Ripping on a slider using fence as bump stop - toe-out

[mark mcfarlane]

Still dialing in my new slider.

My plan is to use the fence as a bump-stop for ripping narrow pieces to the right of the blade.

If I toe-out the fence at all, this seems like it will cause problems.

The ideal setup for this cutting scenario seems to be a perfectly parallel fence and blade, with the fence pulled forward of the blade for such rip cuts.

I can't think of any situation on a slider for having toe-out on the fence, since you would typically pull the fence to the infeed side of the blade, so binding would never be a problem.

What do you all think?

[Mark Bolton]

We keep our fence nearly parallel (it ma y be toed out a few thou. You can always clamp a scrap just ahead of the blade for your bump and that would eliminate any toe. We still rip material longer than the stroke with the fence so a litte toe is essential.

[Dan Friedrichs]

If you have a few thou of toe-out, what problem would that cause? Presumably, you aren't positioning the fence/stop with that much accuracy, so a little error in parallelism shouldn't hurt...

Mine is set for just a few thou of toe-out. Makes it a bit safer when using the full-length fence in the "traditional cabinet saw" mode. But I often pull it back and just use it as a bump stop, too.

[Andy Giddings]

Typically a few thou toe out is plenty - you might need it one day if you ever use the rip fence on its own (as per a US table saw working method) as per Mark's comment. It still works as a bump stop just fine - use the cross cut fence (if the blank is wide enough) to ensure your work is square to the blade and don't try to align it with the rip fence as its a stop, not for alignment. If the blank is narrow use a known square additional blank to give you something to register against the cross cut fence with.

Just try to use roughly the same position on the rip fence as the stop.

[mark mcfarlane]

We keep our fence nearly parallel (it ma y be toed out a few thou. You can always clamp a scrap just ahead of the blade for your bump and that would eliminate any toe. We still rip material longer than the stroke with the fence so a litte toe is essential.

Thanks Mark for the tip on clamping a scrap. I assume you mean ripping longer than the stroke of the slider, but I think you still wouldn't need the toe-out in that scenario if the fence is before the blade, but I guess you need the fence behind the blade to get better support for such a long cut.

As I continue to ponder this, another factor in the narrow rip scenario is the toe-out of the slider/wagon itself.

I have my wagon set so that the outfeed side is slightly further from the blade than the infeed side. So if I set the fence parallel to the blade, it is not parallel to the movement of the slider. If I toe-out the fence, the difference between the slider and fence is even greater since the slider is also toed-out (in the opposite direction relative to the blade).

I have the crosscut fence aligned 'well enough' with an error of 0.5mm over an 8 foot cut, which makes me not want to mess with the wagon alignment :).

Now I am trying to dial in the fence to get consistent rips of thin strips using the fence as a bump stop, but am having some problem in getting uniform width strips.

It may be a technique rather than a setup problem, but I am thinking maybe the toe-out of the slider is causing the problem.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I guess I'm not understanding the problem. It's normal to have the fence toe-out (from the blade) a few thou, and have the wagon toe-out (the other direction) a few thou. Yes, that introduces a small error. It seems like a very, very small error, though?

The only alternative would be to set both the fence and wagon perfectly parallel, which seems both impossible and dangerous.

[mark mcfarlane]

... use the cross cut fence (if the blank is wide enough) to ensure your work is square to the blade and don't try to align it with the rip fence as its a stop, not for alignment. If the blank is narrow use a known square additional blank to give you something to register against the cross cut fence with.


Bingo!

Thanks Andy. I used my 5-cut blank against the crosscut fence to register the piece to be cut, and was able to rip a 1" wide strip to within .004" over its 4 foot length.

The saw is officially ready for action after I add in a little toe-out to the fence for safety. Now for the J/P setup.

I also need to cut down the 48" square 3/4" birch blank I used for the 5-cut alignment to something more manageable for use as a future square reference, maybe a 24" square ? Whaddya think?

[Jim Becker]

Mark, there are a number of ways to make these narrow rips and a tiny amount of toe for the method you're asking about isn't going to affect much unless you're going to be doing really long pieces. You might also consider making the "Fritz and Franz" jig that there's a major thread dedicated to for doing narrow rips safely of reasonable length. My feeling on toe is it should be minimal on a slider. Having a 'thou or two is fine because there are those times when we rip "traditionally", although even then if you only extend the fence to the back of the blade, it's almost immaterial. My personal preference is pretty much close to parallel with my slider. (I actually need an adjustment for that as I think I somehow knocked it out a hair more than it needs to be)

[mark mcfarlane]

I guess I'm not understanding the problem. It's normal to have the fence toe-out (from the blade) a few thou, and have the wagon toe-out (the other direction) a few thou. Yes, that introduces a small error. It seems like a very, very small error, though?

The only alternative would be to set both the fence and wagon perfectly parallel, which seems both impossible and dangerous.

Imagine the toe-out on the wagon is 12" over the length of the cut (for an extreme illustration).

It seems to me that if you clamp a board to the wagon the right side cutoff is going to be 12" narrower at the end of the cut when compared to the start of the cut, because the wagon is moving away from the blade through the entire cut.

If the wagon toe-out is .1" over the length of the cut, the error would be .1"

That's what my brain is telling me.

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, there are a number of ways to make these narrow rips and a tiny amount of toe for the method you're asking about isn't going to affect much unless you're going to be doing really long pieces. You might also consider making the "Fritz and Franz" jig that there's a major thread dedicated to for doing narrow rips safely of reasonable length. My feeling on toe is it should be minimal on a slider. Having a 'thou or two is fine because there are those times when we rip "traditionally", although even then if you only extend the fence to the back of the blade, it's almost immaterial. My personal preference is pretty much close to parallel with my slider. (I actually need an adjustment for that as I think I somehow knocked it out a hair more than it needs to be)

Jim, Building a Fritz and Franz jig is in the plans.

When people talk about toe-out measurements, are they usually talking about a measurement over the circumference of the blade? That is what I suspect. So .002 over 12" means .016 over the length of an 8' slider.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, over the width of the blade...

[David Kumm]

My toe out is measured over a longer range. I set my crosscut fence to as square as I can get it. When happy, I cut a fresh edge on mdf at least 2' and maybe 3'. Pull the slider back and set my rip fence against the fresh edge and adjust it to match. Maybe a couple thou over the 2-3' range but maybe less. I then run the mdf against the rip fence just beyound the blade but not all the way through. Stop the saw and look that the blade is centered in the kerf at both the leading and trailing ends. Typically my 16-18" blades produce a kerf that is .004-.006 wider than the blade tooth so I have some room. Dave

[mark mcfarlane]

My toe out is measured over a longer range. I set my crosscut fence to as square as I can get it. When happy, I cut a fresh edge on mdf at least 2' and maybe 3'. Pull the slider back and set my rip fence against the fresh edge and adjust it to match. Maybe a couple thou over the 2-3' range but maybe less.

Looks like a great way to adjust the toe-out on the fence, thanks David.


I then run the mdf against the rip fence just beyound the blade but not all the way through. Stop the saw and look that the blade is centered in the kerf at both the leading and trailing ends. Typically my 16-18" blades produce a kerf that is .004-.006 wider than the blade tooth so I have some room. Dave

So I guess that 'extra kerf width' beyond the width of the blade is the sum of your wagon toe-out and the fence toe-out, over the length of the blade, so if you toe-out on the fence is only .002 over 3 feet, than you must have a significant toe-out on the wagon.

Assuming I am following all this correctly.

[Warren Lake]

does the tow out you guys are talking affect your square cutting? or its a seperate setting, I would assume for cutting squaring a panel you want it dead nuts square with no tow at all?

[mark mcfarlane]

does the tow out you guys are talking affect your square cutting? or its a seperate setting, I would assume for cutting squaring a panel you want it dead nuts square with no tow at all?

Warren, It can have some effect on square cuts depending on how you use the slider (technique for a particular kind of cut). For example, Andy Gibbings tip above basically eliminates the effect of fence toe-out by using a square reference set against the crosscut fence.

The toe-out is essentially a measure of the angle between the blade and the slider wagon or the fence. Toe-out is added for safety purpose.

If the fence toes into the blade then it increases the chance of kickback when ripping to the right of the blade, particularly if a lively piece of wood expands as it is cut and stresses are released.

In a perfect world, dead-nuts as you propose would be fine. In the real world of blade wobble, wood movement, non-perfect fence repositioning,... a small amount of toe-out is considered by many to be preferable due to the added safety benefit.

[Andy Giddings]

does the tow out you guys are talking affect your square cutting? or its a seperate setting, I would assume for cutting squaring a panel you want it dead nuts square with no tow at all?
If properly adjusted and if using the same reference face then it doesn't affect the square cutting. Even if you use the rip fence as a reference the error should be small when set correctly. We're talking about a few thou over the length of the blade. Making it dead square (even if that's possible) is not helping as you want to avoid contact with the back of the blade as described by Dave's post

[David Kumm]

A kerf will always be wider than the tooth. Very few blades are perfectly flat and there is usually some runout on the arbor. I true my flanges so the difference between kerf width and tooth is entirely due to blade runout. A large diameter blade with 12-18" of distance front to rear gives you a frame of reference. Toe out can also be measured using the offcut but I'm happy if the square stock is firmly against both the crosscut and rip fences and the tooth looks to be centered in the kerf. Another way to judge is to crosscut a piece wider than the blade but stop the cut as soon as the front teeth have cleared. Look at both offcuts. If the mdf shows a ridge from the blade on either piece from the back edge of the blade, you know something isn't right. Only one side will show it. Dave

[Andy Giddings]

Bingo!

Thanks Andy. I used my 5-cut blank against the crosscut fence to register the piece to be cut, and was able to rip a 1" wide strip to within .004" over its 4 foot length.

The saw is officially ready for action after I add in a little toe-out to the fence for safety. Now for the J/P setup.

I also need to cut down the 48" square 3/4" birch blank I used for the 5-cut alignment to something more manageable for use as a future square reference, maybe a 24" square ? Whaddya think?
Mark, depends on what you are cutting - for example if you are trying to cut thin strips off the side of a 6ft long by 1ft wide blank, then your additional blank could be 5ft long by whatever space you have left on your crosscut fence. I'd only do this if I wanted the strips to be very accurate. Most of the time I'd use the F & F jig as described by Jim to cut strips, bumping the blank against the rip fence. You can always use the planer afterward if the variance is too much

[Warren Lake]

I understand ripping on the fence ive always had it out a bit I make a rip then just tweak it never measured it. Im stronger then my cabinet saws so material moving has never been an issue if it got severe I could power off with my knee. Now ill set up a small slider and have to respect it more with 7.5 HP. my question is not the rip fence but on the sliding table I always thought t would track perfect and not have any tow at all but then never used one so its all new. Ill digest what is here then will see what this one does when its running. We are also talking two different things when cross cutting a panel and solid wood on a fence tension release is one thing on the solid and another if any on the panel.

While not what the post is about ill just blurt out I also see people pull stuff back after their pass, both on saws and shapers with sliding tables I was taught not to do that. Make your cut remove the material after the full pass

[Mark Bolton]

I think you may be overestimating the toe on the wagon. For me personally, if you have the wagon toe-d out enough to have any effect on a cut its too much. I adjust the toe on both the fence and the wagon by sound, and cut quality. When I go all out on the slider I use a combination of the 5 cut method and sound/cut quality to dial in the wagon. Then I do a sound/cut quality adjustment on the rip fence. When I do the 5 cut method on the slider I start with largest piece of material I can (4x8). At the moment I have our slider dialed in to an immeasurable amount of error on a 4x8 square up (no error what so ever in a diagonal measure or 5th cut measure on a 49x97 sheet.

As you say, when I rip longer than the stroke of the slider the rip fence extends slightly past the end of the blade cut to a minuscule amount of toe out is necessary. Same with the wagon. I'd guess the toe on the wagon is not measurable with out NASA level instruments. No saw marks, no burn, glue line rips off the wagon every time.

If you get your wagon to that level, and still need a touch of toe on the rip fence for longer than stroke rips, like I say, Just put your fence in Hi position if you have a hi-lo and clamp a small piece to the fence. Your bump will register against that scrap as opposed to the entire fence length.

I guess it all depends on how you work as to how accurate your hoping from the rip. I cant imagine the toe of the slider every being enough to blow the tollerance on a woodworking project. With the slider you are already several orders of magnitude more accurate than conventional table saw. Not to mention increased blade life, and cut quality.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks everyone for the help and support, all is well in saw-land now.

[Chris Parks]

Typically a few thou toe out is plenty - you might need it one day if you ever use the rip fence on its own (as per a US table saw working method) as per Mark's comment. It still works as a bump stop just fine - use the cross cut fence (if the blank is wide enough) to ensure your work is square to the blade and don't try to align it with the rip fence as its a stop, not for alignment. If the blank is narrow use a known square additional blank to give you something to register against the cross cut fence with.

Just try to use roughly the same position on the rip fence as the stop.

Another way I have thought of to get around this issue is to make a point stop in the form of a round bar, either attached to the face of the rip fence and which can be removed or in place of the rip fence. This takes away the toe out issue entirely on the rip fence.

[James Zhu]

I adopted the method David Best described in the following post, simple and effective, it works perfectly when using rip fence as a stop on the slider.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/sets/72157686155149385

James

[mark mcfarlane]

I adopted the method David Best described in the following post, simple and effective, it works perfectly when using rip fence as a stop on the slider.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/sets/72157686155149385

James

Very cool idea, thanks James for sharing this.

[Jim Becker]

I adopted the method David Best described in the following post, simple and effective, it works perfectly when using rip fence as a stop on the slider.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/sets/72157686155149385

James

Wow...very interesting method.

[Chris Parks]

I have had the idea of a point stop on the fence for a while now and finally made it tonight so I thought you might like to see it. The idea overcomes the toe out/parallelism problems depending on how the rip fence is set up as the bar eliminates that problem. It does introduce another issue though in that if the bar was taken away as it would be if the rip fence was needed to rip then zero is no longer zero. For me I could overcome that problem really easily by having two Wixey heads, one each side of the Hammer rip fence clamp and each with two different zeros or one Wixey and rely on the tape that the rip head is normally set by. The short fence was obtained when I bought a new extrusion and four of us got a bit just long enough to do the job. I would not do that again, rather I would cut enough off the standard fence as it is too long IMO.



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[James Biddle]

I always thought setting a toe-out was unique to US cabinet saws because many did not have riving knives and fences continued past the back of the blade. Shouldn't a slider's wagon and sled be set dead-on parallel? We also keep the fence dead-on parallel as well because if it's toed at all, the fence distances will vary according to where end of the fence is set relative to the blade.

[Walter Plummer]

I don't know about the newer Altendorf sliders but the tune up manual for the old ones has five steps to setting one up. The sub rollers under the carriage need to be adjusted to take the weight of the sliding table in the correct order. Then what they call "free cut left" is adjusted so the slid travels just slightly away from the blade. Then "free cut right" where the rip fence is toed away from the blade. Then you do the 5 cut square up, and finally you set the scoring blade . I will try to find my copy of the manual and post some scans.

[Chris Parks]

I always thought setting a toe-out was unique to US cabinet saws because many did not have riving knives and fences continued past the back of the blade. Shouldn't a slider's wagon and sled be set dead-on parallel? We also keep the fence dead-on parallel as well because if it's toed at all, the fence distances will vary according to where end of the fence is set relative to the blade.

That is a good point James. My CC fence and rip fence are set dead square to one another and I don't seem to have problems for the few times I use the rip fence for its intended purpose. Yesterday I used the point stop I made and posted above for the first time and it is a winner as far as I am concerned. Using it on a full length fence would negate having a short one as I have done. The single reason for me using the short fence in the first place was if the rip fence is pulled back it has a huge overhang that has to be walked around and my saw has a round bar that the rip fence rides on and even if the rip fence is clamped to the bar very hard it can still fall backward due the the large overhang. The rip fence IMO is way too long as supplied by Felder and I think is a sop to the users converting from cabinet saws in the US and other markets where they are used heavily.

[John Sincerbeaux]

In 40 years of owning and operating tablesaws, I have always had my fence(s) set perfectly parallel to the blade. After reading this thread, I checked my new Martin T60C.... its dead on parallel.

[James Zhu]

In 40 years of owning and operating tablesaws, I have always had my fence(s) set perfectly parallel to the blade. After reading this thread, I checked my new Martin T60C.... its dead on parallel.

I believe on Euro slider, both rip fence and sliding table are set to be toe out to the blade, this is for preventing the kick back.

A oneway multi-gauge or similar tool is needed to set/check the toe out. See the following link to set the rip fence toe out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/23737552309/in/album-72157662870770162/

James

[James Biddle]

I can understand a little toe out to compensate for any blade flutter at the back end as posted earlier. Are we talking 0.0001 or are we talking 0.001 or 0.01 in toe out? It shouldn't need to be much more than half to the difference between the kerf of the blade and the thickness of the riving knife, right?

[David Kumm]

I set rip to square or .002 max over 3'-4'. A riving knife should be thicker than the plate of the blade but thinner than the tooth. The toe out on either the rip or slider is so slight as to be almost irrelevant. I really prefer the slider to be as close to square to the blade as I can measure. Toe out on the slider complicates more than accomplishes. Dave