Ghosting on cabinet door?

[Chris McLeester]

There is a weird ghosting pattern on a cabinet door I have sprayed. It's not too visible in normal light, but is in direct light (see flash photo).

The plywood panel was filled with wood filler to deal with grain, sanded, and primed with oil-based paint. The topcoat is benjamin moore advance.

The finish looks and feels fine. There is no noticeable difference in texture in the ghosted area. Should I just keep adding paint? Sand?

Suggestions on how to fix it or what caused it?

[Chris McLeester]

Oh, and I should mention that the finish is being sprayed with HVLP. However, it's not a topcoat issue, as the same ghosting is consistently visible through the first two coats.

[Andy Giddings]

Chris, as BM Advance is WB and you've used an oil based primer I wonder whether its reacting? Is it the same on other doors you've painted?

[Chris McLeester]

It's on 2 of the 4 and only on the plywood panels, not the rails/stiles. I guess it's possible. The folks at the store said the two paints were compatible. They are generally pretty good on this stuff...but wouldn't be the first time!

[Adam Herman]

That is the plywood. I have some good ply, some not so good ply and some mdf panels in my kitchen cabinets not built by me. The not so good ply panels have this same look to them. I think the veneer is just a bit loose? or rippled. I sanded and filled a few times to minimize it. also, about 4 coats of paint on that panel. Then I hung the towel rack over it! I used proclassic and SW's mid tier WB primer. I also think that it showed more as it got "wet" with the first coat of primer and then light sand, and first coat of paint. I am not sure there is really anything you can do to make it go away completely without redoing that door/panel

[Chris McLeester]

Thanks, Adam. I suspected as much. This is a test run for a much larger install. I had already decided I needed to upgrade the panels. This makes that even more necessary. I'll try a sand and another coat or two. Then I'll admit defeat.

I love the towel rack hack! Out of sight, out of mind.

[Jim Becker]

Based on your photo and subsequent mention that it's only on the plywood, I suspect that the plywood, itself, is the issue and it's a physical thing, not finish-related.

[John TenEyck]

I agree. The problem is either with the plywood itself or your prep work. That's what the photo suggests to me. You should be able to see it after your first coat of primer if you look at it from an angle.

John

[Chris McLeester]

Thanks, Jim. As you and John suspected, it is the wood itself. Two more coats and still visible in exactly the same area.

Can you explain what it means that it's the wood itself? Shouldn't sanding even it out? Or if it's the way it absorbs the paint, shouldn't more cover it up?

Or is this kind of like how wood grain shows through sometimes, no matter what you do? How does that happen? I've decided to just live with it, but I'd love to prevent it in the future.


Based on your photo and subsequent mention that it's only on the plywood, I suspect that the plywood, itself, is the issue and it's a physical thing, not finish-related.

[Andy Giddings]

Thanks, Jim. As you and John suspected, it is the wood itself. Two more coats and still visible in exactly the same area.

Can you explain what it means that it's the wood itself? Shouldn't sanding even it out? Or if it's the way it absorbs the paint, shouldn't more cover it up?

Or is this kind of like how wood grain shows through sometimes, no matter what you do? How does that happen? I've decided to just live with it, but I'd love to prevent it in the future.
Chris, I think Adam's explanation of the top layer of veneer not bonding properly to the underlying core may be the cause - especially as sanding hasn't got rid of it. If you're seeing a lot of it, then you might need to use a different source or material (MDF core for example?). I've never had this issue with Baltic Birch as it is just about void free, more expensive than most ply but worth it IMO

[John TenEyck]

When I said it's in the wood itself I meant the plywood was not of uniform thickness to start with. You can see the low spots looking at your photo. That could only come from poor quality plywood or your prep. sanding. Either way, no amount of paint will make it go away. The only remedy would be to fill the low spots and sand it flat which is not as easy to do as one would think.

If you are going to paint these doors I would use MDF panels. MDF is dead flat, paints great, and is cheap. It really is a better choice for non structural painted indoor work.

John

[Steve Jenkins]

I agree with John. Unless you like the look of wood grain telegraphing through mdf is the way to go.if you could see the crappy veneers that are used for the core you'd know why the thickness isnt consistent .

[Justin Ludwig]

Sand. Bondo with a 4" knife. Sand. Prime and paint.

If that doesn't work, draw a bullseye on it and take it out back.

[Wayne Lomman]

Yes, unsatisfactory plywood. 100% agree with John and Steve. Mdf is ideal for this. Cheers

[Chris McLeester]

Yes, unsatisfactory plywood. 100% agree with John and Steve. Mdf is ideal for this. Cheers

Thanks, all. I'll be switching to MDF.

Two (slightly off topic questions).

1. Do you use 1/4 or 1/2 with a rabbet? I'm unable to find a source for 1/4 near me (hardwood supplier and lumber yard).
2. Are there any concerns about water damage and do you seal the "end grain" of the panel to prevent this?

[Adam Herman]

I think 1/4 is fine, unless you have a panel that is more than maybe 2 feet by 4 feet.

My doors were not sealed before assembly. Have not had any issues. They have been up for a year or so.

strange, everyone around here has 1/4 1/2 and 3/4 MDF in stock. One place even has different densities of each, plus 3/8, 4x10 and 4x12 panels.

[John TenEyck]

1/2" is heavier but easier to find and sounds better so that's what I use. I'm pretty sure you can order MDF in 3/8" thickness, too, and that would be what I'd do if I had to build a kitchen's worth of doors.

It depends upon the frame profile, but with a simple Shaker or similar style you can cut a 1/2" wide dado if using 7/8" or thicker frame stock. There are Blum hinges designed for doors up to 1" thick so it's not an issue mounting them. But if your edge profiles are deeper then you will have to rabbet the back of the 1/2" panels. In any case, I glue the panels into the frame which makes a very strong assembly and deals with the "end grain" at the same time. Never had any water problems. Two coats of primer, two coats of paint, pretty bullet proof.

John

[Jim Becker]

Home centers like Home Depot and Lowes typically have 1/4" MDF in 2'x4' panels...that's where I buy mine for jigs and panels.

[Bill Adamsen]

I use 1/2" and relieve the back. Frankly solid wood works great too ... or a cheap, flat, strong solution is MDO. The Amana 989 raised panel back cutter (or similar) makes fast work of relieving the back. Alternatively, you can set up an angled fence on a tablesaw blade. Objective is to avoid a sharp corner (like you'd get with a rabbet) which would invite splitting or delamination.