Tails of Pins to Come

[Jim Koepke]

Currently one of my projects involves making some drawers. It seemed like a good chance to actually have a topic on something other than sharpening. Hopefully anyone with tips, tricks or other insights will add to this.

Most of the time for me, cutting tails first is easier since for projects like this it is easy to saw two boards at once. Also the drawer fronts will be half blind dovetails and if there is a way of doing pins first on this it eludes me. Most of the time for full through dovetails cutting pins first or tails first makes little difference.

These drawer sides already have the front tails cut. To me that was an error for the simple reason that dovetails seem to improve with practice through a project. Maybe it should have occurred to me to start with the joints that are least likely to be seen first. Hopefully others may learn from my errors.

The first step is to set a gauge to the height of the tails. for through dovetails the mating stock is used to set the gauge. Some add a hair to make the pins and tails ‘proud’ of their respective mates. In the case at hand, the drawer front will use half blind dovetails. The gauge was set to roughly 5/8 of the thickness of the front piece. This can be less or more depending on the preference of the one making them.

The slot for the bottom was cut before cutting the material to length. For the marking and cutting step, a piece cut to fit the slot to align the two sides seems to make things go a little easier.

369382

This can also help to verify everything is square and the same length. Without squareness and matching sizes a finished piece will not be square and may even be a bit difficult to fit in the space made for the drawer.

There are many ways to mark or layout dovetails. For this particular piece the end pins were drawn out first. Three tails seemed like a good place to start. The pin board across the back is only wide enough to reach from the top of the slot for the bottom to the top of the drawer. For three tails there are five pins. The end pins are already marked. So the dividers were used to make five equal spaces on the base line. This was set to be slightly larger than my 1/2” paring chisel. This way the space between the tails at the base is 1/2”+ and the smallest space between the pins is the same. Other strategies are easy to layout. Most often seen is marking along the top instead of the base. Another odd method of mine uses story sticks with the dovetail spacing already marked and it is easily transferred to a workpiece. This is a friction divider. Once the first division is set, it is a good idea to check the dividers against it just incase setting them down or bumping them may have changed their setting.

369381

This dovetail tool was bought at a lumber yard where it and its steeper angle brother were ordered in error. The one in use is a 1:6 slope. They were not all that expensive because they wanted to get them out of their display. They are made by Joseph Marples. Turns out there are a lot of Marples in the history of tool making.

Knife lines can be difficult to see even with good lighting. Often my pencil point is touched up and run over the knife lines. Some like to place tape on the workpiece before knifing the lines. Then the tape is peeled away from either the waste or the keeper wood to help guide the sawing. What ever system one uses doesn’t matter as long as the lines can be seen. Some actually do not bother to mark the first half of the joint and saw by eye. My hope is to some day be that good.

One very important key to tight fitting dovetails is being able to saw to a line.

369383

Practice, practice, practice!

The waste area is marked. Then it is sawn free with a fret saw. Many of my dovetails have been chopped out, but since acquiring a good fret saw my chisels mostly only pare anymore on the tail board.

Here waste is being pared away with a skew chisel:

369384

This and its companion were made from some spare 1/4” socket chisels. This is why a chisel needs to be sharp enough to cleanly and accurately pare end grain.

Before setting up to mark the pin board all the tails are checked for square.

369385

Once the tail board is checked and pared as needed it should be left as is. Any further paring to fit should be reserved as much as is possible for the pin board.

If something has been left out, please step up and add it in.

Hopefully this may be of help to someone.

Pin Board to Follow When time allows.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I usually do tails first. I don't get too overly stressed about pins first though. I've done a fair amount of work with metal guides over the years. I find that it is easier for me to do pins first in that case. I find it difficult to mark the pins from the tails against the rabbet to cover the guides. Nice write up Jim.
Jim

[ken hatch]

Jim,

The last set I cut (last night) were so bad....How bad were they....the pin board split just looking at the tail board. :o

Only a slight exaggeration. Some days the magic works, somedays it doesn't. It helps if you remember the compressibility of the wood used.

ken

[James Pallas]

Jim,

The last set I cut (last night) were so bad....How bad were they....the pin board split just looking at the tail board. :o

Only a slight exaggeration. Some days the magic works, somedays it doesn't. It helps if you remember the compressibility of the wood used.

ken
i don't have to worry much about compressibility very often. Now getting the wood to swell up a bit is more my style.:)
Jim

[ken hatch]

i don't have to worry much about compressibility very often. Now getting the wood to swell up a bit is more my style.:)
Jim

Jim,

Been there as well....Sometimes on the same board:o

ken

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks for the write up Jim. Always good to get a refresher. Haven’t done many yet, but have a project with drawers in the works. And yes, I always do the back dovetails before the front, just for practice. But I will admit, it certainly doesn’t guarantee the fronts will be perfect :D

One thing I’ve wondered about; the dado for the drawer bottom. If you don’t do a stopped dado, and run the dado through a tail, does the dado always show through the front/back?

[ken hatch]

Thanks for the write up Jim. Always good to get a refresher. Haven’t done many yet, but have a project with drawers in the works. And yes, I always do the back dovetails before the front, just for practice. But I will admit, it certainly doesn’t guarantee the fronts will be perfect :D

One thing I’ve wondered about; the dado for the drawer bottom. If you don’t do a stopped dado, and run the dado through a tail, does the dado always show through the front/back?

Phil,

I'll jump in because I'm here and awake, I'm sure Jim will have more to add. Short answer....Depends on the type of dovetails, hidden as is used on many drawer fronts the answer is no. Through as used on most backs, yes. But the groove serves a good porpoise on the back it gives a groove to pull in and out the drawer bottom and a place for the drawer bottom to set.and be secured by a single screw.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Phil,

Ken gave a good answer to your question. On my project the joint at the front of the drawer will be half blind dovetails so the drawer front will not show the slot to hold the bottom.

Like so many things in woodworking there are other ways.

With through dovetails they can be plotted so the slot is in the area of a pin.

It is possible cut the pins as if the slot for the bottom is just another, yet short, pin to fill the void.

Another way is to glue in a plug. The plug will show if the wood isn't carefully matched.

One way used by others is to attach a false front to the drawer. This is most often done with lipped drawers. Those being drawers with the front bigger all around than the cavity it fits in.

Maybe some more pictures today. There should be examples of a couple of the above methods in my shop.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Another way to "cover the slot"...
369520
Someone didn't like "exposed" through dovetails....so a strip of contrasting wood was let in to cover them....about 1/8" deep. ( also covers the slot...

Unles there are half blind dovetails going on, I almost always do pins first. Just easier for me to mark out tails, by standing the pin board up where it goes..
369521
Using a sharp pencil, I can trace around each pin. Then saw on the waste side of those lines...trying to leave the lines..
369523
The more of the lines I leave, the tight the fit...
Too tight? I can pare away tight.
369524
On half blind dovetails, I do tails first.....easier to mark things out....

[Jim Koepke]

Unles there are half blind dovetails going on, I almost always do pins first. Just easier for me to mark out tails, by standing the pin board up where it goes..

Whatever works is the right way to do it.

One evening when nothing else was going on my attention turned to a couple piece of scrap to turn into small pieces of firewood by practicing dovetails. It kind of caused me a bit to think about since my best fitting joint was done pins first. It was chalked up to being the last pair of the evening. Since then my dovetails have improved even though most of the time mine are done tails first.

jtk

[Mike Brady]

Jim, do you also "gang" mark the pins, or do you mark each corner as a set? I can understanding cutting the tailboards paired up the way you show. I am not trusting enough of myself to saw the mating pin boards together as the risk of doubling a bad cut is great. Another thing I do as leave the boards over-length until the first two corners are well fitted. After that you can cut to length for the final two corners.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, do you also "gang" mark the pins, or do you mark each corner as a set? I can understanding cutting the tailboards paired up the way you show. I am not trusting enough of myself to saw the mating pin boards together as the risk of doubling a bad cut is great. Another thing I do as leave the boards over-length until the first two corners are well fitted. After that you can cut to length for the final two corners.

Pin boards are done one at a time with each corner marked from its mate.

My boards are usually cut pretty close to start and then checked and trued as necessary to match.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks Gents, for the input on the dado. Now after looking over dovetail drawer images again, I see 99.9% are either half blind or false front. Duh. Thanks for helping me see what I’ve been looking at and wondering about for some time :eek:

[Jim Koepke]

Here are some images of my past efforts at dovetails.

369566

This is my first drawer build. To the best of my recollection it was cut before SMC was on the web. My woodworking knowledge was very little at this time. My tools at the time didn’t include a usable plow plane so the slots were cut by hand.

Another one not showing the groove:

369565

This one employs a stopped slot. The stopped slot is likely in the front and chopped with a chisel. By my recollection this is before learning how to use a plow plane to make a stopped slot.

One interesting thing about this drawer is it was made when my shop was too cold to do a glue up and gluing it up in the house was out of the question since it was the day before Christmas Eve.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211707-Too-Cold-in-Shop-for-Gluing

It has been almost four years now and it still hasn’t been glued. It is still solid. This drawer holds some of my sharpening supplies.

This is my first drawer with concealed dovetails:

369564

Instead of half blind dovetails a false front is used. The drawer when closed looks like an apron to the top surface. Most people do not see the drawer until they are shown the drawer.

My first half blind dovetails were cut in burl:

369568

The slot can be seen on the bottom pin. This is one of five small drawers in my tool storage shelves. Burl is not a forgiving wood when cutting dovetails. It doesn’t really have a grain other than it seems to be end grain no matter which way it is approached.

Some of my first dovetails went wonky because of my forgetting to mark the corners so they can be put together with matching corners. This is an important part of getting things to fit together in any project with any joint.

For a drawer my pieces are placed on the bench end to end and then marked:

369567

Here Ω (the greek letter omega) is marked on the tails and where the pins will be. Arrows on my work point up unless otherwise noted. My marks are put in a place where they won’t be seen if possible. A light shaving by a plane will usually remove them if need be.

It will likely be a few days before my schedule will allow me to get back into the shop.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks for the photos, Jim. Here’s a recent cabin table with my first half blind dovetails. I believe I did stopped dados for the drawer bottom (router plane/chisels), when I now understand it was completely unnecessary :confused:

369569

By the way, this was the best corner of the four (yes, I did half blind on the back corners as well for practice...and while I don’t have pictures of them, let’s just say they aren’t very pretty).

[Patrick Chase]

Jim,

Been there as well....Sometimes on the same board:o


A true artiste needs compressibility and swelling within the same *dovetail*.

[brian zawatsky]

Just cut some half blinds for drawers in a mission-style desk I'm building this evening. For some reason the picture rotated 90 degrees when I uploaded it, sorry about that. I cut my tails first, with both drawer sides ganged together. I always try to make the bottom half-pin small enough so that the groove for the drawer bottom falls in the tail socket & is not seen. I was only able to spend a few moments in the shop tonight; I'll post a pic of the drawers when I finish them tomorrow.
369667

[Jim Koepke]

Yesterday allowed me a bit of time to get into the shop to work on the last of three drawers for a cabinet that has been in progress for quite a while.

There are various ways to ensure squareness when cutting various joints. Here is one way that works for me:

370062

This is a shop made inside square for aligning components. A try square or framing square are among other ways of keeping things square.

Here are the pins cut for the piece across the back of the drawer:

370063

This was marked from the tail board with a knife. Later a sharp pencil was used to darken the lines. One important part of making dovetails is to saw to the line, not though the line. The line is fully inside the area to be kept. One of my problems with using a pencil to trace the tails is there is usually a hair of offset at the point.

My orientation marks can be seen in this image. The L means it is the left side. My orientation for marking is from the front view of the completed piece. The arrow indicates up. If an arrow indicates anything other than up a note accompanies it.

Most of the waste was removed with a fret saw. For many years my waste removal was through chopping with chisels. Since getting a quality fret saw it has been easier to saw most of the waste then pare to the line.

A pair of skew chisels comes in handy to trim to the base line:

370064

Here a chamfer is being made at the edge of the socket. This helps to prevent blow out when paring out the waste. A skew chisel is also helpful to clean up the corners at the base of pins and tails. For me it is almost impossible to make half blind dovetails without a skewed or fishtail chisel.

What is that old saying, “trust but verify?” It may be awhile before my ability to have dovetails fit right of the saw is trusted:

370065

After getting both sides of the back piece to fit it is on to the front of the drawer:

370066

This is how the joint can be put together to hide the through plowed slot for the drawer bottom. If these were through dovetails the slot would have to be below the bottom tail.

This is also the first project for me to have an opportunity to use Ron Bontz’s Kerf Maker:

370067

It is a lot easier to use than a piece of saw blade. Here it is being driven by a tack hammer. It also works fine with my tapping mallet. My plane adjusting mallet on the table is too light to drive the Kerf Maker effectively.

Also shown in this image is my “poor man’s” Moxon vise. The workpiece is backed by another piece and then they are clamped together. Here there is also a clamp across the piece to prevent splitting while completing the kerf. This isn’t always part of my procedure. Pine isn’t as splintery as many other woods. In this case my half pins are rather small so it seemed a cheap insurance policy.

The pins for the half blind dovetails are ready to be chopped:

370068

The piece has a dog at one end and a clamp in the middle. Note the waste has also been cut in the middle. This helps when removing the waste after it has been chopped near the baseline.
This position didn’t work with a short chisel so the piece was moved to be more over the end vise.

Because of the image limit per post, this is a good place to break.

To Be Continued…

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

A 1/2” bevel edged firmer chisel is used to chop the waste:

370069

This chisel looks a lot like a Witherby but bears the Fulton mark. This has a steeper bevel than my paring chisels.

After chopping it is time to pop out the waste:

370070

The chopping is a little less than 1/8". The chisel is pressed into the end grain and the pieces will pop out with little effort. The cut in the middle of the waste helps with this.

When the bulk of the waste is removed it is time to pare the baseline:

370071

This is done with paring chisels. Most of my paring chisels have a bevel of about 20º.

This joint goes together in the test fit:

370072

Not too bad. May be able to glue it later today.

jtk