Charging for work?

[Tom Conger]

Seems as though the wife is very proud of her husbands new found hobby of woodworking. So much in fact, that her bragging about me has caused her friends to ask me to build things for them. Benches, picture frames, and shelves so far. I have a full time job, and just do wood for a hobby.

As I work in technology at a bank, having an exit strategy in place, such as doing wood work for a living, is not a bad idea. I am not adverse to constructing these projects for her friends, but I have no idea how to charge for it. For the bench, I charged just materiels as she is making curtains for us. The friend who wants the set of bookshelves wants to pay.

I know every project is different, but how do you go about setting a baseline for billing your work? I am by no means a professional, nor do I tell anyone I am. I figure there must be a general figure out there per hour or per size of project that I can use to get started.

Any comments would be appreciated.

[John Cavanaugh]

Tom,

I read something once about someone recommending that for folks just getting started to have the person purchase for 1.5-2x the necessary wood/materials. That way you build up a supply of wood etc for your own projects that doesnt cost you anything.

I thought it was a good idea, but then again Im not employing the idea, so caveat emptor.

--
John Cavanaugh

[Lee Schierer]

There are numerous threads on this before and lots of methods for figuring out what to charge.

I charge for some items I make. Generally, but not always, I figure out every bit of needed material and the cost for that. Then multiply the total material cost by 3 or 4 to arrive at the cost for the project. If it is really a complex project with lots of room for error, then charge more since the customer isn't likely to buy the scrap parts you created in the process. Don't forget, screws, glue, sandpaper, hardware and finish in your costs. If the project is simple to make, then charge less. Don't forget to shop around to see what others in your area charge for the same thing.

Be prepared when you tell your "Friend" the cost. You will likely hear, "Wow, that much I can get a __________ at ___________ for much less than that!" And of course they can, but it won't be custom made, will contain lots of particle board and fake veneers and the quality of work won't be the same. You may also lose some so called friends when you price work for them.

Almost forgot......When you agree on the price, also agree on the delivery time frame, some people will drive you nuts if your project takes more than a day or so to complete, even when they say they are in no hurry for it.

Always do your own measurements DAMHIKT for any project that has to fit in a particular space, never ever rely on the customer's measurements.

[Donnie Raines]

If it is close friends/family i dont charge them a thing...except materials. For others I like to double my materials plus add in a dollar amount that feels about right. I have done it several diffrent ways through the years....I just enjoy getting in the shop so I am not all that worried about the money.

[Tom Conger]

Thanks Lee and John. That sounds like solid advice.

I have made the point to them that since I don't do this for a living, my free time is worth more than my paid time, thus if you want me to work during my free time, it will cost. So hopefully with that warning, I won't lose any friends. Also, time spent on these projects takes away from the long list of Honey-Do projects.

I like the 1.5 to 2x materiel formula. Also was going to check the local area for similar products.

By the way, the bench I made from a picture they gave me out of Crate and Barrel retails for $350....I built it for about $75.

[John Hart]

The only thing I can add to this Tom is this thought, as you give up your day job:
A coffee table takes a few weeks to make and sells for $500...so that means that you need to make 10 coffee tables per month.....and you need 10 coffee table customers per month.

Just my thoughts as I sit here in my office wishing I was in my woodshop:(

[Keith Christopher]

All good advice and yes there are a couple (or more) threads about pricing work. In addition to what everyone else has stated, I would also include a couple of more things. You need to determine the cost for wear and tear on your machines. Re-sharpening costs, replacement bit and blade costs. After you figure all that out, then comes the big part where you have to determine the cost per/hour for you labor. As stated, this will put you WAY over what someone thinks they can pay. Most people are under the impression that DIY saves money.Problem with friends and family, they think you're DIY for them.Be upfront and set expectations on cost and delivery time. Add 20% to the BF you order in lumber, put another 6% for tool wear/tear/repair and then your hourly rate. Just a suggestion but non-the less.

Keith

P.S. Oh and be sure that there is a "I keep the scrap" clause in the contract. Don't ask me why I suggest this, I don't wanna talk about it. :mad:

[Tom Sontag]

I never charge more than materials because "I do not take commissions, I only do favors" (this is my standard response, after determining that I am willing to do the favor, otherwise they only get the first half). It is almost ridiculous to think that charging for one's time will actually make a financial difference to most of us (admittedly, not all), so why even bother with the complication? I did have one recipient volunteer extra $ which made the whole transaction happy on both ends.

There is certainly nothing wrong with adding something to buy a new tool or some extra wood. But for me, since I do not want to put a price on my free time, the difference in mindset while working ("can I charge for this mistake time?" v. " I am doing this for a friend") is the definition of the difference between weekday-type work and free time. In other words, putting a price on free time can change its' benefits significantly. Keep it free.

My two cents.

[Ian Barley]

I have made this contribution (or one like it) the similar threads in the past but - here goes again.

Materials cost + sharpening + energy cost + blah + insurance + blah +... gives you your costs. That is the minimum you can charge before you are buying the piece for the recipient. Then you have to think about how much you need to eat.

Now most folks will say "but I don't need to use this money to eat - its just a bit of pin money". Which is fair and good but it doesn't help the guy who does have to eat what he earns from working wood, for it is he who you are competing with.

You talk about possibly working wood as an exit strategy which is great - I can tell you a fair amount about that because that is exactly what I did. But I realised that if I was ever gonna be able to survive at it I needed to charge a commercial rate from the start. I did. When I had a salary coming in from a tedious job I made some chairs on the side but I charged for them as though I was making my living off them. Glad that I did because I got used to holding my head up and explaining to people the price of craftsmanship, not mumbling apologies and blaming the Chinese.

Now, if you decide that you need eleventyseven dollars an hour to live on that doesn't mean you should be charging the number of hours you spend making by eleventyseven. Because the chances are that you are not working at the same speed as a pro would. But you should charge all your costs and then take the number of hours that a pro might take and multiply that by eleventyseven. That way you are not snatching the bread from another craftsmans mouth, you are not deluding yourself about whether you could make a living at this and you are setting your customer up to expect to be proud of the quality of the item they commision. You will also end up enjoying the process of sharing your skill with others rather than resenting being taken for a sucker and hating the piece before you have finished making it.

As others have said - get a reputation not as the guy who tries to compete with Walmart on price but as the guy who competes with (insert your own choice of quality supplier here) on quality.

[Dev Emch]

Tom...
I am warning you right now! Keep the Day Job!

I was an electrical computer engineer until my company got into trouble. Yadi Yadi Yah. You know the story. Samo Samo in Corporate America.

But I have roots and an older mother that cannot be moved. So instead of me finding another job elsewhere, my hobby went full time. Sounds like a good idea right?

First, let me say this. A hobby is for fun and entertainment and enjoyment. The second you accept money for it, you have prostituted yourself to your hobby. Now its an issue of doing the work, doing the job, maintaintaining paperwork, dealing with state agencies, dealing with workman's comp, etc. etc. etc. Your also after new work all the time. This is a level of stress you have not had before.

Second, in our new world economy, there is not a great deal of respect for old world craftsmanship. Well there is, but the willingness to pay for it is less and less. So highy skilled woodworkers begin working for miniumum wage just to keep the doors open. Cash flow goes up and it goes down on a month to month basis. Often you have to do things that you think are horrid and ugly. But the gal who wants the purple and pink living room drapes with a lawyer hubbi is paying the bills so you do it. Then you get the mid month crisis. Your into a low cash flow month and you begin to worry so you now bid on a couple of simple jobs at a much lower than normal compensation rate just to pad out the cash flow a bit. This is never good as the customer shows up again next month with a major whopper of a job and now you have to explain why you cannot do this at miniumum wage. So a grounded set of rules and polocies is mandatory governing these types of issues.

Since leaving the high tech world, I dont get much sleep anymore. And when I am posting to SMC, its because I am working CAD on the other windows at about the same time or have a phone growing out of my ear.

There are also the good times. Its not always stress and worry and long hours. And hopefully the good times balance he bad times and it all works out in the middle.

I am also lucky in that we get to work on the abodes of well healed corporate america and hollywood. That is why I cannot post finished photos. Rarely if ever does a job come my way that is normal. Normal is what you buy at home depot, lowes or the kitchen design center. The last job I just finished had a full set of Elk Horn door latches, knobs and fittings. The typical knob was made from Elk horn segments and turned german silver fittings. Often I have to use wood whose name I could not spell if my life depended on it. Another reason I use baltic birch exclusively. Its easier to resaw the exotic and laminate it to baltic birch using my VacuClamp bag system than try to find this stuff in veneer sheet goods.

After doing this for three years, I have to admit its been fun. But it has also been a roller coaster ride and **YOU** deserve every penny you get for the work done. Its much easier and more lucrative to work as an engineer than as a private business person and professional woodworker. It takes a special breed to do this. So I encourage you to pursue some projects but remember, this is a tough row to hoe.

[markus shaffer]

Tom,

You should take the time to figure out what you think your time is really worth. For me, I have some pretty serious overhead costs being that I have a shop in Manhattan. Thus, I have come to a figure of $65 per hour. But I also do this for a living so that makes somewhat of a difference. That figure does slide a little bit depending on the customer and the project. People who are obviously going to be more trouble pay more. Projects that are going to be more trouble cost more even if the time isn't really such an issue. I also take into account the background of the people who come to me. If they seem to be people who understand the concept of "custom made" and they may not be as well off as Donald Trump, I slide the cost down some. Anyone who says something like, "I can buy that for $$$ less at some other store." gets shown out promptly. If the word Ikea gets mentioned in my shop I politely tell them there is a free shuttle bus that will take them there.

It's been my experience that many people in this business sell themselves short and work way too hard in the process. I will admit that I used to try to explain to people why my dining room table would cost $5000 when they could buy a table at Ikea for $300. As soon as I stopped doing that and raised my prices, the caliber of my clients changed. I stopped getting people who wanted to argue with me about such things. Mind you all my work is by word of mouth. I don't have a storefront, no advertising, no gallery representation, nothing of the sort. By the time people come to me, they know they want to spend money and they are going to get what they want and it will be something that will last.

That being said, if you're working out of a home shop and you're not paying rent and utilities beyond what you'd be doing for yourself, then your rate obviously may not need to be the same as mine. But that doesn't mean you should be trying to undercut local commercial shops or others doing the same kind of work. As you stated, this will be something you're doing in your free time and only you can really determine what that is worth. Depending on your skill level and the projects that you are producing though, I'd say start at something like $35-$40 an hour.

As for materials; you probably already know that you should overestimate your list anyway to allow for any problems that may arise. Something that I've done on occasion when time was of the essence was to factor in the cost of a new tool. I had a rush cabinet job once that paid for several pairs of Bessy K-Body clamps to help get the doors done on time. Also had a job that involved a significant amount of hardwood edging done on plywood. I let the customer know that there would be a rush charge added if they wanted done in the time they specified. They were fine with the added $1000 and I bought a Hoffman lipping planer. Made quick work of the hardwood edging and I got the job done quicker than I had thought possible. They were happy and I ended up with a tool that I probably never would have bought otherwise.

The last thing I will say is be weary of working for friends and relatives. Be very specific about costs especially. It is surprising how quickly a relationship can turn sour over money. Even seemingly insignificant amounts. I have made it a point not to work for friends except in rare cases. That's usually when I work for free. Then they have nothing to complain about. While I've not lost any significant friendships, I did one job for an acquaintance who owns a restaurant in which a couple hundred dollar difference in the price almost resulted in a fistfight.

Good luck.

-Markus

[Chris Barton]

Hi Tom,

You have gotten a boatload of great advice from the many posts to your original question. I will only briefly share a couple of insights. As said by others, friends, relatives, and the wife's contacts are all looking for a cheap deal and by cheap I mean Walt Mart cheap. I have done some comission work and like Markus, I will not even talk to someomne that says the "I can get it from X for only Y $". On the other hand, I have made custom pieces at cost as "gifts" for family and friends and just like Markus, have even had a bad situation or two there when the actual dollar amount is provided. Now, even when I do these "gift" builds I tell them they have to pay in advance, I am not a loan company. Time can also be an arguing point, set expectations in advance and always estimate at least 2X as much time for the project than you realistictly believe it will take. Trust me, something will cause a slow down in delivery and if you don't have a safety valve in the system your "friends" can suddently become your former friends. Good luck!

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Before this gets beat to death, my$.02.

I do two types of projects. Those for my own pleasure and those others have asked to have done. More of the "For MY Pleasure" are given away, but some go into the For Sale inventory. These get priced at three times mtl cost, plus time @ $15.00/hr, so a vase that takes two hours to do and used an 8"x12" blank would sell for about $70 to $80 Dollars. That may sound expensive, but I've found that if you do good work, but under price it, you will have it at the end of the day. The customers will wonder what's wrong with it.

Commissions are strictly T & M, negotiated at the beginning of the project with a down payment that more than covers the materials.

As a caviot, I don't make my living woodworking. It is an Avocation, so I can afford to be pricy. If the piece is worth it, someone will buy it. If not they won't.

Bruce

[Ellen Benkin]

From the number of replies, this is obviously a hot topic.

I am retired. I have told many friends that I don't do woodworking to make a living, I do it for fun. I am willing to help friends with repairs and to make small projects. The deal is always that they pay for materials -- and that includes any "extra" wood, drill bits, finish, sandpaper or other stuff like that which is used in their project. In addition, they owe me a dinner at a very expensive restaurant. If I have leftover materials, I keep them but I don't buy extra to provide myself with private materials, and I always show them the receipts. I don't charge for my time, and they are expected to wait until I get the project done without complaining. I don't want to start charging for my time because I don't want any pressure about "due" dates. So far, everyone has been happy. Sometimes I can make something cheaper than Ikea-like places, and sometimes I can't, but my products are always made to fit a specific need in a specific place, so they are unlikely to be duplicated anywhere else.

I would think very carefully about trying to make my hobby a business because then it probably would not be any fun.

[Brian Hale]

One line i've used in the past ......... Go to a high end furniture store and find something that's close to what you want. Tripple the price and you'll be close.

Brian :)

[Dev Emch]

Markus brought up a good point. He has zeroed in at about $65 dollars per hour. Funny, that is what I charge for woodwork and I get $100 dollars per hour for machine work.

Keep in mind that its not just you getting this. Its your shop. So when you have a stable full of heavy duty, super precise machines, that also means something. Its not just the driver but the driver and his machines. And the more accurate you go and the more towards precise metal you go, the more you get. Its easy to hold 1/32 in on wood. Its much harder and more skillfull to hold +/- 0.001 on metal.

And of course, there is the Pottery Barn Gang! I got a call from a tech recruiter about 2 years ago. His wife had gone to this store called Pottery Barn and fallen in love with a bed of some sort. I, not ever having gone to Pottery Barn had and still have no idea of what they are talking about. I have no time to frequent Pottery Barn. So the gist of the conversation was simple. He told me about the bed and how his wife just has to have it. Then he wanted to know how much less I could make it for. EXCUSS ME!

So I told him a simple answer. Quality Costs. Take the Pottery Barn price and multiply it by FOUR. He responded with a comment about how he thought I could make it for less as I was a single person and my shop was located in an old refurbished garage, etc. etc. These are the jobs that its hard to even dignify a polite response but you have to. You dont want to lower yourself to an even lower level. But Really! Inside, this makes your blood boil. And of course, when these guys leave your shop, they are driving a brand new Lexus SUV or BMW.

Get used to it. These perspective customers are comming and you need to identify them ASAP. Politely get rid of them now. They are a pain that can only mean bad tempers and bad press for you and your business. You dont need this business and you dont need these customers.

[Steve Rowe]

Tom - There has been a lot of good advice here. I used to do stuff for hire but like many, got tired of hearing "that is too much" or "I can buy this at so and so for $XXX." These folks usually have no idea what it takes in time, skill, tooling and machinery to build and finish a nice piece of furniture. They expect you to do it for free or very little because you don't make your living at it - after all, you have a day job just like they do and you do it because you like to. If you are intent on doing this for profit, do so like it was a business and use shop/labor rates consistent with your area. Do not overlook business licenses, tax ID numbers, resale certificates, taxes, insurance, etc. Now, I just politely tell folks that I would be glad to help them build it with an estimate of how many hours it would take to do. They can even use my shop when I am there. I am batting 1000 on this - no takers yet and they are never offended. I suppose they didn't really want it that badly.

[Frank Pellow]

From the number of replies, this is obviously a hot topic.

I am retired. I have told many friends that I don't do woodworking to make a living, I do it for fun. I am willing to help friends with repairs and to make small projects. The deal is always that they pay for materials -- and that includes any "extra" wood, drill bits, finish, sandpaper or other stuff like that which is used in their project. In addition, they owe me a dinner at a very expensive restaurant. If I have leftover materials, I keep them but I don't buy extra to provide myself with private materials, and I always show them the receipts. I don't charge for my time, and they are expected to wait until I get the project done without complaining. I don't want to start charging for my time because I don't want any pressure about "due" dates. So far, everyone has been happy. Sometimes I can make something cheaper than Ikea-like places, and sometimes I can't, but my products are always made to fit a specific need in a specific place, so they are unlikely to be duplicated anywhere else.

I would think very carefully about trying to make my hobby a business because then it probably would not be any fun.
Hey Ellen, I handle projects for others exactly the way that you have described. Now, if only my work was a good as yours!

[Richard Wolf]

I really like Ellen's idea also. Tom's not looking to be in business right now and is only looking for some guide lines.
I think you should come up with some aribitriary price which will cover your materials and alittle extra. See how long it takes you to do the project, keep track of your costs and time, and try to plug in your skill level. It's fine for Markus to charge $65.00 an hour. I'm pretty sure Markus can work alot faster than you, so how could you be entitled to $65 per hour?
The first couple of projects are for you to learn what to charge for you work and if you could make a living at this.

Richard

[Randy Meijer]

.....Now most folks will say "but I don't need to use this money to eat - its just a bit of pin money". Which is fair and good but it doesn't help the guy who does have to eat what he earns from working wood, for it is he who you are competing with...

I've seen this idea proposed many times before and still don't understand it. I don't see how you have any obligation to price your goods so your "competitor" can eat?? By the very nature of the word, the implication is that you build a product for less than your competition. Do you suppose the people at Ford worry about taking food out of the mouths of Lexus workers?? I think not!!

Charge what you consider a fair price and don't worry about what others are doing.

[Joe Mioux]

In my business, my cost/pricing template is 30 pct COGS, 30 pct OE, 30 pct labor, and 10 pct profit. So if you purchase $500 worth of wood, consider $500 for operating expenses, $500 for your labor and if you want some profit add $50.

I bet, that Markus Shaffers' $65.00 per hour fee comes pretty close to 30 pct labor.

Re-read..... RE-READ both Dev's and Markus' first posts because they are both dead on right.

One thing that is not mentioned is your insurance liability for both you and your product. If you take a fee for a project, you become a professional and thus your product is expected to perform in a certain way. Also, what happens if you build something structural and it fails and permanently injures your customer. Are you going to have the insurance coverage to compensate the injured party?

Speaking as a small business owner who has a lot of "competion" from "Betty Basements floral designers", I would not hurt the cabinet shop, pro-woodworker business by doing some scab job. The pros have a lot more overhead than you and they have to support a family and themselves.

If you want to do something positive with your new hobby, I suggest you create and build items that can be used for local fundraisers.

Joe

[Dave Falkenstein]

Tom,

I read something once about someone recommending that for folks just getting started to have the person purchase for 1.5-2x the necessary wood/materials. That way you build up a supply of wood etc for your own projects that doesnt cost you anything.

I thought it was a good idea, but then again Im not employing the idea, so caveat emptor.

--
John Cavanaugh

I'd like to add that in my experience using a multiplier on the material cost is a decent way to price work if you are not doing it as a way to make a living. In addition, again in my experience, the multiplier needs to be more like 3 to 5 times the material cost in order for the resulting hourly rate to be decent. My definition of decent may be different than yours.

[jack duren]

"I'd like to add that in my experience using a multiplier on the material cost is a decent way to price work if you are not doing it as a way to make a living. In addition, again in my experience, the multiplier needs to be more like 3 to 5 times the material cost in order for the resulting hourly rate to be decent. My definition of decent may be different than yours."

material bidding is good for the short run but if your going at it for a living your better off knowing how to calculate hours per project and understand the limits of your machinery.

all can seem good for awhile but at the end of the year your boat is either sinking or floating.

[Steve Wargo]

Wow, this is an excellent thread going here. I know that we've somewhat strayed off the original question here but there is a bunch of good information. When I orignally started to make furniture for sale, I bid jobs and usually came out making much less than I'd hoped to. I played around with the old COG x 3 or 4 and was never satisfied. Now that I'm well past the trial and error period in bidding I've got everything in spreadsheets and down to a pretty good science. What I use is (Cost of Materials + 15%) + ((Estimated hours x hourly rate) + 10%). This has really been a good solution for me. I've had a couple jobs that went a little more labor intensive than estimated and didn't get hurt too bad, but I've had a few that went much faster and really reaped the benefits. However... one issue I'd like to ask to some Pro's out there is how do you work bargain materials into your quotes. I have a real problem with purchasing veneer. I have around 6 or 7,000 square feet of it and often purchase it in huge flitches and really cheap, ie. a 135 sq.ft. flitch of mottled makore $13.50. Do you mark those material costs up?I normally do a little, but rarely up to market value. Should I be marking them up much more? Thanks for any answers. Private messages are fine as I hate to hi-jack the thread. BTW... Markus really hit a lot of points on the head.

[Martin Shupe]

Steve,

I would price your veneer at your "estimated replacement cost", and assume you would not get a "deal" the second time around.

Personally, I tell people I am way too slow to accept any work other than my wife's requests.

[Ian Barley]

Do you suppose the people at Ford worry about taking food out of the mouths of Lexus workers?? I think not!![/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Randy - I agree - but I suspect that the people at Ford do try and set their price so that they can put food in the mouths of Ford workers.

[Alan Turner]

Steve,
Regardless of my actual cost (unless I overpaid, which I don't often do), I figure material costs at replacement cost. I buy a lot of wood, spend gas or rent a truck to pick it up, and pay rent to store it, and then move it around from time to time, hire labor to do it sometimes, and care for it, etc. Those features do add to my actual cost. Were I to take a furniturre order, pick up the phone, and order wood, and have it delivered, then I would charge actual cost. Why I hoard wood? -- well, don't we all do that? But, I still claim that it is not an addiction. It is not; it is not; it is not . . . . .

[John Gregory]

Woodworking is a hobby for my wife and I. All of the work we have done to date is for family and friends at work. Family we charge for the materials and add a little for overhead (wear and tear, etc) and if they want a finished applied we charge a little more for that because they could finish if it they wanted too. For friends we charge a little bit more since they are not family. We are NOT competing with local shops, none of our family members have ever contracted for custom woodworking.

I tell anyone that asks me to qoute a price for a project that if they find something at XYZ furniture that meets their needs, then buy it. I cannot compete with that price. If they need something and they cannot find the right size, style etc, then we can qoute a price.

The money we spent building and equiping our shop was for hobby purposes. Some spend more than that on ski boats, travel trailers, and such.

My wife and I feel lucky that friends and family buy most of the material for our hobby. We would hate to say "Damn I wish we had something to build in the shop" Family has kept us busy for 3 years now.:D

And our profits are in the form of appreciation and accolades from family.

[John Stevens]

I don't see how you have any obligation to price your goods so your "competitor" can eat

Randy, I wholeheartedly agree with you if we're talking about truly competing businessmen.

But the original post is by a guy who isn't shouldering the expenses he would be if he were a professional. (Think in terms of the costs of complying with regulations governing zoning, labor and waste-disposal.) Just my opinion, but I think it's unfair for a DIY guy to undercut pros who have to follow regulations that are intended to improve the health, safety and welfare of both the business owner, employees, and the community. In this situation, I agree with Ian Barley.

[Tom Conger]

Wow. Obviously a lot of wisdom out there on this topic.

Markus/Dev: I think you answered my question and a whole lot of others about the realities of woodworking as a business.

Richard Wolf: That was my point exactly. By the way, the LOML loves your stairway pics.

I like to think the wife married me for my looks and wit, but have a feeling a lot of it had to do with my ability of holding a job (barring layoffs), and providing a comfortable standard of living. To quit my day job and do this full time would be folly, thus not a hard decision. Should I become unemployed, this may be something I could do to fill the gap, but with a total of ten months experience, I don't see supporting the homestead. Professional woodworkers in Atlanta need not fear the competition.

The project this lady has asked me to do is not a big deal, and not one where she would hire a professional anyways. I now have a pretty good idea on how to charge her and how to handle the circumstances on performing this service.

Thanks.

[Ian Barley]

... In this situation, I agree with Ian Barley.

John - Thanks - you wanna watch out - that statement qualifies you to membership of a very small club. And thanks for addidng the additional statements that were exactly what I was thinking when I made the original post.