Combination Plane and Lee Valley feedback

[William Fretwell]

After planing a splendid piece of white oak 5" wide & 1.5" thick I decided it needed a beaded corner instead of just rounded. I assembled the 3/8 beading cutter and long rods on my combination plane. Gingerly I lowered the cutter, balanced the plane and began my cut. It did not go well. I adjusted the skates. I lifted the back of the plane and managed to start a groove. I worked backwards gradually. Keeping the plane level is very difficult. If you put your thumb on top of the fence and your work piece you get more control and possibly some splinters. The brass knobs repeatedly came loose and caused wracking of the plane. My cut wavered, wobbled & jammed. The fence is not long enough at full extension I said to myself, have to replace it with a longer one (have some black walnut for that). Despite being fully on the rod the brass screws came loose. The knobs are a bit small. The skate knobs are a bit bigger and feel much better in the fingers.

After half an hour I looked at the hacked up bead, the blade cuts string but does not seem that sharp. I tried it left hand, right hand but no joy. I removed the left side altogether. I put the plane down turned the wood around and glued my slab of black walnut over the oak, almost hiding the attempt, a block plane round over it is.

Then I noticed my phone had rung. I called back. "Lee Valley here just wondering how your combination plane is going?" "It seems you are the only person to have bought one in south west Ontario". "We have had reports of wracking, how is yours?" Well knock me down with a feather!

I explained what I had been doing that morning. The fence is too short, the rods too short, the knobs are too small & come loose and yes it ends up wracking. It is also horrible to balance sideways and with the skate. The little blade knob stops you using the left skate properly as the head jams up against it.

I explained the tester for the product must have had their eyes closed. If the rods were wider the screw area on the rod could be larger and more effective.

She invited me to return it if I wish. I have to try some other cuts with it. My oak bead cut was not the easiest but the other issues at full extension won't go away.

My gut feeling also says the blade bed angle is wrong and the blades are not that sharp.

[Patrick Chase]

Err, did you hone the iron before you used it?

One thing that is true of all combination planes is that they require extremely sharp irons. No factory grind, not even LV's, is going to "cut it" literally or figuratively.

There is a technique to using a combination plane without putting excessive pressure on the rods. The general idea is that you register the fence to the work with your left hand and push the skate[s] forward with your right. The left hand should not supply any forward force, and the right hand should not supply any lateral force. The sort of trouble you got into is what happens when you mix the two, particularly if the pressure that registers the fence to the work is being carried by the rods (it should be "contained" within the fence, flowing from your left hand to the fence grip and thence to the wood). Having a dull iron also complicates matters as it increases forces across the board.

Combo planes require some investments in technique. They're complex and fundamentally somewhat compromised tools that aren't for everyone.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; you seem to enjoy quoting Patrick Leach's site. Have a real hard look at his comments on the #45. http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan6.htm

Stewie;

I know those comments and his thoughts on the topic well - Patrick sold me my #55. Even he would (and does) admit that increased cutting angle isn't a panacea.

[Bill Houghton]

Patrick and Stewie,

To quote an acquaintance of mine from a different forum, you guys are about equally matched for distance; how about trying for height now?

Your discussions of the ins and outs of combination planes, cutting angle, and so on are interesting. Your attacks on each other embarrass both of you and irritate others (at least, me).

[brian zawatsky]

After planing a splendid piece of white oak 5" wide & 1.5" thick I decided it needed a beaded corner instead of just rounded. I assembled the 3/8 beading cutter and long rods on my combination plane. Gingerly I lowered the cutter, balanced the plane and began my cut. It did not go well. I adjusted the skates. I lifted the back of the plane and managed to start a groove. I worked backwards gradually. Keeping the plane level is very difficult. If you put your thumb on top of the fence and your work piece you get more control and possibly some splinters. The brass knobs repeatedly came loose and caused wracking of the plane. My cut wavered, wobbled & jammed. The fence is not long enough at full extension I said to myself, have to replace it with a longer one (have some black walnut for that). Despite being fully on the rod the brass screws came loose. The knobs are a bit small. The skate knobs are a bit bigger and feel much better in the fingers.

After half an hour I looked at the hacked up bead, the blade cuts string but does not seem that sharp. I tried it left hand, right hand but no joy. I removed the left side altogether. I put the plane down turned the wood around and glued my slab of black walnut over the oak, almost hiding the attempt, a block plane round over it is.

Then I noticed my phone had rung. I called back. "Lee Valley here just wondering how your combination plane is going?" "It seems you are the only person to have bought one in south west Ontario". "We have had reports of wracking, how is yours?" Well knock me down with a feather!

I explained what I had been doing that morning. The fence is too short, the rods too short, the knobs are too small & come loose and yes it ends up wracking. It is also horrible to balance sideways and with the skate. The little blade knob stops you using the left skate properly as the head jams up against it.

I explained the tester for the product must have had their eyes closed. If the rods were wider the screw area on the rod could be larger and more effective.

She invited me to return it if I wish. I have to try some other cuts with it. My oak bead cut was not the easiest but the other issues at full extension won't go away.

My gut feeling also says the blade bed angle is wrong and the blades are not that sharp.

I don't have the LV combo plane, but having used combination planes from a couple different vintage makers (Siegley & Stanley), I can offer a couple observations.

1- Like Patrick said above, your iron needs to be super sharp. Like sharp so that if you look at it wrong it cuts you. That kind of sharp. Never trust any cutting edge out of the box; chisel, plane iron, whatever. They always at least need a light honing.

2- Combination planes are tricky to use, and a coarse grained hardwood like oak is a lousy wood to learn on. If you've never used one before, I'd make some practice cuts in poplar or something similar to get the feel for the plane.

3- Grain selection is very important because of the lack of a mouth or chip breaker. You'll get much better results in straight grained (quartered or rift) pieces than you will in flat cut stock with rising and or reversing grain.

4- My observations are not intended to offend. I don't know your experience level, and I do know that Lee Valley makes high quality tools. This leads me to believe that a little work on technique could alleviate some or all of the issues you're having. JMO

[steven c newman]

Been using my Stanley 45 for over a year now.....
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Done with a single bead cutter, made with two cuts, one down each outside face of the leg.
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Simple bead along the edge of an apron......
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Set the fence just right...and make a second bead beside the first one..
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Easy as can be...YMMV

[Jim Koepke]

Like Patrick said above, your iron needs to be super sharp.

Yes they do. Even with a sharp blade, you sometimes have to take just a little bit at a time. If all is going well, then it may be possible to advance the cutter and hog the waste.


Combination planes are tricky to use, and a coarse grained hardwood like oak is a lousy wood to learn on. If you've never used one before, I'd make some practice cuts in poplar or something similar to get the feel for the plane.

It took me a lot of using a #45 before my skill level got to a point of being what might be considered proficient in its use. There are a lot of moving parts with each one playing a part. My camera is out in the shop or my image of a #45 in use could be posted here. One of the tips on using a combination plane is to pay attention to how the fence is riding the edge of the work. There shouldn't be any gap opening up between the fence and the work either lengthwise or vertically. Side motion or wobbling can lead to binding or cuts going off track. Going slow and deliberate is the "training wheels" of using a combination plane. Learn accuracy first, then the speed will follow.


Grain selection is very important because of the lack of a mouth or chip breaker. You'll get much better results in straight grained (quartered or rift) pieces than you will in flat cut stock with rising and or reversing grain.

Plus 1,000 on this.

When working on a project with plowing, beading or other combination or molding plane work the selection process for the wood for these operations is in need of extra attention. Some woods can be dealt with by planing them left handed. Other pieces will be trouble no matter what. Sometimes scoring the wood with nickers, a slitting knife or gauge can help.

My work is in usually in soft woods. My guess is the #45's blade angle may have been chosen with the idea of it mostly being used on soft woods.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I use a 45 for some task on nearly every build. There is a learning curve. If I can give any advice it would be this. Sharp is a necessity. Straight and smooth material. Small bites both in depth and the length when starting a cut. Be gentle, hold the fence against the work don't jamb it against the work. Get your elbow in line with the work and set yourself up so you can keep it that way. If you start cutting and the feel is rough or jerky something is amiss. Back off the depth and look for other obstacles. Once I figured it out it became a lot easier.
Jim

[William Fretwell]

The comments here are no surprise! Interesting that no one comments on the tool, except the fact that it was not sharp enough. The edge is made of the 'new' PV11 and of course is somewhat awkward to sharpen with fine sand paper and dowels.
The grain was very straight along the corner, the little edge cutters did seem quite sharp and I progressed slowly. Holding the plane at full extension is difficult but the brass knobs did come loose repeatedly.
Oak is not the easiest wood but that is the wood I was using, I do very little in pine (drawer bottoms) but I love working with it.
I hope it does not just work in easy woods. I will try sharpening the blade and a smaller extension in cherry, which is the easiest wood I know! I do see a longer fence helping and I have some black walnut for that job.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi William

12 months ago, Lee Valley offered a modification for the Small Plow to use beading blades. I wrote my thoughts on this here (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallPlowasaBeadingPlane.html).

At some stage I will write a "review" of sorts about the Combo, but there is enough about the plane in print already - in fact, the soon-to-be-published FWW mag will contain a review. What I plan to write is how to get the best from the plane for the new user.

Now the thing is that these are not my favourite planes. I really like the Combo for planing grooves, and even rebates. It is good for dados. But beads? This is an issue that comes down to the wood you use because these planes (I include ALL planes that work with a skate and lack a sole/mouth) are difficult to use with anything that smells of reversing grain.

I have written before that, if I were designing and building a beading plane for Australian woods, which are interlocked (reversing grain), I would have a 60 degree bed. High cutting angles, so produced, do not require a mouth. However, this is largely unnecessary with the timbers of the USA and UK, which are generally straighter grained. And you have a better selection than we do. Leaving the bed at a common angle (45 degrees) on the Veritas permits the use of Stanley blades. You could not do so if the bed angle changed - it would alter the shape of the bead.

To get around this (see the article I linked to above), I suggested using a back bevel on the blades. I suggest 15 degrees to take the cutting angle to 60 degrees. This is what I wrote ...

The backbevel is about 0.5mm wide. It is only on the flats. That is where the tearout occurs. A high cutting angle there prevents the tearout. You can backbevel the hollow at the baseline with a dowel and 2000 grit sandpaper, but this is not necessary if you set your depth stop to end at the tip of the final thickness. The insides of the bevel are cutting on a skew.



Here is a picture of two beads. One is with the grain and the other is into the grain. Can you spot which is which? :)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallPlowasaBeadingPlane_html_1eda653f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Latest projects I have been working on have been Walnut, and quite a bit of Hard Maple
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Whether ploughing grooves..
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Or, using a Match cutter...

[Jim Koepke]

The comments here are no surprise! Interesting that no one comments on the tool, except the fact that it was not sharp enough.

Any comment of mine isn't from experience on this plane since one hasn't been in my shop. My comments are based on experience with other plane of similar use. In my experience Veritas blades are sharp enough right out of the box.


the brass knobs did come loose repeatedly.

This is one I forgot to address. This problem isn't unique to the LV plane. On most of my planes being more diligent in tightening was needed. On one plane in particular, a Record #778, the screws are checked regularly in use. This doesn't sound right for the LV plane.


Holding the plane at full extension is difficult but the brass knobs did come loose repeatedly.

It is unclear to me what is meant by, "Holding the plane at full extension." You original post mentions placing a bead along an edge. For this the fence should be next to the edge being worked. Trying to cut a bead all the way across a piece is a much more difficult task.


Then I noticed my phone had rung. I called back. "Lee Valley here just wondering how your combination plane is going?" "It seems you are the only person to have bought one in south west Ontario". "We have had reports of wracking, how is yours?" Well knock me down with a feather!

This makes me wonder if there could have been a manufacturing flaw or error discovered on some of the planes. It might be productive to give them a call and ask them about this issue. Stay calm and see if it is something that an exchange might correct. My experience in manufacturing taught me Quality Control is seldom 100% on any part or product. Sometimes things slip through. Usually QC is based on a representative sample from a batch of parts. Sometimes errant parts slip through. The whole system is run by people and sometimes people make mistakes.


The little blade knob stops you using the left skate properly as the head jams up against it.

With the small plow the left skate isn't used with the narrow blades. The combination plane may be the same way.


The edge is made of the 'new' PV11 and of course is somewhat awkward to sharpen with fine sand paper and dowels.

You may want to invest in some water stones if you do not already have some. You may also want to slip stones like these:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=33013&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1.

As mentioned above, my experience with the Veritas blades on the small plow plane was they were sharp enough out of the box. Did you try any of the blades before sharpening them?

jtk

[john zulu]

Any comment of mine isn't from experience on this plane since one hasn't been in my shop. My comments are based on experience with other plane of similar use. In my experience Veritas blades are sharp enough right out of the box.



This is one I forgot to address. This problem isn't unique to the LV plane. On most of my planes being more diligent in tightening was needed. On one plane in particular, a Record #778, the screws are checked regularly in use. This doesn't sound right for the LV plane.



It is unclear to me what is meant by, "Holding the plane at full extension." You original post mentions placing a bead along an edge. For this the fence should be next to the edge being worked. Trying to cut a bead all the way across a piece is a much more difficult task.



This makes me wonder if there could have been a manufacturing flaw or error discovered on some of the planes. It might be productive to give them a call and ask them about this issue. Stay calm and see if it is something that an exchange might correct. My experience in manufacturing taught me Quality Control is seldom 100% on any part or product. Sometimes things slip through. Usually QC is based on a representative sample from a batch of parts. Sometimes errant parts slip through. The whole system is run by people and sometimes people make mistakes.



With the small plow the left skate isn't used with the narrow blades. The combination plane may be the same way.



You may want to invest in some water stones if you do not already have some. You may also want to slip stones like these:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=33013&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1.

As mentioned above, my experience with the Veritas blades on the small plow plane was they were sharp enough out of the box. Did you try any of the blades before sharpening them?

jtk

So far all the blades from the plow plane are sharp for me too.
OP: Get in touch to LV for a return or exchange.

[Bill McNiel]

Patrick and Stewie,

To quote an acquaintance of mine from a different forum, you guys are about equally matched for distance; how about trying for height now?

Your discussions of the ins and outs of combination planes, cutting angle, and so on are interesting. Your attacks on each other embarrass both of you and irritate others (at least, me).

Amen Brother, very well articulated (IMHO).

[Patrick Chase]

This is one I forgot to address. This problem isn't unique to the LV plane. On most of my planes being more diligent in tightening was needed. On one plane in particular, a Record #778, the screws are checked regularly in use. This doesn't sound right for the LV plane.

My Veritas combo's skates and fence locks up tight. I have more trouble with fences working loose on my #55, though that's partially because there are flats worn into the conical tips of the fence screws (those screws are such a design kludge that I'm not convinced that having 2 fence positions was really worth the hassle). I have it on my list to make a fixture to reshape those.

As I said in a previous post I'm pretty careful about how much force I transmit through the rods though. They're simply not made to be pushed/yanked around aggressively, either in the original or the LV.



With the small plow the left skate isn't used with the narrow blades. The combination plane may be the same way.

That's correct. The minimum blade width for dual-skate operation is 1/4"



You may want to invest in some water stones if you do not already have some. You may also want to slip stones like these:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=33013&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1.

Or these (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/NO-SLIPROLL), if you feel like going overboard. I prefer oilstones (and specifically Arks) to waterstones for shaped tools, because the oilstones hold their shape better.

The waterstone slips that LV and others sell are older-style Matsunaga (King) and not so terrific IMO. I've cut up Shapton 2K and 8K stones and a Sigma 1K Hard to make slips, and both of those work pretty nicely. The other option that people use a fair bit these days is to stick PSA lapping film to wooden forms.

[Chet R Parks]

Just my 2 cents. I recently used the LV combo to cut a bunch of grooves 1/4 wide x 1/4 deep in 1/2 inch thick cherry, both in the long grain and across grain. I even cut about a dozen grooves in 5 ply, 1/4 inch plywood, 3/32 deep. I didn't experience any problems with knobs, or fences. I use the Spyderco ultra fine stone for all my honing. I have vary seldom used a combination plane of any brand before so I thought this plane did a vary good job and glad to have it.
Chet

[steven c newman]

Sooo, then why is the OP's plane such a mess? Maybe like Wood River, and their Versions 1, 2, and 3?

[Thomas Schneider]

"Lee Valley here just wondering how your combination plane is going?" "It seems you are the only person to have bought one in south west Ontario". "We have had reports of wracking, how is yours?" Seems to me they know there is a problem with the plane. Wracking will affect all other aspects of how well the plane works. That being said, one of my favorite quotes from the woodworking forums is "Sharp fixes everything" (I don't know who first said it). As has been stated in this post earlier, Combo plane irons need to be very sharp to give quality results, at least that's my experience. YMMD.

[William Adams]

One thing which I've always been curious of is commentary that combination planes were developed back in the days of old growth timber w/ wonderfully straight and even grain, with at least one writer noting that they weren't suited on lumber which was not thus.

[John Gornall]

The OP wanted to have a 3/8" bead on the edge of a piece of white oak. A number of tools and methods can do this. Is a metal plow plane the best?

[John Gornall]

William - can you post pictures of the plane as you had it set up? I'm curious why you needed the long rods to cut a bead on an edge and what you mean by full extension.

[steven c newman]

For me..it is. Have been using my #45 on Hard maple, Curly Maple.

[Patrick Chase]

The OP wanted to have a 3/8" bead on the edge of a piece of white oak. A number of tools and methods can do this. Is a metal plow plane the best?

No, the "best" would probably be a dedicated 3/8" side-escapement beading plane. Larry Williams will sell you a perfectly serviceable one for the low low price of only $295, though in fairness you can get one for a bit less from somebody like Matt Bickford or Phil Edwards.

The problem of course is that not everybody can afford (or find places to store) enough wooden moulding planes for every profile they want to use, which is why metal combo planes exist to begin with.

FWIW if I had to do this using only the tools I have on hand, then I'd probably establish the rough shape with a combo plane, and finish up with a scratch stock if I can't get the tearout under control any other way (though back beveling works pretty well...).

[Hasin Haroon]

Sorry to hear of your issues William. I haven't had the opportunity to try cutting a bead with mine yet but for simple grooving (and also reeding) I've found it to work fantastic, no wracking or loosening of knobs at all...miles better than a Stanley 45. Can't see why beading would be different if you set it up right. I remember the first time I actually nailed down the technique for using fenced planes, holding it in place using the fence and just gently providing a forward push with the tote. Till then my experience was somewhate as you described, but I can't see why your rods would be wracking.

Not saying that lee valley didn't call you but I'm a bit skeptical about what they said as you described it....from my past experience with lee valley, if the issues were bad enough for them to call one person about it, they would've called all of us and offered to exchange or return the planes. Unless you got yours from a faulty manufacturing batch, it sounds very odd. Maybe Rob Lee can provide some input...how is it we summon him again?!

[Jim Koepke]

The comments here are no surprise! Interesting that no one comments on the tool, except the fact that it was not sharp enough.


Sooo, then why is the OP's plane such a mess? Maybe like Wood River, and their Versions 1, 2, and 3?

We do not have enough information to know why there is a problem. Most of the replies have been based on what people have experienced in the past with other combination planes. My question about what Mr. Fretwell means by full extension has been asked by at least one other and remains unanswered. If he was cutting an edge bead on a board on the side opposite of the fence this could explain why he was having a problem. Then again he could have been talking about his arm or body extension. This could introduce a different problem.

The sharpness of the blade is a common problem for almost any plane. This may be why this was considered by many to be a most likely culprit. Though it isn't common to get a Veritas blade that isn't ready out of the box.

It could be a problem with the piece of wood being used. It is a common occurrence to have a bead or other detail messed up by uncooperative grain.

It could be a manufacturing problem or it could be operator error. In my experience, all of the above mentioned problems could have coalesced to ruin Mr. Fretwell's work.

Did your Stanley #45 work first time every time without any difficulties? If so, you may be due a spot in the Guinness Book of Records.

This thread is approaching 30 replies to the OP trying to determine why he had problems without any images or explanations of some of his terminology.

To me it is a good sign that so many people are willing to put an effort into helping someone solve a problem when those trying to help are in essence working blind.

If the plane wracks (i.e. there is movement between the main body, the rods and the fence when things are tight, then there is a problem with the tool and it should be exchanged.

If the plane is stiff and wracking in the work, then this is common and is usually corrected with experience over time. My knowledge of this comes from experience, one can learn a lot from their failures if they remain calm about it.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Learning the 45 was easy, actually...I read the instructions...watched as many videos as I could fine, so that I would understand how it worked...BEFORE I tried each of the 7 different set-ups.

[William Fretwell]

Yes when I find my camera and get back in the shop.

[William Fretwell]

I doubt there is a batch number, I will check the box. "All of us" is apparently just me. I guess if there is an issue they start somewhere and that is close to home, that was the conversation; skeptical or not. I know the woman that called me by sight, heck I used to drive past their door twice a day for years and was often a little late home!

[Patrick Chase]

I doubt there is a batch number, I will check the box. "All of us" is apparently just me. I guess if there is an issue they start somewhere and that is close to home, that was the conversation; skeptical or not. I know the woman that called me by sight, heck I used to drive past their door twice a day for years and was often a little late home!

I have the Combo and they haven't reached out to me, nor have I had racking problems ("wrack" is an old English word for "wreck" and is probably not what you were trying to say).

Combos are among the most difficult of all planes to use, so IMO Lee Valley took a bit of a risk by bringing this to market. It is inevitable that some customers will be dissatisfied with any such plane, and that's going to be particularly true for folks who expect the sort of "fire-and-forget" ease of use that many LV tools deliver.

I'm sure that LV recognized that inherent "brand risk" when they decided to offer the Combo plane, and it would not surprise me if they've implemented some sort of program to identify and reach out to "customers of concern". They could prioritize customers for outreach based on purchasing habits or (in your case) historical face-to-face interactions, for example.

In short I don't see any reason to doubt your account, though I also think that your expectations for ease of use may be unrealistic for this sort of plane. They inherently require some learning and/or practice.

[John Gornall]

The first time I used a metal plow plane I had unhappy results. Went to a fellow woodworker for some demonstrations and instructions. Some practise and I'm good - of course the wood sometimes argues.

[Stewie Simpson]

William; if your keen to apply beading profiles on a greater diversity of timbers you may want to consider purchasing some dedicated Side Bead moulding planes. As outlined previously by others, there are a number of planemaker's within the USA that can provide that service. I chose to deal through Phil Edwards from the U.K. I placed an order with Phil on the 5/9 for the 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" Side Beads in Right and Left hand format with 55 degree beds. Phil is also supplying me with a set of Snipes Bills and Side Rounds. To better understand the difference between unsprung and sprung moulding planes, the following is a worthwhile read. http://homepages.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/chapters/hkean.html

Hopefully things work out to your satisfaction with your newly acquired Combo Plane.

regards Stewie;

[William Fretwell]

William; if your keen to apply beading profiles on a greater diversity of timbers you may want to consider purchasing some dedicated Side Bead moulding planes. As outlined previously by others, there are a number of planemaker's within the USA that can provide that service. I chose to deal through Phil Edwards from the U.K. I placed an order with Phil on the 5/9 for the 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" Side Beads in Right and Left hand format with 55 degree beds. Phil is also supplying me with a set of Snipes Bills and Side Rounds. To better understand the difference between unsprung and sprung moulding planes, the following is a worthwhile read. http://homepages.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/chapters/hkean.html

Hopefully things work out to your satisfaction with your newly acquired Combo Plane.

regards Stewie;

Thanks Stewie, That's exactly what I was thinking for beads! I hope the plane will do grooves a lot better so I will try a few more cuts.

[Mike Brady]

I recently returned my LV combination plane after determining that it wasn't for me. I did take it to the shop of a friend of mine who also has the plane and likes his very much. We shared the cutters that we bought and tried dadoes, beads and such. My needs can be satisfied by the Small Plow plane that I got several years ago. Once the shared knowledge about this plane grows, outcomes will probably improve. Threads like this can help that, as would would more information from the maker.

[William Fretwell]

I have the Combo and they haven't reached out to me, nor have I had racking problems ("wrack" is an old English word for "wreck" and is probably not what you were trying to say).

Combos are among the most difficult of all planes to use, so IMO Lee Valley took a bit of a risk by bringing this to market. It is inevitable that some customers will be dissatisfied with any such plane, and that's going to be particularly true for folks who expect the sort of "fire-and-forget" ease of use that many LV tools deliver.

I'm sure that LV recognized that inherent "brand risk" when they decided to offer the Combo plane, and it would not surprise me if they've implemented some sort of program to identify and reach out to "customers of concern". They could prioritize customers for outreach based on purchasing habits or (in your case) historical face-to-face interactions, for example.

In short I don't see any reason to doubt your account, though I also think that your expectations for ease of use may be unrealistic for this sort of plane. They inherently require some learning and/or practice.
My old english chartered mechanical engineer father used wrack. Your 'customers of concern' idea is hilarious! There are collectors and users in the tool world, I'm a user. All my tools get used and I've done so for a very long time. Clearly I expect to learn a new tool and perhaps full extension edge beads are not possible in tricky wood. Clearly I'm not the first to find this as they called me! Never in 30 years have they called me except for back orders arriving.

[Pat Barry]

My old english chartered mechanical engineer father used wrack. Your 'customers of concern' idea is hilarious! There are collectors and users in the tool world, I'm a user. All my tools get used and I've done so for a very long time. Clearly I expect to learn a new tool and perhaps full extension edge beads are not possible in tricky wood. Clearly I'm not the first to find this as they called me! Never in 30 years have they called me except for back orders arriving.
There is one thing that hasn't been mentioned regarding this issue you experienced and that is, the reference side needs to be exactly parallel to the side you are cutting. If not, there will be racking. Could you verify the parallelism? Secondly, equally important, is the tool set up with the guide exactly parallel to the main body? With so many adjustments it would be easy to get one off just enough, and it wouldn't take much for the operation to be doomed to failure. Large amounts of torque would be created and you couldnt overcome that.
Once the cut goes bad, for whatever reason, trying to 'fix' it will be much more difficult. Starting off with parallel sides on the board and the tool and taking very light cuts is super important.

[Graham Haydon]

Excellent tip from Stewie. Further, if I wanted to work a small bead on a edge I'd rather use a screw in a block of wood. It leaves a much more crisp, narrow and fine detail. Contrast that with typical multi plane irons of any brand http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/Page.aspx?p=74143&cat=1,230,41182,43698 which leaves results that look like they came from a router cutter or shaper.

[Rob Lee]

Hi,

Am at the cottage, with spurious internet. It is also Thanksgiving weekend up here...so a bit tough to get ahold of staff, so I will have to go on my memory...which, while I trust is accurate, I will still have to verify on Tuesday.
Firstly, I am aware of only one ticket opened against this plane, and that was for some epoxy bleed-through at the base of some handles. We pulled and checked stock for this, though some customers may have planes with this. Of course, we will put right any with this cosmetic issue.

There is no customer call program in place... I suspect Mr Fretwell was called by London store staff as a follow-up...just being proactive. I still have to verify this.

The planes are in continuous production at this time, so there are no different batches.

One of the first customers to receive the plane did note that it was difficult to get the fence onto the rods - but once on, the fence moved freely. We diagnosed this as an order of operations error....the rods in the body were being clamped in place before the fence was mounted. The precision to which we machine holes in fence and body is such that there is only enough play in the system to assemble if everything is left loose. This is where I expect the store contacted Mr Fretwell - to see if he had a similar issue. I have no idea by whom or how the term wracking was introduced into the conversation, though it seems to have been. Most likely it was used before the assembly sequence explanation was diagnosed.

As with any fenced plane, there is a learning curve to its set-up and use...and this one is no different. I will ask the store to set up a session with their Veritas champion (product expert) at his convenience to work through any issues he is having. This is something we are always pleased to do, for any product.

Cheers,

Rob Lee

[William Fretwell]

There is one thing that hasn't been mentioned regarding this issue you experienced and that is, the reference side needs to be exactly parallel to the side you are cutting. If not, there will be racking. Could you verify the parallelism? Secondly, equally important, is the tool set up with the guide exactly parallel to the main body? With so many adjustments it would be easy to get one off just enough, and it wouldn't take much for the operation to be doomed to failure. Large amounts of torque would be created and you couldnt overcome that.
Once the cut goes bad, for whatever reason, trying to 'fix' it will be much more difficult. Starting off with parallel sides on the board and the tool and taking very light cuts is super important.
Pat you are quite right, all those things are important. The rod ends were all set the same, just fully seated, as the rods are the same length that makes it parallel.
When the cutter catches even a little it twists. You try again until you see one or more knobs are loose, then the cut is in trouble, then it gets worse. Clearly I have to hone the cutter to eliminate that variable. All tools have limitations. Holding the plane level is not easy for a bead cut at full extension. I'm sure I will find cuts it does well, drawer bottom rebate springs to mind; however with all those cutters it has to do far more.

[William Fretwell]

Rob Lee is arranging what I hope will be a hands on with a Veritas expert at their closest store. I hope to make a small mess on the floor!

[Frederick Skelly]

Rob Lee is arranging what I hope will be a hands on with a Veritas expert at their closest store. I hope to make a small mess on the floor!

Appreciate you letting us know this William.
Hope the lesson is time well spent.
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

One of the first customers to receive the plane did note that it was difficult to get the fence onto the rods - but once on, the fence moved freely. We diagnosed this as an order of operations error....the rods in the body were being clamped in place before the fence was mounted. The precision to which we machine holes in fence and body is such that there is only enough play in the system to assemble if everything is left loose.

Hah, I learned that the very first day I had the plane. Pretty easy to figure out, though.

If you've ever used a 45/55 then one thing you notice right away is how much "tighter" everything is on the LV.

[Patrick Chase]

My old english chartered mechanical engineer father used wrack. Your 'customers of concern' idea is hilarious! There are collectors and users in the tool world, I'm a user. All my tools get used and I've done so for a very long time. Clearly I expect to learn a new tool and perhaps full extension edge beads are not possible in tricky wood. Clearly I'm not the first to find this as they called me! Never in 30 years have they called me except for back orders arriving.

You're making incorrect assumptions about what I meant. "Collectors" wouldn't be as much of a concern as "users" for the simple reason that collectors by definition don't subject their tools to heavy use.

It sounds like they don't do what I hypothesized in any case, but FWIW my "armchair profile" of a problem customer is a "user" who doesn't have a lot of prior exposure to this class of plane (combos, ploughs, etc). Based on your comments in this thread that description appears to fit you fairly well.

[Jim Koepke]

Rob Lee is arranging what I hope will be a hands on with a Veritas expert at their closest store. I hope to make a small mess on the floor!

This is possibly the greatest part about Lee Valley. Well at least for those who live close enough to the store.

Please let us know how this works for you.


FWIW my "armchair profile" of a problem customer is a "user" who doesn't have a lot of prior exposure to this class of plane (combos, ploughs, etc).

From the other side of the "armchair" this is potentially a fantastic customer. Once they have been shown the ways of the tool they can become an evangelist for the store.

Sometimes the glass is half full, sometimes it is half empty. Then sometimes all it needs is a few ice cubes.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

From the other side of the "armchair" this is potentially a fantastic customer. Once they have been shown the ways of the tool they can become an evangelist for the store.

Sometimes the glass is half full, sometimes it is half empty. Then sometimes all it needs is a few ice cubes.


Oh absolutely. We've all been there at some point with every new sort of tool we adopt. I meant "problem" in the sense of "likely to have an initially negative reaction", i.e. the concern I touched on in a previous post.

[Noah Magnuson]

I am also trying to understand what the need for full (or any) extension is in the process of beading an edge. The question was asked by a couple of others. If I missed the clarification, I apologize. Could you elaborate on what exactly you are doing, and maybe there can be a better approach that will give you good results?


... Holding the plane level is not easy for a bead cut at full extension. I'm sure I will find cuts it does well, drawer bottom rebate springs to mind; however with all those cutters it has to do far more.

[Hasin Haroon]

Hi,

Am at the cottage, with spurious internet. It is also Thanksgiving weekend up here...so a bit tough to get ahold of staff, so I will have to go on my memory...which, while I trust is accurate, I will still have to verify on Tuesday.
Firstly, I am aware of only one ticket opened against this plane, and that was for some epoxy bleed-through at the base of some handles. We pulled and checked stock for this, though some customers may have planes with this. Of course, we will put right any with this cosmetic issue.

There is no customer call program in place... I suspect Mr Fretwell was called by London store staff as a follow-up...just being proactive. I still have to verify this.

The planes are in continuous production at this time, so there are no different batches.

One of the first customers to receive the plane did note that it was difficult to get the fence onto the rods - but once on, the fence moved freely. We diagnosed this as an order of operations error....the rods in the body were being clamped in place before the fence was mounted. The precision to which we machine holes in fence and body is such that there is only enough play in the system to assemble if everything is left loose. This is where I expect the store contacted Mr Fretwell - to see if he had a similar issue. I have no idea by whom or how the term wracking was introduced into the conversation, though it seems to have been. Most likely it was used before the assembly sequence explanation was diagnosed.

As with any fenced plane, there is a learning curve to its set-up and use...and this one is no different. I will ask the store to set up a session with their Veritas champion (product expert) at his convenience to work through any issues he is having. This is something we are always pleased to do, for any product.

Cheers,

Rob Lee

This whole situation makes a lot more sense now. A call from an acquaintance who works at Lee valley is different from a call from Lee valley customer service saying there are known issues with the plane.

From the little use I've had so far with mine, it is a lot better than the combination planes of old. I hope you enjoy your demonstration William, and be sure to share any interesting tidbits you learn with us!

[Jim Koepke]

From the little use I've had so far with mine, it is a lot better than the combination planes of old.

My opinion is the same after having a chance to use the small plow plane.

It would be a hard sell if it didn't offer improvements over the combination planes of old.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

My opinion is the same after having a chance to use the small plow plane.

It would be a hard sell if it didn't offer improvements over the combination planes of old.

I have the LV combo and a #55. I've also tried the #45. As I alluded above, the most obvious difference is an overall feeling of "tightness" and precision. Everything mates precisely and locks down securely, with no observable tendencies towards "cocking" or other misalignments. The next most obvious difference is weight/bulk, with the LV being noticeably lighter and more compact-seeming in use.

For the life of me I cannot understand what a user could do to get that plane to "rack" in any commonly accepted sense of the word. The rods are thinner than in the Stanleys, but the overall stiffness, including mechanical slop in the various interfaces, is better IMO. I went down to the shop and tried my best to get it to rack earlier today (mostly by intentionally "crossing up" my left- and right-hand inputs to transmit as much force as possible through the rods), but I couldn't.

For an example of the sort of vice that the LV *doesn't* have but that the older planes do, the 55's front and rear fence tension knobs tend to "crawl" in opposite directions along the rods, causing the fence to become cocked relative to the skate. Like its other similar vices this isn't a killer (it's easy enough to compensate), but it undoubtedly contributes to the 55's reputation for being tricky to adjust.

[James Pallas]

My 2cents. I believe it is similar to a marking gauge if you hang it off on edge and push down expecting the wheel or bade to crawl back up on top. If the iron is in a cut and the fence try's to pull it sideways it is enough torque to pull the fence out. It would not take much. A board a 64th out of parallel would ruin the cut and cause all kinds of grief if you keep pushing. My experience has been if the plane does not go along smoothly something is amiss. For me cutting beads is an easy push. You can take some deeper cuts when plowing and possibly get ragged edges but if you pull against a bead it will tear up the works. You can also make a big mess of things with improperly set skates.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

My 2cents. I believe it is similar to a marking gauge if you hang it off on edge and push down expecting the wheel or bade to crawl back up on top. If the iron is in a cut and the fence try's to pull it sideways it is enough torque to pull the fence out. It would not take much. A board a 64th out of parallel would ruin the cut and cause all kinds of grief if you keep pushing. My experience has been if the plane does not go along smoothly something is amiss. For me cutting beads is an easy push. You can take some deeper cuts when plowing and possibly get ragged edges but if you pull against a bead it will tear up the works. You can also make a big mess of things with improperly set skates.
Jim

I agree, you can unlock all of those achievements and more by misusing a combo, but none of those really constitute "racking". I'm probably insisting on excessively precise language here, though.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "a board 1/64th out of parallel though". Like any single-fenced plane the LV combo cuts parallel to a single edge. It shouldn't be possible to have an "out of parallel" situation, as there's only one reference. You can certainly make mistakes like that with the second fence on the 55 though...

[James Pallas]

In the situation stated by the OP he was fencing on one edge and the bead was 5 1/2" away on the opposite edge. In that case you would be going forward and either pushing in or out if the two edges were not parallel.
Jim

[Pat Barry]

In the situation stated by the OP he was fencing on one edge and the bead was 5 1/2" away on the opposite edge. In that case you would be going forward and either pushing in or out if the two edges were not parallel.
Jim
It's sometimes easy to forget what the thread was about, to begin with.

[Jim Koepke]

It's sometimes easy to forget what the thread was about, to begin with.

My confusion was the OP said he was trying to cut an edge bead.


I decided it needed a beaded corner instead of just rounded.

My inclination when making an edge bead is to have the cutter and fence as close together as is practical for the result desired.

If a workpiece is to get a bead and the grain is wrong for right hand planing then it may need to be set up to plane left handed.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "a board 1/64th out of parallel though".

If one is cutting along the edge of a piece on the opposite side from the fence, in some cases an out of parallel condition can cause binding or jumping. It is amplified by the rods applying leverage.

A little miss-cut will further aggravate the problem on each pass by binding or causing torsional forces taking the plane off of its course.

jtk

[steven c newman]

369277
Somewhat like this?
369278
And the cutters...
369279
I set the plane up that way, as it was easier to balance it on the side of the box.
Long rods, because the short ones were...too short.

[William Fretwell]

I am also trying to understand what the need for full (or any) extension is in the process of beading an edge. The question was asked by a couple of others. If I missed the clarification, I apologize. Could you elaborate on what exactly you are doing, and maybe there can be a better approach that will give you good results?
If you want the bead outer curve to blend into the line of the wood then the outside cutter protrudes beyond the wood. The wooden fence would have to be flush with the blade and would push it back in. The solution may be to cut a diagonal groove in the wooden fence to recess the blade edge. It would require two diagonal grooves in a cross pattern for right and left operation.

[Noah Magnuson]

If you want the bead outer curve to blend into the line of the wood then the outside cutter protrudes beyond the wood. The wooden fence would have to be flush with the blade and would push it back in. The solution may be to cut a diagonal groove in the wooden fence to recess the blade edge.

Ok. The way I set up is like the pics below, with the fence on the right when looking forward. This is how I did it without looking at the instructions and having not made beads with any combo plane ever. This allows you to easily run the fence to where the outer cutting edge is not engaged. Here are a couple of shots how I did it on a piece of rough-sawn sweetgum with a not-sharp blade from the 55. I have verified this is similar, but slightly different than the recommended configuration from page 5 of the instruction manual (Paper manual that came with it Fig 10). They remove the second skate for small beads and have everything on the opposite side, but it is doing the same thing just having the fence overlap the first cutting edge. I should read instructions more. Anyway, it worked well.

For what it's worth, I flipped it around like the instructions and just did a piece of oak without issue. You just plane the bead on the left side and use the depth stop of the main body.

369290
369291
369292

Correct config for 1/4" bead . In case you can't tell, the handle is on the table end and the plane is with the fence on the left when planing.
369294

[Derek Cohen]

If you want the bead outer curve to blend into the line of the wood then the outside cutter protrudes beyond the wood. The wooden fence would have to be flush with the blade and would push it back in. The solution may be to cut a diagonal groove in the wooden fence to recess the blade edge. It would require two diagonal grooves in a cross pattern for right and left operation.

Hi William

I was able to produce this bead (which I'm sure you have seen before) with the original set up ...

https://s19.postimg.org/7bic4ywf7/6a_zpsn5pzvvv6.jpg

I suspect that you have too much extention on your blade. The blade on the Combo Plane I have slides over the top of the wooden subfence when set for a fine shaving (whichI believe is the way to go when using a beading blade on this plane). No alterations to the subfence were necessary.

The beads below were made on the Small Plow. This has a wooden subfence I made, and it is slightly lower than that on the Combination Plane.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallPlowasaBeadingPlane_html_1eda653f.jpg

No picture on file of the Combo set up, but here is the Small Plow. I set the Combo up the same way. Note that this is without the second skate.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallPlowasaBeadingPlane_html_5d082d86.jpg

I do not see any problem with the removal of, say, 1mm from the upper edge of the wooden subfence on the Combo if that is needed to get you on track.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Noah Magnuson]

FWIW, I didn't see any need to modify the fence in either configuration. You can extend the blade quite a bit further than the thin shavings I was doing without hitting the fence, but wouldn't recommend it for a clean cut. I would guess my blade is about a half mm past the skate.

[Jim Koepke]

If the fence is hitting the skates or the blade, there is a problem with the fence. Possibly the wood was mounted upside down if the holes are not on the center axis of the wood piece.

In my experience a light cut to start seems to work best. If the wood is cooperating then advancing the blade can quicken the work.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

If the fence is hitting the skates or the blade, there is a problem with the fence. Possibly the wood was mounted upside down if the holes are not on the center axis of the wood piece.

The fence on the LV sits about 0.05" below the bottom of the skate. If the fence is hitting the blade then you're taking an impossibly deep cut as Derek alluded. Backing that off will probably fix more than just the fence collision.

[Patrick Chase]

If you want the bead outer curve to blend into the line of the wood then the outside cutter protrudes beyond the wood. The wooden fence would have to be flush with the blade and would push it back in. The solution may be to cut a diagonal groove in the wooden fence to recess the blade edge. It would require two diagonal grooves in a cross pattern for right and left operation.

OK, so this is a huge clue as to how you're going wrong. The top edge of the LV combo's fence sits about 0.05" below the bottom of the skate. The only way you could possibly see a collision between fence and cutter is if you're taking an outrageously deep cut. Why don't you try backing off the depth adjust a LOT and see if all of your problems go away?

To be very clear, the skates of a combo plane are supposed to extend almost (within a few thousandths) to the deepest part[s] of the cutter profile. Some folks like Jim have made reference in other threads to "advanced techniques" that use more extension than that in very specific cases, but you don't want to learn the tool by starting out that way. The skates are supposed to ride along the deepest part of the cut.

[Jim Koepke]

Some folks like Jim have made reference in other threads to "advanced techniques" that use more extension than that in very specific cases, but you don't want to learn the tool by starting out that way.

Even those "advanced techniques" mentioned in some of my other posts start with the blade making a light cut and is then slightly advanced on following passes.

Interesting how one unmentioned detail may have been behind so many responses.

The good of it is there are many tips and techniques mentioned by folks trying to troubleshoot the OP's difficulties.

The sad part of it is most searches for information on how to use a combination plane will not likely find this thread.

jtk

[James Pallas]

OK, so this is a huge clue as to how you're going wrong. The top edge of the LV combo's fence sits about 0.05" below the bottom of the skate. The only way you could possibly see a collision between fence and cutter is if you're taking an outrageously deep cut. Why don't you try backing off the depth adjust a LOT and see if all of your problems go away?

To be very clear, the skates of a combo plane are supposed to extend almost (within a few thousandths) to the deepest part[s] of the cutter profile. Some folks like Jim have made reference in other threads to "advanced techniques" that use more extension than that in very specific cases, but you don't want to learn the tool by starting out that way. The skates are supposed to ride along the deepest part of the cut.
Patrick you may have it here. The person that I sold my last 45 to called me saying that he could not get the plane to cut beads. It turned out that he was trying to set the iron so the top of the bead was even with the bottom of the skates because he thought the skates were like the frog on a regular plane. He had already cut rabbets with it so seeing the exposed skates had him baffled. Honest error.
Jim

[steven c newman]

IF you are out in the middle of a panel.....leave the fence off...clamp a thin batten along the path of the bead you want to plough. The let the plane tell IF you are leaning left or right, by the way the cutter acts.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick you may have it here. The person that I sold my last 45 to called me saying that he could not get the plane to cut beads. It turned out that he was trying to set the iron so the top of the bead was even with the bottom of the skates because he thought the skates were like the frog on a regular plane. He had already cut rabbets with it so seeing the exposed skates had him baffled. Honest error.
Jim

Yeah, as a (former) product designer I have a keen appreciation for how users behave when confronted with unintuitive devices, and I don't think that anybody would describe a combo plane as intuitive. As I alluded earlier somebody who's only used flat-soled bench planes may be at a particular disadvantage. A light went off in my head when I saw that post about fence collisions. I bet that's a really common user error mode with these planes.

In LV's defense, they do have a pretty good illustration of skate and fence placement for bead cutting on p. 5 of the instructions (and it does clearly show the fence under the near edge of the cutter).

[William Fretwell]

Lots of good information here! After some more time moving my fence around I see for right handed use my fence is crooked. The front end is level with the skate the back end is below. I have twice as much wood at one end to the other above the casting. There is a very small gap between the skate and the fence. Derek's idea of planing a bit off the fence is good. In my case mostly off the front. Easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible, certainly in any working way.

I will make a new fence for now.

Putting different beading cutters in, both edge supports engage, left or right. What I find interesting is the large retaining screw that holds the edge of the blade is a precise fit. I mean the screw head precisely bottoms out exactly as the screw end touches the blade edge. It does this for every blade width. Note to self: Never hone the blade edges! There is not even a spare 1/4 turn. As blade tolerances will vary this is a little worrying.

[Patrick Chase]

Lots of good information here! After some more time moving my fence around I see for right handed use my fence is crooked. The front end is level with the skate the back end is below. I have twice as much wood at one end to the other above the casting. There is a very small gap between the skate and the fence. Derek's idea of planing a bit off the fence is good. In my case mostly off the front. Easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible, certainly in any working way.

No, it is not "easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible". The wooden fence only extends <0.01" above the casting on that plane (I just went and measured mine), so even if there were "twice as much wood" at the front as you describe you would still have plenty of clearance for the iron.

Reasonable cutter extensions in planes like this are on the order of 1/100", and and less than that for good surface quality. Can you position the fence under the main skate and use shims to measure the actual clearance at the iron? If it's more than, say, 1/32" you're good to go, period (I just measured mine at 0.045"). The situation you describe would only "seem impossible" to somebody who has absolutely no sense of how the tool is supposed to work. Minimal fence clearance in a plane like this is a feature, not a design or manufacturing flaw.

If you get in over your head like this in the future then you might consider asking for help instead of providing "feedback" about "wracking".

[steven c newman]

Ease off a bit there, Bert.

It would seem the WOOD part of the fence was installed crooked....on end higher than the other? The low end CAN get under the skate, but the "high" end won't let it, as it hits the skate.

Since a "new" hole won't work to lower the high end.....just re-do the fence with a new block of wood. Maybe this time around, make sure there is clearance under the skate at BOTH ends.

On a Stanley #45, I simply install the rods through the upper holes instead of the lower ones on the fence. Used it the last time on a match cutter, to mill a tongue. Apparently, the Combo is a mere "Two-Holer". Stanley was a four....

[Patrick Chase]

Ease off a bit there, Bert.

It would seem the WOOD part of the fence was installed crooked....on end higher than the other? The low end CAN get under the skate, but the "high" end won't let it, as it hits the skate.

Nope, he said "there is a very small gap between the skate and the fence" such that it "SEEMS impossible" that the fence would clear (emphasis added). Nowhere did he say that the fence actually interferes with the skate. He just misjudged things.

[William Fretwell]

No, it is not "easy to see why having it under the cutter seems impossible". The wooden fence only extends <0.01" above the casting on that plane (I just went and measured mine), so even if there were "twice as much wood" at the front as you describe you would still have plenty of clearance for the iron.

Reasonable cutter extensions in planes like this are on the order of 1/100", and and less than that for good surface quality. Can you position the fence under the main skate and use shims to measure the actual clearance at the iron? If it's more than, say, 1/32" you're good to go, period (I just measured mine at 0.045"). The situation you describe would only "seem impossible" to somebody who has absolutely no sense of how the tool is supposed to work. Minimal fence clearance in a plane like this is a feature, not a design or manufacturing flaw.

If you get in over your head like this in the future then you might consider asking for help instead of providing "feedback" about "wracking".
Patrick the wracking has nothing to do with cutter clearance. Cutter depth certainly makes it more difficult, but even on a very light cut the knobs came loose. It is designed to reach across wood in that fashion for some cuts.

By your reckoning a 1/2" bead would require 50 cuts, and as you move down the wood this number increases. That does seem reasonable as just planing a piece of wood 1/2" would require more.

I do not see why the small clearance is a "feature" of this type of plane. The small clearance serves no purpose and in one case is detrimental. I refer to using the nickers, when they are exposed sliding the fence around will catch on the nickers and scratch two grooves across the top of the fence. This won't sharpen the nickers. If you don't believe me (which would not surprise me!) take a look at the Lee Valley Combination Plane glossy brochure, front page. Their model plane shows exactly those scars! Perhaps their fence is a little skewed at the front also!

Lowering the fence slightly is not detrimental and may help mitigate blunting the nickers.

I've never been "in over my head", not even when I routinely dived to 50 meters.

[James Pallas]

There's a lot of good info in this thread. What I would hope to see is that William comes back from his visit with Lee Valley to give us all a great session of "Lessons Learned" about his new combination plane. For myself I'm still contemplating how to get one for myself. I very much like my Stanley 45 and I use it. I know that the new Lee Valley has to be better from my past experiences with their products.
Jim

[Frederick Skelly]

There's a lot of good info in this thread. What I would hope to see is that William comes back from his visit with Lee Valley to give us all a great session of "Lessons Learned" about his new combination plane.

+1 ...

Fred

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick the wracking has nothing to do with cutter clearance. Cutter depth certainly makes it more difficult, but even on a very light cut the knobs came loose. It is designed to reach across wood in that fashion for some cuts.

Yep, and people who have experience with and knowledge of this sort of plane have found that it can reach across just fine. I've tried it and it works. There are plenty of ways to mess up with a combo though, and there's no shame in "discovering" those when you're new to the tool (I certainly did, over and over again). There is only shame in not recognizing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) when that's the case.



By your reckoning a 1/2" bead would require 50 cuts, and as you move down the wood this number increases. That does seem reasonable as just planing a piece of wood 1/2" would require more.

50 cuts for 1/2" sounds about right, keeping in mind that that's an aggressive cut that will tend to leave tearout and other surface issues. To put things in perspective, here's the mouth opening (http://redrosereproductions.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/015.jpg) of a wooden hollow plane, which performs a broadly similar function. I doubt very much that you could pass even a 0.01" shaving through that gap.



I do not see why the small clearance is a "feature" of this type of plane. The small clearance serves no purpose and in one case is detrimental.

The small clearance has no value in itself, but having the fence extend as high as it possibly can while still clearing the skates provides better support. In particular it makes it harder to rock the plane about the top inside corner of the fence, which is a perennial problem with ploughs and combos that you will undoubtedly hit at some point as you develop experience and skill with this plane.



I refer to using the nickers, when they are exposed sliding the fence around will catch on the nickers and scratch two grooves across the top of the fence. This won't sharpen the nickers.

The nickers shouldn't extend (much) deeper than the cut, so they clear for exactly the same reason that the iron itself clears. As a bonus, setting those properly prevents the folding problems that folks have been complaining about.



If you don't believe me (which would not surprise me!) take a look at the Lee Valley Combination Plane glossy brochure, front page. Their model plane shows exactly those scars! Perhaps their fence is a little skewed at the front also!

Link?

[Jim Koepke]

50 cuts for 1/2" sounds about right

Most of the time my planes are set for a much less aggressive cut.

Just for fun my video of cutting some molding has me using about 50 passes to cut some 1/4" beads with a #45. Many of these were not full length passes. For me that is about as aggressive as it gets. often the blade is set for a lighter cut. In the video you can see it is taking a bit of work as the blade gets deeper. At the beginning the shavings are thin strips from the tips of the quirk cutting edges. As it cuts deeper the shavings become wider. This is where an improper relief angle on the bevel can cause problems. A beading blade needs a relief angle all around the profile. If the relief angle isn't maintained during sharpening the blade will tend to bind in use.

One of the molding planes in "Old Molding Planes and the Rehab Enthusiast (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242156)" has such a relief angle problem that is discussed and corrected. The blade in this case was a more complex shape, but relief angle issues can plague any plane blade.

This article may explain it better:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/0...plane-cutters/

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

There is only shame in not recognizing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) when that's the case.

Err Patrick; in boxing, that would be deemed a low blow.

[steven c newman]

Ok...since the tray for the Maple Project was looking a might plain....decided to try to make a bead around the top edge...
369353
Set up the #45 with a #23 Bead Cutter.....would have to look up the size...but
369354
Fence was set up even with the "outside" quirk, which is also where the skate is.
369355
I started clear back there, and worked my way back towards me...
369356
No depth stop used, I let the shape of the bead tell me when it was done. I worked my way around all four sides..
369357
Only one corner had a blow-out, due to the pin breaking out. Had to keep clearing the cutter area..
369358
Almost like a Pasta Bowl? Finally got the edges all done..
369359
Maybe I'll sand things later?

Did not take all that long to set up and do...
BTW: The wood is Hard Maple.....

[Warren Mickley]

I use about 14 passes to cut a 1/2 inch bead and about 9 to cut a 1/4 inch bead.

[William Fretwell]

Link?
Have to correct myself it's on page 10. I have no link just a glossy brochure. The front page clearly shows the top of the fence is exactly in line with the casting, front and back. That is different to how mine is assembled.

[Patrick Chase]

I use about 14 passes to cut a 1/2 inch bead and about 9 to cut a 1/4 inch bead.

What sort of plane are you using that you can get good results with a 1/32" cut? I do that with cambered Jack and Fore planes, but not with a beading iron in a plough/combo.

For the record I don't doubt that you can do it. I know better than to question that :-)

[David Bassett]

Have to correct myself it's on page 10. I have no link just a glossy brochure. The front page clearly shows the top of the fence is exactly in line with the casting, front and back. That is different to how mine is assembled.

Is this the brochure? http://www.leevalley.com/us/html/CombinationPlane2017USpdf.pdf

[Warren Mickley]

A 1/4 inch bead is only 1/8 inch deep. The width of a bead is a diameter, the depth is the radius. I was using a 45 plane, which was designed for architectural work. We generally use high quality wood for mouldings.

[Patrick Chase]

A 1/4 inch bead is only 1/8 inch deep. The width of a bead is a diameter, the depth is the radius. I was using a 45 plane, which was designed for architectural work. We generally use high quality wood for mouldings.

Ugh, I hate it when I bungle simple math :-). Thanks for the correction!

For people following at home: Warren is describing an 0.018" cut. That's easily within the capacity of the 45 (or of the LV, which is patterned on the 45), though a bit adventurous for me :-).

[Patrick Chase]

Is this the brochure? http://www.leevalley.com/us/html/CombinationPlane2017USpdf.pdf

Thanks, I'd never seen that brochure.

Somebody did indeed overset the nicker of the example on p. 10 at some point and then try to run the fence under it. I wonder if that was one of their WIA samples? I'm surprised they missed that when they set up for the photo shoot though.

I just went and looked at my Stanley 55, which is an older type with sliding nickers like the LV, and sure enough some previous owner had done the same thing with it as well. I wonder if that was one of the things that motivated Stanley's switch to fixed-depth ("clover-leaf style") nickers. The Stanley has 0.06" of clearance between fence and main skate, so it has basically the same [non-]issues in this regard as the LV.

[Pat Barry]

Ugh, I hate it when I bungle simple math :-). Thanks for the correction!

For people following at home: Warren is describing an 0.018" cut. That's easily within the capacity of the 45 (or of the LV, which is patterned on the 45), though a bit adventurous for me :-).
What is the capacity of a LV combo plane? (for an experienced user that is) ;-)

[William Fretwell]

The LV has 0.0625" between the top of the fence casting and the skate bottom. This would be the same for the fence on the catalogue front page sample.

Thanks David for the link.

[Patrick Chase]

What is the capacity of a LV combo plane? (for an experienced user that is) ;-)

The LV has 0.045" from the top of the fence to the skate bottom, so that's the maximum practical iron extension. The wooden fence extends a tiny bit above the fence casting (even on the catalog cover picture - zoom in on it) so the distance from the fence casting top to skate is misleading/irrelevant.

The Stanley #55 is about 0.06" for comparison.

[Frederick Skelly]

Guys, I've lost track of the point of all this dialogue. Are we nitpicking and beating dead horses again? :D

I mean, did William figure out how to use his new Combo? I got the impression he has - with your help - and that LV is going to give him a personal tutorial.

My only (remaining) question is will William come back and post what he learns from that tutorial? :)

Have a good day!
Fred

[Jim Koepke]

Guys, I've lost track of the point of all this dialogue. Are we nitpicking and beating dead horses again? :D

I mean, did William figure out how to use his new Combo? I got the impression he has - with your help - and that LV is going to give him a personal tutorial.

My only (remaining) question is will William come back and post what he learns from that tutorial? :)

Have a good day!
Fred

+1 on what Fred said.

Hopefully William does continue this thread or starts another to tell us how things turn out with his personal tutorial.

It has been easy to lose track of things. For one, to me it still isn't clear whether the fence will slide under the skates or if the fence hits the skate. If it hits, that is a manufacturing problem.

This thread went a long way before it even got to the point of us knowing that was at the heart of the issue.

There are often commonalities in posts asking for help. These are often heightened by the poster's frustration over having a problem with a new, to them, tool that has everyone else drooling over it performance, convenience or special features.

On the other side it is difficult to render aid without knowing more about the situation. Pictures often help, but not everyone has access to a digital camera.

Then there is the basic problem of understanding one another. We have people from all over the world on this board. Yet one common joke about Canada, England, Australia, and the United States is the are four countries separated by a common language. Heck, often people from different parts of the U.S. can't understand each other. In the northeast if someone is having a hat attack you call a doctor, out west it means they bought a new topper.

Maybe English was the common language at the Tower of Babble.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Our intuitive era is a bit out of hand IMHO. Learning to use a combo is about like someone giving you all the ingredients to make an apple pie when the most difficult thing you have cooked is fried eggs. Sometimes that intuitive thing even sets you back. I remember climbing on a brand new backhoe after having run them for years and seeing the rabbit and turtle and thinking "what the h--- is that suppose to mean".
Jim

[steven c newman]

I gave the #45 a little workout, today.....thought I'd try a double bead...
369517
First, I made a single bead. Then moved things over a bit,,,,about a 1/4" or less, Wanted one quirk to ride in the right hand quirk of the first one..
369518
Also found out that I do indeed need to set the depth stop......
369519
Dado is from the Stanley #39-3/8" Dado plane. IF I wanted to add more beads, I would need to change to the long rods.
Instead of buying those fancy multi bead cutters....I can just move the cut over. Not that I am cheap....them multi bead cutters are $$$!

[Jim Koepke]

The two bead cutters are not too bad $$$ wise. It is the 3, 4 & 5 bead cutters that are harder to find.

During my buying frenzy days one of my ebay searches was for blades. Occasionally someone would list the specialty blades at low BIN prices, sometimes with shipping included.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

I have my date set at the store with their trainer. He has experienced wracking and loose knobs also on occasion. Sounds like my fence will get replaced along the way. We planned a very hands on experience with various woods. I will post results and some pictures of course.

[Sydney Smith]

Just received mine. I finally pulled the lever on it after struggling with my type 8 45 on a simple task. The 45 fence on my plane is difficult to set accurately and keep aligned. Not only that, stuff comes loose. There is a tremendous amount of friction when plowing a groove and a lot can go wrong. Paraffin wax or similar is essential. I am pleased so far with the Veritas, it's a lot easier so far to adjust and keep straight compared to my pre sweetheart 45.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for letting us know Sid!

[Jim Koepke]

Just received mine. I finally pulled the lever on it after struggling with my type 8 45 on a simple task. The 45 fence on my plane is difficult to set accurately and keep aligned. Not only that, stuff comes loose. There is a tremendous amount of friction when plowing a groove and a lot can go wrong. Paraffin wax or similar is essential. I am pleased so far with the Veritas, it's a lot easier so far to adjust and keep straight compared to my pre sweetheart 45.

One of my comments about the Stanley #45 is my routine of constantly checking the rod holding bolts. Another is how the skates and fence need to be checked for parallel before starting.

The modern day machining methods have likely eliminated some of those problems.

The fence holding bolts on my Record #778 are very likely to come loose as is the bolt holding the depth stop. At least the depth stops on the Stanley #45 of type 7 and later are not as likely to slip.

The Veritas Combination plane brings an 18th century idea into the 21st century.

jtk

[Christopher Charles]

Mine is in the mail...my discounted gift card from cyber Monday didn't survive the 2 day free shipping. Looking forward to putting it through the paces.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Although I have not used mine a whole lot yet, I am in love with it. I thought I would share a story. My neighbor collects Danish West Indian furniture and even authored a book on the subject. https://www.amazon.com/West-Indian-Antique-Furniture-Lesser-Antilles/dp/1851495371 His house, the Petit-Sturm house, is in my opinion one of the most beautiful historic homes in all the Caribbean, and it is fully furnished with period antiques. He stopped by to ask if I could make a duplicate leg for a fluted French table. I said I had just the tool for that, and showed him the Veritas Combination Plane. He was quite impressed and offered right away to commission me to make the table leg. I am redoing my shop, and have to build some doors and shutters for my house, but said I could do it after that. Anyway, I thought it funny that the plane itself sold him and not so much my ability to use it!

[lowell holmes]

How are you guys getting along with the combination plane? I love mine.

[Christopher Charles]

Yep, I love mine too, though have not done much beyond grooving and some test dados. Miles beyond the Record 043 I had before. And all the bling still makes me smile.

Malcolm, any progress on that table leg?