Planing Thin Stock & Combination Plane Observations

[Jim Koepke]

Recently there was a question about planing stops. My impression was the original poster does not have a tail vise, so this may not work for them. My purpose with this is to show how a piece can be held between dogs and planed without problems of looseness or bowing.

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The stack in the vise opposite the workpiece not only keeps the vise from wracking it prevents applying enough pressure to the work to cause bowing.

In this case the workpiece is less than 1/4". My bad for forgetting to measure it. That can be done later if anyone cares.

It doesn't show in the picture because of the plane being over one end but this piece has reversing grain. The 'cathedrals' or spires point toward the center from each end. This kind of grain can cause a lot of problems with any but the lightest shavings.

Next up is using a Wards Master #45 (Stanley #45) to apply a pair of beads to a piece of scrap:

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Notice the waviness of the grain. This is not as bad as a reversing grain yet it can still cause problems.

The single 5/16" bead blade was touched up before starting the first bead:

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It is not clearly noticeable in this picture but for a clean finish it is important to keep the fence against the work front to back through the full length of the planing stroke. Just as important is to keep the fence vertically against the work.

The Wards Master, of all my #45s, is the most finicky in its set up. It appears the moveable skate is a touch tweaked. If considerable care ins't taken to set the skates parallel they will start binding in the cut or cause the plane to drift. It is easy enough to have the cut drift with a perfect plane if one doesn't pay careful attention to the work at hand. One indication of this is having a problem with keeping the fence against the work after the cut has been started.

When starting the first bead the blade was set to take a healthy cut and the work was done for speed. That is when unwanted stuff happens:

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DOH! Thicker shavings clog quicker. Especially with bead cutters when the top of the bead and all around the side is being cut and is trying to get out.

The second cut was made with a much lighter cut and much more attention paid to the work at hand.

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There is still some tear out on the lower bead. It is nowhere near as bad as on the top bead. The edges along the quirk also came out smoother than those on the first bead.

Notice how the grain runs near the tear out. This is where the grain is doing a wave.

After a bit of using a combination plane, looking at wood has become different. There are moments when a piece presents itself as just right for an accent such as a bead or other shaped edge decoration.

jtk

[James Pallas]

It seems to me that I always have more trouble with soft wood rather than maple, oak or walnut. Do you find the same? Do you out any back bevel on your beading irons? You always have some interesting items laying around on your bench. I think the OP in that other thread started out with one of the most difficult cuts for a combo plane and I don't believe that LV has a cam for an option yet on the combo. How about your thoughts on that. I respect your greater experience than myself with combos and have picked up some tips from you in the past.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

DOH! Thicker shavings clog quicker. Especially with bead cutters when the top of the bead and all around the side is being cut and is trying to get out.

Indeed, and combo planes have inherently compromised shaving ejection to begin with. Score another advantage for side-escapement molding planes. If only they didn't cost so much for a decently complete collection of profiles. As Matt Bickford has documented you only really need hollows+rounds, rabbets, snipe-bills, and side-beads to create any conceivable profile, but that's still a lot of planes.

I just got 4 32" 16/4 beech billets from Horizon and am planning to supplement my combos with woodies for my favorite profiles. At almost $20/bdft including shipping it's a lot to pay for Beech, but they're of remarkable quality with straight, uniform grain in almost perfect orientation. IIRC Old Street (Clark & Williams) now sources their blanks from Horizon and I can see why.

It's ironic that Stewie and I came up with more or less the same idea at exactly the same time. I ordered the blanks ~2 days before he posted about irons.

[Jim Koepke]

It seems to me that I always have more trouble with soft wood rather than maple, oak or walnut. Do you find the same? Do you out any back bevel on your beading irons? You always have some interesting items laying around on your bench. I think the OP in that other thread started out with one of the most difficult cuts for a combo plane and I don't believe that LV has a cam for an option yet on the combo. How about your thoughts on that. I respect your greater experience than myself with combos and have picked up some tips from you in the past.
Jim

Hi Jim,

My work is mostly on soft woods. They can be problematic. The hard woods, in my experience, have less tendency to splinter or tear out when the grain is straight.

My irons are not back beveled, at least not intentionally. A few of my irons may have a little back bevel left from a previous owner, but most of those have been honed away by now.

The items on the bench at this time are from working on a drawer for a piece in progress. There may be pictures of this at a later date. My favorite feature on this is one of the drawers is invisible. :confused: (hidden or disguised may be a better description.)

The cam rest is a tricky thing to use. Mine only gets used to support the plane above the work when doing stopped cuts. For making cuts far from the fence it can help to keep the plane assembly from getting out of true, but it needs continual adjustment with each pass to work properly.

Thanks for the kind words and it makes me happy to have helped.


As Matt Bickford has documented you only really need hollows+rounds, rabbets, snipe-bills, and side-beads to create any conceivable profile, but that's still a lot of planes.

Don't forget the center bead planes. 1/4" rabbet planes are not common.

My space needs to be reworked to accommodate more woodies. All my side bead planes are still stored in boxes.

jtk

[James Pallas]

The 45 I had before the current one had a cam rest the one I have now was complete except the cam. I had to let the cam go with the other plane so had to get one from Patrick Leach. After learning to use it I could not go without. For the cuts where needed I just tighten it enough to balance the plane and you can just push down and get it to move. I don't know why but I thought I got that from you a few years back. The back bevel works very well. I have a theory as to why but a long story.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

For the cuts where needed I just tighten it enough to balance the plane and you can just push down and get it to move. I don't know why but I thought I got that from you a few years back.

That may be. Since then more learning on how to use the plane and keeping it upright has made it not as needed. Though the idea of a loose cam rest is certainly older than me.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

It's ironic that Stewie and I came up with more or less the same idea at exactly the same time. I ordered the blanks ~2 days before he posted about irons.

Truly amazing timing Patrick.

[Patrick Chase]

Truly amazing timing Patrick.

Actually it's more amazing than I thought. I sent the payment to Horizon (via PayPal, happy to share my invoice if you don't believe me) at 1:59 PM Pacific on 9/29. You made your post about irons at 7:44 PM Pacific on the same day.

[Stewie Simpson]

Ease up there Patrick. I didn't suggest anything other than your timing.

Stewie;

[Jim Koepke]

Today a bit more time was taken on working thin stock. After measuring it there seemed to be more to do so a video was made:

https://youtu.be/jsa0bdnW14U

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

You don't need center beads if you've got snipe bills and hollows.

This sounds like three planes doing the job of one.

Some of my work has multiple beads or reeds which appeal to me. It is a lot less work to do it in one operation. Also less of a recipe for problems trying to cut just one bead using snipe bills and hollows. This is likely especially the case if one is trying to cut something on the order of 1/8 - 3/8".

Another obstacle to this is the cost. Snipe bill planes are few and far between and an old pair on ebay may cost as much as a vintage combination plane.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Jim; its possible Patrick was making reference to the following info; https://www.hntgordon.com.au/using-hand-tools/40-using-hand-planes/29-using-hollow-round-and-snipe-bill-planes.html

[James Pallas]

LOL The whole thing about wooden planes just tickles me. I would agree that a dedicated wooden beading plane could do a better job. I think the price quoted for one was 265 times 2 for right and left hand version. Then do that again when you want to go from 1/4" to 3/8" and so on and so on. Or you could just do 3/8" on everything. I think the irons for the LV plow are $20. Thinking out loud here.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

Jim; its possible Patrick was making reference to the following info; https://www.hntgordon.com.au/using-hand-tools/40-using-hand-planes/29-using-hollow-round-and-snipe-bill-planes.html

I deleted the comment because I felt it didn't add much, but yeah, that's basically it. I hadn't seen that specific page, but you can get the same information from a number of sources. In my case I've been working my way through Matt Bickford's book.

Stewie, out of curiosity whose floats do you use? I know you're in contact with Phil Edwards, and Don Wilwol posted a very favorable review (http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/10/24/plane-makers-float-review/) of the ones Phil makes last year. Is that what you're using, and if so what do you think of them?

I currently have a hodgepodge of Liogier, L-N, and Iwasaki floats FWIW.

[Stewie Simpson]

James; your not going to find too many traditional moulding planes bedded at 45 degrees. It defies sound logic that was well established before Stanley Co. was even a thought bubble.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

LOL The whole thing about wooden planes just tickles me. I would agree that a dedicated wooden beading plane could do a better job. I think the price quoted for one was 265 times 2 for right and left hand version. Then do that again when you want to go from 1/4" to 3/8" and so on and so on. Or you could just do 3/8" on everything. I think the irons for the LV plow are $20. Thinking out loud here.
Jim

IMO there's room for both kinds of planes.

The woodies shine in difficult situations/woods. Woodies also (and counterintuitively) have the potential to create a wider range of profiles, provided you invest in a reasonably full collection. Unfortunately such a collection costs thousands of dollars if you buy from makers like Williams, Bickford, or Edwards.

The metal combo planes are more financially accessible for most of us :-).

[Patrick Chase]

James; your not going to find too many traditional moulding planes bedded at 45 degrees. It defies sound logic that was well established before Stanley Co. was even a thought bubble.

Ignoring the assertion of superior logic, Western wooden moulding planes for use on hardwoods are indeed typically pitched at 55 deg. IIRC Terry Gordon's are higher still, but I also seem to recall that Japanese molding planes are much lower.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; will you be applying Japanese logic on your moulding planes.

[Stewie Simpson]

I deleted the comment because I felt it didn't add much, but yeah, that's basically it. I hadn't seen that specific page, but you can get the same information from a number of sources. In my case I've been working my way through Matt Bickford's book.

Stewie, out of curiosity whose floats do you use? I know you're in contact with Phil Edwards, and Don Wilwol posted a very favorable review (http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/10/24/plane-makers-float-review/) of the ones Phil makes last year. Is that what you're using, and if so what do you think of them?

I currently have a hodgepodge of Liogier, L-N, and Iwasaki floats FWIW.

Patrick; the Left and Right hand Skew Floats are included within my order from Phil Edwards; http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/floats.html

[Jim Koepke]

Jim; its possible Patrick was making reference to the following info; https://www.hntgordon.com.au/using-hand-tools/40-using-hand-planes/29-using-hollow-round-and-snipe-bill-planes.html

Possibly, those beads do look to be larger than 3/8". They also take a bit more work than using a combination plane. Though on larger sizes it may be easier to produce a smoother finish with woodies than with combies.

The finished work also differs in appearance from the work done by the bead/reed profiles of a combination plane.

Wooden hollows and rounds have a profile of 60º. Combination planes make a raised 180º profile.

There are a lot of things hollows and rounds can do a combination plane can not do. There are many things a combination plane can do any single molding plane can not do.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Am I to expect that those posting long and hard about beading planes will post something (preferably furniture) that they make with these planes? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Ignoring the assertion of superior logic, Western wooden moulding planes for use on hardwoods are indeed typically pitched at 55 deg. IIRC Terry Gordon's are higher still, but I also seem to recall that Japanese molding planes are much lower.

All of the profiled Japanese planes that I have are bedded at 38 degrees, but they all also have chip breakers except the smallest of them. All of the true molding planes that I have seen are also using double irons.

[Jim Koepke]

Am I to expect that those posting long and hard about beading planes will post something (preferably furniture) that they make with these planes? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

How about one piece of furniture and one tool tote:

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This table has four reeds. A smaller table with three reeds was made but is no longer in my possession.

The cutting of the apron details on this can be seen at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apLzrpsdcK0&t=48s

This is a detail on a tool box done years ago:

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After cutting a bead a few gouges were used to make the balls and short beads, Another name for them could be dots and dashes. If you know Morse code you know the letters are:

jtk

Thanks for the offer Pat, butter is fine as long as it is virtual.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; will you be applying Japanese logic on your moulding planes.

Nope, I'll be pitching them at 55 deg as is common for Western-style moulding planes.

My point was merely that there isn't a single "correct angle". They're all over the place, particularly if you consider planes from non-Western traditions.

[steven c newman]

Butter, no salt...
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3/8" Cherry...Side for a Candy Box. Middle groove was for splitting the lid off.
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Sometimes, it is easier to run the plane along the other edge..
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I used the long rods because the short rods were...well, too short...
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I always use a jig....sometimes it is just easier to have the fence hanging off in mid-air...easier on my knuckles..
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Just as long as the grooves turn out the way I want them...
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Sometimes..
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Depends on what I need made..
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Might wind up "Tongue-tied"?:eek:

[James Pallas]

Am I to expect that those posting long and hard about beading planes will post something (preferably furniture) that they make with these planes? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek
Per your direction
Jim

[James Pallas]

Am I to expect that those posting long and hard about beading planes will post something (preferably furniture) that they make with these planes? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek
A few more just for fun.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, I asume you will be running sandpaper over your bead?

https://s19.postimg.org/5wnenndf7/Steven_s_bead1.jpg

It's a bit rough, mate.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

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I seem to recall the other one was a work in progress, whereas this one is as COMPLETED....
Used a couple more passes to finish smoothing the grooves.....
First picture was a blog showing HOW I was making that box....not the Project Post. The bead also goes all the way around this box. Wood is figured Cherry.
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Just a box, to hold a few squares...
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Nothing real fancy....

Merely using up some scraps....

[Prashun Patel]

i would hate to shut down a great thread. Please stop goading each other.