at the BORG.
Later, I got some used Matsushige white steel chisels off ebay, which were much, much sharper.
Then, Stan Covington helped me get my first real set of good chisels...which were even better yet! Thanks, Stan!

Over the years, I've tried some ebay chisels--Berg, Witherby, Swan, Butcher, etc...not bad, but the Japanese stuff seems to hold a keener edge.
I have a beautiful paring chisel from Blue spruce-- beautiful and balanced, but the edge isn't close as nice as the Japanese stuff.
Ditto for the Hock Irons, A2 LN iron, and the LV PM-13 irons as well...they work, but not as nice as the Japanese stuff.

This is more pronounced trying to plane end grain spruce.

[Matt Lau]

I'm not trying to troll here, just trying to hear and encapsulate the collective wisdom of guys that use these tools more than me.
Over the years looking over the threads, it seems that these "make sense":

Ripping long boards by hand-- western saw,
Cross cutting big boards-- western saw
small joinery cuts/dovetails/etc-- Japanese saw; Pricier western saws (LN, BadAxe, LV, etc)
Finish planing-- western, Chinese or Japanese planes;
Personally, I find the Japanese plane to work best when I don't have a proper western workbench (which i don't. I have a floorbench and a blum workbench). Also, I live in a very stable climate for humidity/temp, so warping isn't an issue
If I was in 4 seasons zone, Western tools would be much more appealing as the soles won't warp as much (I'd assume).
Chinese (Mujingfang) planes work quite well, but are pretty rough and require lots of work. For high silicate woods, I don't mind abusing mine (it's cheap, and the steel is super tough)
Infill planes are a fourth category IMO, it's western, but reminds me of Japanese planes--heavy laminated blade, mostly wedged in place. Norris planes are slightly different, but I think a hammer may work better on mine.
Chisels-- both would work fine.
Chinese--I haven't gotten them, but assume that it'd work as well as the other guys. Probably cheaper and rougher
Japanese-- gets very sharp. Takes lots of abuse. With ring, handle will not split. I feel closer to the work.
Western-- takes more abuse on blade. I've never gotten comfy with it, but probably because of what I'm used to.
Shoulder plane-- Western one is better. My Japanese "rehab project" was warped and blade impossible to align...I ended up bartering it away on some craigslist thing.
Plough plane-- can't comment. Haven't used either enough.
Spokeshave-- western -- having a metal wear plate is good. I haven't tried the chinese version yet.

Again, I'm a total novice. Only recently have I realized that a real workbench would be really, really nice and necessary!

But yes, I'm used to being broke...so I was mainly looking at the cheaper offerings.
Since this is just a hobby, I can't justify spending a lot of money on stuff if I don't have everything needed for my patient care.
While my accountant says that I'm fine, I feel that there's a lot of ways to improve--especially when I see some stuff from Europe.

[Matt Lau]

Oh, IMHO, one edge for Japanese tools is that you can customize it to your hand much easier than a Stanley.

One of my most treasured tools (if not my MOST treasured tool) is the Kosaburo Gennou.
I'd bought the hammer head from Stan, and tried making a handle for 10 months before calling it quits.
Stan generously helped me make a handle.

It came in the day my office flooded, and I had to remove about 2 gallons of hardened dental stone from the stone bins.
After some mild adjustment with a block and compass plane, it's the best feeling tool I've ever used.

I have to give a big thanks to Stan for his generosity and kindness.


As for fettling a Japanese plane, I'm not the greatest expert.
My understanding (from talking to Hida Tool plane repair guy) is this:
1. Fettle the blade. Make sure no knicks sticking out.
2. Using oil on blade, check the bed. Pare until you have a close, intimate fit.
3. Find high spots/warps on sole. Plane/scrape so that you have 2 (3?) points of contact.
4. In future times, check for flatness prior to heavy use. The body will shift/warp periodically.

Of course, there's a bunch of guys here with more skill than me.

[Matt Lau]

Hey Patrick,

I'm not sure about Brian Holcombe money, but Stan helped me find and buy chisels from a very good smith.
They're plain white steel, with nothing fancy--but handle and cut so well!

At the time, I hadn't paid myself for a year at my new dental office, so these seemed expensive.
But looking back, I am extremely grateful that he'd gotten me such a high quality chisel as a low price.

Since you're nearby, you're welcome to set up a time to try mine out.
In Stan's view, they are every bit as good as the Konobu and Kunikei chisels.
I won't tell you the price, as I'd promised him. But I will say that these are incredibly good chisels at twice the price.

Also, in terms of planes, I can say that the Takeo Nakano planes are extremely high quality and underrated.
They're really special. I got mine from Two pines trading for $175.

-Matt


There are a lot of manufactured Japanese tools on the market, even "high-end" ones (cue one of Stan's diatribes about the new generation of toolmakers adopting rikizai here). Unless the OP is willing to allocate "Brian Holcombe money" to his tool budget he's therefore likely to end up with manufactured stuff either way.

IMO that's not inherently a bad thing, though. There are some very good manufactured tools out there, and IMO the difference between hand-forging and "manufacturing" is rapidly narrowing with the advent of things like PM steels. Why bother pounding the living daylights out of a hunk of metal over a hot forge to refine the grain along one axis when you can buy it processed such that it's similarly refined on all axes?

Don't get me wrong: I am in awe of both the quality of a lot of the mass-market Japanese "manufactured" stuff (see previous post) and of the enduring Japanese tradition of fine hand-toolmaking. I just want to make sure we're not thinking magically here :-)

[Matt Lau]

Hey Stan,

Good to have you chime in here.
It's good to hear your thoughts, as I see you as the Al Carruth of woodworking tools--super knowledgable without a chip to push.

I'm still bumbling along with woodworking.
After a relative's funeral a week before my birthday, I have been really thinking a lot about life and moving forwards.
Previously, it was always about dentistry...work...paying staff...doing my very best dentistry at the cost of everything else.

Now, I've learned not to care as much...have time for friendships...make stuff regardless of whether my tool is the "best".
Life isn't perfect, and it's short. But we may as well enjoy it.

After I've justified my tools by using them (and after getting a girlfriend), maybe I'll seek the honor of buying more tools from/through you?
Your tool recommendations have truly been spot on, and money well spent.

Each tradition excels in some ways, and is deficient in others.

I spent a few days in a city called Dongyang in China some years back having some hand-carved architectural woodworking produced for a project in Tokyo. 500 year tradition of hand-carving absolutely stunning products.
http://www.thisiscolossal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/pagoda-2.jpg


One thing I confirmed is that the craftsman's mind, eye, and hand are far more important than the tools they use. I expected them to use beautiful tools of exceptional design made from excellent materials. The exact opposite was true. The steel was recycled bandsaw blades and files. The chisels were unimpressive compared to Japan and the West. But they got them sharp enough and they cut good enough. Mind, eye and hand executed the style they were trained in superbly. Change the style and details, and there were some problems. Not insurmountable.

http://www.thisiscolossal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/carved-2.jpg

Much of the carving in the cathedrals of Europe is also stunningly deft and beautiful. Same crappy tools.

I also spent a day with the shop owner and visited a tool market an hour or so away by car. It was all poor quality.

The next time I visited Dongyang I took some Japanese chisels, a LN skew rabbet plane, and my Liberty dovetail saw (thanks, Pete!) with me. While my order was being filled, the shop owner and foremen and I had a little competition of who could make a dovetailed drawer (box with no lid) from pre-dimensioned softwood lumber. We had a lot of fun. The guys envied my tools. They had never seen tools so well made, and that cut so well. I gifted them the chisels and plane.

At the same time, I was having steel structural fasteners being produced in another factory in Guangzhou, and visited it regularly. Perhaps things have improved, but I learned that at that time, decent tool-grade steel was not being produced in China. This explained the tools I saw in Dongyang.

I guess my point is that China is still far far behind the West and Japan when it comes to hand cutting tools. But that does NOT mean that I believe their work or craftsmen or traditions are inferior. But a comparison of tools would be meaningless.

So I will compare Western to Japanese tools.

Western chisels vs Japanese chisels: Softer steel than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Simple design.
Merits: Easier to sharpen; Less likely to chip or break; Less expensive.
Demerits: Dull relatively quickly; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; Back difficult to keep flat; Handles won't endure as much abuse.

Western planes (steel body) vs Japanese Planes; Softer steel blades than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Complicated design. Steel sole.
Merits; Easier to sharpen; Blade less likely to chip; Less expensive (depends on grade); Sole/body is more resistant to scratching/wear; Modern ductile-iron products more durable); Less warping: Easy to fettle.
Demerits: Much heavier (not always a disadvantage); Dull quicker; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; More difficult to sharpen (blade is relatively thin and even-hardness at bevel).

Western saws vs Japanese saws (replaceable blade): Much softer teeth than Japanese induction-hardened saws. Simpler teeth. Push instead of pull.
Merits: Much easier to sharpen. Simple/shallow/softer teeth less-likely to break; Thick plate less likely to kink if abused. Push cut provides more power. Better suited to cutting hardwoods.
Demerits: Heavier; Longer (bulkier); Dulls quickly; Simple/shallow/softer tooth design does not cut as smoothly/quickly; Not as energy efficient; Wider kerf; Not as good for cutting softwoods.

I have little use for Western chisels except for special circumstances and for carving (many more shapes, radii, and profiles).

I pick and choose planes. Western planes are better for some things.

I like Western saws for hardwoods, contrary grain, and rough work. Japanese saws for speed and smooth cut and precision. And replaceable blades are often very convenient.

But you already knew all this, right Matt?

But going back to China, the tools are not as important to the final product as mind, eye and hand. So is it the journey or the destination?

Stan

[Warren Mickley]

I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.

[Brian Holcombe]

Oh, IMHO, one edge for Japanese tools is that you can customize it to your hand much easier than a Stanley.

One of my most treasured tools (if not my MOST treasured tool) is the Kosaburo Gennou.
I'd bought the hammer head from Stan, and tried making a handle for 10 months before calling it quits.
Stan generously helped me make a handle.

It came in the day my office flooded, and I had to remove about 2 gallons of hardened dental stone from the stone bins.
After some mild adjustment with a block and compass plane, it's the best feeling tool I've ever used.

I have to give a big thanks to Stan for his generosity and kindness.


As for fettling a Japanese plane, I'm not the greatest expert.
My understanding (from talking to Hida Tool plane repair guy) is this:
1. Fettle the blade. Make sure no knicks sticking out.
2. Using oil on blade, check the bed. Pare until you have a close, intimate fit.
3. Find high spots/warps on sole. Plane/scrape so that you have 2 (3?) points of contact.
4. In future times, check for flatness prior to heavy use. The body will shift/warp periodically.

Of course, there's a bunch of guys here with more skill than me.

Absolutely, Stan has helped me tremendously!

[Patrick Chase]

I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.

Those chisels are by and large hand-forged from HCS, broadly similar to white steel. Western makers were producing a lot of laminated edge tools back then, so that isn't unique either.

Japan is mineral-poor and imports its iron, so I don't understand Stan's claim that it's somehow "of higher quality".

As I said earlier, I think that a lot of people in this thread are making the mistake of "objectifying" largely subjective differences. We humans seem to have some bizarre need to justify our preferences with claims of superiority.

[Brian Holcombe]

They do import some steel from Sweden, but much of it is produced by Hitachi.

As far as sophistication goes, Japanese blade smiths were working with polishers as to be able to examine the grain structure of their end product. I don't know if that was also done in the west and if so to what degree. As far as I'm aware they were doing this as early or earlier than the 14th century.

With respect to tools many Japanese smiths are using highly scientific analysis with traditional method to understand and improve upon their product. They make a product capable of skimming 2 micron shavings from a board as well as perform beautifully in everyday work.

[Derek Cohen]

I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.

Exactly Warren. My point was that the West did make blades of this quality ... for a relatively short period of time. However, this standard has been maintained in Japan for some centuries.

In what way would you say that the English blades of 1850 were more sophisticated?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I have been using chisels made in England before 1850. They are very easy to sharpen, have a very fine edge and have terrific edge life. I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.

Could it be sophistication is in the eye of the beholder?

It never occurred to me that psychology had anything to do with sophistication.


sophisticated |səˈfistəˌkādəd|
adjective
(of a machine, system, or technique) developed to a high degree of complexity

Which is more "developed to a high degree of complexity," Japanese chisels or the chisels made in England before 1850?

jtk

[Noah Magnuson]

I read it as playing with the word like they were well-bred, learned, stuffy etc. I took it as him making a joke, but maybe not.


Could it be sophistication is in the eye of the beholder?

It never occurred to me that psychology had anything to do with sophistication.



Which is more "developed to a high degree of complexity," Japanese chisels or the chisels made in England before 1850?

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Those chisels are by and large hand-forged from HCS, broadly similar to white steel. Western makers were producing a lot of laminated edge tools back then, so that isn't unique either.

Japan is mineral-poor and imports its iron, so I don't understand Stan's claim that it's somehow "of higher quality".

As I said earlier, I think that a lot of people in this thread are making the mistake of "objectifying" largely subjective differences. We humans seem to have some bizarre need to justify our preferences with claims of superiority.

Patrick:

It is human nature to want to rank things. It is often pointless, but humans will never stop doing it. Do you dispute this? The OP asks newbie questions. Shall we try to answer his questions?

Some things are indeed subjective. But much can be measured and tested. Hand filed/grinder finished; Flat back/hollow back; Steel hooped handle/leather washer handle; Hard/soft; Long/short; Chip/dent; Warp/stable; Number of moving parts; Cost; Manufacturing time; Impurity levels; Carbide distribution. Such things are not subjective. Do you dispute this? You know this is true, and take great joy in pointing it out with most of your posts. It is strange for you to dismiss facts.

Japan has little iron ore, and imports all of what it uses. So why does "mineral poor" by itself cast doubt on my claim of"higher quality?" Your logic is puzzling. Is the North Korean blockade of the world's ports preventing ships from traveling between Narvik and Kobe such that only the crappy pig iron from NK is available to Japan?

Technology has changed a lot in the last 50 years. Impurities are easily measurable by anyone with the money to buy the tools. Impurities impact performance and control of them is critical to quality. Do you dispute this? Dig out the chemical analysis, and do the comparison.

I assumed Mat was talking about commercially-available new tools, not antiques. Was I mistaken? He tends to buy junk from Ebay, obviously. I assumed this is because he is cheap, and not a collector of antique tools.

Laminated chisels and plane blades hand-forged from HCS were indeed standard in Europe and the US 200 years ago. Many of those tools were breathtakingly excellent. But only the Japanese make commercially-available off-the-shelf laminated-steel tools nowadays. They are unique. Not subjective. Do you dispute this?

Warren, as usual, is comparing antique tools that are no longer commonly available, but which he loves, with tools he has never used. It is interesting, but unfortunate since it only "sabotages" the discussion using the original meaning of the word.

[Stanley Covington]

Gotta disagree with this one statement. Otherwise good post.

Allow me to qualify. I am speaking to replaceable-blade saws with induction-hardened teeth cutting hard wood, rather than hardwood/ Some hardwoods are soft, but others are hard and tend to break the teeth of most such saws. They are simply more fragile. People with a lot of skill and/or experience work around this easily. But don't forget, I am answering Matt's questions, and he is neither experienced nor skilled.

[Stanley Covington]

With all I have read on this forum and other places and some, whatever small personal experience, I have a hard time buying into some magical thing that makes Japanese tools years ahead. They have adopted technology, reshaping and impulse hardening so saw teeth don't break off ie. I'm pretty sure they are using steel from Nash Ramblers and Edsels to make chisels. The idea of having a hand forged tool is intriguing. Just like all the conversations about PMV11 I would guess that someone knows what spices are in the soup. I use some Japanese tools, not high dollar ones. I don't like having to think about breaking saw teeth or chipping a chisel edge tho. I didn't like A2 for the same reasons.
Jim

I agree with your objection to "magical." There are a lot of wholesalers and distributors that frantically promote such a viewpoint of Japanese tools. It is lies to put money in their pockets. No one who makes a living with such tools believes a word of it. You would be wise to label anyone who promotes such a dishonest fanciful viewpoint as a crook (aka "marketing genius").

There is a lot of hype in Japan too. But there is a difference. Japanese people have been obsessed with sharp cutting tools for centuries. It is a part of the national memory. The Brits have the Tower and the Crown Jewels. The Americans have the Liberty bell and Declaration of Independence. The French have the Louvre and Versailles. The Japanese have an ancient sword (Kusanagi) as a national regalia (although it has never been seen in public and may not even exist anymore). Sharp things matter greatly in Japan.

Ask any sushi chef in Tokyo whether or not the cutting ability of his knives make a difference in the flavor of his foods. Ask any temple carpenter if the cutting ability and durability of finishing plane's blade has any impact on the quality of his work. These people complain like harpies and return tools as defective that do not meet their expectations. Not so much in the West. Western manufacturers are focused on making a usable (tool-like?) product, with a statistically-acceptable number of defects, at a price their customers will pay. The result has been lowered expectations and debased quality from what it once was in the the West. Americans nowadays place highest priority on large volume at low cost, and do not angrily complain and demand refunds and badmouth low quality tools.

It wasn't always this way in America.

I am afraid the scrap metal from Nash Ramblers and Edsels turned red and went away long ago! :) I understand from direct contacts with the manufacturers of high-quality tool steel in Japan that they put some carefully-sorted scrap from known sources into the pot, not cubed cars from Mexican junkyards. There is a lot of chemical testing of scrap before it goes into the pot, which is unusual in the steel world. The majority is Swedish pig-iron (ingots), I am told.

The thing about manufacturing steel is that, like most things, steel makers simply make the steel that their customer wants at the price point they will pay. Those buyers in turn sell to others, and down the line until it ends up in our hands. I hope Larry Frank chimes in and shares his professional expertise on the subject with us, even though he dislikes HC steel.

When making steel, one can easily add chemicals to the pot (cost issues are not irrelevant, of course), but it is expensive to remove or eliminate many chemicals. So if the metal in the pot starts out with too much phosphorus, for example, one can add the chemicals and control the temperatures and do the careful mixing that will remove Phosphorus, but this costs money and brain damage. More efficient to start with a pot of purer steel. Ergo Swedish steel and carefully selected scrap.

But the demand for high-quality HC tool steel is relatively low. A common complaint blacksmiths here in Japan frequently make is that Hitachi can't or won't supply the high-quality steel they want anymore. White Paper and Blue Paper steel are prime examples. Demand is too low to make a pot every month, I am told.

BTW, something I have observed on this and other forums that is very different from Japan, and I think highlights an interesting difference between the US and Japan in consumer products like tools and washing machines and automobiles. If someone complains about a poor-quality product on a US forum, he is soon silenced by the moderators. I assume this is because the forums are dependent on funding from retailers and wholesalers. Complaints, true or not, are not tolerated for long. In any case, Americans tend to think "that's just his opinion," ignore the complaint, and mind their business. Japan, however, is a very homogenous society, where people think alike. The Herd. People talk and people listen. A bad reputation quickly spreads and is fatal. Lawyers, courts, PR consultants, and conflicted moderators have no control over public opinion. Companies are therefore very careful of their reputation and take complaints very very seriously. This is the forge in which the Japanese automobile manufacturing industry was hammered. Not so the US, as anyone over 50 years of age will differentiate.

[Jim Koepke]

The result has been debased quality from what it once was in the the West. Americans do not complain and demand refunds and badmouth low quality tools.

Some will complain. The problem is there are too many people who think it is a smart thing to go to a store, buy a tool, use it for a day and then take it back saying it isn't what they wanted. Many Americans do not take much pride in their tools. I have known more than one person who tends to leave good tools where he last used them. His back yard has lots of rust to hunt.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Some will complain. The problem is there are too many people who think it is a smart thing to go to a store, buy a tool, use it for a day and then take it back saying it isn't what they wanted. Many Americans do not take much pride in their tools. I have known more than one person who tends to leave good tools where he last used them. His back yard has lots of rust to hunt.

jtk

Dishonesty is despicable, but as you say, many think it is clever.

[Stanley Covington]

Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.

Konobu's (Ito san's) filework is stunningly beautiful. I have spent many hours in his smithy watching him shape and file his products. It is a deceptively difficult process which he carries out using simple tools and with a sore back. It would be difficult to find a purer artisan.

[Warren Mickley]

The English chisels I use sharpen very easily and take a fine edge, yet they are tough and not at all brittle. They do not chip, bend or fold in use and the edge lasts a long time. With less sophisticated chisels, there are trade-offs between brittleness and toughness, longevity and sharpening ease.

[Brian Holcombe]

The English chisels I use sharpen very easily and take a fine edge, yet they are tough and not at all brittle. They do not chip, bend or fold in use and the edge lasts a long time. With less sophisticated chisels, there are trade-offs between brittleness and toughness, longevity and sharpening ease.

This is how I would describe my Japanese chisels.

[Derek Cohen]

The English chisels I use sharpen very easily and take a fine edge, yet they are tough and not at all brittle. They do not chip, bend or fold in use and the edge lasts a long time. With less sophisticated chisels, there are trade-offs between brittleness and toughness, longevity and sharpening ease.

Warren, you still need to explain what you wrote earlier ....
I am no psychologist, but I think they are more sophisticated than the Japanese chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Hazelwood]

I don't like having to think about breaking saw teeth or chipping a chisel edge tho. I didn't like A2 for the same reasons.
Jim

The replaceable-blade saws I have used (mostly Gyokucho) are not particularly fragile. I use them for everything, any species (mostly typical cabinet hardwoods), including heavy ripping and resawing in white oak, hickory, etc., and don't worry about damaging the teeth. It's not something I'm thinking about while cutting. The only tooth I have broken was from hitting a staple with a Vaughan BearSaw (not sure if that is even Japanese, but it has the same tooth pattern). That saw still works fine, though.

The chisels are probably more variable, especially on the low end, but the good ones are not prone to chip doing normal work with good technique (not much prying or twisting in a cut, etc.) Although when I watch videos of Japanese craftsmen they are not babying the tools by any means. I think if you do something like drop the tool on a hard floor, hit metal, chop into a thin hard dowel, or something along those lines, they may chip more easily than a softer tool. In my experience when they do chip it is not catastrophic, but still they are more work to restore than western chisels, especially if you observe the usual taboo on power grinding. They would not be my first choice for a beater tool, but in the shop I'm not very worried about their being damaged.

On, A2, I didn't like it either, but the chipping was of a different kind- tiny chipping at the very edge creating a sort of sawtooth edge and leaving lines on the work. I had to sharpen at 35 degrees or more to mitigate that. These micro chips were barely visible and not difficult to sharpen out, but really limited the usefulness of the blade IMO, since I don't really want 35 degree edges on everything (or much of anything). Hard, plain carbon steel should be able to take a more acute edge angle without this micro chipping, and wear gracefully until its time to resharpen. That's what a good J chisel will be like.

[James Pallas]

I agree with your objection to "magical." There are a lot of wholesalers and distributors that frantically promote such a viewpoint of Japanese tools. It is lies to put money in their pockets. No one who makes a living with such tools believes a word of it. You would be wise to label anyone who promotes such a dishonest fanciful viewpoint as a crook (aka "marketing genius").

There is a lot of hype in Japan too. But there is a difference. Japanese people have been obsessed with sharp cutting tools for centuries. It is a part of the national memory. The Brits have the Tower and the Crown Jewels. The Americans have the Liberty bell and Declaration of Independence. The French have the Louvre and Versailles. The Japanese have an ancient sword (Kusanagi) as a national regalia (although it has never been seen in public and may not even exist anymore). Sharp things matter greatly in Japan.

Ask any sushi chef in Tokyo whether or not the cutting ability of his knives make a difference in the flavor of his foods. Ask any temple carpenter if the cutting ability and durability of finishing plane's blade has any impact on the quality of his work. These people complain like harpies and return tools as defective that do not meet their expectations. Not so much in the West. Western manufacturers are focused on making a usable (tool-like?) product, with a statistically-acceptable number of defects, at a price their customers will pay. The result has been lowered expectations and debased quality from what it once was in the the West. Americans nowadays place highest priority on large volume at low cost, and do not angrily complain and demand refunds and badmouth low quality tools.

It wasn't always this way in America.

I am afraid the scrap metal from Nash Ramblers and Edsels turned red and went away long ago! :) I understand from direct contacts with the manufacturers of high-quality tool steel in Japan that they put some carefully-sorted scrap from known sources into the pot, not cubed cars from Mexican junkyards. There is a lot of chemical testing of scrap before it goes into the pot, which is unusual in the steel world. The majority is Swedish pig-iron (ingots), I am told.

The thing about manufacturing steel is that, like most things, steel makers simply make the steel that their customer wants at the price point they will pay. Those buyers in turn sell to others, and down the line until it ends up in our hands. I hope Larry Frank chimes in and shares his professional expertise on the subject with us, even though he dislikes HC steel.

When making steel, one can easily add chemicals to the pot (cost issues are not irrelevant, of course), but it is expensive to remove or eliminate many chemicals. So if the metal in the pot starts out with too much phosphorus, for example, one can add the chemicals and control the temperatures and do the careful mixing that will remove Phosphorus, but this costs money and brain damage. More efficient to start with a pot of purer steel. Ergo Swedish steel and carefully selected scrap.

But the demand for high-quality HC tool steel is relatively low. A common complaint blacksmiths here in Japan frequently make is that Hitachi can't or won't supply the high-quality steel they want anymore. White Paper and Blue Paper steel are prime examples. Demand is too low to make a pot every month, I am told.

BTW, something I have observed on this and other forums that is very different from Japan, and I think highlights an interesting difference between the US and Japan in consumer products like tools and washing machines and automobiles. If someone complains about a poor-quality product on a US forum, he is soon silenced by the moderators. I assume this is because the forums are dependent on funding from retailers and wholesalers. Complaints, true or not, are not tolerated for long. In any case, Americans tend to think "that's just his opinion," ignore the complaint, and mind their business. Japan, however, is a very homogenous society, where people think alike. The Herd. People talk and people listen. A bad reputation quickly spreads and is fatal. Lawyers, courts, PR consultants, and conflicted moderators have no control over public opinion. Companies are therefore very careful of their reputation and take complaints very very seriously. This is the forge in which the Japanese automobile manufacturing industry was hammered. Not so the US, as anyone over 50 years of age will differentiate.

Thanks for the informative reply Stanley. I'm not one to abuse tools so I take the cautions to heart. If it is said "don't twist or pry" than I try not to do so. It's the same for saws. If I'm going to saw something I look for knots and such before I start. If I have a Japanese saw out to work with and see a knot it causes me to get out a western saw. It is the same to me as you don't hit cold chisels, or hardened nails with a claw hammer or you don't debone with a fillet knife. I agree that in today's western world there is a lot of cheap junk out there along with some very overpriced stuff. The cheap stuff is for the throw away group and the high price is for another bunch. The real crafts people are stuck between.
Jim

[James Pallas]

The replaceable-blade saws I have used (mostly Gyokucho) are not particularly fragile. I use them for everything, any species (mostly typical cabinet hardwoods), including heavy ripping and resawing in white oak, hickory, etc., and don't worry about damaging the teeth. It's not something I'm thinking about while cutting. The only tooth I have broken was from hitting a staple with a Vaughan BearSaw (not sure if that is even Japanese, but it has the same tooth pattern). That saw still works fine, though.

The chisels are probably more variable, especially on the low end, but the good ones are not prone to chip doing normal work with good technique (not much prying or twisting in a cut, etc.) Although when I watch videos of Japanese craftsmen they are not babying the tools by any means. I think if you do something like drop the tool on a hard floor, hit metal, chop into a thin hard dowel, or something along those lines, they may chip more easily than a softer tool. In my experience when they do chip it is not catastrophic, but still they are more work to restore than western chisels, especially if you observe the usual taboo on power grinding. They would not be my first choice for a beater tool, but in the shop I'm not very worried about their being damaged.

On, A2, I didn't like it either, but the chipping was of a different kind- tiny chipping at the very edge creating a sort of sawtooth edge and leaving lines on the work. I had to sharpen at 35 degrees or more to mitigate that. These micro chips were barely visible and not difficult to sharpen out, but really limited the usefulness of the blade IMO, since I don't really want 35 degree edges on everything (or much of anything). Hard, plain carbon steel should be able to take a more acute edge angle without this micro chipping, and wear gracefully until its time to resharpen. That's what a good J chisel will be like.
Robert, I have the same type saws and I have to say that I haven't lost a tooth on any of them. I also have a few Japanese chisels and haven't chipped one yet. All of this is probably because I try not to be hard on them. Maybe too much caution on my part. Or maybe because I fear my technique is not up to keeping those tools from harm.:)
Jim

[Frederick Skelly]

I agree with your objection to "magical." There are a lot of wholesalers and distributors that frantically promote such a viewpoint of Japanese tools. It is lies to put money in their pockets. No one who makes a living with such tools believes a word of it. You would be wise to label anyone who promotes such a dishonest fanciful viewpoint as a crook (aka "marketing genius").

There is a lot of hype in Japan too. But there is a difference. Japanese people have been obsessed with sharp cutting tools for centuries. It is a part of the national memory. The Brits have the Tower and the Crown Jewels. The Americans have the Liberty bell and Declaration of Independence. The French have the Louvre and Versailles. The Japanese have an ancient sword (Kusanagi) as a national regalia (although it has never been seen in public and may not even exist anymore). Sharp things matter greatly in Japan.

Ask any sushi chef in Tokyo whether or not the cutting ability of his knives make a difference in the flavor of his foods. Ask any temple carpenter if the cutting ability and durability of finishing plane's blade has any impact on the quality of his work. These people complain like harpies and return tools as defective that do not meet their expectations. Not so much in the West. Western manufacturers are focused on making a usable (tool-like?) product, with a statistically-acceptable number of defects, at a price their customers will pay. The result has been lowered expectations and debased quality from what it once was in the the West. Americans nowadays place highest priority on large volume at low cost, and do not angrily complain and demand refunds and badmouth low quality tools.

It wasn't always this way in America.

I am afraid the scrap metal from Nash Ramblers and Edsels turned red and went away long ago! :) I understand from direct contacts with the manufacturers of high-quality tool steel in Japan that they put some carefully-sorted scrap from known sources into the pot, not cubed cars from Mexican junkyards. There is a lot of chemical testing of scrap before it goes into the pot, which is unusual in the steel world. The majority is Swedish pig-iron (ingots), I am told.

The thing about manufacturing steel is that, like most things, steel makers simply make the steel that their customer wants at the price point they will pay. Those buyers in turn sell to others, and down the line until it ends up in our hands. I hope Larry Frank chimes in and shares his professional expertise on the subject with us, even though he dislikes HC steel.

When making steel, one can easily add chemicals to the pot (cost issues are not irrelevant, of course), but it is expensive to remove or eliminate many chemicals. So if the metal in the pot starts out with too much phosphorus, for example, one can add the chemicals and control the temperatures and do the careful mixing that will remove Phosphorus, but this costs money and brain damage. More efficient to start with a pot of purer steel. Ergo Swedish steel and carefully selected scrap.

But the demand for high-quality HC tool steel is relatively low. A common complaint blacksmiths here in Japan frequently make is that Hitachi can't or won't supply the high-quality steel they want anymore. White Paper and Blue Paper steel are prime examples. Demand is too low to make a pot every month, I am told.

BTW, something I have observed on this and other forums that is very different from Japan, and I think highlights an interesting difference between the US and Japan in consumer products like tools and washing machines and automobiles. If someone complains about a poor-quality product on a US forum, he is soon silenced by the moderators. I assume this is because the forums are dependent on funding from retailers and wholesalers. Complaints, true or not, are not tolerated for long. In any case, Americans tend to think "that's just his opinion," ignore the complaint, and mind their business. Japan, however, is a very homogenous society, where people think alike. The Herd. People talk and people listen. A bad reputation quickly spreads and is fatal. Lawyers, courts, PR consultants, and conflicted moderators have no control over public opinion. Companies are therefore very careful of their reputation and take complaints very very seriously. This is the forge in which the Japanese automobile manufacturing industry was hammered. Not so the US, as anyone over 50 years of age will differentiate.

Thanks for the insights Stan! I enjoyed reading this,
Fred

[Patrick McCarthy]

Stan, I also appreciate the insightful comments. Thank you, Patrick

[Stanley Covington]

The replaceable-blade saws I have used (mostly Gyokucho) are not particularly fragile. I use them for everything, any species (mostly typical cabinet hardwoods), including heavy ripping and resawing in white oak, hickory, etc., and don't worry about damaging the teeth. It's not something I'm thinking about while cutting. The only tooth I have broken was from hitting a staple with a Vaughan BearSaw (not sure if that is even Japanese, but it has the same tooth pattern). That saw still works fine, though.

The chisels are probably more variable, especially on the low end, but the good ones are not prone to chip doing normal work with good technique (not much prying or twisting in a cut, etc.) Although when I watch videos of Japanese craftsmen they are not babying the tools by any means. I think if you do something like drop the tool on a hard floor, hit metal, chop into a thin hard dowel, or something along those lines, they may chip more easily than a softer tool. In my experience when they do chip it is not catastrophic, but still they are more work to restore than western chisels, especially if you observe the usual taboo on power grinding. They would not be my first choice for a beater tool, but in the shop I'm not very worried about their being damaged.

On, A2, I didn't like it either, but the chipping was of a different kind- tiny chipping at the very edge creating a sort of sawtooth edge and leaving lines on the work. I had to sharpen at 35 degrees or more to mitigate that. These micro chips were barely visible and not difficult to sharpen out, but really limited the usefulness of the blade IMO, since I don't really want 35 degree edges on everything (or much of anything). Hard, plain carbon steel should be able to take a more acute edge angle without this micro chipping, and wear gracefully until its time to resharpen. That's what a good J chisel will be like.

Robert

I am very accomplished at breaking things. Since I was a small child, my dedication to destruction has been unwavering. My favorite classes in school and the part of research I enjoyed the most were materials engineering because I got to break thing and figure out why when and how.

I use my tools hard, and learn their limits early. Not abuse (well, maybe abuse if judged by the results) but always pushing for greater speed. I know that Japanese saws are more fragile because I have broken teeth and kinked blades of all types of saws, and do not feel bad about it.

As Derek wisely pointed out some time ago, allowing a Japanese saws blade to get too far out of a straight line when cutting can tear off teeth. Too much force can too. If one tooth breaks off, it will damage a dozen teeth that strike it as the stroke continues. Western saws, as you know, have softer ( softer frequently equates to tougher in metals) teeth that are shorter and less likely to break. In my experience (David Weaver, a Japanese sawsmith, a temple carpenter and I did side by side drag races) Japanese saws cut faster. That is why I am convinced I need the speed, cleaner cut, sharpness, and often greater precision of Japanese saws as well as the toughness, ease of sharpening, and longer reach of my Western saws.

I think the damage to my chisels and planes has been mostly due to striking embedded mineral particles in the wood, and also to allowing a bending force to develop at the cutting edge.

A recent case surprised the heck out of me. A Construction project I managed in Yokohama and completed last April had a "wet" engawa (kind of a wooden porch jutting out from the building) and projecting out into a garden built on an upper level as an extension of a restaurant. The deck was made from Ipe. I had the GC's sub replace several planks because they were as black as ebony, and not the medium brown the Owner selected. Anyway, one of those planks found its way to my little woodshop, and I made it into a base for my favorite sharpening stone. The ends of this base are rounded and curve down. I cut them using a good chisel ( not my best, but still good) in the 10 pc set I keep handy mounted to my tool chests lid.

The hardness of the Ipe, the silica, and the angle of the cut combined with my hammer's joy caused the chisels ( actually 3 chisels) to chip like a sonovabitch. This black Ipe likewise tore up my plane blade.

I have not repaired the chisel yet and will try to post some pictures at a later time.

My point is that I would have been wiser to be less impatient and choose my tools more wisely, e.g. use my LN plane with its A2 blade, and my old yellow plastic handle ( you know, the one with the steel cap) Stanley chisel to work this demonic wood. Both tool's blades would have immediately dulled and gone ragged, but would have kept cutting after a fashion probably without serious chipping.

I was careful to use my Bishop back saw to cut the wood, so no teeth were broken.

If you manage to always use the right tool, and use it properly, I am sure you will continue to have good results.

Stan

[Prashun Patel]

"If someone complains about a poor-quality product on a US forum, he is soon silenced by the moderators. I assume this is because the forums are dependent on funding from retailers and wholesalers. Complaints, true or not, are not tolerated for long. In any case, Americans tend to think "that's just his opinion," ignore the complaint, and mind their business."

Stan, I too enjoyed your post. Very insightful. And I certainly take your broader point about what reputation means in Japanese vs Western contexts. Not meaning to do diminish that, I will say, though at least here on SMC, complaints about vendors are not silenced because of sponsorship reasons. They are silenced when they appear to be unsubstantiated, or when the supplier does not appear to have been given a fair chance to respond. In this sense, I think we DO play judge, but it's not for partisan reasons. It's for (at least some of us) out of a spirit of fairness. That is not to say we get it right all the time.

[Stanley Covington]

"... we DO play judge, but it's not for partisan reasons. It's for (at least some of us) out of a spirit of fairness. That is not to say we get it right all the time.

Sorry if I cast aspersions on your motives. That was not my intention. My comments were general in nature.


But I must observe that even when the judgement is not "partisan" (not sure what "partisan" means in this case) the decision to quash is almost always still based on opinion, and personal "feelings" about fairness, not evidence or even an effort to independently confirm the cause of the complaint.

Trolls exist, and must be dealt with. Many exaggerate, and such opinions must be judged by the readers. Moderators are necessary.

But does muzzling serve the best interests of the forum members who need to make decisions about whether or not to lay down hard earned cash for possibly-problematic tools? I think not.

Marketing is balls-out over-the-top and very slick nowadays. Little of it can be trusted.

I always want to hear the opinions and experiences about quality, performance, value, customer service, etc. of people that have actually bought and used a product, or that at least have useful insight into it. Having those opinions silenced decreases the value of a forum, IMO.

[Prashun Patel]

... the decision to quash is almost always still based on opinion, and personal "feelings" about fairness, not evidence or even an effort to independently confirm the cause of the complaint.



Fair assessment.

[Matt Lau]

Allow me to qualify. I am speaking to replaceable-blade saws with induction-hardened teeth cutting hard wood, rather than hardwood/ Some hardwoods are soft, but others are hard and tend to break the teeth of most such saws. They are simply more fragile. People with a lot of skill and/or experience work around this easily. But don't forget, I am answering Matt's questions, and he is neither experienced nor skilled.

Ouch!! But so true. I am neither experienced nor skilled.

Thankfully, I'm still alive and have time to improve.
In the meanwhile, I'm in the wide-eyed excitement new guy stage.
It still astounds me to cut a straight line with a handsaw or to have a clean cut with a chisel...baby steps, to you; superpowers to me.

[Mark Ackman]

First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents.


I see Steve’s point that this one quote taken out of context is totally absurd. Just look at planes. Western Planes have had far more intricate and complex designs for at least 2 centuries... Japanese plane makers just recently decided to add chip breakers after 500 or so years, bringing the new total parts count to two metal wedges and one wooden block (with a pin, but that doesn’t move).

I own both styles of tools in every category and find strengths and weaknesses in both, but pure sophistication... just count total moving parts, total precisely measured parts, total parts providing added functions. Words mean things and sophistication is just the opposite of simplicity. Sophisticated is quite literally the opposite of a block of wood with an iron wedge driven in.

Japanese tools are arguably more evolved or refined for their intended purpose. For example I own some fine old Ward &Payne chisels and I love them, but they can’t match the 15mm white steel chisel Stan sent me when it comes to benchtop mallet or hammer driven chopping tasks. The Japanese pore nomi is as evolved as a malleted-chopping device can be. The edge retention is also better and it either doesn’t chip or BARELY micro chips in the hardest use I can put it thru. The ergonomics are not great for paring, but then There is a separately-evolved tool for that task. There is a proper tool for each job vs a Stanley 45.

I think if you want to be a minimalist or you enjoy taking a creative problem solving approach to woodworking, Western tools in many cases are more flexible, and can be had cheaper in the US. If you want the most refined current production edge tools or if you’re ok with becoming a tool collector, just explore the Japanese tool rabbit hole. Start with a chisel or two from Stan and judge whether or not it’s worth experimenting further. Be warned though, the tools WILL multiply and the ones worth owning are not cheap.

[Matt Lau]

Hey Mark,

I'm with Derek on this one.

In my bedroom, I have a Lee Valley Custom Jointer, a Norris A5 (refurbing), Lie Nielson 103, Three different router planes (Walker Moore, Old wooden router, LV router), Mujingfang high angles, and two Takeo Nakano planes.
I have the LA small smoother and LA jack in my workshop.
While the Lee Valley is the most "sophisticated" (with multiple setscrews, milled everything, superb QC), I prefer my Japanese planes.

Sure it's dead flat. It's truly nice and allows repeatable, very high performance.
However, it's not as intuitive in use (and yes, I'm self taught at both systems; and started with western planes).

In my profession (dentistry), we use all sorts of gadgets.
There's a lot of different gimmicks that involve "sophistication"--Stuart Full Mouth Articulators, TENS units, incisal tracings, setscrews on teeth, Centric Relation Mountings, etc.
However, IMHO the highest praise is for tools/results that dissappear and let you get the results you desire with the least amount of trouble.

Yesterday, I presented a case to a lady with worn down teeth.
It's taken me about 5 hours of intensive workups, diagnostics, and consultations prior to seeing her.
When we had her in the chair, the result was some plastic shells that would allow her to feel/see how her final result would be.

These plastic shells are using maybe $2 of material---but took about $2500 of tooling, stone, and man hours to make.
Very simple-- but very not.

IMHO, the Japanese tools are the same way.
Very simple--but very not.

[Brian Holcombe]

I tend to agree that while simple, these tools are thoughtfully designed and successfully use material to its maximum ability.
Reading the word sophisticated I understand its literal definition to be very similar to 'complex' and yet I interpret the word to mean nuanced when it is applied to tools as opposed to its meaning when applied to intellectual though in which complexity has a positive connotation. Complex in regard to tools can be considered a poor attribute, but not always.

I think an 18th century type western plane is highly nuanced. I had a Japanese TV crew at my shop recently to film, they wanted to see the use of Japanese tools and techniques and yet they were very interested in David Weaver's try plane, it is very obviously a thoughtfully designed tool.

One being excellent does not make the other not excellent.

[Matt Lau]

Totally true!

And I'm still a sucker for setscrews and milled surfaces.

Btw, Brian, for the longest time I thought you were a somber British old guy in a suit with a pipe.
Where did you get your prior avatar photo from?

[Brian Holcombe]

I used it to hide the truth that I am actually a Japanese wood block print :D

The previous was King Edward, I am a clothes bound and he is admired in those circles for being always very well dressed.

[Derek Cohen]

Sophisticated ... ? There has been a few eyebrows raised about my use of this term. For some, there is agreement and others clearly not so.

There are other descriptors that spring to mind when I think about Japanese tools: elegant .. synergistic .. are just two more. I am especially drawn to art, furniture .. and tool .. designs that pare away the fat and leave you with just enough to be enough. That to me is the correct use of the term "minimalism" ... not having less tools, but having a simple yet complete and ergonomic tool. I like tools that do one thing and do it well.

If we said, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts", it may be true, but it would also gloss over the fact that each part is a refinement of centuries of use and design. Japanese tools are the art of subtlety. The manufacture of laminated steels, the use of a chipbreaker, the focus on low angle beds in planes, the use of a gennou for precision in bench chisel work, the way a hoop is fitted on a bench chisel, the canted handle angle of a slick (paring chisel), the reduced dai (sole) area on the sole of a kanna (plane). Zoom in on a Western equivalent and see if you find these aspects in the design and construction. Take note that they were this way on the Japanese tool some centuries ago.

None of this means that Japanese tools are better than Western tools. But, then, neither should this be inferred that Western tools are better than Japanese tools. There are some on both sides better than the other, and some of each that I prefer using.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Sophisticated ... ? There has been a few eyebrows raised about my use of this term. For some, there is agreement and others clearly not so.

There are other descriptors that spring to mind when I think about Japanese tools: elegant .. synergistic .. are just two more. I am especially drawn to art, furniture .. and tool .. designs that pare away the fat and leave you with just enough to be enough. That to me is the correct use of the term "minimalism" ... not having less tools, but having a simple yet complete and ergonomic tool. I like tools that do one thing and do it well.

If we said, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts", it may be true, but it would also gloss over the fact that each part is a refinement of centuries of use and design. Japanese tools are the art of subtlety. The manufacture of laminated steels, the use of a chipbreaker, the focus on low angle beds in planes, the use of a gennou for precision in bench chisel work, the way a hoop is fitted on a bench chisel, the canted handle angle of a slick (paring chisel), the reduced dai (sole) area on the sole of a kanna (plane). Zoom in on a Western equivalent and see if you find these aspects in the design and construction. Take note that they were this way on the Japanese tool some centuries ago.

None of this means that Japanese tools are better than Western tools. But, then, neither should this be inferred that Western tools are better than Japanese tools. There are some on both sides better than the other, and some of each that I prefer using.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sophisticated is an interesting word. There are lots of meanings related to society, personality, and human understanding, but how is the word used to describe physical "things?" One dictionary lists: "complex or intricate, as a system, process, piece of machinery, or the like: a sophisticated electronic control system."

Anyone that understands Japanese chisels knows that they are more intricate and complex than any other design being made elsewhere nowadays (wasn't always so). Arguably they are more intricate and complex than any chisel design ever made anywhere if we consider the hollow-ground ura and the lands it creates. Not only are they more complex and intricate, and therefore more sophisticated, they are arguably a better design than any chisel made anywhere nowadays.

Steel chemistry has been beat to a bloody hash many times, so I will not delve into it.

Perhaps we can agree about chisels, but what about planes? The Japanese plane's block is typically one piece of wood transfixed by a steel rod. It has few cuts, and is clearly NOT intricate or complex even when compared to wooden planes of other countries. Arguably, since it does not need the other parts wooden plane bodies from other traditions employ, and works fine without them, is the additional intricacy really necessary? I don't think so, but each man must judge for himself.

But what about the plane's blade? The modern Western plane blade is one-piece of uniform-thickness differentially-hardened steel. it is relatively thin. It has cutouts to accommodate a screw to hold the cap iron in place. Baily-design planes have a slot to make room for the depth adjuster. The Baily plane totals 3 complications as I count them.

The Japanese plane is not differentially hardened, but is laminated of HC steel and low-carbon steel (close to wrought iron). This lamination does not extend all the way to the upper end of the blade. I think the Japanese and Western plane blades are neck-and-neck so far in our analysis.

The Japanese blade has no holes or cutouts, but it is tapered to wedge into the body without the need of a frog and frog-adjusting mechanism, separate wedge, screws (2), cap-iron, or lever-cap (4-pieces). I see this as a very positive simplification of an obviously over-complicated design. Each man needs to decide for himself. The blade is thicker and the bevel is wider. This makes sharpening easier.The back of the blade is concave across its width to keep it centered/aligned in the block. The front, or flat, of the blade is hollow-ground. The actual cutting edge is only a thin land of HC steel, usually about 1/8~1/16" wide. The corners of the blade are ground at a 45 degree angle (or similar angle). So, according to my count, the Japanese plane blade has 8 complications, and might be seen as more "sophisticated." This is all the blacksmith's work.

I think that if we counted all the complications of the Baily plane, it would clearly be much more "sophisticated" than the Japanese plane even though its blade is significantly less sophisticated.

So ask yourself if you prefer a sophisticated plane with a complex mechanism comprised of many moving parts, few of which do any actual cutting, or a less-sophisticated plane with fewer parts and no mechanisms, but with has a much more sophisticated blade to do the actual cutting.

There is no right or wrong answer, and each man must judge for himself. But I would urge you to give the planes of the various traditions a good tryout before you make a declaration of judgement or you may end up denying yourself an interesting education.

Stan

[Mark Ackman]

I see the point that many subtle refinements add up to a lot of complexity hidden in plain sight.

I guess what came to mind for me from the use of sophisticated specifically was that we seem to be using it more in terms of how we would describe a refined, well traveled, well spoken human. It’s understandable, because when I use a hand forged oire nomi and see the performance and all the little imperfections that make it my chisel; i do want to talk about it like it’s my new best friend. But it’s still just a chisel, not a Stanley Covington or a Brian Holcombe.

Maybe my bias is the other direction because I’m a western engineer- so sophisticated in an object to me means engineering and I’m prone to overlook subtle refinement. My wife is more artistic and she says my kanna and Dutch planes are more sophisticated without hesitation.

Either way I have enormous respect for Brian and Stanley and Derek because I’ve seen the work you all do with either category of tools.

I’m no expert but my thought on what the OP was looking for:
I really developed an appreciation for two characteristics of the kanna that western iron body planes don’t really match. One is The lowered bed angle allows lower pulling force so you can run a standard 70mm wide smoothing kanna thru most hardwoods without too much effort. The extra width over a western smoother allows fewer passes, and the wooden body helps burnish and blend the passes together so I find I get a clean surface faster with less chance of error on my part as long as I have set it up just right. Point two is the lower bed angle handles most end grain smoothly and easily, which I appreciate leveling up exposed joints and I really appreciate when I have a piece Like a fitted shelf just a smidge too wide and need a few thousandths off the end grain. A western block plane works also, but many times the pull action can be more ergonomic and reduces my margin for error on finishing touches and assembly. I seem to struggle to keep a narrow short block plane square on a board edge or end that isn’t in a vise, but with a kanna I get consistent results.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with all the comments on "sophisticated". It's so flexible. It's used ironically, pejoratively,and positively. New designs are sophisticated ....but eventually replaced by new stuff "less complicated".

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mark

I wanted to say "welcome" to the forum.

Regards from Perth

Derek