FWW Done it Now! Just read the grizz review.

[Dev Emch]

Well kiddies, guess what? Its a combo of being to darn busy and to darn lazy to renew my FWW subscription. So I just wait until safeway has it in the check out mag racks and I snag it when it time to scarf grocerys.

I just went through the 8 inch jointer review and my skin is itching something bad. Here are my issues with this review.

1). No grading scale was listed so we have no concrete grades to examine. The process of evaluation was extremely poor and is totally devoid of any true obejective, repeatable process. A number of examinination points were brought up but somehow, the author managed to wiggle the grizz machine into the lead spot.

He did mention the fact that the DJ-20 had an "anti-splintering" feature. This is how he referred to the parallogram system. A total of no more than 4 sentences. The major advangages were not even covered or hinted at.

2). He then listed the flatness and parallel numbers for each jointer. In his technique, he said that he had used a "high quality" 36 inch straight edge and feeler gage. Nothing more was said. I would like to know a few things. First of all, what was the straight edge he was using? Was it a hunk of hot rolled steel or a real straight edge from companies like Strarret or Brown & Sharpe. Second, how did he measure flatness? This is not just one measurement. And the number listed were "averages". Averages of what? No other methods or follow up data was listed.

Then he has the numbers listed by thousandths. Jointers like the Delta DJ-20 had 0.001 inch out of flat. And only one jointer had perfect tables.. you guessed it, the grizz with 0.000 in out of flat. ONLY ONE!

His measurement was based on trying to slip a one thou feeler gage under the straight edge. This is total rubish. First of all, if you pluck a hair off your head and measure it, it is about 3 thousandths thick. Go ahead and try it! That is 0.003 in thick. Or in the case of the sunhill jointer, the amount its tables were out of flat.

Most micrometers are setup to measure at best ONE THOUSANDTHS of an inch. I have a couple I ordered new from starrett that measure in 10ths of ONE thousadths of an inch. These do this by using a special 10ths vernier scale. ONE TENTH is 0.0001 inches thick. Most metal lathes could not hold this tolererance if their lives depended on it. Folks, this is aerospace territory!

But our author must be using some special tools he did not tell us about. In the case of table alignment, there are no less than FOUR jointers in which he was able to accurately measure the table alignment to 10ths. Not thousanths of an inch but 10ths of ONE thousandths of an inch. And all this with nothing more than a non descript straight edge and a bunch of feeler gages.

This is pure rubish. BUNK. Fairy Tales. Holloween Stories. Campfire Legends.

Can you measure a surface to this level of accuracy? Of course you can. The hard core machine builders to this all the time. But they are equipped to do it. They often use a device called an AUTO-COLLIMATOR. The early ones and some of the finest ones made are by companies like NIKON and LEIKA and LEITZ. They use prisims and other optic tricks to measure how a reflected beam of light is moved on its receipt to the instrument. The light bounces off special optic devices made for this purpose. Look in the back of the starrett catalog and check out those funky optic glass thingies. Things like "TRUE SQUARES" and "OPTICAL POLYGONS" and "OPTICAL FLATS". This is how you measure parallellism to 10ths of an inch.

And of course, the grizz came out with a totally perfect 10 out of 10 score. A guy who is measureing 4 of the 11 jointers to within 10ths must be able to measure the grizz to within 10ths as well. That would be 0.0000 inchs. Or could that be +/- 0.00005 inches. So that would be accuracy in which the variation is now on the order of 100ths of 1 thousandths of an inch.

So Mr. Duckworth, unless your nickname is warlock, there is no way you could have produced accurate test results and I can only conclude that you entered this competition with the intent of promoting the grizzley jointer. Your coverage of the other jointers was rather poor and your scientific method was basicly non existant. Had this been an engineering lab report, I would have docked you about 3 letter grades.

Better try next time..... I guess its a buyer beware market out there.

[Vaughn McMillan]

C'mon Dev, tell us how you really feel. :D

I know from experience that product comparisons can be done to favor whoever the tester wants, if they try hard enough. If the .0001 tolerances weren't an editing error, sounds like they must have been smoke and mirrors.

- Vaughn

[Martin Shupe]

This sounds similar to the scientific method in the varnish article a few months back. Every product was applied the same way, instead of according to their individual directions, then compared. Minwax wipe on poly came out on top. I used a Minwax poly once, and swore I would never use one again.

I still like FWW overall, but their product reviews are rapidly losing credibility.

[John Lucas]

Dev,
All very interesting, but I have one question: "Why do you pick such a slow checkout line at the Safeway." I can barely read the sexy magazines in that time.

More seriously, I dont remember an FWW "test review: that I have been able to trust and follow. I havent read my copy yet, but I bet I will just gloss over the review. These are the same people who developed "scientific tests" using a straight bit in a CNC machine and pushing it until it failed. Poor Jesada at the time. And poor readers who dont have a CNC machine. And their test of joint strengths... "two biscuits are stronger than one". Then why not 6?

Thanks for your review of the FWW review. I enjoyed it, until it got to taking a strand of my hair and...

[Dev Emch]

Martin, dito dito. My eyes glazed over when I saw the negative press for the tried and true products. How does one manage to screw up a traditional varnish oil which has a heavy hitting following including the likes C.H.Becksvort? For me, poly is akin to wraping a hard won piece in cellopane packing tape.

[Dev Emch]

One more point worth pointing out. My first reaction to the review was that the price ceiling was established to exclude the DJ-20. As it turns out, I was wrong. Way wrong. The DJ-20 can now be had for less than its listed here in the review.

So I have thought about this tonight or this morning and I can come to only one conclusion. The standard imports are all there. The grizz is there. Even two examples of the Delta line is present including the venerable DJ-20. The powermatic is also present. Sooooooo, who is missing? Who is the no show? Or should this last sentence read as follows... Who is the no show, EHHH?

Thats right, the Drumondville gang! That bunch up north who plaster maple leaves on their machines.... GENERAL of CANADA. But their domestic local costs well over $1400 dollars these days. So that is how you eliminate the other major competition.

Now I can understand why I dont refill my FWW subscription. Its like a cavity that you just cannt leave alone with your tounge. Overall, there is enough good reading to warrent the purchase but these product reviews are going to need a major redo with an injection of pure objectivity and scientific method.

[John Bailey]

Dave,

All good points, but your conclusion is as much conjecture as what you say FWW did with their conclusion. With everything you said, it still could be the Grizz was the best. I read these reviews as opinion only. No matter what the method of testing, one can find different results in another reveiw. I don't think FWW intentionally stacked the deck, that would not be in their interest. However, because they're human, their own opinions and prejudices can slant what they see. They have put their neck on the line knowing full well some will disagree. I can't fault them for that and I get lots of good information from the reviews. But, I keep them in perspective.

As for me, I'm building a shop and that's where all my money is going right now. I can't get my heart rate up for any of the new products, but my heart sank when I didn't have the cash to bid on a beautiful old Walker-Turner jointer on e-bay, or the 20" Northfield bandsaw, or the Walker-Turner 16" bandsaw, or the... Well, you get the idea. I read the magazine articles and enjoy them. I make up my own mind.

John

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for your review of the review process Dev. I have a scientific background (BSC), so am interested in comparative testing processes and I have seldom found a testing process in these magazines that was well enough explained for my liking. I know that the level of testing process detail that I would like to see would bore the majority of people, but it would improve creditability if a magazine were to make this information available on-line.

[Richard Wolf]

As it turns out, I was wrong. Way wrong.

Say it ain't so!! Dev admits he was wrong.
Actually, your response to the review reminds me of an old story about a fox and grapes!:D

Richard

[Ernie Hobbs]

I, too, have been more than disappointed by the wasted pages that FWW has devoted to product reviews lately. I can't recall one in the last year or so that was actually useful. However, on this particular issue, they more than made up for it with the Federal Card Table by Steve Latta. I am inspired to give it a try this winter.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Dev,

First, as a medical professional let me make a suggestion, cut back on the coffee or switch to decaf. Second, why is there always a conspiracy out there when the results are not as you would have chosen? As Freud once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I honestly think that the reviewer was not delusional and believed that folks would consider his findings in the spirit they are offered. Which was basically, "well, here they are folks, this is what I think." Lastly, Dev, wheather you want to fess up to it or not, you seem to have a serious bias related to this issue. That would seem to put you in the same regard you appear to have for the reviewer; lacking credibility. Unless you are going to run the same kind of comparisons how can you take such a strong stand in condeming them?

[Donnie Raines]

I have not seen the review. But, I for one really don't care about all of the details...I would not(likely) comprehend the means by which they were tested any how. I am a smart guy...but in this case the details don't bother me. Jointers are pretty simple machine...most easily adjustable if needed. All I care about is the fence being sqaure and the tables being true...thats it. If this is all in line the results will be very similar(if not the same). Why would I need a much more expensive jointer to accomplish this???..not sure. Thats up to the individual to decide.

Also, in my line of work, I have met many of people. To the tee, those that study things beyond need always over think the situation, thus making it more complicated then things often are. I have doctors and engineers walk through the door with all of the book smarts in the world...but not one drop of common sense. Are they stupid....not at all. Again, things are often over thought.

Now a finishing review is diffrent in my mind. Here you do have more things going on. Each company has their own brew(though often they are very similar) thus a more formal test is just.

Now...is the Delta DJ series a better made jointer then the Griz....most likely so(I hope so for the cost diffrence). But if they yeild the same results, is one better then the other????Hmmmmmmm:cool: :D

[JayStPeter]

Hmmmm, speaking of preconceived outcome ... I'd hate to see the article written by Dev. ;) :D

[Craig Zettle]

BTW, I was under the impression the DJ-20 is an imported machine. True?
Also, the video that accompanies the article is pretty good, kind of down home type of review. To the best of my knowledge, there were no USA machines in the survey.

The best part of the survey for me was the conclusion drawn regarding spiral cutterheads. (not worth the expense for the average woodworker on a budget). In the video he even made a comparison cut to show that the difference is negligable. Keeps me from thinking the world is passing me by if I don't get one.

[Mike Cutler]

Hmmmm, speaking of preconceived outcome ... I'd hate to see the article written by Dev. ;) :D


Actually, I'd really like to see a review by Dev. I believe it would at least be based on practical assumptions and validated with purely mathematical basis.

Aside from that folks. If I may interject a little testing methodology and standards usage.
First off. FWW does not even begin to have the budget to be able to test these jointers, nor probably, would anyone here on the board have the ability.
Our test and measurement facility, here at works has a ventilation system that cost over 400K, to maintain temperature and humidity within the standards specified by NIST. The mechanical room cost almost 1 million, this is the room that straight edges, auto collimators, verniers, and even the lowly feeler gauge are calibrated to traceable standards. Add another 500K for measurement standards, and an additional budget to send your standards out for certification, to a more expensive, better equiped lab, and you can quickly see that anything aside from testing these jointers in a similar equipped lab would always leave room for discussion.
Dev's assesment of the measured values is correct, even applying ISA( Instrument Society of America) protocol, you would not be able to arrive at these values, ergo I am giving the magazine the benefit of the doubt and calling them typo's. These are writers, not mathematicians;) . However Dev, there is a technique that would allow you to expand the capabilityy of the lowly feeler gauges to derive a smaller, more accurate, and more resolute value, but I doubt that it was used. It's time consuming and requires the use of a vernier.
Bottom line though. I don't think that the FWW was trying to promote one brand over the other. All of these machines are relatively inexpensive, even though they would be a mortgage payment for a lot of folks, they still are inexpensive, all things considered. If you are looking for Bridgeport accuracy out of woodworking machine, be prepared to spend a lot of $$$, and don't be dissatisfied when you don't get it. In Dev's case I believe that his time investment allows him to maximaze the quality of the machine by the aftermarket machining and mod's that he has outlined in his posts.
Testing methodologies by any magazine or vendor is always a little subjective to me because I know that they are probably not set up to test properly, but as my machinist friends say about woodworking machine tolerances." What difference does it make, the wood will be a different size tommorrow":rolleyes:

[Donnie Raines]

Mike....I think that the point of their testing method: to peform the test in the manner in which the majority of us would...should we decide to do it. We don't have the type of equipment you outlined...nor would I expect anyone to(this assumption is also made by magazines..I would think).

Paralysis from analysis........happens to many common things in my mind.

[Tom Jones III]

Hi Dev,

... Lastly, Dev, wheather you want to fess up to it or not, you seem to have a serious bias related to this issue. That would seem to put you in the same regard you appear to have for the reviewer; lacking credibility. Unless you are going to run the same kind of comparisons how can you take such a strong stand in condeming them?

From the review, referring to the Grizzly jointer, "... and had the best fit and finish ..."

Given my very limited experience with Grizzly, and given the extensive comments that I have read on message boards, this statement about fit and finish strains credulity. It would seem that the focus of the Grizzly company is to provide tools that perform at an acceptable level at a low price by sacrificing many of the fit and finish issues that provide little or no real benefit.

I would find the review more believeable if he had stated a formula that weights flatness, knife quality, fence, price etc. and then demonstrated that the grizzly scored the best on the given formula.


Caveats:
I have never used a Grizzly power tool, my only experience with them has been a hollow chisel mortising attachment for a DP. In fact, I've never used tools by Woodtek, Yorkcraft or Bridgewood, all of which were in the review.

[Donnie Raines]

From the review, referring to the Grizzly jointer, "... and had the best fit and finish ..."

Given my very limited experience with Grizzly, and given the extensive comments that I have read on message boards, this statement about fit and finish strains credulity. It would seem that the focus of the Grizzly company is to provide tools that perform at an acceptable level at a low price by sacrificing many of the fit and finish issues that provide little or no real benefit.

I would find the review more believeable if he had stated a formula that weights flatness, knife quality, fence, price etc. and then demonstrated that the grizzly scored the best on the given formula.


Caveats:
I have never used a Grizzly power tool, my only experience with them has been a hollow chisel mortising attachment for a DP. In fact, I've never used tools by Woodtek, Yorkcraft or Bridgewood, all of which were in the review.


I have been pleased with the fit and finish on all of my Griz tools I have owned.

[Keith Foster]

When I built the house my parents now live in, it was the first house I had ever built. Numerous times during the build process I had to remind myself that I wasn't building fine furniture and being a little off here and there was actually ok. House came out fine.

Well, folks - guess what. You're not building spaceships in your shops, you're working with wood. I will concede that it is very important to have quality tools that produce quality results, BUT - I could give a rats "you know what" that so and so's jointer is .001 better than mine. As long as it cuts a smooth GLUEABLE joint - I'm good. I would venture to say that human error will rear its ugly head long before a jointers "true" flatness ever comes into play. Have fun - I'm off to the shop. :cool:

[Tom Jones III]

I have been pleased with the fit and finish on all of my Griz tools I have owned.

Being pleased with the quality is not my point. I am likewise pleased with the quality of my Grizzly hollow chisel mortising attachment. Grizzly is not known as the high end of ww'ing tools. I'm pleased with the fit and finish of my Chevy and when the time comes I'm likely to buy another. But if I compared it to a Lexus, it would strain credulity if I claimed that the Chevy had superior fit and finish.

Powermatic has a long reputation for fit and finish, even if the high polish on their tables and smooth turning knobs do not improve the cut at all. Incidentally, PM charges a premium for the fit and finish. It may be true that the Grizzly jointer has better fit and finish than the PM jointer, but I would need far more information before I would believe it.

[Michael Gabbay]

I think one thing that the reviews only take into account is the machine that was delivered to them which may have been calibrated by the manufacturer specfically for the review. Kind of like having the head chef cook the meal for the food critic and not his/her assitant.

Also, reviews don't take into account how well machines hold up over time or the service or delivery received from the manufacturer. If the reviews really want to tell the whole story there should be metrics for return/repair rates.

Personally, I'd pay a premium for better long term quality, service and shipping.

Dev - stick to the celebrity rags and the fitness mags and your blood pressure will be lowered! :D

my 2 cents... :)

[Donnie Raines]

Being pleased with the quality is not my point. I am likewise pleased with the quality of my Grizzly hollow chisel mortising attachment. Grizzly is not known as the high end of ww'ing tools. I'm pleased with the fit and finish of my Chevy and when the time comes I'm likely to buy another. But if I compared it to a Lexus, it would strain credulity if I claimed that the Chevy had superior fit and finish.

Powermatic has a long reputation for fit and finish, even if the high polish on their tables and smooth turning knobs do not improve the cut at all. Incidentally, PM charges a premium for the fit and finish. It may be true that the Grizzly jointer has better fit and finish than the PM jointer, but I would need far more information before I would believe it.


Point taken.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike....I think that the point of their testing method: to peform the test in the manner in which the majority of us would...should we decide to do it. We don't have the type of equipment you outlined...nor would I expect anyone to(this assumption is also made by magazines..I would think).

Paralysis from analysis........happens to many common things in my mind.

Well stated Donnie, actually that was what I was attempting to point out in my post, but failed. Thank you for restating it.

[Donnie Raines]

Well stated Donnie, actually that was what I was attempting to point out in my post, but failed. Thank you for restating it.

Ahhh...on the same page....what a great thing....:cool:
For the record....to everyone that might read this. I am not supporting the review in the sense that it's outcome leans toward some tools that have owned. I tend to support it, based on Dev's critique, becuase it is performed in the manner that most of us would view a new tool....and that is...how good are the results of _____ this tool? What are negatives?...positives? Thats all...its not contest to see who is right here...we are all entitled to view on this and I apperciate all of them....it shows how we each think things out...and what important to us. While I prefer not to over think things...many like the details of how results were acheived. I was a little out of line saying that some lack common sense...that statement was misplaced.

Carry on....:rolleyes: :cool: :D

[JayStPeter]

I remember 5 or 6 years ago when DJ20 production moved to China there were a slew of people with quality control problems on their new DJ20s. Those were only around for a year or so, then went away.
Perhaps not coincidentally, there are far fewer people who get bum Grizzly jointers lately also. I've been thinking in the back of my mind that Delta and PM may have instituted some new processes in the factories that are benefiting other mfrs like Grizzly. Now that all the mfrs. are producing in the same factories, I don't find it at all surprising that Grizzly could produce a machine with equal or better fit and finish than the others. There's probably some nice new tooling in those Chineese factories as Grizzly moves their production there from Taiwan. They could be holding tighter tolerances than ever before.
I do think that the DJ20 is a better machine, and it $hould be. But, at least I have an open mind ... change happens.

As for the review, I don't think it's the best. But, fer cryin out loud .. give it a break on the measurement stuff. I'm sure he used a good quality straight edge. The only thing you can really read into it is one machine relative to the other. On one machine he couldn't fit a particular feeler gauge through and on the other he could, end of story. It's a reasonable common sense way to do the job and report the results he observed. Million dollar test rigs and environmental chambers are neither resonable or sensible for a test where a thou here or there is not real relevant anyway.

[scott spencer]

I'm not typically too impressed with any reviews on any item, from any magazine, although I do often enjoy them for entertainment and information. Even when they make some attempts to be scientific, they're usually dealing with a sampling of one or two from each company which stands very little chance of be representative of the whole. One Griz, one PM, one Delta, one GI, etc. Just because they get one that's flat or way off, doesn't mean all or even most will be the same way.

There's just too many variables and too little we know about how they got the info they did. So I take them all lightly...:)

[markus shaffer]

As Keith Foster pointed out,

None of us are engineering parts for NASA with jointers be they made by a company as derided as Grizzly or a company with the reputation as say Martin or Hoffman. I would imagine there is some Grizzly jointer out there that is .0001 thousandth of a micron flatter than some DJ-20 but who really cares. At the end of the day, if the machine is calibrated right and the user knows what he or she is doing, that .001 isn't going to matter in the least bit. Wood by it's nature is a very imprecise material but that's the beauty of it as well. I know that if a glue line is off by .0001 thousandth of an inch, a Bessey K-body will remedy that soon enough.

As for Dev's review of the review... I can say that in general I don't put much stock in any magazine reviews. I think it's best to look at the reputation of the company and actual user reviews from the real world. I wouldn't put it above any company, Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, General or even the likes of the abovementioned Martin or Hoffman, to hand select and tune the machine that would be used for a review. These companies are all in the business of making money in the end and while some of us here are "enlightened" enough to not take a FWW review at face value, the manufactureres know that there are plenty of people who will. Thus, it may be that Grizzly sent a spectacular machine to be reviewed that had been maticulously created specifically for the test. I'm sure none of us will ever know that.. But what can be said is that all of these machines are priced to a certain market. For what is being paid, I imagine they will all produce acceptable results for that market.

Dev's ending comment though is the key. Buyer beware. Do your own research and be skeptical of any reviews written by any magazines. However, take into account that occasionally there are exceptions that will always stand out from the crowd because they deserve the recognition having earned through real world experience. There is a reason why the DJ-20 has such a good reputation and I don't think any glowing review of a Grizzly jointer is going to change that.

Just my .00002 cents worth..


-Markus

[John Bailey]

On the contrary, I would love to see Dev write any article for FWW. That, folks, would be fun!!

John

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I do like a spirited exchange of ideas. Wish I were listening to the debate over a cold one at the local corner bar though.

[Steve Clardy]

On the contrary, I would love to see Dev write any article for FWW. That, folks, would be fun!!

John

Well as windy as Dev seems to be, there wouldn't be any room in the rest of the magazine for anything else.:rolleyes: :D

I usually don't read tool reviews in any magazine. If I'm looking for a new tool, big buck investment, I go to the source I'm interested in.

Now on jointer beds, I don't give a hoot if it's off one tenth of one millionth whatever. It's wood we are working with, not rocket ships.
I value my time with more important things than worrying about a woodworking machine being in perfect alignment.
Steve:)

[Tom Conger]

I buy FWW for the pictures and Playboy for the articles....

[Dev Emch]

The responses to my posts in this thread have all been excellent. Bravo Gang!

I think Mike Cutler's posts says it most as does the one by markus shaffer. The reason I was hard on the review is the Dr. Hiram Von Fibulator testimony. Where some so called expert uses a psudo science to convince the masses of a fact that is clearly false. Yup, this Dr. Fibultor is total fiction. But the point is clear.

Had the writer done this correctly (not process correct but fibulator correct) he would have began by establishing say 0.002 variation on the grizz. We all know there is no perfect score. By establishing one for the grizz, he sank his argument right from the get go by using perfect numbers. Then he needed to understand the limits of his instruments. Mike Cutler is correct. You have not lived until you buy NIST traceable hardware. Simple looking items pack MASSIVE price tags!

And tone down those values a bit! If a jointer is within 0.005 flat, your doing super good and within 0.010, your still have a pretty good winner on your hands. As mentioned, were cutting wood here. Not parts for some deep space probe to Pluto!

I think one of my fears is that folks will take these numbers to heart and believe them. They will use these numbers for comparisions. Life in woodworking machines is not that complex. Relax if your off by a few thou as it does not really matter!

What I find funny is this. The domestic generals have always been known for fit and finish. You general owners can attest to this. The grizz jointer design wise is a copy of generals older 8 inch jointer. Fancy That. So draw your own conclusions from here on excluding the original fit and finish machines.

But I dont care if they copy one design or another. The fact is, this corporate inbreeding has been going on for 50 to 70 years! The US woodworking industry was not only borrowing ideas from each other, they were borrowing employees as well. There was a time when entire family generations were employed where gramps worked for oliver and dad worked for moak (in the same city I may add) and jr was working for northfield or yates. The traditional machines are old designs so power to any company that copies these! Go for it I say!

I will admit that I have an issue here on bias. Remember that Delta had not one but two entries. Only one was the DJ-20. The DJ-15 and DJ-20 have an unusual design based on the parallalogram architecture. The only true competition here is from the german, austrian and itallian companies that make similar machines only much larger. So if we keep within the 8 inch group, the only true parallogram designs are those from Delta.

Also note that Delta has been making the planers and jointers in Tawian for many years and may be making these designs in China now. So much for the arguments that Dev hates the imports! Import or not, I support the parallogram design.

When it comes to looking at THE MOTHER OF ALL JOINTERS, there is but one entry in this rarified category. The Martin T-54. This is what happens when engineers are allowed to create the ultimate jointer with no real world constraints. But in the real world, you cannot drive the DuPont Gordon NASCAR entry to the super market. A similar set of real world constraints apply to jointers and the result is the DJ-20. It is a practical average of real world and dream world packaged into a workable machine. And in finding a compromise, we have been able to retain its parallogram features.

So I too would have to recuse myself from such a study as I would have a bias towards the DJ-20. But for whats its worth, its a bias that was based on objective study over the last 20 to 30 odd years. After all, I had to research and study and make up my own mind for myself. Being that my opinions are first for self consumption and only secondly for mass consumption, does that not have some level of objectivity? I am going to pick the best of the bunch for myself. What I will not do is cloud the issues with pusdo scientific mombo jumbo that others cannot support and objectivly repeat under NIST type standards.

The main reasons for supporting the DJ-20 are threefold and simple. 1). Parallogram Design. 2). Nice extra long infeed table. 3). Wonderful fit and finish and excellent machine work. In the end, its a jointer and not a rolex watch.

I do agree with the author about his description regarding the rebate ledge. Here! Here! But he did fail to mention the fact that should you be one of the few who use this ledge, make sure you do not install an insert cutter head. But he did test both on normal wood. Yup, the results were the same more or less. Heck, I could have told you that. I want to see the same test run on Hidious Pagen Grain. I mean the knarlist root burl you can find. Then, you will get another outcome on these heads!

[Dev Emch]

Yaaaa, what Tom Conger said! I want what he said.:)

[Andy Hoyt]

I read somewhere a while back that even though we currently have enough submarines in the navy we have to continue building more. Because the skills and experience needed to build these things are so unique and rare that if we stopped even for three or four years, those skills and experiences will have left for other work, and it would take thirty to forty years to rebuild that skill and experience base. And by that time we'd have totally lost the global edge.

In a like manner, there are only so many guys out there like Dev. And when it comes to the knowledge base he posesses - well it's just too valuable to lose. And by posting his stuff here, the knowledge base gets passed on forever. My guess is that every time he posts one of his wordy tomes it's costing him lots of time to collect his thoughts, assemble his facts, and type with two fingers. That's time he's chosen to give to us; and I for one am grateful.

I often don't have a clue what he's talking about, and I'm too crummy a mechanic to ever consider refurbishing a 150 year old beast, but the notion that it happens is refreshing.

I'm sure he'd admit that while he's often shooting for perfection and zero defects the goal is no where near that.

Thanks, Dev.

[Byron Trantham]

Well, I don't know guys but I have been reading several reviews on 8" jointers and there have been three (different magazine) since September and all three liked the Griz. Cost aside, I liked the Griz over the DJ-20 because of the bed length. After all, that's one of the main reasons to get the wider jointer.

[Mark Singer]

FWW is really careless in their reviews....The price of the MinWax poly was off by over 50 %! How can you believe anything they say. It is really ashame there are no publications that are more objective and careful with their reviews.....anyone that has used a DJ 20 knows it is the standard of the 8" jointers. Often they test a number of brands and leave out a major contender....why? I think if you advertise they may remember you....maybe...there is enough politics in politics....I don't need more in woodworking.

[Dev Emch]

Thank you Andy for your post. I have to say its most humbling.

Byron, I am confused about your post. You liked the grizz over the DJ-20 because of bed length and that is one reason to get a wider jointer. Most folks would like the longer bed that the DJ-20 offers to handle longer stock. There is nothing special about the bed length of the grizz. Its a standard size for that machine and coresponds to the standards used for 50 or so years. The DJ-20 is the one with the very long infeed bed which I think is great. The new general 8 in has a much longer infeed table as well.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

First off, lemme say I pay little attention to reviews...because for one reason or another, I think there's ALWAYS going to be some opinion involved that may 'taint' the results. BUT....what if the Grizzly really is the better machine nowadays? Does the tone of the original post reflect a preconceived notion that there's just no way the Grizzly could be best? :confused:

KC

[Dev Emch]

KC, not at all.

I say bring it on. Instead of having a shoot out on main street, we should have a joint out. Leave the Colt peace makers at home. Bring the jointer of choice and let us all agree on a process of evaluation. Lets say a matrix of 10 grading points with a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being a failure and 10 being God Given perfect. Lets have multiple judges as well like those chilli cook offs. Get some guys and gals from all over the demographic. Put together a booklet on how to be a judge. And then let the chips fall where they may.


But in all fairness, I dont know how to make it any clearer. I have already stated that the DJ-20 is a compromise machine and I can live with that. But doesn't superior design mean anything these days? I dont mean fit and finish here but intelligent gimmicks that improve the machine. The overhead valve V-8 was a superior design over the older flat head V-8 and the overhead cam, (i.e. no more push rods) V-8 seems to be better than the overhead valve V-8. The parallogram design is the newest and the more superior design in a series of designs that governed jointers for the last 100 years. The grizz and most of the other wedgebeds are quasi obsolete designs as is both my older design oliver 166 and my porter 300 which is also a wedge bed. I have been watching and studying the parallogram jointer for some time now and actually have an engineering drawing from the martin T-54. I have also taken time to inspect the DJ-20 lately and I feel that this design is the design of the future. Every euro jointer I know of is using it. So why is the latest super dooper offering by grizz and several others for that matter still holding tight onto a 60 or 70 year old design?

If grizz came out with a version of the DJ-20 with their own smell on it, my hat would be off to them. If they make a good, clean machine with no issues, I could even buy one.

[Monte Milanuk]

As mentioned, any of these reviews are only a snapshot, both of the reviewers personal tests and of the sample machines provided. So take them w/ a grain of salt, and glean what info you can (if any) from the article, and don't sweat it so much ;)

But while we're on the topic of nitpicking reviews in general, and Grizzly in particular... here's one thats bugged me for a while... Grizzly's G0555 14" bandsaw has had positive reviews from most people that I've read of actually using it. Most individual reviews (i.e. that one product only) have been extremely positive about it. Yet I don't think I've ever seen a bandsaw review w/ that saw stacked up against the Delta, Jet, etc. and other competitors. The magazines always have some oddball Grizzly model that I have to go look in the catalog to be sure it's even still carried, rather than their latest competitive model. Maybe the G0555 would get stomped, maybe it'd show favorably, but for some reason it never seems to end up in the same article...

YMMV,

Monte

[Mike Cutler]

Well, this has turned into a pretty good discussion, but if I may interject something here along the lines of expectations.
We can dispute the findings of FWW on an academic level, but the reality is, will the jointers(all) in their review perform as expected, and would the woodworker for which these jointers are market priced be able to replicate the results in a satisfactory manner, and get suitable finish results.
I believe that people are expecting too much performance from machines in the market bracket that these exist, these really are inexpensive machines, when compared to the entire market.
Trying to compare a 14" Griz', Jet, or Delta to a Minimax, Laguna, or Aggazzani, or even one of Dev's refurbed Walker's is a disservice. These machines were designed from the floor up to hold their individual tolerances over a wide variety of tasks and applications, and be able to perform in a time expedient manner. This doesn't mean that any of the Taiwanese imports cannot perform the same task, it just means that the setup time will be greater in between applications.
The same holds true for tablesaws, Jointers planers, shapers, etc... I have a Jet contractor table saw, for my needs it is fine, but for someone like Markus, or Paul Cresti, it would be woefully inadequate. They simply would be losing money on the setup time in between tasks, and repetetive applications. For folks that make their living off of their machines, "time is money". As an aside, my Jet will need to replaced due to the changes temperature effecting the flatness of the table. I don't want to have "summer" and "winter" tunings and setups, too much of a pain in the keester.
I guess my point is this. Have realistic expectations about the capabilities of the machines that you purchase or own, and don't try to compare a 1k to 3K machine to a 15K machine, it just won't work out. Personally, I would rather spend my money at this time on the raw materials, and not the machines, or the latest gizmo/jig.
Enough meandering from me for now.:rolleyes:

[Doug Jones]

As Freud once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
Or as Clinton says, "sometimes it isn't".

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The reviews can be of a relative value to some of us. If you are like me in an isolated area with few if any dealers within several hundred miles that have any of the major tools in stock on the floor, these reviews serve a purpose. It's 260 miles to Boise, 300+ miles to Seattle, 300+ miles to Portland and 120 miles to Spokane. I'm not sure if any dealers in Spokane have floor models set up for checking fit and finish. I always take these reviews with a grain of salt but last year FWW compared 18" b/s and I was surprised by the outcome and recommendations. After reading several reviews here by new owners, the Rikon 18" is certainly on my short list.

Secondly, I don't have the money or time to bring in 5 different models by different manufacturers to compare them side by side.

Thirdly, visiting 3-5 different stores to see each one at a dealer would definitely result in my forgetting what I saw at the other store even if I took notes I'd find something at the current store I'd overlooked at the previous.

Fourth, the distance and travel time to see these first hand most likely would require overnight travel, motel rooms and meals that would push any savings out the window. I will rely on the SMC membership reiviews more than any magazine reviews.

As I prepare for some kind of retirement, I want to stock my shop with the best tools I can afford keeping in mind, that if I spend too much for tools, I won't be able to afford to retire and use said tools.

As stated by others, wood is an unstable medium and my projects won't go to NASA for any reason.

FWW reviews do serve a purpose but it's relative not specific. If they use the same measuring techniques from machine to machine......We don't know if the manufacturer's "high-balled" them.

While I can't afford or justify the "high end" European machines, I want the best quality I can afford and after spending nearly 40 years of servicing everything from radars to MR scanners to my own automobiles, I don't want to spend a lot of time rebuilding "old iron" as Dev and Lou so love.

Lastly.............It's always "buyer beware!".............

[Guy Baxter]

Thanks Dev!
I’m sure a large portion of FWW’s subscribers are hobbyist woodworkers with a technical degree in some other field. Short on time, limited experience, and looking to get the most for my money, I go straight to the facts; usually a table full of specs. Without questioning the measured specs as you did, I see a clear winner which matches the authors conclusion. Many of my woodworking tools were bought based on numbers that I later learned truly mean next to nothing.
GB

[Scott Parks]

It's 260 miles to Boise, 300+ miles to Seattle, 300+ miles to Portland and 120 miles to Spokane. I'm not sure if any dealers in Spokane have floor models set up for checking fit and finish.


Ken,
I'm sure you're familiar with Spokane Power Tool? On Trent, east of the river. They have a lot of machines set on the floor. When I was shopping for a table saw, I went there to look. They had the General, Delta, Powermatic, Jet, and Shop Fox. Even CDA Power tool has a few models to look at, though not as much as the Spokane store....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Scott....I wasn't aware of Spokane Power and Tools..... I'll check them out soon! Thanks!

[Per Swenson]

Hello all,

For 25 years we have subscribed or purchased, Fine Woodworking,

Fine Home Building and Wooden Boat.

From 1980 to the mid 90s these periodicals in my opinion were

the cutting edge in their respective fields.

I no longer hold them in such high regard as they (in my opinion)

have succumbed to marketing to the mainstream.

This trend may be good for Taunton press's bottom line

but it jades my perspective on these once truly fine magazines.

There was a time when the difference between say, Fine Woodworking

and any other magazine on the subject was the same as the difference

between Popular Science and Scientific American. No Longer.

It is to bad we all suffer in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

Per.

[David Pettibone]

any where around $1,000 is a lot to spend on a stationary jointer, planer, etc... I realize there are tools that cost much, much more for many reasons, not just that they have more mass (IRON BABY!!!!!).

I am middle class and I work for what I have, as do most people that I know. Personally, if I spent $1,000 or more on a jointer, and I may be all wet thinking this way, but I do expect the tool to do what it's designed to do without to much hassle setting it up. If it was a hassle to the point of taking to much time to set up, I would be returning it. The horsepower will surely be different than that of a Felder, Minimax, etc... but it should still work properly and within certain acceptable tolerances for what it is designed to do.

I have a 6 inch Delta portable jointer(7 years) that does what I need it to do for now. I don't expect amazing results from a $200 tool, but it does work and I've never had a problem from anything I've built. I am not building fine furniture to sell or I probably would have something bigger. My neighbor borrowed it last year and built a huge entertainment center with 1 inch strips of wood that he glued together. Not the whole thing, but most of it. He used my little Delta and edge jointed all of the strips of wood and then glued them together. He said it worked great.

Sure I'd love to have an 8 inch Delta jointer, but it ain't happening for awhile, and when it does I except it to work properly after everything is set up correctly. If I had to constantly fiddle with a tool that I had spent about $1000-$1,500 on, it would not be in my shop for long. Again, I may be all wet on this one because I don't own one to know one way or the other.

I am not attacking anyone's opinion on this, but a tool costing that much should work properly after it's set-up properly. I paid $1,356.80 for my Unisaw in May of 2001. I plan on dying with it or giving it to my son (10 years old) when he gets his own house in the distant future. If I had to constantly fiddle with it, it would be hello Delta, I have a return for you. That's just my personal take on this and I am sure many will disagree which is what makes the world go round! Take care.

David

p.s. I don't have Dev's skills or ability to get that kind of machinery, but I sure ENJOY reading about it. It is highly interesting to say the least. Thanks Dev!:)

[Keith Christopher]

While there is validity in all the points here, what I see from this type of situation is. The "non-dev's" of the world. The people who are thinking they need a jointer and go strictly from a review. And while there may be more precise ways to measure and gauge things, I agree most with the point, that a .001 out is probably not going to make that much of a difference. I mostly look to these reviews to put me in the ball park if I'm deciding on product. But by and large, it is places like SMC and the user base where the rubber meets the road. Asking and discussing here is MUCH more enlightening to me than a review can ever be. You learn about, this sticking or this wearing out too soon or maybe an over all "WOO HOO" for a product. A product in real WW'ers hands, doing REAL work and doing it well. Nothing is perfect but Dev, keep us all shooting for square.


Keith

[Dan Racette]

Hey Dev,

Just wanted to say that I really appreciate reading your opinion. I think you raise valid points when you write. So thanks for making me think. That's why I come here. As far as whether or not you are "right" or "wrong", I really don't think that is of any concern. I am kind of hoping that this type of dialog keeps up. I know these tools are expensive, but I truly believe that this forum in particular is getting the attention of more and more product managers, and ultimately, that's probably a good thing, since we are all really potential customers! If they "listen" then they might get more "customers". As far as my "opinion" I think that Per summed it up well. Capitalism gets the best of the best sooner or later. I think Taunton overall still has great value though. I think they need to hear us complain that they are "slipping".

dan

[Dev Emch]

In regard to Per's post, HERE HERE! Bottoms Up on a cold one. I agree!

As for David Pettibone's post. I agree with everything you have said here.

I have worked with big stuff and little stuff and cheap stuff and expensive stuff. Lots of pros and cons. But at the end of the day, what really does matter?

The jointer is about accuracy. It does not make fancy edges or mouldings. It does not mill out rail and stile moulding and cope cuts. Heck, I cannt rip or cross cut lumber on it. So what good is it? The jointer is about accuracy.

But wood is wood. A product of nature. The variations in wood would drive a typical machinist to the funny fun! Breath on it and it changes dimensions by a few thousandths of an inch! Its never the same size during the summer and the winter. It is truely dynamic.

So lets the burry the marketeer's rubish about accuracy right now. They got a new little fancy word from the machine builders and have embellished it into the current notions.

Lets examine the notion of "MARGINAL UTILITY". Given a jointer job, how much jointer is needed to perform that job? Of all the joining you guys have done, what percentage is edge jointing and what percentage is face jointing? When it comes to edge jointing, how often do you edge joint an entire board in one pass? How often do you cut rails and stiles into rough blanks and then edge joint them? This makes a difference as it controls the length of you infeed table. More often than not, its easier to edge joint rough blanks than whole sticks of lumber. How often do you guys face joint lumber for the planer? Do you like to face joint 12 in or 14 in or 18 in boards? Or is it more like 6 in and 8 in boards? Lumber these days in excess of 8 inches for hardwood is getting harder to come by. Yahhh, its out there but its not enough of an issue to justify going to say a 12 inch jointer. The guys with wide jointers, me included with my 20 in porter, actually use the extra width to skew cut more than to face joint super wide boards.

So when your done with the above soul searching, you will find that 90 percent of your jointing jobs can be done on either a 6 or 8 inch jointer with a normal infeed table. Most can be done using what I call a STICK JOINTER. Right now, I am very slowly working on the restoration of a wallace 6 inch direct drive, single phase repulsion motor jointer. The orig. one I saw was built in 1914 and I think mine is from the 1920s. This machine will do the bulk of my blank edge jointing, hence the name STICK JOINTER. Being single phase, I dont need to turn on and off the phase converter and walk over to the big boy every time I need to edge joint a stick 3/4 inch thick and say 2 to 4 feet in length. Just flick the switch, joint the edge and flick the switch. It will sit on the built in bench behind my main workbench. That way, I just need to turn around to joint the edge.

So a 6 inch super cheap jointer by Ryobi or Delta will serve most woodworker's quite well. As your skills, AND EGO I might add, evolve, you will wish to get more Tim Allen Certified jointers. More Power, More Capacity, More Size, More Features. UHH UHHH UHHH! I will be the first to add that ego plays a big role in buying machines for myself. Dont hide ego. It will re-emerge and cause you only issues. Just learn to identify it and manage it and realize its part your inner being.

But for you company guys, listen up. If your selling a cheap jointer, market it to the folks who can utilize it. Provide a useful package of features for the price and identify it as such. Dont try to market an entry level jointer as something that its not. The consumer public is smarter than that.

And for you Newbies to the woodworking world, just relax. Woodworking is not machine work. Skilled as some of it may be, its not as accurate as many have led you to believe. Relax, get your fingers on some wood and some basic tools and have fun. Tune out some of these companies selling you jointers with 0.00000000000 inch flat tables as not much of that mumbo jumbo will be of help. Just relax and have fun.

[Noel Hegan]

Dev, you talk a whole lot of sense. Something we all need now and again.

Noel

[lou sansone]

hey dev
when that article first came out I posted a little blurb here at the Creek that said .... well guys this should really get some blood flowing

looks like it finally did.. :)

I wish the old guys were really contenders ( still in production ) and FWW had to do a review on :

a porter 300, newman 60 and an oliver 12.. ;) ;) oh yea throw a F & E in for good measure

I wonder what the results would be

lou

[Shiraz Balolia]

Once in a while I browse through SMC to see if there are any interesting posts and have seen several of Dev Emch’s postings on Grizzly. It appears that in the six months he has been a member of SMC, he has managed to post more negative comments about Grizzly than anyone else. However, this particular post requires a response even though I am extremely busy.

When someone first told me that FWW magazine had picked our 8" jointer over all others in their test (December 2005 issue), my first reaction was "You’re kidding, right?". Not because our jointer was not capable of "winning", but rather because of the history that we have had with FWW magazine. You see, we stopped advertising with them about six or seven years ago because we were tired of the constant bias they showed against our equipment. If it didn’t say "Delta" on the label, it wasn’t good enough. This stemmed from the fact that Delta products, for a long time, had been made in the US. Plus, the fact that most of the editors at FWW probably grew up with Delta, using their machines in school (shop class) and then possibly at work. The older Delta stuff was, indeed, very good.

The other issue we had years ago with FWW was that they would test a particular machine without regard to cost. In other words, a test of 10" table saws would probably include saws costing $500.00 up to $2,000.00. Well, logic would dictate that the $2,000.00 saw would prevail as the "winner" whilst the $500.00 saw would fall to the lower end of the test scale. In any case, our relationship got so bad with that magazine that we outright told them not to test any of our machines.

That brings us to the next point. The comments and insinuations that we sent them a "wringer" are ludicrous! We did not even know they were conducting a test on jointers. They must have purchased one on the sly from us. As I mentioned previously, our relationship with them has not exactly been amorous. Another thing to point out is that, even if we had known they were conducting a test and even if we wanted to send a "wringer", the beds on that jointer are 75" long and they require special jigs, fixtures and a huge surface grinder to grind the tables together. A next to impossible task to get a machine that flat, after the fact.

Speaking of surface grinders and slightly off topic, I have seen comments like "Grizzly has this huge surface grinder to grind tables so they must have a lot of warped tables". This glass-half-empty thinking is a myth! Truth be told, we haven’t ground a single table in over 10 years. It just sits there like the Maytag repairman. Actually, if once in a while, a table top needs replacing, it would come from our parts department as a replacement. The old top is almost always discarded either by the customer or by us – either way, the frequency of defective table tops is next to nil.

Going back to the 8" jointer table flatness and general fit and finish. I do not know what kind of a straight edge the writer at FWW used. I do know that it is common to test table flatness of woodworking machines using a quality straight edge and then using feeler gauges to determine the deviation in flatness. I know that we sent Starrett straight edges to our engineers in Taiwan to take with them to the factories. In the case of table saws, we test those tops two ways – once with a dial indicator on a jig that rotates around from the center of the table and then again with the Starrett straight edges. If a top does not meet the tolerance, it is sprayed with a bright orange paint and rejected. This final flatness test is actually done after the machine has been assembled. The factory hates this process, but it makes it so that those tops cannot be cycled into assembly again.

Many of the people that view Grizzly products in a negative light, relate it to some experience they had many years ago. A brief explanation is in order here. First of all, we are a relatively young company – only 23 years in business. Businesses evolve and as such, our processes were continuously being refined. Then about 7 years ago we made the decision to open a branch office in Taiwan and hire engineers on our payroll to do our quality control, in order to bring up the overall quality of our machines.

We hired real engineers with engineering degrees, as well as practical inspection experience (we have 9 of them in Taiwan and 4 in China where we also have an office). One of these engineers was actually a supervisor of a CNC machining center facility and was, and still is, anal about quality control. It was like going from one extreme to the other. The factories hated our inspectors at first because it meant a huge change in procedures, rejection rate, etc…. All of which would cost the factories more to produce our equipment. Simultaneously to this we upgraded our motors to the best motor factory in Taiwan and paid an additional 15% to 25% for each motor. We also paid extra to get all sheet metal parts, stands, etc… powder coated – a process that puts a more chip resistant finish on the painted surfaces. If we were going to produce quality equipment, we needed to go all the way.

While some people had comments about past experiences with Grizzly, others jump in and make negative comments about "I have heard…", without ever having used a Grizzly machine. This then gets repeated with a little salt and pepper added and before you know it – it’s a Grizzly bashing party. I also take exception to a comment made by Tom Jones III that Grizzly is "not known for high end woodworking tools". Not known to whom? Why is it that we sell more wide belt sanders and other large machines to the industry than just about any other company selling similar products? Almost all guitar building companies in the USA use Grizzly equipment – Gibson, Fender, Taylor, Larrivee, Suhr. In fact, Suhr Guitars has over $50K worth of our equipment that is used daily for production of high end guitars. John Suhr’s guitars retail from $2,500.00 to $6,000.00 each. And, contrary to what is required of most woodworking, guitar builders work in thousandths of an inch. I know, I build guitars as a hobby (you can see my work at the Grizzly web site www.grizzly.com (http://www.grizzly.com) The Fender custom shop uses our 16" jointer ($5K) with the spiral cutterhead to flatten highly figured woods. This is only one of numerous machines they have. I could go on and on!

My background stems from metalworking. I have a complete machine shop at home and one here at work (for my use only), where I also have CNC machines. I always tease my wife that I have a mistress. Her name is "Millie" (my milling machine). I have two Bridgeport type mills in my shop at home. I started off in the tool business by rebuilding metal lathes. I know what it takes to achieve .0001" accuracy (one ten thousandths of an inch) and what instruments are required to measure such tolerances. I routinely use such measurements in some of my other hobby work. It would, indeed, be impractical for the average magazine writer to measure in one ten thousandths. All the tolerances we specify for our machines are in thousandths of an inch and the FWW article also used .001" increments.

While magazine tests may not be the most complete and as elaborate as some would like, they do serve a purpose. They give the readers a flavor for what’s out there and a side by side comparison of numerous brands. I can tell you that even when we have disagreed with writers in the past, we have always learned something from them. Why did such and such machine get top honors? What features did the writer like, dislike? If we thought a certain feature was worth adding, we would then change our machines accordingly. This is good for the buying public.

In closing, I am not at all surprised that our 8" jointer won "Best Overall". After all, the company that makes that jointer for us also makes the SawStop and Powermatic machines. Plus, the owner is a personal friend of mine, so we get more tender, loving care during production. I am also proud that we have come a long way in quality and can go head to head with just about anyone. Our prices are lower because, unlike other brand names, we sell direct to the user. We sell more 8" Jointers than any other company in the world. Period! Further, I am personally against tests where lesser priced machines are tested against money no object machines. If that is the case, we should be allowed to enter one of our industrial $5K plus machines in, say, an "unlimited jointer test". This is really not practical for the average person who has budget and space limitations.

Dev – if you are not wearing a hat, you might want to start now as you WILL be taking it off to us (read your own post).

Shiraz Balolia
President
Grizzly Industrial, Inc.

[Rob Blaustein]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Mr. B. I am in the market for an 8" jointer and was considering the G0500 but I heard that it was being discontinued and now can't find it on your website's list of jointers. I know you make the newer G0586 which people appear to be happy with--is that its replacement? I thought I'd read that the G0586 is made in China and not in Taiwan (i.e. not at your friend's company that makes SawStop and Powermatic--the one that provides "more tender, loving care during production"). If that is true, can we expect the same level of quality with the G0586?

On a different note, I'd echo the comment made by Monte Milanuk in an earlier post--it's hard to know what to make of reviews that list all those measurements. They are of a single machine from each company--a snapshot, as Monte said, and as such there is not much statistical significance to it. I'm sure if you looked at 100 machines from any one company you would find a distribution of flatnesses, runouts, etc--presumably all were below the company's tolerance or else they wouldn't have shipped it, as Shiraz points out, but who knows what can happen during shipping. So to say that the one jointer you saw from company A had a flatter bed than one from company B probably means little, since if you checked another few machines you might get a different result. But of course it's impractical for a magazine to make measurements of 10 of the same jointers from each company and compare those to 10 from each of several other companies. So what's more helpful to me is general fit, feel, features and the like--that's what I find useful from these reviews.

[Andrew Ault]

Shiraz,

Thanks for visiting and sharing your thoughts. Your post was very interesting and informative. I hope that you will visit and share your views regularly. I realize that participating in an on-line forum is problematic, but if you monitor Sawmill Creek enough, you will see that some manufacturers and distributors strike a good balance here. A little participation can make a big difference in perception.

I really appreciate the quality of Grizzly products, especially for the price. I have one of your bandsaws and I like it. It works well and I do appreciate the fit and finish. I'm putting money aside for one of your machines right now. The newer machines I've examined are impressive. Thanks for caring about quality and continually improving your products. Over time my perception of Grizzly has changed from "good on a tight budget" to "good and a good price".

I've taken a tour of the Taylor Guitar plant and I was impressed by the hard use they get out of green machines. If they can work well in that environment, then I'm pretty sure they will work Ok in my garage. :)

I've found the Creek to be pretty good overall with a general culture of tollerance and a common desire to learn and share. There will always be strong opinions and in time one learns to read postings in context.

To the extent that it is possible, I'd like to hear more about the process of designing and making your machines. I'd be curious, for example about castings, stabilization and machining. I'd also love to hear about your experience building guitars.

Now just a little bug in your ear... There was a recent post about a competitor's jointer/planer being marketed in Europe at a good price. I would really, really like a 12" jointer/planer that I could afford.

Again, thanks for taking the time to post. I hope you come by on a regular basis... Love to hear about your home workshop and projects.

Andy Ault
Woodworker
Grizzly Customer

[Vaughn McMillan]

Shiraz, welcome to the Creek, and thanks for the post. My only experience with Grizzly tools has been what I've read here. Because of this lack of experience, my perception of Grizzly has been fairly neutral (although I've always drooled over the Luthier's Catalog). That said, my opinion of the company and its products just came up quite a few notches as the result of your post. I respect and admire the fact that you chimed in here with facts, and no marketing spin. (I know some marketing folks who'd be having a heart attack over a post like yours, because you didn't "PR" it up.)

Thanks again -

- Vaughn

[JayStPeter]

Shiraz,
Thanks for straightening out the (mis)information.

I'll second Andrews request for a 12" euro style jointer/planer at a Grizzly price :D. If possible, I'd prefer tables a little longer than the currently available crop (Rojek/Robeland/MM). Maybe somewhere around the length of my G1018 + a little (then I'd have the perfect spot for it).

Jay

[Andy Hoyt]

Shiraz - I have always admired someone who answers their own phone. And you just did, thanks.

Since you say that you've been lurking here at the Creek for a while, you already know that what we want is value. Not the lowest price, not the fastest spinning blade, not the heaviest chunk of iron. Just ones that provide value by reinforcing our purchasing decision every time we throw the switch.

Your challenge is to do whatever it takes to provide that value. Last winter I bought one of your milling machines (G1005Z) and this represents my only experience with your product line. While the machine is great and far more than I anticipated, I will say that the manual was worthless. If you want to show value, hire some better writers that speak english on a daily basis and make darned sure they have lots of experience assembling the machine they're about to discuss.

Okay, rant over. What we want in addition to that value is to know why. Why does Delta do this? Why did Jet do that? Where'd that Grizzly jointer go? And so on. Knowing why helps to rationalize out the best purchase for each of us.

We also want to touch and feel our machines before we purchase them. While you're at a disadvantage here with just your two or three stores, you do have an opportunity to provide those of us too far away from them with more than just pictures in a twenty-two pound catalog. Use your website for more than just schlepping your tools. Use it to educate us. Give us factory tours; give us specs til they drown us; give the history of the tools and their individual development. Put a face on the Griz.

Explain and expound on the benefit (to you and me) of offshore manufacturing. Right now I'm not so sure that's such a great thing, but I am willing to listen and learn.

By doing so, you will grow. By doing so, so will we.

[Richard Wolf]

Thanks for the post, Shiraz.

Richard

[Howie French]

Shiraz,

I am glad you took the time to respond.

thanks, Howie

[Steve Wargo]

An excellent post Shiraz... very informative, and thanks for sharing it.

[Marc Langille]

Scott....I wasn't aware of Spokane Power and Tools..... I'll check them out soon! Thanks!

Hi Ken,

They've actually got 2 online sites for the same brick and mortar business.

You can go to http://northwestpowertools.com (http://northwestpowertools.com/)/ or http://www.spokanepowertool.com/

Best deal anywhere in the US for Husqvarna chainsaws when I bought my Rancher 55 with the 20" bar.

Dev: thank you so much for explaining the design differences. I was actually looking at the DJ-20 (but X5 is a little $$ extra) - it sure looks like a nice feature - the longer infeed table. Now you're making me seriously consider that unit - and the shipping is free at a few sites...:)

Thanks!
Marc

[John Bailey]

Shiraz,

Thanks for the post. I believe this site is much different than most, or all, others. Your posts will be treated with respect here. When there has been any bashing of any products on this site, many insightful members are there to put a stop to it. So, stop in often, and remember, can't gloat about anything unless you back it up with pictures.

I do have one major gripe. I love green and Grizzly green is a particular favourite. Can't you lose the white you've been putting on the machines lately.;)

Thanks again, and we'd love pictures of your shop.

John

[Chris Barton]

So Dev,

What was it you were saying?

[Bernie Weishapl]

Shiraz,

Thanks for the post. I just bought a G0555 Bandsaw with riser and am extremely satisfied with it. One great machine. So I am already stocking the bank for my next Griz buy which will probably be one of your tablesaws. Thanks again for the info and hope you will keep us informed when new equipment comes out and more info on your other equipment.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Andrew – Thank you for your kind words and your business.

Yes, participation in the forum could take up a lot of time. I will try to frequent SMC more often and clarify things where I can, but you can imagine how much "spare" time I have.

Rob – We have discontinued the G0500 for 2006 since it has been replaced with the G0586. Here’s a link to the G0500 at our web site. http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/item.aspx?itemnumber=G0500 (http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/item.aspx?itemnumber=G0500) Also, on the top right of our home page www.grizzly.com (http://www.grizzly.com) is a "search" box and if you type in the model number it should come up.

There is a deep discount on the G0500 right now and they are flying out. I would say that we will be out of them in about two weeks – maybe sooner.

G0500 is made in Taiwan. G0586 is made in China by the same Taiwanese factory. I was just there ten days ago and had met with the owner who spends half the month in China and half the month in Taiwan (what a life!). What has happened is that several Taiwanese companies have opened up plants in this one city in Southern China and the castings are made about a block away by a Taiwanese company and the motors are made about a mile down the road by another Taiwanese company. The cutterheads and knives come from Taiwan. Since these factories are new (2 to 4 years old), all the manufacturing machines are modern and new – more so than some of the machines at their Taiwan plants. This is actually advantageous. They also have all Taiwanese managers who live at the factory. Little different lifestyle than what we are used to. We also send our Taiwan inspectors together with our China inspectors to check the machines as our shipments are usually large. For example, 400 8" jointers were just completed while I was there. I was dealing with a crating issue and all the crates had to be reinforced.

The G0586 is a very nice machine. Buy the model you like, but don’t let the low price of the G0586 fool you – we have simply passed on savings to our customers. If I were buying, G0586 would be my pick.

Vaughn – Thank you for your comments. Actually, I am in charge of marketing as well and will leave the marketing spin for other mediums.

Jay – and Andrew, I hear you. That’s all I will say right now.

Andy – We have five full-time tech writers and three full-time photographers. Every time I add a new machine, I get the sheepish "evil eye" from them. It’s a chain reaction – new machine equals new artwork for packaging, new labeling, new manual (which entails dozens of internal/external and component photographs), exploded parts drawings and ordering and pricing parts. There are 40 pages of new machines and products in the 2006 catalog!

To top it off, metalworking manuals are more difficult to prepare. Having said that, we recently have revamped all the metalworking manuals and they are being formatted/synchronized. Most of our manuals are available online so do check every few months if an updated version is available for your machine.

Yes, we are at a disadvantage for the "touch and feel" part. We only do the IWF (Atlanta) and AWFS (Vegas) shows – they are once a year. Shows are extremely hard on us and when you have double digit growth for many, many years in a row, trying to do shows to bring in more business could be counterproductive. Nevertheless, point taken about information and perhaps this is helping a bit.

John - Actually, the green and "white" combo is a favorite of many. Would you like a can of green paint to cover up the white? :)

When it comes to a shop, I am a little spoilt. I have a 3,000 sq. ft. woodworking shop and about a 600 sq. ft. metalworking shop at my house. Someday I will get around to posting pictures.

Richard, Howie, Steve, Bernie – Thanks.

[Mike Cutler]

Whoa.. I'm impressed that Mr. Balolia took the time to respond to this post. It points out two things to me. One,we definitely as a group are being paid attention to, and secondly, that Grizzly is committed to reversing the perception of inferior quality products that it used to have( apparently).
For the record Shiraz, I've never used, nor seen a Grizzly machine, of any type, ergo, I can neither condemn, nor condone your products.
In general they are well recieved by the purchaser's and get favorable reviews both here and on other forums. Not withstanding the negative posts about the shipping damages, your products seem to be well recieved.
In defense of Dev, and his post's though there are points that I must agree with him on, when it comes to engineering design practices, and machine tolerances.
A quality machine, in the case of a jointer, is more than just a flat table, no matter where it is ground at. It is the mass of the machine as a unit to mitigate the harmonics of vibration that would destroy bearings premaurally and cause other components to distort and wear over time. It's the design of the tables as a whole to eliminate unnecessary moment and cause sagging over time, by selecting the proper metals and manufacturing techniques to mitigate poor modulus characteristics that would manifest themselves in 20 years. It's the fit and polish of the ways, and the selection of complimentry metals to eliminate hysterisis, and allow the machine to remain as functional and tolerant, 20 years later, as the day that it was produced.
I can tell you that two of the machines that I have, that are painted white, are not going to meet this test of time. They have become intolerant to the effects of temperature cycles over time and are measurably distorting. These are essentially "throw away" machines. The temps in my shop can swing from -5 to >100 deg F. These machines are less than 10 years old.
The machines that Dev refers to in his posts have all met this "test of time" so to speak. Their designs have been copied and incorporated into product lines by various manufactures since the day that they closed their doors, or their patents expired. One diservice in comparing them to the current products coming from Taiwan, is that these machines were very expensive when they were brand new 50 or 60 years ago, and some still sell for more than a newly manufactured machine.
The true testimonial will come 50 years from now if folks are looking for parts for an 'ol Griz' to rebuild, that they found in a farmhouse in upstate somewhere, USA
It is a little frustrating for the consumer to wade thru the marketing hype of the current offering of machines. The machines from Taiwan appear to be essentially the same, minus the paint color, and as Paul Cresti has pointed out, the designs are out of date in some respects, mostly safety and the processing of large sheetgoods, and multi tasking by a single owner operator shop.
In closing. If people are taiking about your products, either negative, or positive it demonstrates that you are having an impact on the market. Mr Balolia, people talk about Grizzly alot, so you must be doing something right.

[Frank Pellow]

Shiraz, welcome to Saw Mill Creek. I was very interested to read what you said and it definately has raised Grizzly in my exteem. :) I really do encourage you to paticipate more here.

Of course, since you don't sell into Canada, all I can do is read about and wish for some of your machines. :( And, there are definately some I would consider buying if that were possible.

[Scott Parks]

THis is no way related to the original post on Jointers, but, I feel it is appropriate to chime in here....


I give the Grizz 2 thumbs up! For almost a year I fiddled with a cabinet saw that I could just not 'tune' right. I did not have any experience with a cabinet saw and did not know if I was asking for too much precision, or this was the best to expect. After 3 arbor assemble replacements, they sent me a brand new saw.

With very little tweaking, the new one performs flawless. All the issues the old one had, the new one did not. I've spent a few days this week finally working with the saw, and I am very happy.

Unfortunately the first one was a lemon, (sometimes mistakes happen, and I think it MAY have had a cracked trunnion, though, I really don't know) but the new one is TOPS. Grizzly bent over backwards on this one and MADE IT RIGHT! Thank you Grizzly!

[lou sansone]

Shiraz.
quite interesting that you did take time to post here a the creek.. welcome

I have acutally owned a grizzly 20 planer and it worked fine for what I was doing. reasonable price and decent performance. I actually ran 1000's of feet of wood through that machine. I eventually sold it and bought an italian machine that cost about 25 times more. Did it plane boards 25 times better .... no of couse not. ( I actually only paid 10 cents on the dollar and so you don't need to send be the stupid person award ). My brother ownes a TS and jointer and they also seem to work fine.

It cracks me up that sometimes people expect a 800 dollar machine to have the same fit and finish as one that costs 16k. It just is not going to happen. But for many it does not need to be any better then what is realizable in that 800 dollar machine made overseas. As I stated earlier in my previous post, I knew that when folks read the FWW review that some were going to claim foul. It was with tongue and cheek that I mentioned having FWW do a review on the old time machies like newman, porter and oliver. I think that if those exact machines were still being made in the US that the price point would just be out of reach of almost anyone.

I happen to be partial to some of the older iron machines that can be obtained for a pretty reasonable cost, but with the understanding that parts and such are going to be your problem. I also see that the ww industry has made some real improvements in the last 15 years in areas like sliding table saws. Some of the older iron beasts should just be buried.

On a seperate but related note, I am not sure what you meant by the comment that dev should be taking his hat off to your company. would you care to elaborate?

regards
lou

[Steve Clardy]

Welcome to the creek Papa Grizzly. Enjoyed your response.

I frequent your Springfield store a few times a year. Strangely, your employees lighten the load in my billfold about every time. Lol
Steve

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Shiraz.....Welcome to the Creek and thanks for stopping by! We could always use a little "inside information" on the manufacturing of woodworking equipment. We'd love to see photos of you woodoworking and metal shops. While most of us won't be able to afford to own or outfit one like yours, we can always drool for free! Thanks again!

[Jim Becker]

Shiraz, I'll echo the welcome and thank you for your comments. I'll also pile on with the request that from time to time you share you woodworking/instrument making with us. There are quite a few folks who occasionally chat about/ask about/drool about musical instrument making and even keyboard players like me enjoy stringed instruments. Since this is a passion of yours, any sharing will be greatly appreciated. (And it's more fun than selling tools, anyway... ;) )

[Shiraz Balolia]

On a seperate but related note, I am not sure what you meant by the comment that dev should be taking his hat off to your company. would you care to elaborate?

lou

Dev said:
"If grizz came out with a version of the DJ-20 with their own smell on it, my hat would be off to them. If they make a good, clean machine with no issues, I could even buy one."

I said:
"Dev - If you are not wearing a hat, you might want to start now as you WILL be taking it off to us (read your own post)."<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Keith Foster]

Since were talking about jointers, I have the G0586 8" jointer and it has a very nice manual. Well written - all in English, and very easy to understand. Same on the other Grizzly tools (G0551, G0576, and the G0440). So, from that perspective, the latest manuals are excellent.

I'll also add that PapaGrizzly's willingness to post in web forums and allow us the oppertunity to interact with him directly is one of the main reasons I first purchased a Grizzly machine. After that, an excellent experience with customer service and follow up by Grizzly kept me coming back for more.

[JayStPeter]

Wow, 3 posts and 2 new machine hints. Way to start off strong!
I guess I'll hold off on a planer upgrade. I just got some new parts for my benchtop that should keep it going for a little while longer. Can I pry for a timeframe on the j/p. Gotta plan ahead so I'll have some money saved when you need pre-orders :D .

Jay

[Andy Hoyt]

.... Andy – We have five full-time tech writers and three full-time photographers. Every time I add a new machine, I get the sheepish "evil eye" from them. It’s a chain reaction – new machine equals new artwork for packaging, new labeling, new manual (which entails dozens of internal/external and component photographs), exploded parts drawings and ordering and pricing parts. There are 40 pages of new machines and products in the 2006 catalog!....
Shiraz -- Okay. Now you've lost points. Do they work for you or do you work for them? Bitching qbout having to do the job you pay them to do! Were I one of them I'd be grateful for every new product or change. What country do they work in?

So I guess you do have a problem.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Here we go again folks.....all I have heard so far from Dev is ... I know a lot about tools and my opinion is........ then a new manufacturer (to this site) comes in and says blah....blah....blah...advertisement....blah...bla h....advertisement.....

The good thing about this forum is it was free of companies trying to defend themselves or promote their products. Remember why I disagreed before? In all fairness to that hard working individual I felt the same should be said now also. Lets keep this site to guys/gals talking about tools, woodworking and design.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Andy - "sheepish evil eye" does not mean bitching. I have an incredible staff of employees and the only thing worse than someone insulting my machines, is someone insulting my employees.
A sign of a good boss is recognizing the load of work the employees are under. Due to the continuous addition of new machines and products, the tech writers are always behind, but dozens of manuals get produced every year and they are very good manuals - some of the best in the industry. However, their workload sure does not slow me down from adding new machines.

Jay - cannot release info. now, but constantly adding new machines and the new catalog will sure be a thrill to look through.

[Dev Emch]

Boy has quite a bit happened. I must say that I am pretty proud to have ruffled the upper ledger at grizz headquarters.:D Its dynamic interchange like this can actually be useful in pushing the threshold forward. But that would some intestinal fortitude by the companies themselves to tune in and focus on what is being said. So far, only Shiraz has bothered to show up. So Kudos to Shiraz!

First I must say that I stand behind everything that I have said and can verify it. In otherwords, I am not working off second hand, water tank skuttle-butt. According to you comentary, the two grizz machines that I have had contact with were pre-quality era machines. And I can take your word that you have gone to extra measures to improve your quality. Unfortuanately, that does not help us after the fact. What happened in the past is water under the bridge and money out of our checking accounts. As for the grinder, the color photo and dialog I refer to came directly from your catalog. The last one you actually mailed me by the way. Also, I keep a running notebook on all companies that are willing to divulge the recipe for the iron being used. For the record, Delta was, shall we say, less than couteous about my asking them what metal they used to make their machines. Schlosser of Denver did admit that they had to send back a number of tables from early generation DJ-15s and DJ-20s. By the way, the DJ-15 and DJ-20 and the planers have been made in tawian for a very long period of time. The bandsaws and unisaws were the main staple of the Tupelo plant. They began by plastering US flags onto the machines. Then general followed with the flag of Canada and powermatic was then putting a US flag on their main machines as well. General was very proud of its use of meehanite iron and actually published it in some of their sales material. Powermatic was also loose in divulging the iron content. They personally told me the story about their environmental disaster of a foundary. But as dirty as parts were, they never lost their meehanite certification. There was a period sometime around 1998 to 1999 where production numbers went down because they had some foundary quality issues. But none of that matters today due to the outcome of the DeVlieg bankrupcy filing and eventual sale of powermatic to jet.

First of all, we all need to take a step backwards in regard to the jointer review article in FWW. I do know that the author is a contributing editor. So does that mean that FWW endorses the viewpoints and methods of this author or does it mean that he is a free lancer who just happened to contribute the article.

I still stand behind my technical analysis of this article and freely encourage anyone to apply scientific method to unravel my points. As for working in 10ths, Shiraz, you need to re-read the table of the article. I did not bring up 10ths, the author did. Four times to be exact. In a sentence, given the field of the machines, it is nearly probablelisticly imposible for the grizz jointer to achieve a perfect score. Not even my beloved martin T-54 is this accurate. But even if we work just in mere thousandths, we are quite accurately splitting hairs. Three ways to be exact given a hair is about 3 thousandths of an inch. So I and virtually every old school machinist must respectfully agree to disagree on the validity of these feeler gage tests.

In regard to the comments about you sending FWW a "souped up" machine or a "wringer" as I recall you called it. I never said that nor do I believe that. Lets assume you did and you adjusted the table to ultimate perfection. How would one do this? Well, your going to have to scrape in the table. So to make things easy, you would use an autocollimator and set gear along with a scraper and some say, red lead or prussian blue. You could use either a motor driven scraper like a Biax Scraper or a hand scraper which was used for years prior to the advent of the swiss made Biax. Could you achieve 0.000 flatness? You Betcha! But there is one minor thing here. The table would have a scraped or frosted surface. If you have ever seen the ways on mint condition Brown & Sharpe mills, you would know what this looks like. The ways on my Oliver 125 tenoner are also scraped in with the same surface finish. It would be totally obvious that this jointer had been "Souped-Up". On these grounds, I discount those comments. I really believe that grizz sent a stock, straight off the line jointer to these folks for the tests. By the way, if you look at a cast iron surface plate or camel back straight edge, ,you will also witness this scraped surface. Often, this type of surface is called the Double Diamond.

Now, in regard to the use of CNC and powder coat. Powder coat is the wave of the future. I am an old school hold out still using Polane and its nasty stuff. Lots of isocyantes and VOCs. Each time I spray, I am dressed up like I am going to the moon. Professional shops have to buy pollution permits to release VOCs. Its no fun. Powder coat has its own issues regarding the ovens and spray gear. I dont have this gear so I am stuck in the old school. But powder coat is simply put, unreal! You can take a sheet of metal coated in powder coat and bang it with a ball peen hammer. The paint will ride the divot and **NOT** de-laminate like older spray on enamels will. And as a side effect, it can yield a surface finish that looks like wet finger nail varnish. Going to powder coat in the long run is one of the best things you can do for quality and its also going to save you a massive amount of money. I know you build in Tawian and China but eventually, states like CA may go so far as to add an environmental tax to pursade companies to switch from less than ideal environmental finish methods (i.e. Polane and VOCs) to greener methods such as powder coat. Currently, certain paint such as the teal color OPEX lacquer used by the Oliver machines is no longer available in CA. The CA guys have had to go to Dupont Imron and I have sent out the teal color recipe to a number of guys as a result.

The biggest advange to going to CNC is that holes that belong there actually get drilled there. There are many more advantages but its missing holes on jointers that has gotten me upset in the past. But CNC can also be used on sheet metal work such as guards and base units to produce absolute accurate and repeatable designs. I am glad to hear that your going this way.

The landscape of this industry has changed. The argument that you should buy something made in the United States is flawed not on one count but on two counts. Sure, I can buy a $15,000 Northfield jointer brand new and its made in the USA. I can also buy a german made Martin T-54 for that price as well. But lets get real. Who else is there? Delta? Grizzly? SCMI? Bridgewood? Jet? etc. etc. The point is, that for this size range and realistic price group, there is nobody left. The general 480 will give you a serious run for the lead position. And its north american. It is also $1700 ish dollars and frequently has a 6 month waiting list. (I know as I had to wait this 6 months to get mine. I sold it when I went to a larger jointer).

So for the package of features, availability and price, the grizz is a solid option. You people also have parts availability which many of the other importers dont have. How many times did a certain, now defunt, blue machine send folks over to your company for parts? I only wish that the review had been done a bit more carefully to insure a more robust level of objectivity. For whats its worth, there are only two jointers in the group that I consider solid enough to consider. The DJ-20 and, everyone hold your breath on this one as I am going to get everyone to choke, the grizz.

Yes, I have not been a fan of grizz and I have had my issues with them based on personal empirical history and not hear say. But I have also read the reviews of many of the newer grizz machine owners who are happy and I have taken note. I am listening here with a long ear. Just as Jet evolved in its quality esp. on going from the blue machines to the white machines, so can it be expected that grizz has also been busy here. Your post and subsequent explanations about hiring QA engineers and fine tuning the production process albeit with constrenations of your oveseas folks goes a long way to evolving grizz into a top player.

And your comment about my having to take my hat off. Can I assume that you guys are about to release your own version of a parallogram based jointer?:D:D:D I know its not practice to release this info but reading between your lines implies this. Now you have me sitting on the edge of my chair in anticipation. This would be the second parallogram of its type in this size group and welcome compeition for the DJ series. I am very ansty about this right now. Very excited!

And for whats its worth. I am formally trained as both an Aerospace Engineer **AND** an Electrical & Computer Engineer. I **DID NOT** sleep at a Holiday Inn last night either. My preception of machine tools is from the old school. Companies like Oliver, Newman, Tannewitz and Maka in the woodworking industry and Brown & Sharpe, Kearney & Trecker, Hardinge, Rockford, LeBlond and Amercian in the machine tool industry. I still think that the finest milling machines ever made were by Brown & Sharpe and the best metal lathes ever made were the Monarch 10EE and Hardinge HLV for toolroom applications and the venerable American Pacemaker for engine lathe applications. The engineer who designed the pacemaker was simply put, a machine tool God!

And I too have my own machine shop. It includes an HLV-EM lathe, two rockford openside metal planers, one 20,000 pound DeVlieg 3B-48 Jigbore milling machine, and a collection of smaller milling machines. I even have a bridgeport series one but I consider that more a drill press than a milling machine. Oh ya, I also have a 36 inch Bullard Turret lathe and both 20 in and 24 in hydraulic metal shapers. One is a GEMCO and the other is a Rockford. These are useful toys as many consider metal shapers seriously obsolete. I also have a a Brown & Sharpe electro-hydraulic OD/ID cylindrical grinder. So making parts like shaper spindles, shaper quills, trunions, etc. is child's play.

So my viewpoints are not just from someone who regurgitates the street skuttle butt. I will admit that I have considered building my own woodworking machines. That is a hobby gone wild and if I go back to working in engineering again, I may just do this for fun. To show the world what a real woodworking machine should look like. Even the super machines of our past were not perfect nor was the entire line by these companies. I dont like Porter shapers nor do I like the pot belly disc sanders. But boy did they do a job on the new generation disc sanders and the 2SP spindle sander. Now those were sanders. Martin did a great job on the T-54 but I am not crazy about the yoke design and the cutter head configuration. There are a number of issues I would like to improve. I dont own a wide belt sander yet. I have not found one that I am happy with. So I have been keeping a notebook on all these positive and negative features and what I would like to see. Also, changes I as an engineer would like to put into these machines. Unlike most engineers these days, I have not only the skills to machine these items but the machine shop in which to do it. I have also spent many years designing electro-servo systems in the computer storage industry. There are a number of new ideas I would like to work on regarding the auto tracking system for the belts and in particular, how it works in conjuction with a wide platen.

The worst thing that anyone can do is to follow an idea with blind conviction. Whether that is a religious zealot looking to meet Allah vis a viz an IED device or someone who just blindly follows a machine tool line such as Oliver. Yes, not only am I ripping Grizz but I also rip on Oliver. Fancy That! By questioning and forcing change, we identify the flaws and focus on the improvements. That is how evolution works. And as I have mentioned many times, I dont like the pot belly disc sanders by kindt collins. I think they stink. Did that keep me away? NOPE! They came back with a new line of disc sanders that are fantastic and they came up with one of the finest spindle sanders out there. Bravo! I now own one of each and would not sell them for anything! So is there room in my shop for a grizz? Show me something I like that has been improved and the asnwer is, by all means!

Of the well over 300 companies that made woodworking machines in north america, many were junk. Did you ever read my having posted this before or did you only focus on my grizzly comentary? Of this group, only about 10 to 20 names remain in the highly desireable list. In all fairness to you, this list is a list of companies who manufacture or DID manufacture machines in North America. This is an OWWM standard and I have nothing to do with setting these rules. Most of these companies are now defunt. But after 20 some odd years, I have assembled a list of those machines worthy of a design excellence award. To make my list, the design has to speak for itself. And its from this list that I have gone out and sought those machines. Chip Fuss gives a Design Excellence award each year for above and beyond design excellence in the custom car industry. I have quietly done the same for woodworking machines both past and present. So what should I say to a present day entry who is now crying split milk for not making this list? All I can say is keep on trying knowing that this award is looming. Win it and you will know it from me! And if current progress is any indicator, I should get ready to tip my cap to you very soon. I really have a soft spot for the parallogram design.

I hope this diatribe lets you and others know more about who I am and where I am comming from. It also forces me to blow some sunshine up my skirt to defend myself in your presence. Please forgive me on this count as I normally am more humble than that.

Good Day...

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Here we go again folks.....all I have heard so far from Dev is ... I know a lot about tools and my opinion is........ then a new manufacturer (to this site) comes in and says blah....blah....blah...advertisement....blah...bla h....advertisement.....

The good thing about this forum is it was free of companies trying to defend themselves or promote their products. Remember why I disagreed before? In all fairness to that hard working individual I felt the same should be said now also. Lets keep this site to guys/gals talking about tools, woodworking and design.

Well...Dev's a guy...and Mr Grizzly gave a response that addressed specific points from the original post...so what's the problem?

[Dev Emch]

I have to agree with Kirk on this one Paul. I welcome open and vigorous debate using this forum. In the end analysis, Shiraz et al (i.e. Papa Grizz) depends on us for business and we depend on his company and others for woodworking machines. Lets salute him for expending some of his limited time for a response and for taking note on what we are discussing. I like to think we are his focus group. A very tough focus group. Who knows, if the green oliver had this chance back in the early 1990s, maybe they would be here today!

[Ian Barley]

Shiraz - Thanks for taking the time to post. From what I see of Grizzly's products, if you were in my market I would probably own some.

Paul - sorry - gotta disagree on this one. If manufacturers make posts which respond with information not slogans then I think they have value. FWIW the mistake was to include a link to the Grizzly site which I think should be removed. The rest of the post reads more like information than advertising to me.

[Mike Cutler]

Paul.
I have to agree with the others. Nothing in Shiraz Balolia post seemed to be advertising, in fact it was quite the opposite. He may have cost his company some sales by inferring that Grizzly has a few new product models in the pipeline. People may hold off on purchases until these new models are introduced.
This site is about the sharing of info. Some people may never have Dev's insight into machine processing, or your forsight as relates to the european style machines, but everyone gets to learn.
Your posts on sliders and multi function machines have, or will result in a $30K order to Mini Max. A friend in the extremely high end cabinet making trade has read all the posts here on the board, as he needs to upgrade from essentially a "Garage Shop" to support his business. We might call this advertisement of a sort.
We may never be able to justify the purchase of a shop setup that emulates yours, or have the experience to rehab a machine, as does Dev. I'll never build houses on the scale of Mark Singer, I think my door was close to his;) but from it all we all learn.
I believe that I learned more about Grizzly from Mr. Balolia post than from the catalog they have. Will it sway me to purchase a Griz' I can't say, but I may drive out to Muncie Pa. to have a look.;)

[lou sansone]

Dev said:
"If grizz came out with a version of the DJ-20 with their own smell on it, my hat would be off to them. If they make a good, clean machine with no issues, I could even buy one."

I said:
"Dev - If you are not wearing a hat, you might want to start now as you WILL be taking it off to us (read your own post)."<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


ok doke ... sorry I missed the obvious :rolleyes:

Thanks for the clarificaton
lou

[Frank Pellow]

Here we go again folks.....all I have heard so far from Dev is ... I know a lot about tools and my opinion is........ then a new manufacturer (to this site) comes in and says blah....blah....blah...advertisement....blah...bla h....advertisement.....

The good thing about this forum is it was free of companies trying to defend themselves or promote their products. Remember why I disagreed before? In all fairness to that hard working individual I felt the same should be said now also. Lets keep this site to guys/gals talking about tools, woodworking and design.
Paul I must disagree with you. Shiraz has responded in a way that is quite different than the posts you are refering to. I enjoyed reading what Shiraz said and I feel that I am beter informed because of reading it. As with a lot of reading that I do, I am quite able to rember that I am only hearing one side of the story.

[Alan Turner]

Shiraz,

I am late to this lengthy party, but do want to thank you for your comments, and the information you provided. I have no Grizz's, being more inclined to old iron (but without the skill or knowledge of Dev), but I think the market would welcome a more affordabe TS with a true riving knife. I have a new SawStop, and have been using it for a bit of rough work as I build 10 workbenches benches for a teaching studio. It was spendy, but for students I thought it a necessity. A fine saw, but not heads or shoulders over my 1992 Unisaw, except for the safety features.

Ripping an imperfect board is never desirable, and I know a slider would be even better, but boy, that riving knife is a wonderful feature.

Since I know you give thought to new tools/features, I would hope that a true riving knife is in your sights.

[Frank Pellow]

...
Since I know you give thought to new tools/features, I would hope that a true riving knife is in your sights.
I am sure that support of a riving knife would give Grizzley a big advantage. It is certainly a much more important feature than the (gimicky in my opinion) feature that the Saw Stop is named for.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys,
I just felt it was the correct thing for me to do since I have posted the same feelings in another situation. I have very strong opinions on the equipment I use but I have directly come from the actual users side. I made a leap of faith to what I own (and yes just a slight financial s t r e t c h ) but it truly is a whole different world on the European side. If others are tempted, and should be, it will only help them out in the end not me.

Yes the president of Grizzly outlined his post very eloquently but the following ones were about his machines, even knew ones not out yet (how about that for a tease), and how he is making them better. That is marketing, PR, advertising....... I do not think we should allow it. I would think maybe a separate forum/chat group where manufacturers (sponsored by them) could answer questions would be more appropriate. I am not getting into machines at all or the fact that IMHO a company that lives off of copying everyone elses designs (or attampts to) goes to third world coutries to cheaply make them, forces some of our industries to go belly up....I will stop because I am getting myself into trouble :)

[Chris Barton]

Hi Paul,

I understand your logic on this but, I would disagree about the off shore comment. First, well made precission products will always be in demand based upon the value they offer. I think your machines are proof of that. However, we do live in a capitalist market driven society. The reason most domestic tool makers fail is because they price themselves into a market dominated by imported products that are much less expensive largely because labor is much less expensive. People have budgets, and they have expectations. The fact is that Grizzly has found a market niche, they make a quality product at a price that the public feels to be a value. If you cruise their site you will see they also make large format sliders as well and they appear to be priced right around what the Euro run for. Strangely, the USA has found a way to do this with cars (Ford, Chevy, etc...) but not with some other products. LN make planes that are out of the price range for most yet they thrive.

[David Pettibone]

Slightly going off course from the last 10 or so posts. My layman take on all major stationary tools in general.

As stated before, if I spend around $1,000 on a jointer, once set-up I expect it to work as a jointer should without major fiddling. I don't think this is too much to ask and I disagree with the post that said were are asking too much of a jointer in that price range. Fella's, it's a $1,000 hard earned dollars.
As far as the fit and finish of a 16k jointer versus a $1,000 jointer, well it surely better be better than the fit and finish of a $1,000 jointer. Besides the horsepower and blade width, something better be better, WAY BETTER for a $15,000 difference. Those who can afford that difference, I am sincerely more than happy for you and there's no sour grapes on my part. But the vass majority of people will never be able to justify that purchase. But those people should not be stuck with an inferior product after spending 4 digits on the tool.

Here's my reasoning: I built a breakfront cabinet for a friend of a friend about 3 years ago. When he came to my shop to pick it up he could not believe my lack of stationary tools. When he saw my 6 inch delta portable jointer, he said "you used THAT to make my cabinet". I said "yes, were you expecting something else, perhaps a little bit bigger". My point is this. All of the doors, drawers, face frames, etc.... were edge jointed using my little jointer. There is no woodworker that I know of who could say with certainty how those boards were edge jointed. It could have been a hand plane, portable planer, stationary planer, a beast of a planer, a straight edge with a router, or heck even an outstanding blade on a tablesaw. Clamps help a lot!!!!!!
It doesn't matter how you get there, but that you got there. In the end, anyone from David Pettibone (layman) to David Marks (my hero) could not tell for certain how it was done without being there to watch the chosen technique. If the joints are tight, who cares.

Obviously, it will take longer using one method over the over. But you buy the best you can afford and do the best with it. This theory doesn't fly with someone who has a major business and can justify any expense. But for the majority of people, you should get a heck of a machine and very acceptable results from a machine costing over $1,000. If not, you've not gotten enough value for your money, in my opinion anyways. Thanks for reading this dribble and I hope I have not put anyone to sleep. Good Day!

Gratefully, David:)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Chris,
I guess being a Design Professional (Architect) I am very sensitve to other people "stealing" designs from others. I understand the shift in manufacturing locations and cost/competition does in some ways help us in the long run but it does not help with the knot in my stomache. I guess it is called pride in ones country and in my case I have two. I believe products made in Japan at one time were considered cheap and inferior bit today they make some of the best stuff in the world. These other countries will also catch up as our economies are becoming more global everyday.

Anyway getting back to machines...... yes they are "making" some European style machines but there sure are not there yet, not even close. As far as the old American stuff, just about anyone can make this stuff. Make then sound, simple and accurate and they will work and work well. When you have two products exactly the same in performance and quality and one is made in country "A" and one in country "B" at twice the cost, yes it is very hard to tell someone to buy the more expensive one just because.

[lou sansone]

Hi Paul,

I understand your logic on this but, I would disagree about the off shore comment. First, well made precission products will always be in demand based upon the value they offer. I think your machines are proof of that. However, we do live in a capitalist market driven society. The reason most domestic tool makers fail is because they price themselves into a market dominated by imported products that are much less expensive largely because labor is much less expensive. People have budgets, and they have expectations. The fact is that Grizzly has found a market niche, they make a quality product at a price that the public feels to be a value. If you cruise their site you will see they also make large format sliders as well and they appear to be priced right around what the Euro run for. Strangely, the USA has found a way to do this with cars (Ford, Chevy, etc...) but not with some other products. LN make planes that are out of the price range for most yet they thrive.

wait a minute here ! domestic manufactures are sort of required to provide a "living wage" ( I am using loose terms here). To simply say that china is on par with the US as far as human rights and a "living wage" is concerned it just not correct. I do agree with paul that IP is not respected one iota in China. If they can steal it they will.

lou

[Alden Miller]

Glad to see Grizzly here and posting.

I for one will not purchase anything from Grizzly anymore. I had an encounter with their customer service when trying to buy some replacement parts for my jointer that has convinced me never ever to purchase anything from them.

I'd say that while paying attention to the quality of your machines to pay attention to the customer service aspect also.

-Alden

[Tom Jones III]

– it’s a Grizzly bashing party. I also take exception to a comment made by Tom Jones III that Grizzly is "not known for high end woodworking tools".
Since you felt the need to call me out by name, I will respond to that particular section. I take exception to lumping me into the topic of Grizzly bashing, I did no such thing and I resent the implication. If you will review any and all of my past posts, you will find no instance of my bashing anyone or any company.

In my original post, I had forgotten the large and varied Grizzly product line. My post referred to machines of main interest to this forum. Specifically I had in mind my recent table saw purchase. If you ask most hobbyist wood workers to quickly name 2 table saws they might purchase if they wanted "the best" without regard to price, I have no doubt that Powermatic 66 and Delta Unisaw would be the most popular choices. I would be very surprised if many people named the Grizzly TS as "the best" without regard to price. The same goes for band saws. Look through posts here, if someone posts a question like "what is the best 18" BS that I can get?" You will get Laguna and MiniMax as almost exclusive answers.

From my original post:
"I would find the review more believeable if he had stated a formula that weights flatness, knife quality, fence, price etc. and then demonstrated that the grizzly scored the best on the given formula."

I stand by this original comment. In fact, when making this formula for my personal decision on a table saw purchase, Grizzly came very close to winning. If price had a slightly higher weight in my personal formula, Grizzly would have won with no contest. In the original statement there is no hint of Grizzly bashing.


In my own research to purchase a TS, it came down to the Grizzly 1023SL with all the options and a Powermatic 66 with extended table and mobile stand. Let me tell you, it was a tough decision. I am confident that I could have been happy with the Grizzly. In the end I chose the PM, probably for many of the same reasons you hear over and over ... #1 I did not want to make a major purchase without putting my hands on one, #2 I did not want to deal with shipping such a heavy item and any possible returns, #3 I knew the people I was buying the PM from, they provide good service and are good people to work with.

[Mike Cutler]

Guys,
....I will stop because I am getting myself into trouble :)

Don't stop Paul. Your post are articulate and factual, and represent a complete challenge to the ideals of folks when it comes to machinery expectations and design.

Most folks, myself included, were schooled on the "old style" designs. Our safety, and material processing practices are dictated by the designs, and limitations of these designs, of the machines we were taught on as teenagers.
The european/ multi function machines present a new learning challenge for alot of people that may take them out of their individual "comfort zone" so to speak when operating machinery.

Dave Pettibone. I know that it seems as if I am being elitist in my assesment of machinery that doesn't equal the cost of a new car, but this is far from reality.
All of the stationary machines in my shop were $1K or under. I do expect them to perform their intended function, and give me a quality result. I wouldn't expect any of them to be able to be used long term in a production shop, except for maybe the planer( 15" Jet). These are lighter duty machines and wouldn't hold up to 8 hour days use, but then I have no actual need for a machine that does.
It doesn't bother me to have to "fiddle" a bit with my machines, or remake some of the weak link parts, or maybe even alter the design slightly, but if I spent $10-$20K on a machine, it better come out of the crate ready to go and essentially setup. It would really torgue me to have take a $15K machine apart to remake a part that was built or fabricated cheaply. before I could use it.

We have as a group though deviated from the original intent, of the initial post, that being that the testing methodology used in the jointer comparison test was suspect, which may have led to erroneous assumptions and results.
I don't find it reasonable to accept the results of a feeler gauge and a straight edge, there are simply too many variables for me. I also wouldn't expect that this would be part of an inspection criteria or program.
Testing and qualification of any trace able device always has associated tolerances, The mechanical devices in question are calibrated using a granite surfacing table kept at a standard temperature of 25 deg. C in a mechanical room with a negative atmosphere to eliminate contaminates on the surface. The room pressure, and humidity are closely controlled. The primary standard to measure these devices is a laser,and or an ultrasonic/infared transmitter reciever that measure the surface disturbance of the devices, and reference them to the table. There are also standards that measure the disturbance of magnetic lines of flux to quantify deviations in measurement.
When a device leaves the lab it is given a tolerance based on the expected range of use of application. In other words, will the device be used at 0 degrees F or 200 deg. F and what would be the deviation from calibrated value based on enviomental applications.
If both the straight edge, and the feeler gauges are not calibrated in a consistent fashion, the results are null and void A commercially manufactured set of feeler gauges has a +/- value associated with them, the straight edge also has an +/- tolerance. Companies like Starrett provide a certification of tolerance with their instruments, and measuring devices. they also provide documents for conformance of use and applicability to bound the use of the instruments for an intended application.
There are better devices to measure the surface distortion of a flat surface than a a straight edge and feeler gauges, that would eliminate the algebraic sum of the errors, additionally how many measurements were taken? were the mesurement made along a different axis in the same plane? and if so what were the min/max measurement, the mean and average values of the surface distortion? What was the temp of the measured surface and the instruments? As I stated, too many variables and unknowns for me.
I still agree with Dev. If you are going to publish "test results" they really need to be conducted in a manner that leaves less subject to interpertation, also testing methodologies and criteria should also have been outlined. There is no such value as "zero" it simply cannot be quantified.
Sorry for the long post, just be glad we didn't get started on a pressure discussion.:eek:

[lou sansone]

Slightly going off course from the last 10 or so posts. My layman take on all major stationary tools in general.

As stated before, if I spend around $1,000 on a jointer, once set-up I expect it to work as a jointer should without major fiddling. I don't think this is too much to ask and I disagree with the post that said were are asking too much of a jointer in that price range. Fella's, it's a $1,000 hard earned dollars.
As far as the fit and finish of a 16k jointer versus a $1,000 jointer, well it surely better be better than the fit and finish of a $1,000 jointer. Besides the horsepower and blade width, something better be better, WAY BETTER for a $15,000 difference. Those who can afford that difference, I am sincerely more than happy for you and there's no sour grapes on my part. But the vass majority of people will never be able to justify that purchase. But those people should not be stuck with an inferior product after spending 4 digits on the tool.

Here's my reasoning: I built a breakfront cabinet for a friend of a friend about 3 years ago. When he came to my shop to pick it up he could not believe my lack of stationary tools. When he saw my 6 inch delta portable jointer, he said "you used THAT to make my cabinet". I said "yes, were you expecting something else, perhaps a little bit bigger". My point is this. All of the doors, drawers, face frames, etc.... were edge jointed using my little jointer. There is no woodworker that I know of who could say with certainty how those boards were edge jointed. It could have been a hand plane, portable planer, stationary planer, a beast of a planer, a straight edge with a router, or heck even an outstanding blade on a tablesaw. Clamps help a lot!!!!!!
It doesn't matter how you get there, but that you got there. In the end, anyone from David Pettibone (layman) to David Marks (my hero) could not tell for certain how it was done without being there to watch the chosen technique. If the joints are tight, who cares.

Obviously, it will take longer using one method over the over. But you buy the best you can afford and do the best with it. This theory doesn't fly with someone who has a major business and can justify any expense. But for the majority of people, you should get a heck of a machine and very acceptable results from a machine costing over $1,000. If not, you've not gotten enough value for your money, in my opinion anyways. Thanks for reading this dribble and I hope I have not put anyone to sleep. Good Day!

Gratefully, David:)


I just don't understand your rational ... I have to believe that what ever you do for a living has some connection with price and quality. Do you build the EXACT same Quality counter top ( exact same size ) for 2 different people and charge one 1000 dollars and the other 15000. If you do, either one is getting a heck of a deal or something is wrong with the cost model. Time is $$. This is not to say that both counter tops sort of do what they are supposed to ( allow pots and such to sit on top of and be easy to clean ). I would think that if you did do a counter top job for someone and charged them 15 grand and another prospective customer stoped by and said " wow nice counter top, but I only want to pay 1000 dollars for the same thing" you might have to discuss fit, finish, longevity, overally quality, design, service after the sale, on and on..
Why should it be any different when it comes to machine tools? Is is not generally true that "you get what you pay for" ?

lou

[Bill Simmeth]

I mostly lurk here at the Creek (as I do at most forums I follow), but would like to share my rather pointed opinions on the subject of Mr. Balolia (aka "Papa Grizzly" on another forum) posting here...

1. We don't need more manufacturer advertising/PR/subliminal messaging whatever you want to call it. This quote in this thread, directed to Mr. Balolia says it all in my humble opinion...
Wow, 3 posts and 2 new machine hints. Way to start off strong!The man has a web site, mails out umpteen gillion catalogs per year, gets free coverage of his press releases in every WW magazine out there and it's near impossible to pick-up a magazine without some Grizzly product being reviewed in it (esp. now that FWW has joined the bandwagon!). WE DON'T NEED IT HERE, TOO! What next, invite in reps from Delta, Powermatic, MiniMax, SawStop, etc. so they can get equal air time?

2. Grizzly vs Delta vs Powermatic vs Old Iron is one of those "sure fire" thread topics -- just add kerosene. It's bad enough when members have a personal stake via purchasing a particluar brand, but IMHO, it just provides more tinder when a member OWNS one of the brands.

3. I will choose my words carefully here... I value the community spirit on this forum and the free exchange of ideas and opinions without discussions devolving into bashing and personal attacks. Mr. Balolia has demonstrated on at least one other forum that he has little patience for those who do not "appreciate" his company's products and services. In a thread on another forum (with user "handles" in lieu of real names) he became so agitated with a member who posted his dissatisfaction with Grizzly's products and services that he searched through his company's database to identify the forum member and then proceeded to post the member's full name and home address -- ON A PUBLIC FORUM. This action not only flies in the face of generally accepted internet courtesies, but also defies all basic tenents of business and personal ethics. I think it also makes other members think twice before posting negative experiences with his company (coincidence?). I most certainly hope this practice of does not follow Mr. Balolia here...

4. Mr. Balolia's participation on another forum has turned it into a mini-Grizzly help line -- "Papa Grizz can you check on my order?", "Papa Grizz why do you use XYZ Trucking Co?", "Papa Grizz when is the new bandsaw fence shipping?" We don't need that here, too.

From what I've heard, Mr. Balolia is a very talented woodworker/luthier. If he wants to post and share about his craft, great! But, leave the business hat in the office, please. Should the prevailing sentiment of the forum decide differently, may I suggest that at the very least, this sub-forum be split into two -- one for Woodworking and one for Power Tools -- as other forums have done. That way those of us interested in reading woodworking discussions need not wade through the myriad "Papa Grizz please help me" posts.

[tod evans]

dev, i`ve been keeping track of this thread and for what it`s worth my hat is off to you not just for making waves but for your factual and analytical approach to machine construction. please don`t relent i for one want to hear what you have to say about any machine you choose to critique. tod

[Bill Simmeth]

I am sure that support of a riving knife would give Grizzley a big advantage.Sorry to pick on your quote, Frank, but I think it bears out two points...

1. Mr. Balolia's few posts here have already planted marketing seeds that are sprouting. The truth is Powermatic already ships a traditional American-style 10" cabinet saw with a riving knife. SawStop, of course, does as well.

2. It reinforces Paul Cresti's point: Grizzly is not an innovator -- they're just really good at copying and cost-reducing. For the most blatant (and to me offensive) example, look at their (Shop Fox) rip-off of the Williams & Hussey moulder.

[Michael Gabbay]

This is starting to look like one of the other forums with 12 page threads! :)

Dev - I have always appreciated your input to all of the tool posts. You have a great understanding of the old iron and most of the new as well as all of the manufacturing techniques used. I think Grizzly has jumped in to ward off a bashing that was not necessarily intended for them but rather FWW. If Bridgewood or Yorkcraft or Jet would have won I think your comments would still be the same. Keep up the good work!:)

[Donnie Raines]

Dev,

Some how....I trust...this thread has taken a diffrent path then what you had hope for. While I was one of the initial ones to say "detail of the test are not important"...but my intent was not to slap you or any other in the face that carry an apreciation for the sophitication that goes into a more detail testing method. My point, however, was to say look...I would'nt no what the results meant if all I had was a bunch of numbers to digest. I want to cut to the chase and see the end results. Frankly, I have never bought a tool that I have not tried prior to buying. That way...it is I that made the choice to buy the tool...not some review...regardless of how the test was performed.

On a lighter note...my observation has been proven on a few occassion in this thread: those that seek the greater details of a test have been engineers....or some type of techy......:rolleyes: :p :D :D :D

[Shiraz Balolia]

Alden - Sorry to hear of your experience. Maybe it's too late, but I will check order notes to see what happened . In the meantime, if you still need assistance, feel free to PM me.

Mike - do go to Muncy. Even if you do not buy anything, it's a big toy store!

Alan & Frank - actually working on it.

Dev - You obviously know machine tools. Most people have never even seen a metal shaper. I have actually used one, and still see them on and off in some factories, just chugging away. They are true workhorses.

Others - many thanks for your warm welcome and encouraging comments.

Yet others - cannot win them all.

[Frank Pellow]

Sorry to pick on your quote, Frank, but I think it bears out two points...

1. Mr. Balolia's few posts here have already planted marketing seeds that are sprouting. The truth is Powermatic already ships a traditional American-style 10" cabinet saw with a riving knife. SawStop, of course, does as well.

Shiraz did not promise a riving knife. Rather, it was Alan Turner, who knowing that was reading this thread suggested that Grizzly should consider changing their table saw design to support a riving knife. I welcome the technical participation of vendors on this forum so that we can discuss such requirements with them.

I knew about SawStop's (and even Ryobi's) support of a riving knife, but not about Powermatic's. That is great and I hope that they start a trend!





2. It reinforces Paul Cresti's point: Grizzly is not an innovator -- they're just really good at copying and cost-reducing. For the most blatant (and to me offensive) example, look at their (Shop Fox) rip-off of the Williams & Hussey moulder.
It does appear that you are correct and that Grizzly is not an innovator. But, it does appear that they are finally becoming a good implementer, and that matters too.

[Donnie Raines]

gents....might I suggest that we step back, take a deep breath and gather ourselves. We are all entilted to our views on things, but this one seems to be venturing off the initial purpose of Dev's intent.

I am no one around here....just hopeing to calm the waters....;) :)

[Frank Pellow]

gents....might I suggest that we step back, take a deep breath and gather ourselves. We are all entilted to our views on things, but this one seems to be venturing off the initial purpose of Dev's intent.

I am no one around here....just hopeing to calm the waters....;) :)
Donnie, sure it's venturing off the initial purpose. But, what wrong with that? Often, a thread that takes a life of its own is the best kind of thread. Most of what people are contributing to this thread is quite worthwhile and, I believe, that the vast majority of the contributions are quite polite and civilized.

[David Pettibone]

Mike I don't think you were saying any such thing. I also never said or implied that a $1,000 jointer would last up to 8 hours of work a day. I actually said just the opposite if you re-read my post. If you or anyone else doesn't mind fiddling with a $1,000 jointer, that is your choice, but it should not be a prerequisite to owning a jointer. Believe me, the average guy, including myself, does not have the skills or knowledge to be buying a jointer and be constantly figuring out why the fence won't stay at 90 degrees. Would you expect to be constantly fiddling with your tablesaw fence everytime you went to make a cut. You might, and that is fine for you, but I sure wouldn't and I wouldn't pay over $1,000 and accept it.

Lou, I make laminate countertops for a living and with all due respect to you and your vast knowledge, your comparsion doesn't fly. Countertops are charged by the linear foot where I live. It doesn't matter if you buy a vanity from me or a kitchen as I just installed yesterday. Yes, there are little fluctuations in tops based off cut-outs, templating, radii, premium laminate, etc.... I would never be in a position to explain to a customer why this top costs you $15,000 and this guy only paid $1,000, not for laminate versus laminate. Your not comparing apples to apples. Heck, the job that I just did yesterday was exactly $1,050. The gentleman had a granite quote of $4,800. Now that IS something that I could stand back and say this is why he quoted you this much for granite and why I charged you this for laminate. Yes, they are both countertops, but there is a huge difference in the type of material used and how it is fabricated (price of machinery used), etc... That is a $3,750 dollar difference and there is a reason why. It's not just personal preference. If you put a hot pan on one of my countertops, you'll be buying a new countertop or living with the burn marks left by the pot. With granite it's quite different. Your welcome to my shop anytime your in my neck of the woods. I sincerely welcome you to bring a jointed piece of wood and I will show you my jointed wood. If your eyes can detect the difference between my 2 boards after being put together, and your boards, then you have super human powers that I obviously lack.

Yes, there are obvious differences between a $16k machine and a $1,000 machine, and as I already stated, there better be. If you think I wasn't aware of the differences, you misunderstood me. Again, for the average woodworker, those differences do not justify the price in any way, shape or form. I was at a woodworking school 2 years ago and got to use one of those beasts. The teacher agreed with me when I said the results are the same in the end and that no one NEEDS these big machines to produce better results. If you can afford it Lou, God Bless You and have fun using it. I don't eny or covet those machines and I am more than happy to produce what I do with what I have. The finish on a Powermatic tablesaw is amazing. Should I pay almost $1,000 more for that finish? Does it cut better than my tablesaw? If money is no object, then rock on dude. But in the end I will get my cuts and edges just as straight as you and that is not arrogance, it is a fact.

Lou, I don't like getting into these back and forth things, but you said you couldn't understand my reasoning, so I responded to help you understand better of what I was saying. I have no problem admitting you and Mike are WAY smarter than I am. I've read your posts in the last 6 months and I defer to you 99% of the time. What I have stated is my personal opinion on this particular subject, and that's all it is. You guys disagree and as I've stated and that's fine. I knew I'd be in the minority. Take care!!!!!!

Gratefully, David

[Donnie Raines]

Donnie, sure it's venturing off the initial purpose. But, what wrong with that? Often, a thread that takes a life of its own is the best kind of thread. Most of what people are contributing to this thread is quite worthwhile and, I believe, that the vast majority of the contributions are quite polite and civilized.

I am all for a good hearty debate...so long as it is on topic. This thread started off as way of critiquing a tool review...with folks talking about whats important to them....and whats not. Some how it has grown into a thread on what brand name is the best....and that was not the point of Dev's critique(though I hate to speak for Dev.....). Just the overall vibe does not feel healthy to me...thats all. I can pick that up from some of the various post that have been made.

Again, a good debate is healthy...one that becomes more personal is not.

[Richard Niemiec]

Shiraz, I for one appreciate your willingness to participate here, as insights by folks like you and Robin Lee of Lee Valley (who I see routinely on rec.woodworking) are most welcome. While I have owned several of your products (contractor's saw and 6" jointer) and was more than completely satisfied with them, I must admit I did buy a DJ-20 :) when I upgraded to 8" several years ago, but I do have my eye on your G1026 shaper.

I also congratulate you on your Muncey, PA store; I was there recently and it is quite a place and well worth the trip; I also dropped about $400 into the registers and was happy to do so. Keep up the good work, and I wish you future success. Rich Niemiec.

[Mike Cutler]

I am all for a good hearty debate...so long as it is on topic. This thread started off as way of critiquing a tool review...with folks talking about whats important to them....and whats not. Some how it has grown into a thread on what brand name is the best....and that was not the point of Dev's critique(though I hate to speak for Dev.....). Just the overall vibe does not feel healthy to me...thats all. I can pick that up from some of the various post that have been made.

Again, a good debate is healthy...one that becomes more personal is not.

Excellent point!

In the end it all comes down to the tools that we all got for free. Hands to guide the work, eyes to see the process, and an imagination to see beyond a board leaning against the wall in a lumber rack.

[Bob Aquino]

1. We don't need more manufacturer advertising/PR/subliminal messaging whatever you want to call it. This quote in this thread, directed to Mr. Balolia says it all in my humble opinion...The man has a web site, mails out umpteen gillion catalogs per year, gets free coverage of his press releases in every WW magazine out there and it's near impossible to pick-up a magazine without some Grizzly product being reviewed in it (esp. now that FWW has joined the bandwagon!). WE DON'T NEED IT HERE, TOO! What next, invite in reps from Delta, Powermatic, MiniMax, SawStop, etc. so they can get equal air time?

3. I will choose my words carefully here... I value the community spirit on this forum and the free exchange of ideas and opinions without discussions devolving into bashing and personal attacks. Mr. Balolia has demonstrated on at least one other forum that he has little patience for those who do not "appreciate" his company's products and services. In a thread on another forum (with user "handles" in lieu of real names) he became so agitated with a member who posted his dissatisfaction with Grizzly's products and services that he searched through his company's database to identify the forum member and then proceeded to post the member's full name and home address -- ON A PUBLIC FORUM. This action not only flies in the face of generally accepted internet courtesies, but also defies all basic tenents of business and personal ethics. I think it also makes other members think twice before posting negative experiences with his company (coincidence?). I most certainly hope this practice of does not follow Mr. Balolia here...

4. Mr. Balolia's participation on another forum has turned it into a mini-Grizzly help line -- "Papa Grizz can you check on my order?", "Papa Grizz why do you use XYZ Trucking Co?", "Papa Grizz when is the new bandsaw fence shipping?" We don't need that here, too.

From what I've heard, Mr. Balolia is a very talented woodworker/luthier. If he wants to post and share about his craft, great! But, leave the business hat in the office, please. Should the prevailing sentiment of the forum decide differently, may I suggest that at the very least, this sub-forum be split into two -- one for Woodworking and one for Power Tools -- as other forums have done. That way those of us interested in reading woodworking discussions need not wade through the myriad "Papa Grizz please help me" posts.

Bill
As a 20+ year woodworker who regularly frequents Woodnet, Knots and Sawmill Creek ( and used to read Badger Pond and The Oak), I am familiar with PapaGriz on woodnet as well as the reps from Freud, WMH and awhile back Delta. Most of the discussions on any of these boards in regards to woodworking machinery ultimately ends up resting on different brands and everybodies likes and dislikes of those brands. Having people who work for these manufacturers (or the President himself) be willing to take the time and converse with us about the good and bad things that happen to their machines is PRICELESS! I wouldnt call PappaGriz's responses here "Marketing" as much as "Market Research" or "Customer Involvement". If people treat their involvement in these forums as a shortcut to getting their answers then so what? Truely, that is why we participate in these forums in the first place.
As for the incident you mentioned, yeah, I am aware of it, followed it as it happened. Wasn't his best moment, but he's human just like the rest of us. Didn't stop him from continuing to participate. Good for him.
For PappaGriz, a big Thank You. But if I can grab your attention for one second, let me tell you my biggest issue with buying Griz, I CANT TOUCH IT. I dont live anywhere near one of your showrooms and I like to be able to look at the equipment I buy beforehand. That and if there are issues that need to be fixed then it can turn into a huge hassel with trying to get parts to fix it. If it is a major part or problem, then I would be hesitant to want to play the repairman since I feel that new equipment should not require the owner to have to dissassemble it to make it work. If your company is not thinking along these lines, perhaps it might be worth it to investigate starting outlet stores in some of the major markets where folks could see your stuff up close. Couple on the east coast, couple on the west and some in the middle. Maybe even a franchise operation like WoodCraft or perhaps you could sell you tools through woodcraft or another retail operation.

For Dev, also a big Thank You. I agree that your original post was focused on the way FWW did the review and not so much on Griz itself, but it has furthered the discussion which is always helpful. You also focus on what is important to look at as opposed to just quoting tolerance numbers.

[Mark Singer]

All of this seems amusing to me...I wish we were all so pasionate about design and building things as we are about who is making the best machines. I love fine tools as well as anyone...I just remember watching my Father cutting a board with his old Distton....sweating and enjoying it...in the end the project was great and original! We did the best with what we had (which wasn"t much)....I really don't care much about thousanths of an inch...I am not planning to send my cabinets to the moon , I am not building a space shuttle if my work looks a bit hand built.....that is a good thing... :confused:

By comparison there hasn't been a single post in the Design Forum for 24 hours! What do you think would improve your woodworking more...a better design, ....or which jointer you use?

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Well, the discussion has deviated widely from the initial post of what a crappy review FWW did on 8" jointers. But it has been an interesting read and I for one have enjoyed every twist, turn and knot of the thread. I hope the moderators don't feel the need to end it just because a few of the turns became a "you said--no I did not" kinda exchange. One of the problems (and sometimes its an advantage) with the internet is that you don't have the face-to-face interaction you would have in person. You don't see the facial expressions or have the opportunity to immediately clear up misunderstandings.

We need to remember a few things. First of all, FWW is not a scientific journal and they don't need to be. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to grab a few jointers and figure out which ones operate the best or which ones are the best value. They are rarely the same in most cases.

Second, my needs and more importantly, my desires, lead me to buy the tools I do. Get 100 people together and 80 think I'm an idiot for buying what I bought. Half think I spent way too much money when a much cheaper tool would have sufficied in my home shop. The other half can't believe I think I can do any work with such a cheap machine. Different strokes for different folks.

Third, its kinda nice to have a manufacturer chime in when there are obvious mistatement of fact in our posts. Its another story when they repeated and aggressively defend their products or interact in a way that doesn't fit with the forum rules.

Lastly, factually stating your bad (or good) experiences with a machine is not wrong although it sometimes leads to general and unsubstantiated claims of poor or good quality. Quality changes over time, machines that used to be good decline and other manufacturers improve. It happens.

I believe in freedom of speech under all circumstances where no one is hurt by what is said. That doesn't mean I condone coarse language or personal attacks, but it does mean that you have the right to say things that I vehemently disagree with. I always cringe when I see one of the rank and file call for a thread to be closed by the moderator because they don't like the tone of what is being said. You always have the option of not reading any thread you don't like.

PM me if you want to hear about my latest trip to HD:-)

[Jay Knoll]

Well this has certainly been an interesting thread, and the kind we need more of.

Where else would be get access to the kinds of experience/knowledge presented here?

Dev's comments represent, to me, experience and technical knowledge unbaised by any economic interest (unless I missed something and there is a stealth sale lurking in there somewhere).

I've certainly learned a lot from his thoughts and the responses of others here in the forum, and am especially pleased that the tone of this thread has been civil and respective of other viewpoints.

It took me awhile to figure out who was speaking for Grizzly -- perhaps we should suggest that people who work for companies idenfity themselves when they speak for their firms?


Jay

[David Fried]

I've been very happy with my Grizzly 15" planer for the past couple of years. It's been a real work horse so I'm glad I didn't get a lunch box planer for the same money (the grizzly was on sale).

I've been wanting to upgrade the used Sears 6" jointer I bought for $150 but even with my good planer experience I was still leary of buying more grizzly.

I got my FWW on a Friday and read the review over the weekend. I went out to the grizzly web site and found the jointer in the review was on sale for $695. This is a little more than my usual $500 limit on tools but I went for it. It shipped on Monday and arrived on Tuesday. It took a couple of days to get it assembled and degreased but yesterday I was able to run my first boards over it and what a joy! A local artist needed 24 picture frames and showed up with 16 foot Oak 2x8s. We cut them down on the mitre saw, ran them over the jointer and through the planer. They had been air dried in a barn for years and looked horrible but came out looking great.

As usual I agree with with Dev but a grizzly is better than nothing or even a 40 year old tiny Sears. I expect when I upgrade in couple years I will be able to get most of my money out of it and move on. In the mean time I will learn what I like and don't like and have a better idea what I want next time. (Something bigger and heavier - I 'll call Lou for a hand moving it :D )

[Steve Wargo]

You mean they make jointers with motors? :eek:

[lou sansone]

Mike I don't think you were saying any such thing. I also never said or implied that a $1,000 jointer would last up to 8 hours of work a day. I actually said just the opposite if you re-read my post. If you or anyone else doesn't mind fiddling with a $1,000 jointer, that is your choice, but it should not be a prerequisite to owning a jointer. Believe me, the average guy, including myself, does not have the skills or knowledge to be buying a jointer and be constantly figuring out why the fence won't stay at 90 degrees. Would you expect to be constantly fiddling with your tablesaw fence everytime you went to make a cut. You might, and that is fine for you, but I sure wouldn't and I wouldn't pay over $1,000 and accept it.

Lou, I make laminate countertops for a living and with all due respect to you and your vast knowledge, your comparsion doesn't fly. Countertops are charged by the linear foot where I live. It doesn't matter if you buy a vanity from me or a kitchen as I just installed yesterday. Yes, there are little fluctuations in tops based off cut-outs, templating, radii, premium laminate, etc.... I would never be in a position to explain to a customer why this top costs you $15,000 and this guy only paid $1,000, not for laminate versus laminate. Your not comparing apples to apples. Heck, the job that I just did yesterday was exactly $1,050. The gentleman had a granite quote of $4,800. Now that IS something that I could stand back and say this is why he quoted you this much for granite and why I charged you this for laminate. Yes, they are both countertops, but there is a huge difference in the type of material used and how it is fabricated (price of machinery used), etc... That is a $3,750 dollar difference and there is a reason why. It's not just personal preference. If you put a hot pan on one of my countertops, you'll be buying a new countertop or living with the burn marks left by the pot. With granite it's quite different. Your welcome to my shop anytime your in my neck of the woods. I sincerely welcome you to bring a jointed piece of wood and I will show you my jointed wood. If your eyes can detect the difference between my 2 boards after being put together, and your boards, then you have super human powers that I obviously lack.

Yes, there are obvious differences between a $16k machine and a $1,000 machine, and as I already stated, there better be. If you think I wasn't aware of the differences, you misunderstood me. Again, for the average woodworker, those differences do not justify the price in any way, shape or form. I was at a woodworking school 2 years ago and got to use one of those beasts. The teacher agreed with me when I said the results are the same in the end and that no one NEEDS these big machines to produce better results. If you can afford it Lou, God Bless You and have fun using it. I don't eny or covet those machines and I am more than happy to produce what I do with what I have. The finish on a Powermatic tablesaw is amazing. Should I pay almost $1,000 more for that finish? Does it cut better than my tablesaw? If money is no object, then rock on dude. But in the end I will get my cuts and edges just as straight as you and that is not arrogance, it is a fact.

Lou, I don't like getting into these back and forth things, but you said you couldn't understand my reasoning, so I responded to help you understand better of what I was saying. I have no problem admitting you and Mike are WAY smarter than I am. I've read your posts in the last 6 months and I defer to you 99% of the time. What I have stated is my personal opinion on this particular subject, and that's all it is. You guys disagree and as I've stated and that's fine. I knew I'd be in the minority. Take care!!!!!!

Gratefully, David

peace my friend ... no offence meant. sorry I chose the counter top metaphor ... maybe something else would have been better. I think we both understand the point that you do get what you pay for. I was reacting to what I see some folks thinking that a jointer is a jointer and quibbling about some little casting defect or plastic handle that is low budget when they bought a low cost machine in the first place! I don't spend a lot on my machines because I buy them used ( and sometimes in need of repair). For me this has allowed me to sort of have my cake and eat it to..


have a nice day
lou

[Donnie Raines]

Well this has certainly been an interesting thread, and the kind we need more of.

Where else would be get access to the kinds of experience/knowledge presented here?

Dev's comments represent, to me, experience and technical knowledge unbaised by any economic interest (unless I missed something and there is a stealth sale lurking in there somewhere).

I've certainly learned a lot from his thoughts and the responses of others here in the forum, and am especially pleased that the tone of this thread has been civil and respective of other viewpoints.

It took me awhile to figure out who was speaking for Grizzly -- perhaps we should suggest that people who work for companies idenfity themselves when they speak for their firms?


Jay

For me, it was not that i thought Dev was bias....that was not a thought for me. It was simply a matter of how people view these reviews in diffrent ways. I like them simple...I don't have all of the specility tools(like the majority) to test my stuff, so I respond better to reviews more in-line with the means by which I would test. Dev obviously likes to be more refined then I. I did point out, however, that jointers are pretty simple machine(jointer being used in this example per Dev) and that once they are set up properly...what more is there? Thats all...I never felt that Dev was being bias per say.

[Scott Coffelt]

Here we go again folks.....all I have heard so far from Dev is ... I know a lot about tools and my opinion is........ then a new manufacturer (to this site) comes in and says blah....blah....blah...advertisement....blah...bla h....advertisement.....

The good thing about this forum is it was free of companies trying to defend themselves or promote their products. Remember why I disagreed before? In all fairness to that hard working individual I felt the same should be said now also. Lets keep this site to guys/gals talking about tools, woodworking and design.


Paul,

I respectfully disagree with you. What I was reading was basically one sided from Dev. It was nice to have PG join us. I recall we have another person who represents a mfr here and he does a great job of answering when asked or clarifying. We have another who spends any chance he can promoting. I don't see the post by PG as a promotional play. He was as I read providing facts, and in his own words shocked that the product got top honors... not because it shouldn't but becuase of the history. Now, if he comes on every time a promotes his products then I see a problem here. Right now I don't. Heck, sure would be nice if the writer from FWW came on here and gave his point of view. In general, I think there are folks here who just don't like Grizzly and anything good said or written about them must be a lie. I'll be more than happy to tell you I think some of their products are great and others just are poorly built. I am totally satisfied with my G1023S and G0513, not so with my 12" disk sander. When I have the funds I will be all over the G0586, unless I find a killer deal on a DJ20.

[Byron Trantham]

All of this seems amusing to me...I wish we were all so pasionate about design and building things as we are about who is making the best machines. I love fine tools as well as anyone...I just remember watching my Father cutting a board with his old Distton....sweating and enjoying it...in the end the project was great and original! We did the best with what we had (which wasn"t much)....I really don't care much about thousanths of an inch...I am not planning to send my cabinets to the moon , I am not building a space shuttle if my work looks a bit hand built.....that is a good thing... :confused:

By comparison there hasn't been a single post in the Design Forum for 24 hours! What do you think would improve your woodworking more...a better design, ....or which jointer you use?
Mark, I couldn't agree more. I wasn't going to step into this thread but your input just hit home. I recently visited a fellow woodworker. He is a friend of my son-in-law. I was a little apprehensive about the visit - better this or that. Anyway he had just finished a partner's desk with two large radius's and edge banded (bent) with wood - 3/4" wide. The the formica to edge joint was very tight and smooth. Now the kicker - he has an OLD cabinet saw I never heard of and a PC 690 router!!!!! That's about it. I was humbled. I have a reasonably outfitted shop but I would have fussed over those radius's big time. Not him, he built a router protractor, created a fairly complex glue up and routed the edge bands with great accuracy!
Tools smools, if the grey matter isn't hitting on all cylinders, no amount of tools will compensate!;)

[JayStPeter]

I personally enjoy having reps from different companies on the forums. I've had Rob Lee reply to my pidly problems learning to use handplanes. His previews and hints of things to come are very enjoyable reading. I'll admit, I'm a tool junkie and I like inside info.
On the other hand, if a company rep disrupts completely separate threads with advertisements it crosses a line.

I hope that Mr. Balolia hangs around here. I would love to see his techniques for the fantastic inlays he does on the guitars in his catalog. And heck, an occasional hint of a new product or upcoming sale isn't so bad either.

Jay

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bryon and Mark I agree with what you are saying. We had a old gentleman here in town that just passed away at 94. He built house all his life in town here. He had a crew that dug the basements, frame the house and completed the inside. But while his crew was at work he would be at his shop building the kitchen cabinets and built in entertainment centers out of any wood you wanted for the houses he built. They were absolutely beautiful. I mean a work of art. People would wait as long as 2 years to have him build their homes. I was amazed when I got to see his shop. He had a old no name cabinet saw that you would have thought had to be held together with #9 wire, a couple of old routers (I think one was PC and the other was DeWalt), a old no name shaper, some planes and a old router table he had made he said about 55 yrs ago. One thing I did noticed is he had all kinds of jigs he had built for what the tools he had.

The one time I was visiting with him about woods and tools, he said boy it don't make any difference if you have a $100 saw or a $15000 saw, "It's not the quality of the tool being used, it's the skills and expertise of the person using the tool that really matters." If ya can't use and understand the tool it don't matter how much money you spend. He said cut everything 1/8" oversize and work it down from there. It ain't rocket science.

I think he was right. I think we put to much into .001" and .0001". Like Bryon said, "if the grey matter ain't working" it doesn't make any difference.

[Steve Clardy]

Bryon and Mark I agree with what you are saying. We had a old gentleman here in town that just passed away at 94. He built house all his life in town here. He had a crew that dug the basements, frame the house and completed the inside. But while his crew was at work he would be at his shop building the kitchen cabinets and built in entertainment centers out of any wood you wanted for the houses he built. They were absolutely beautiful. I mean a work of art. People would wait as long as 2 years to have him build their homes. I was amazed when I got to see his shop. He had a old no name cabinet saw that you would have thought had to be held together with #9 wire, a couple of old routers (I think one was PC and the other was DeWalt), a old no name shaper, some planes and a old router table he had made he said about 55 yrs ago. One thing I did noticed is he had all kinds of jigs he had built for what the tools he had.

The one time I was visiting with him about woods and tools, he said boy it don't make any difference if you have a $100 saw or a $15000 saw, "It's not the quality of the tool being used, it's the skills and expertise of the person using the tool that really matters." If ya can't use and understand the tool it don't matter how much money you spend. He said cut everything 1/8" oversize and work it down from there. It ain't rocket science.

I think he was right. I think we put to much into .001" and .0001". Like Bryon said, "if the grey matter ain't working" it doesn't make any difference.


Right on!!!!!!;) :)

[Andrew Ault]

Ideally, when I'm 94, I'd like to...well, anything.

My grandpa just turned 96 and he's the KING of making do with what he's got. I did a load of laundry at his house Sunday after his birthday and I noticed that his dryer door has a wooden latch added to it because the original one is kaput. He did a nice job of it too - worked perfectly and had a nice shape. Out in his garage are jars of old screws and things patched together with tin cans and wire. Everything works. I made a little list of things to take him next time, but if I give him something he thinks I'm nuts.

Anyway, the idea of working in my shop in my nineties is a very warm thought. Ideally, I'd keep my best tools in a back room so when punk kids came to bug me they would see me making a perfect highboy using a few old worn-out tools and some broken glass. :p

I refuse to buy a good quality tool until I master (well, get proficient with) the old crumby one I already have. Also, I love to make a tool. I've cut out the parts for a Smalser coping saw and can't wait to finish it. I used to treat my tools like they were kind of precious, but now I just take care of them so they work well and will not need to be replaced. I'm going to modify my Beisemeyer fence so it's easier to attach things to it. I wanted one so long that at first I didn't want to mar it. But, now I don't care. I just want it to work the way I'd like it to. One of my favorite woodworking tools is an old autobody mallet that looks like it fell off a speeding truck and got ran over a couple of times. It works just right for banging things together or apart and I put every mark on it since I bought it in high school.

I have a 6" jointer and I get good use out of it. Boy, a wider one would be great, but the one I have, I appreciate. I happen to like Grizzly tools and if I were to buy a NEW jointer, it would probably be a Grizzly. But, I'd prefer to get a good used jointer to save a few bucks, if I could.

I enjoyed the FWW article and the video on their site. I thought it was pretty useful because I don't get to try out various machines.

I appreciate the civility and tolerance generally shown here.

From the lower left corner of the USA,
Andy

PS: MAN, I CANNOT WAIT FOR THIS WEEKEND!

[Paul Spiegel]

I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but I couldn't let this thread pass without commenting on how much I've gotten out of the information posted within. It's been very informative (and mildly entertaining.) Most important, it's been largely without rancor. I've learned a lot on a number of related issues (reviews, Griz, tolerances, etc.) I'm looking forward to learning even more on this board.

Thanks,
Paul

[Dev Emch]

How I do love this thread! This is one of the best threads in a long time!

To move things, if only for a little bit, back to the main core thread. My original post had more to do with method and drawing a potential wrong conclusion than anything else. Be it for better or worse, the grizz jointer happened to be the winner. Please understand that I would have been equally harse if an oliver or porter jointer had won!

Yes, I have followed some of Shiraz' anticks in the past. I am not sure that they are germain to the thread but let me say this. It is not a good idea for Papa Grizz to storm onto a new forum like a Bull in a China shop and violate internet protocols. The good thing is that should papa grizz misbehave, this forum will have the brass to hold him responsible. We have a one man, one vote policy here. Often folks who complain have a boat anchor in the shop which is the source of that constrenation. And that brings me to my next point.

My negative experiences with grizzly were on both a jointer and a metal lathe. Folks have mentioned that its O.K. to tinker with a 600 dollar machine out of the box but they expect a 1000 dollar machine to be spit and polish perfect. I personally believe that a new machine is just that, new. Looks new, smells new and PERFORMS new. What do you call it when your "tinkering" results in tearing the machine down to its bare parts and rebuilding it? Remachining and scrapeing to obtain actual accuracy? Swaping out bearings for more expensive and precise bearings? This was a brand new machine! I sincerely hope if you guys understand that I am Gun Shy here.

Another thought did pop into my mind. Pappa Griz was nice enough to tell us the background story of Grizzly's relationship with FWW. That it has not always been a nice one and that he had no choice but to pull the advertising. He did complain about how Delta always won in the old days and that FWW was pitting 500 dollar machines against 2000 dollar machines.

Could this have been the main reason why FWW began putting upper price limits on its machine tests? That is more a statement of how FWW agreed with Grizzly than anything else. What I did notice was that the older tests included generals made in canada and they often won the best overall and best fit and finish criteria. So common sense would dictate that you have a problem here. The upper sprectrum of this class of machine can only dominate year after year if they are doing it right. If you are selling a machine for 500 dollars, common sense dictates that you had to trim away a few things to meet this price level. Now of course, the alter ego argument would have it that the price difference between the upper crust and the lower crust is due to the elimination of the middle layers of the distribution network. Sure, that would amount for some of the price difference. No agruments here. But, by no means all of it.

Remember that labor is also an issue. US labor costs more. But as I have said, the DJ jointers, for example, have been made in taiwan for so many years that I cannot remember otherwise, if at all. So the implication here is that the middle men and mother corporation are racking in the difference.... in our case, (2000 - 500) or a total of 1500 dollars in pure juicy profit. This assumes that the machines are design wise equal made in the same overseas manufacturing process. One might be blue and the other gray.

Do you guys believe this? Or do think that delta actually upgraded the parts, fit and finish, design and machine shop work to make a machine slightly better than the norm (no pun intended).

I believe the latter. Machines like the general 480 and the delta DJ-20 have always had a bit more old school design and work in them. The corallary to this statement is that they are need of some "Value Engineering" or "Cost Engineering" to use modern business school terminology.

So what does one do here. Do you leave out these machines because the average reader demographic will not pay the difference? Magaines like FWW have marketed themselves as the top magaine for years. And their layout and print work shows this. Its a more upper crust type rag than some of the others. So many readers will want the generals and DJs to be listed in the reviews. But it becomes a forgone conclusion as to who will win. To quote a popular Gin advertisement.... "You wouldn't enter a donkey in the Kentucky Derby would you. I am Tony Sinclair and that's how you Tangerray". So I dont believe that the older tests in which Delta and General and the older Powermatic were always on top were rigged by personal bias. They were simply put, the best of the best in this class. Had Delta or Powermatic or General gone up against the likes of Martin, Oliver, Newman or Porter, they would be have been destroyed and sent home with their tail between their legs.

So does the same agrument hold for limiting the Olivers and Newmans and Porters from competing here? I dont know. These were full bore industrial machines and the Deltas and Generals and Matics were in the gray zone. They were both industrial and hobbyist.

But what about advertisment? I am certain that the loss of Grizzly's advertisement revenue has become a sore topic of late at FWW. One look at the full page spreads in Home Shop Machinist or Woodworkiing or Popular Woodworking suggests that some serious coin is going to support these! So is it possible that FWW has a bit of motivation to heal the wounds of the past with Grizzly? After all, the general 480 has not been listed in any significant review in FWW lately. They may counter with the fact that our demographic is not the general buying crowd. I read FWW and I have bought not one but a few generals. Does that make me chopped liver?

So all this takes us right back to the starting point. Where does a woodworker, esp. one new to the hobby, go to find objective, accurate and above all else, complete reviews on woodworking machines?

Should the reviews be broken down into three classes? Industrial, Serious Hobbyist and Conventional? And who determines the rules of membership to these classes? Clearly, by the overwelming response to this thread, the review process is broke and in need of repair. Its the savy woodworker who looks at the review to see the pruuurdy pictures and glazes over the content. And as BIll has said, this type of topic only needs a few drops of kerosene.....

[Donnie Raines]

Dev,

It seems to me that in some other reviews, likely by another mag that I read with some degree of regularity, they determine categories by price range.....250-500, 500-750 so on and so forth. Pulling a name brand out and saying it is for more advance woodworkers(insert the word industrial here maybe) may show even more bias then some feel is genrated now.

IMHO, breaking it down by price is a fair way of doing it....as always..I am sure some exceptions apply.

[Dev Emch]

Points well taken. But I am an advocate of fairness. A review of say a martin jointer is of value because it educates the overall masses and shows them things that many might not have an opportunity to learn about. It creates a better educated consumer. Car companies build race cars to learn how to build cars. In time, what they learn on the track gets incorporated into the everyday economy car.

[Donnie Raines]

Points well taken. But I am an advocate of fairness. A review of say a martin jointer is of value because it educates the overall masses and shows them things that many might not have an opportunity to learn about. It creates a better educated consumer. Car companies build race cars to learn how to build cars. In time, what they learn on the track gets incorporated into the everyday economy car.

One of the first things that came to mind was a tabke saw review. We can all agree that if a saw is set up properly, we can cut a staright line...with a fairly clean edge. But, the trick comes when you adjust the fence for a diffrent cut...or raise/lower the blade...maybe even tilt the blade for a certain cut. What happens when you do this?....does the fence square back up..without needing re-adjustment? Does the blade raise and lower smoothly....how easy does it tilt?...are you fighting it the wntire way or does it smoothly find its place at the correct angle you desire??

To me, a table saw is a tool that one would expect a more detailed review. Simply becuase you do change the settings so often you want it to be reliable. A jointer, again, is not adjusted nearly as often, thus, the need for such a precise review is not needed(again..in my view). Again, this is a general statement but that was where my thinking was from on-set of this thread.

[Gary Sutherland]

Regarding Shiraz's comments/hints about new products....

The statements he made all seemed to be in response to comments or questions by forum members:

Andrew : “Now just a little bug in your ear... There was a recent post about a competitor's jointer/planer being marketed in Europe at a good price. I would really, really like a 12" jointer/planer that I could afford.”

Jay: “I'll second Andrews request for a 12" euro style jointer/planer at a Grizzly price.”

Bernie: “Thanks again for the info and hope you will keep us informed when new equipment comes out and more info on your other equipment.”

Dev: “If grizz came out with a version of the DJ-20 with their own smell on it, my hat would be off to them. If they make a good, clean machine with no issues, I could even buy one."

Rob: “I am in the market for an 8" jointer and was considering the G0500 but I heard that it was being discontinued and now can't find it on your website's list of jointers. I know you make the newer G0586 which people appear to be happy with--is that its replacement?”

To me, this seems quite reasonable, and very different from intiating a product discussion. If we (the forum) want to outlaw that kind of response, then I guess we should outlaw those kinds of questions. Personally, in the spirit of this thread, I like the informative responses. I'd personally like to know if any thought has been given to a "Euro/American" table saw: in the scale and price range of a good standard cabinet saw with aftermarket sliding table, but designed as a unit, so as to have some of the advantages of the Euro saws (like the sliding table right next to the blade, etc.). It seems like we're always admiring the Euro saws but lamenting that we (many, anyway) can't justify the price for hobbiest use.

Discussions like this might gain woodworkers some influence over what comes out next, which would be nice since we ususally only get to vote "with our wallets" after the product is released.

Oh, and I'll be glad to test drive any good, medium priced horizontal slot mortisers that come out!! (Does the HandyMan Club send out things like that, or only paint stirrers? :rolleyes: )


Another issue I'd like to hear some comments on is: I understand it's very difficult for American companies who manufacture domestically to compete in the consumer level of woodworking machines (low foreign labor, etc.), but WHY aren't we competing at the high end? Surely Felder, Martin etc. aren't paying "Chinese wages" to their employees, and yet they manage to sell product and prosper. Why can't, for example, Martin level woodworking machinery be built here? (Hmm...a B&D/Delta format saw :eek: ????) Maybe I'm just naive, feel free to say so if that's the case.

Gary

[John Hemenway]

Nice long thread and very interesting.

The comparison of any machines is always going to be difficult. The magazine has limitations that will determine which machines it chooses to test. They must determine expected audience for the article, space constraints, time and personnel limitations, etc. Now any review will not be all things to all people, but perhaps they can hit a winner with most of the readership.

Although I liked the review several years back of combo machines, I read it quickly and said, 'Cool. Wonder who would buy one of those?'. The recent jointer review (and video) I've reread several times because I might actually buy one of those soon. I'm not interested in arcane machinist (to me :) ) ways to measure flatness. What matters (to me) is considering it's intended purpose, does it do a good job?, is it reliable and easy to setup? and how much does it cost? I just want to use the tool and not pay an arm and a leg for it.

There is in any product line what I would call the trend to diminishing returns. Perhaps some examples...
Bicycling -- is a $2000 bike really that much better than a $500 one? I'm not asking if it's better, I'm asking if it's four times better. If I'm Lance Armstrong making lots of money racing bikes, perhaps I could notice the difference and the difference between one and the other is worth it. Is it worth it to me? NO WAY. Would I like to have the expensive bike? Maybe when I win the lotto. :)

Cars - is a $100,000 Porsche better than my $17,000 Toyota PU? In some ways yes but it cannot haul a yard of manure. Both will get me from A to B. Would I like to have the Porsche? You betcha! Who's got that winning lotto number for me? :)

Last week I went to a woodworking show. Frank Klaus demoed Felder. Very cool man and very cool tools. Would I buy a Felder? Well there is that lotto to hope for but in the meantime I'd rater put my kids thru school (I'm not a pro woodworker).

One other random thought - thanks for reading this far... The Felder/Hamer rep distinguished between the two lines of tools like this. Felder is designed for 10 hour/day shifts of use, Hamer for only 4. Since I'll never use either one close to that much, they would be an extravagance for me (lotto ? :) ) I do understand the joy of owning the best but the kids do have to go AWAY to college.

Oh Yea, anyone got 'sure thing' lotto numbers? :)

[Marc Langille]

Nice long thread and very interesting.

The comparison of any machines is always going to be difficult. The magazine has limitations that will determine which machines it chooses to test. They must determine expected audience for the article, space constraints, time and personnel limitations, etc. Now any review will not be all things to all people, but perhaps they can hit a winner with most of the readership.

Although I liked the review several years back of combo machines, I read it quickly and said, 'Cool. Wonder who would buy one of those?'. The recent jointer review (and video) I've reread several times because I might actually buy one of those soon. I'm not interested in arcane machinist (to me :) ) ways to measure flatness. What matters (to me) is considering it's intended purpose, does it do a good job?, is it reliable and easy to setup? and how much does it cost? I just want to use the tool and not pay an arm and a leg for it.

There is in any product line what I would call the trend to diminishing returns. Perhaps some examples...
Bicycling -- is a $2000 bike really that much better than a $500 one? I'm not asking if it's better, I'm asking if it's four times better. If I'm Lance Armstrong making lots of money racing bikes, perhaps I could notice the difference and the difference between one and the other is worth it. Is it worth it to me? NO WAY. Would I like to have the expensive bike? Maybe when I win the lotto. :)


Hi John,

I like your comparisons! FYI - those expensive bikes ARE much better. The materials are lighter, more durable, and simply a higher quality tool for the job. Obviously that type of tool carries subjectivity (acceleration, handling,and "road feel") in addition to the hard facts.

I speak from past personal experience of training and racing an average of 60-80 hours per month in my younger days... :)

Yes, I own a very expensive bike (the Orbea Orca), but once you're used to something of high quality, you generally don't want to "downgrade" in quality/price. People look at me and cannot believe the price (I didn't pay MSRP - I am on a sponsored team). There - I've confessed... :eek:

Of course now I'm ready to build a workshop and get out of the garage as soon as possible. This thread has been very informative for some of my machinery decision making!! Forgive me if I ramble...:rolleyes:

[Mike Cutler]

Hi John,

I like your comparisons! FYI - those expensive bikes ARE much better. The materials are lighter, more durable, and simply a higher quality tool for the job. Obviously that type of tool carries subjectivity (acceleration, handling,and "road feel") in addition to the hard facts.

I speak from past personal experience of training and racing an average of 60-80 hours per month in my younger days... :)

Yes, I own a very expensive bike (the Orbea Orca), but once you're used to something of high quality, you generally don't want to "downgrade" in quality/price. People look at me and cannot believe the price (I didn't pay MSRP - I am on a sponsored team). There - I've confessed... :eek:

Of course now I'm ready to build a workshop and get out of the garage as soon as possible. This thread has been very informative for some of my machinery decision making!! Forgive me if I ramble...:rolleyes:

Now here's a real can of worms. Bicycles:eek:
I also thought that John's analogy was good, although I have frames that sold for more than $2K. Sometimes I look at my bikes and think. That frame would buy me a new Laguna bandsaw, that pair of wheels could buy a new Unisaw. That Campy Gruppo in the box could get me a Powermatic Mortiser. etc.. etc..
John. Yes they can be 4 times better, at 50-60mph on a mountain descent in upstate New York, or Vermont. That 20mm's has to go exactly where you need it to go, or it's the ditch, and a broken collarbone for you. Gosh I miss racing:rolleyes:
It's funny the things that we choose to spend our cash on.;)

[markus shaffer]

Mr. Balolia

As has been stated by many others in this thread, I am glad you chimed in here.

First let me say that I think I was initial person who insinuated that the machines in the test were hand picked to be sent to FWW for the review. Your comments obviously refute that and I am happy to hear it. I take your word that you nor anyone from your company had any prior knowledge that your machine would be reviewed. I do still stand by my comment though. I do not know how the machines that get reviewed are obtained and thus cannot be certain that those machines reviewed are not hand selected and tuned.

Beyond that, you speak of your ongoing efforts to bring your quality control up to higher standards and that your company is relatively young. You somewhat admitted to the fact that there were quality issues in the past which you are doing your best to rectify. This is laudable and what I think all of us here on the forum like to see in a manufacturer. Given the fact that your company is so young, I think it fair you accept part of your "growing pains" will be to suffer people badmouthing your product especially if there were problems in the past. If your new quality control is as you claim, the reputation of your machinery will change over time. I personally have noticed more people happy with your machines than not thus I can only conclude that your efforts are paying off. Obviously the comments you've received here have been ovewhelmingly positive regarding your machines.

No matter what, there are always going to be people who will badmouth Brand X and say Brand Y is so much better. You can't win them all. As someone here stated, if you were to take a poll and ask people about tablesaw preferences, I think you would overwhelmingly get Powermatic 66 followed by Delta Unisaw. There is a reason why certain machines have gotten the reputations that they have. Relative to this thread, the DJ-20 is one of those machines. Is it any better than the comparable Grizzly? I don't know. I can comment on the DJ-20 as I had one for several years. It is a very good machine for the price. I bought it on the reputation that it had made for itself in the real world. Point being comes to something you pointed out with the reviews. The people at the magazine probably grew up on Delta and that's what they have stuck by. Unfair bias? Possibly. But in the end, if you build a better machine, word will spread and you will not have to spend your time in online forums such as this defending your products.

As someone who has built several instruments myself, I have, with great interest, noted that many of your machines are in use in quite a few notable luthier shops and large scale production facilities around the country. Given that I know what goes into making guitars on the level that I have produced them, I can certainly say that the machines in production shops need to be of a high caliber. Thus, if so many of the major manufacturers are using your machines, they should be good enough for the average shop. I think people knowing things like this does far more good for your reputation than any badmouthing does on this or any other forum.

I think you have a very unique opportunity with this forum as it is real people with real names who for the most part are open and honest with their commentary and do not hide behind screen names when they post. I believe that if you are interested in interacting with your client base on this level, you should take full advantage of it. I don't know that Grizzly outright copies the designs of others as has been insinuated here. Personally I think that if you're willing to interact at this level with people like the group here, you should accept that there will be naysayers but at the same time there will be those who can help you to further the success of your company. If you really want to make waves and have people start to look at Grizzly in a new light, consider the ideas thrown out there for an affordable combo machine. Figure out how to make an affordable slding panel saw for the average home shop. Embrace safety technology such as riving knives and the braking machanism on the Sawstop. To me, innovation such as this will gain the attention of your future clients and make Grizzly a company that people will be happy to buy from.

Think about the technology of the American cabinet saw. How old is that basic design? 70 years? (Dev?, Lou?) The average guy in this country wanting to buy a table aspires to own a PM66. Pretty much the same as his grandfather could have owned. I for one would never go back to the basic cabinet saw. Were Grizzly to come out with a saw comparable to my Felder with a braking machanism, the Felder might be in the classifieds. I think this goes along the lines of most woodworking machinery. The basic technology hasn't changed all that much over the years and what has seems to only be available on expensive industrial machines that are out of reach from the general consumer. Figure out ways to bring these innovations to the average garage shop and you'll be well on your way to getting rid of the negative commentary that you are hearing.

Once again, I apoligize for having insinuated that your company provided a "wringer" for the test in FWW. I am glad you set the record straight regarding that. Thank you again your coming on to enlighten us about your company and its practices. I realize you must be an incredibly busy person and thus it has been nice of you to make time to comment on our board.

-Markus

[Mike Vermeil]

All of this seems amusing to me...I wish we were all so pasionate about design and building things as we are about who is making the best machines. I love fine tools as well as anyone...I just remember watching my Father cutting a board with his old Distton....sweating and enjoying it...in the end the project was great and original! We did the best with what we had (which wasn"t much)....I really don't care much about thousanths of an inch...I am not planning to send my cabinets to the moon , I am not building a space shuttle if my work looks a bit hand built.....that is a good thing... :confused:

By comparison there hasn't been a single post in the Design Forum for 24 hours! What do you think would improve your woodworking more...a better design, ....or which jointer you use?

A-FLIPPING-MEN BROTHER!!! If you could see the things my grandfather built from metal with no milling machine and a converted treddle lathe, you'd never believe it.

I'm not a professional designer, & this may sound a little elitist, but by far the most common issue I have with much of what I see built by amatuer and professional woodworkers alike is poor design. I'm talking styling here, not about if it was proper to use double buscuits instead of mortise and tennon to attach the rear apron to the leg.

I haven't spent much time in the design forum lately due to a busy schedule, and lack of new topics on the forum, but from this point forward I'm going to make it a priority to get there more often. I'm really tiring of the same old arguments about brand names.

Mike

[John Hemenway]

Marc and Mike...

Well maybe $2K bikes are middle of the road now. It' been a while since I priced bikes. :) My point being most riders would not need or use the advantages of a high-end bike. Same for WW tools. Racers or high end riders will see and feel the difference, others won't. And finally, racers are looking for the easiest ride, I'm actually looking for a little more exercise!

Now I do recognize the cool factor of well made 'anything'. It's just a price/performance issue. I won't notice or can't take advantage of the performance and don't want to pay the price! :)

[Shiraz Balolia]

Gary S – Thank you for clarifying. The information I provided was in direct response to questions by other forum members. I am certain that should a lapse in judgement occur, on anyone’s part, the moderators would step in.

I have been a member of WoodNet Forum for about a year and many times members will post "Where can I buy such and such a widget?". Even though I know that we sell that item, I do not post a "we have it" response. I let the other forum members respond and sometimes Grizzly will be one of the names mentioned and sometimes not. So be it.

Markus – Thank you for an excellent post! At this point it does not matter who said what because clarifications have been made, courteous comments and apologies have been extended, and accepted. You are right about growing pains. If fact, there have been a few years where I have had to forcefully rein in growth just so that we could get our arms around the extra business that we were experiencing.

As far as bad-mouthing goes, I believe that time and a better understanding of our business will change whatever perceptions are left over. Just as editors of magazines as well as many consumers grew up with Delta, we have a new generation of woodworkers growing up with Grizzly. We sell a lot of machines to hundreds of schools around the country and we have seen that business grow in leaps and bounds because of our improved quality and the fact that they can purchase more products within their specified budgets. To that extent, twenty or thirty years from now this new generation of Grizzly users will, hopefully, dominate the marketplace.

Regarding some comments by other forum members about Grizzly being "copycats and not innovators". Really now! Just how many "innovations" have come to this industry lately? I can only name one – SawStop, and that, too, was mishandled by the innovator to the point of being available only from them. I do not want this discussion to turn into the merits of SawStop (there have been plenty of long discussions of the pros and cons of SawStop), but the point is that a table saw is a table saw. Adding a fancy patented miter gauge, like we have, does not classify as an innovation. Longer tables, different fences, a different type of up/down mechanism, do not classify as innovations. They are simply bells and whistles. The riving knife is not a recent innovation. It’s been around on sliding table saws for many, many years. However, when Powermatic comes out with it, "Hail Powermatic" is the chant. Grizzly talks about it on future saws and "Copycat" is the cry. Auto manufacturers routinely bring out features that their competitors introduce to the market. Lexus copies Mercedes, Mercedes copies Lexus and so on. In the end, the consumer is the beneficiary of this type of competition.

Of course, some of the naysayers have different agendas at being upset at Grizzly. Some claim we are exporting American jobs. Guess what – that’s old news. Just about all the major brands (Delta, Powermatic included) are made overseas. And what about the 350 plus jobs that we have created at Grizzly selling imported goods? Just where do these fit in within the "Exporting our Jobs" category?

Regarding magazine editors. There are numerous members of this forum that exceed the woodworking and mechanical evaluation skills of most editors of woodworking magazines. However, whilst their evaluations might seem rudimentary to some of us, the words in their articles are like "gospel" to many of their readers who are of different skill levels. Sometimes their articles are laced with personal favoritisms and I know of at least one editor that hasn’t quite grasped woodworking, but performs tool tests. Such are the curve balls thrown into some articles.

Several comments have been made about the combo planer/jointer. I will start a new thread regarding that.

Thanks,
Shiraz

[Frank Pellow]

...
Really now! Just how many "innovations" have come to this industry lately? I can only name one – SawStop
...
Thanks,
Shiraz
I am very surprised by this assertion.

Just look at the products designed by Dino Makropoulos and look at just about every product produced by Festool.

These are only two of many examples that I could site. They happen to by two very "popular" companies to talk about on Saw Mill Creek.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Hi Frank - actually I was thinking and talking about stationary machinery.

[Jack Easton]

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but isn't it about time this thread was moved to the off-topic section? It has definitely swayed from what got it started and is now starting to sound like some of the other forums out there. Maybe we should have another section where only the presidents of the manufacturers are allowed to duke it out over who does what, who steals from who and who has the biggest dog.
Just a little frustrated here. I won't check on this thread again, my way of voting by action.

[Craig Zettle]

I personally think this thread is GREAT! Read in to it what you want, I am thrilled Shiraz is participating. No other prez of a stationary machine co. has the guts to wade in.

[Frank Pellow]

I personally think this thread is GREAT! Read in to it what you want, I am thrilled Shiraz is participating. No other prez of a stationary machine co. has the guts to wade in.
I agree with you Craig. Long live this thread and may it continue to propsper!

[Keith Foster]

Gee - I thought I was the only Creeker who had ever mentioned "World Domination" in a post - and that was tongue in cheek. :cool:

As a member of the community let me express my appreciation for Mr. Balolia's participation in this thread. I feel his first hand insight into relationship between Grizzly, FWW, and the subsequent review process has helped to clarify conjectures listed in the original post. Let me further add that I feel a disservice is done to the community as a whole when we fail to allow or encourage the presentation of facts which are germane to the discussion at hand. Be they favorable to ones position or not.

[Andy Hoyt]

I'm thinking that someone from FWW ought to jump in and offer their two cent's worth, which is only fair. That will keep this thread going plenty.

And eventually Mr. Griz and Mr. FWW will have thoroughly hijacked the thread, allowing us to sit back and think of this thread as entertainment as they compare shoe sizes. Whereas the balance of the creek can remain educational.

[Marvin Keys]

Add me to the list of people who thinks that this thread is appropriate, on topic and I for one would love to see more participation by manufacturers. Then again, maybe I'm just hoping that the FreeStuff Drawings will restart with some big companies putting up some freebies. :)

[Paul B. Cresti]

No orginal improvements in stationary machinery? How about MiniMax's additons and improvements of the Centauro bandsaw to their line, improvements and more offerings in their line, How about Felder's offerings of the Format line, How about SCM's Vanguard EFSTS , In my opinion the Best Saw on the Market, or their new vanguard shaper, should I continue (these just some of the ones I know of off the top of my head)......... oh if you mean no one has found a way to cheaply make good clones of existing high end machinery then ok I agree.

Lets not get caught up in what you say and what you do...you are a machinery importer that is it....Nothing wrong with that just saying what you do. Yes you created jobs but how about the plants that were shut down due the cheaper out sourcing. You have found a niche, stay with it. Please do not start talking about woodworking innovations to us. One more thing please do not post on this board saying "I am not advertising" and then in a second statement say "oh by the way we have a new secret design coming out"

Obviously many people will feel differently and that is why our country is so great. We have freeedom of the press and freedom of speech which make this country what it is. I just do not like when people hide behind those rights for their own personal gains.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Paul - your post is illogical!

You quote brand names like SCM and Felder - very nice machines, but producing high-end machines does not qualify as innovations.

Further, you label us as "just an importer". Now, where exactly are Felder and SCM machines made?

Really, tit-for-tat postings are rather unbecoming, so you can go ahead and have the last word on this particular subject.

[Bill Simmeth]

Paul - your post is illogical!Like I said...

Mr. Balolia has demonstrated on at least one other forum that he has little patience for those who do not "appreciate" his company's products and services.
And ditto this...

Grizzly vs Delta vs Powermatic vs Old Iron is one of those "sure fire" thread topics -- just add kerosene. It's bad enough when members have a personal stake via purchasing a particluar brand, but IMHO, it just provides more tinder when a member OWNS one of the brands.

And finally...

Really, tit-for-tat postings are rather unbecoming, so you can go ahead and have the last word on this particular subject.Shiraz... seems like you've managed to "have the last word", not Paul.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank - actually I was thinking and talking about stationary machinery.
Sorry Shiraz, I was unaware that Grizzly only sold stationary machinery. But, I am pretty sure that, although none of my stationary machines have anything in the way of recent inovations, that I have read about recent inovations to such machines.

[Mike Cutler]

Yo' guys.
There is alot of good info in this thread. We need to stay closer to the original subject, or risk having this thread removed, and that would be a shame on many levels.
Sorry for playing the "Wet Blanket".

[Paul B. Cresti]

Shiraz,
Obviously this post has gone off topic just a wee bit :) and I am not going to win and arguements with someone like you, being the President of a company and all.

The orginal post was somone's opinion on a test done by someone else thats all. You felt the need to enter into this arena "defend" your company and then give a little preview of your upcoming products. I have made many coments about other companies as have many others on this board, I have never seen any other presidents post other than you. They respect this site as a public forum not a place for companies to get involved.

You made a comment about no innovations, lets be realistic have you even notice where the woodworking industry has gone? CNC, point to point and now EUROPEAN manufacturers being more prevalent here in the USA. Those companies Minimax, SCM & Felder are all made in there respective countries and represented here by that same company and they ain't cheap knock offs either. THEY design them and THEY build them.

Tit for tat, I guess so but in the end you win either way. You got out what you wanted (new machines on the way...look at me..) and that was what you wanted to do. If you can honestly say that you entered this site just the other day for the first time, after "lurking around" for awhile, with the sole intention of informing the masses without any financial gain for your company, then I apologize.

[Keith Foster]

Paul,
I disagree with your assessment. The original post was "disguised" as an opinion on a test, but in reality it was an attempt to override the test results to favor a machine that did not "win". The very title of the post indicates Dev's dislike of Grizzly products. Furthermore, his creation of evidence to support his opinion was a blatant attempt to sway the audience into believing the test was rigged. While the methods used by the tester could very well be described as unscientific, the test measurements were applied across the board. All of the machines were tested in the same manner, therefore the results derived from the test are quantitative if not qualitative.

Furthermore, an attempt to defend ones company from innuendo and half truths is not a reason to chastise the company for posting on a public forum. By your standards the Creek should be off limits to manufacturers and importers. That's sad, because we as a collective whole can provide any company that wishes to listen with valuable insight into the things we want and would like to see on future products.

<O:pI'm disappointed that SMC, Minmax, Felder have elected not to entertain input by the actual users of their products. Perhaps if they were to also post on the Creek we could give constructive criticism of their line to ensure future renovations meet the needs of those who actual use the products. <O:p

[Paul B. Cresti]

Keith,
Yes you are correct that whatever test was used (and I am not about to discuss its validity) at least it was used the same across the boards. The orginal poster does not "seem" to like the company's product :) but he does not represent anyone but himself. It was his opinion whether you agree with it or not. Other companies like MiniMax & Felder have their own websites/forums. I can not say for sure if they financially sponsor (at least I think they do?) them but members on those forums speak directly about those products and at times the companies themselves will post. The important difference is when you enter the forum you already know why you are there, it says so right in the forum name. My real point here is let us "normal guys" talk about tools just because it is fun and what we like to do.

[Keith Foster]

Fair enough. One of the reasons why I have "tried" not to post in this thread (and I'm not doing a very good job), is because I own several Grizzly tools and my opinion is and will be biased. After all, no one would want to admit the machine they spent their hard earned money on was anything less than perfect. Me included.

BTW, don't bother reading between the lines - From a hobbyist perspective I am very pleased with the products I own. :D <O:p

[Dev Emch]

Paul,
I disagree with your assessment. The original post was "disguised" as an opinion on a test, but in reality it was an attempt to override the test results to favor a machine that did not "win". The very title of the post indicates Dev's dislike of Grizzly products. Furthermore, his creation of evidence to support his opinion was a blatant attempt to sway the audience into believing the test was rigged. While the methods used by the tester could very well be described as unscientific, the test measurements were applied across the board. All of the machines were tested in the same manner, therefore the results derived from the test are quantitative if not qualitative.

Furthermore, an attempt to defend ones company from innuendo and half truths is not a reason to chastise the company for posting on a public forum. By your standards the Creek should be off limits to manufacturers and importers. That's sad, because we as a collective whole can provide any company that wishes to listen with valuable insight into the things we want and would like to see on future products.

Keith, this comment is not only incorrect, its a low blow. In your own defense of Grizzly, you have failed to read the issues I have with the test and its test methods. Others with a background in standards, measurement and scientific method have awknowledged these issues as well. And my biggest fear is that new commers to the art are inclined to view the tests as absolute. To use the words Shiraz himself used, GOSPHEL. What evidence did I create to support my position? And what was my position? I felt that the DJ had not been treated fairly because its INNOVATIVE design was just glanced over. The Grizzly looks more like an older Poitras or General 480 than a new machine to me. The reason the general looks like a poitras is that general bought poitras. Why does the grizz look like a general?

What I would like to know is where are the grizzly machines engineered? I know where Felder is engineerd, made and sold. And the felder offices, both of them, are run and managed by the mother ship. When I call them to find out whats going on sale, they have to call Austria.

And Grizzly does sell non-staionary tools. Who said they only sell stationary tools? Go check them out!

And I do have to agree with innovation. What has Grizzly listed as unique innovations of late? What has Felder done? What has Martin done? What has Hofmann done?

Felder was the originator of the combination machine and has re-engineered many versions of it over the years. Just looking at their historical timeline is an interesting aside. As it stands, Felder has been more copied by others than it has copied from others.

Martin just won a trade show excellence award in the recent major show at Anaheim. The one prior to vegas. They introduced a radical new planer. This machine is nothing short of super trick in what it can do. There are several new twists on using a planer as a moulder as well as features for using it within the plastics industry. They also designed a new mini moulder that can perform the moulder function for smaller shops that cannot justify the costs of going to say a wynig or wadkin type moulder. This is geared for the custom cabinet shop and not a mass production moulding and flooring mill.

And Hofmann has come up with the vision shaper. I have mistakingly refered to the vision in prior posts as the prisim. Sorry about that. Its called the Vision. This is the most radical new idea in shapers in many years. Its the only shaper that can also function as a table saw because its spindle can tilt down to a horizontal position.

Hofmann also came up with the trickest sliding table I have come across. The table can fold down out the way when not needed. When needed, it flips up and locks into position and functions as a fixed outfeed table. Or I can raise and lower the surface height of this table. Lift it above the main table and then release the table locks. Here, I can slide the slider **OVER** the main table such that it flies over the main table. A simple crank lifts or lowers the sliding table.

Hofmann also pioneered the use of the HSK 80 quick change spindle technology borrowed from the metalworking industry for super fast and super accurate spindle swap outs. But had they just copied this idea, the user would then be required to crawl under the shaper to lock the spindle cam lock system. So to make things reasonable, they had to re-design the cam lock system so that it works from above and create a new mini standard for the HSK world. Note I am not talking about HSK 63 tooling here. THis is HSK 80 tooling and its a different animal.

And the new wares brought to the market by the likes of Festool have to be considered here. Festool may not be a traditional stationary tool but its wares can complete with the output of stationary tools. They are changing the way folks do things in a big way. And if I had to give up my heavy machines and go to a lighter, easy to move solution, I would have to seriously consider going to Festool. Their solution is nothing short of genious in that a fellow in an apartment can still do woodworking in a tiny bedroom. You cannot say that about my martin table saw or porter jointer. Heck, these two machines would probably cause the floor to collapse.

And who could forget Aigner? Aigner has come up with a whole boat load of products designed to improve both the use and saftey of the shaper. The Aigner front face fence system is nothing short of genious. For almost 100 years, woodworkers were expected to build their own fences for shapers. That is why you often find oliver and porter and yates shapers with no fences at auctions. Different applications needed slight variations so it was easier and more prudent to build an application specific fence system. But that all changed with the Aigner. The Aigner is a camellian that can adapt itself to almost any application within minutes with no heavy lifting or serious work. You just move, flip, adjust and tighen. Done. And its safe. No longer do I need to worry about small panels being sucked into the hungry mouth of my panel raiser bit and thrown across the shop or into the dust collection system. And its design works wonders on very small items that can be turned into toothpicks if your not paying attention.

So there has been plenty of innovation of late. It just hasnt come from Grizzly sorry to say. But in all fairness to Grizzly, if they dont have any design engineers on staff, why should they be held accountable for innovation? They are more of an import and sales company than one who designs, builds and sells machines. Or am I wrong here....

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks Dev, I was fairly certain that I had read about recent inovations to stationary machines. Now, I certainly have. And, your point about Festool's inovations alowing them to "play" in the same "game" as some stationary machines is well stated.

Because Shiraz, stated that he had only been talking about stationary machines when he said there had been very few inovations, the implication to me was that Grizzly only imported and sold stationary machines.

[Bill Simmeth]

I hadn't closely read Shiraz's post but Frank's wonderment about Shiraz's comments on innovation sparked my curiosity to go back and read it fully. WOW! I can't believe the head of one of the larger tool companies would actually view the industry this way...
...but the point is that a table saw is a table saw.How incredibly myopic! It certainly makes me take Steve Gass' claims a little more seriously. And to Dino and Mr Festool (whoever he is) I say go boys go!

[Mike Cutler]

So lads, we've moved on to a discussion about innovation. eh..

Well I've got a few thoughts about that subject.
There is innovation for the sake of increasing existing sales, ie I make something and add a small twist to make my widget more appealing than you widget.

There is innovation for the sake of increasing market share, ie.. I develop something that has proprietery consumable parts, and tools that are only available from me.

Then there is innovation for the sake of innovation, in other words, the next logical progression in an evolutionary flowpath. I classify the multi tool machines in this category. Jointers, planers, tablesaws, and sliding tablesaws are nothing new, combining them into a single package is relatively new.

The "american" style machines were based on a concept philosophy that there was unlimited space surrounding them in a factory/industrial type enviorment. This, in my opinion is diminishing.

When we look at the members of the board here that actually derive their living from woodworking. many of them are in smaller spaces(converted garages) to minimize overhead. They are, by in large, working alone. This requires that the flow path for work has to be minmized, and be made efficient, and the tasks be able to performed "Safely" by one person. What does the slider on a tablesaw actually do?To me it eliminates the need for an additional person on the oufeed side of the TS. There is no argument that it is safer, and probably more accurate, but two guys/gals, that know what they are doing, can process material pretty darn fast on a convential "american" style cabinet saw. The same holds true for the planer. As they used to say at the milling shop I worked at a zillion years ago." Saving steps, saves time, saving time saves money". For these folks that have their own owner operated businesses, it makes sense to invest in a big dollar euro style comination machine. It's just time economics.
The upside to this innovation is that the technology of innovation begins to trickle down to the consumer/prosumer level, and everone gets to benefit.
Will these machines be copied and fabricated at plants in the Far East.Most assuredly so. Will they be carried by MSC, Harbor Freight,Grizzly, Tool King, Utterguys, etc? Absolutely, if they want to stay in business. Is this a bad thing? To me, no it isn't because it will bring the technologies and features of these types of machines to a level that is affordable to a wider range of woodworkers. The scale of the machines will also diminish due to the physical space limitations that a lot of people are faced with. In the end it gives us more options, and choices.

And how much innovation is actually "refinement"? Case in point, Dino's edge guide systems. Edge guides have existed in one form or another for a long time. It cost about $5 bucks to make one for a circular saw, but Dino's systems refine it to a point of universal compatability, extends the life of the accuracy,and once again, allows a single person to be able to process material cheaper, faster , safer ,and alone. I'm sure that Dino has had to fight a patent infringement suit once or twice in his time. For the record I do not own any products by Dino, and I have never seen or used them. Strictly an objective viewpoint.

I believe the true innovation will come when the blade is no longer part of a tablesaw, and this is not far off in my opinion.
The advent of CNC controlled routers systems, ie Shop Bot will become more universally applied, and incorporated into small production operation, ie owner operated shops.
I have access to machnes that can cut 2" thick plate steel with high pressure water and sand. When does this come to woodworking? And what about laser technology?

I'm not sure why I launched into this, but here it is.

[Burt Waddell]

Mike,

We are splitting hairs when we try to distinguish between refinement and innovation. Call it what ever you like, but I take my hat off to Dino for all that he has accomplished in giving us a more accurate, easier, safer and overall better way to do woodworking. I am in the process of totally integrating it into my shop. I used his system to do the major cutting for a recent job and was amazed at how much easier it was. I've used almost everything out there and Dino's is on the top of the stack. Also If you look at bottom line cost, it is the cheapest thing on the market. That is a nice place to have a tool - the cheapest to buy, easiest to use, the safest, and it just happens to do the best job. Thanks Dino!!

Burt

[Dev Emch]

Hmmmm, Dino..... I forgot about his adventures in ventures. Now to find his website again..... need to re-review his stuff for a current project I am on. That may be the cat's meow I am looking for.

[Mike Cutler]

Burt.

I was in no way at all trying to criticize Dino, or the edge guide system that he invented. Quite the opposite actually.
Dino took the utilitarian concept of an edge guide, which everyone has had to make from time to time to suit a single purpose, and had the foresight to expand this to an entire working system, that is adaptable, fast, accurate, repeatable, safe, and portable.and most importantly works with a wide range of circular saws and routers. His edge guides are even compatable with the Micro Fence router jig system.

My purpose in stating that I did not own one of these systems was to remove any doubt of bias from the post, and hopefully instill objectivity, not to degrade the value of Dino's product.

[John Renzetti]

Hi Dev, Glad you mentioned Aigner. I have a number of their products. They are great and every year they seem to come up with something new that makes woodworking safer. I have the Finger joint fence plates on my shaper. I can claim to have something that also comes with a Martin T-26.

Keith, There is a 1550 member Felder owners group on yahoo that I run. Lots of great discussions about the machines by owners. A lot of ideas for changes and improvements have come from owners there and have been adapted by Felder. Minimax has a similar group as does Rojek and Robland. Laguna also has one run from their server as part of their website. You should go to one of the big industrial machinery shows like the recent show in Vegas and the upcoming IWF in Atlanta in August 2006. You will be amazed at the innovations out there in all types of machinery.

take care,
John

[JayStPeter]

Hey Dev,

I'm really not pushing Grizzly here (really I wish someone else made a version so it would take the brand away). Just wondering if you've ever seen this 8" jointer. I'm not sure if it's wedge bed, parallelogram or something else. Find item G9859Z on Grizzly.com. Grizzly is just the only one I know of with an 8" version. There are a few places offering the 12"+ versions.

Jay

[Ed Bamba]

Jay,
I was looking at that jointer and also wondered if it was a parallelogram or not. Here's is what it says about the bed in the "More Info" link "4 cam adjustment on each table provides perfect alignment". I'm not an expert by any means re. jointers so maybe someone here will chime in on it; maybe even Shiraz.
Ed

[Keith Foster]

Keith, There is a 1550 member Felder owners group on yahoo that I run. Lots of great discussions about the machines by owners. A lot of ideas for changes and improvements have come from owners there and have been adapted by Felder. Minimax has a similar group as does Rojek and Robland. Laguna also has one run from their server as part of their website.

Thanks John,
Those are sites I will visit. My comment was in regard to Paul's preference that manufacturers and importers not post on Sawmill Creek. I understand his point and can see validity in his position.

From my perspective, the value of having the CEO's or other authorized representatives contribute to threads outweighs my concerns over Paul's objections. It's just a different way of looking at the value. Neither position is right OR wrong. Just different takes on the matter. Personally, I like having PapaGrizzly's ear. I've used that to my advantage several times. :D

[Andy Hoyt]

I apologize to all for my part in keeping this thread alive; but my guess is that I'm like many others here who are conflicted as to the pros and cons of manufacturers posting and contributing here. I wholeheartedly agree with both sides of the discussion.

So.... the notion just occured to me that we already have a mechanism in place for manufacturer types to post, hype, discuss, sell, schmooze, or whatever. It's called - get this - "The Manufacturers Forum".

If my recollection serves me, those mfgs. pay a stipend to SMC for their forum.

So Shiraz - if you really are the magnaminous wonderful sole that you purport to be. I suggest you contact our admin staff and pony up.

[lou sansone]

I apologize to all for my part in keeping this thread alive; but my guess is that I'm like many others here who are conflicted as to the pros and cons of manufacturers posting and contributing here. I wholeheartedly agree with both sides of the discussion.

So.... the notion just occured to me that we already have a mechanism in place for manufacturer types to post, hype, discuss, sell, schmooze, or whatever. It's called - get this - "The Manufacturers Forum".

If my recollection serves me, those mfgs. pay a stipend to SMC for their forum.

So Shiraz - if you really are the magnaminous wonderful sole that you purport to be. I suggest you contact our admin staff and pony up.

I agree ...
lou

[lloyd morris]

quote=Andy Hoyt]I apologize to all for my part in keeping this thread alive; but my guess is that I'm like many others here who are conflicted as to the pros and cons of manufacturers posting and contributing here. I wholeheartedly agree with both sides of the discussion.
So.... the notion just occurred to me that we already have a mechanism in place for manufacturer types to post, hype, discuss, sell, schmooze, or whatever. It's called - get this - "The Manufacturers Forum".

If my recollection serves me, those mfgs. pay a stipend to SMC for their forum.

So Shiraz - if you really are the magnanimous wonderful sole that you purport to be. I suggest you contact our admin staff and pony up."

"I agree,

lou[/quote]"

Like Andy, I also apologize for keeping this thread alive especially if someone is offended by where it is going. I have mixed feelings about manufacturers posting because sometimes due to pride in their product (which I can understand) or shameless promoting of their products (which IMHO does not have a place on the general forums) it is easy to get carried away from the topic at hand.

Also, I do not own any Grizzly products nor have I ever met Mr. Balolia. I have a shop full of Delta X5 tools which I am seriously thinking about upgrading with a Combo and larger Bandsaw. In the course of searching for upgrades to my shop and before I decided upon a Combo machine (which Grizzly does not carry) I came across Grizzly tools on another forum. Their Muncy PA warehouse is located about 50 miles from where I grew up and I also stopped by to check them out a few weeks ago. In addition, I sent Shiraz Balolia several e-mails with questions about his products which he always answered promptly, directly and somewhat to my surprise without pushing his products.

I am not sure about Shiraz Balolia being a "magnanimous wonderful soul" or what place comments like that have here. I agree if he posts regularly he should support SMC in the Manufactures Forum. I also think we benefit from his input, perspective, knowledge and opinions on this fourm as well. I know personally several people who have resolved issues, problems and concerns about Grizzly products with one e-mail to him.

From my point of view he is welcome here. I believe some of the comments about him and Grizzly seem personal and pretty harsh and would put most of us on the defensive. Also if I felt he was pushing his products beyond a reasonable response to a question or abusing the forum for his own use I would be the first to call him on that issue.

Just my two cents.

lloyd morris